Single vs. Double; Original vs. CE Block

[rubbinisracing]

In my search to buy a copo camaro and/or chevelle a few decisions need to be made. I would like you guys & gals to weigh in on a few subjects for me so I can properly decide.

The reason for your opinion will be most helpful if you would care to share that as well.

Collectibility: Double vs. Single (don't confuse this with value) Looking for known numbers of each built and the wide spread desirabilty to collectors.

Dollar deduction for the following flaws:

Documentation-No build sheet, POP or Original Window Sticker but all stamps, castings and date are correct.

CE Block-Car currently has CE block with repair order for replacement and Buildsheet or other docs. showing car was originally a copo.

CE Block-no repair order for warranty replacement, could have come from another car or model.

Unstamped Block-Car has unstamped block for whatever reason but it is 512 and docs support that it is a copo.

Trans doesn,t match-

So on and so on!

Thanks in advance!

[ANDY M]

Howard, no offense, but I don't think anyone can answer this. Way too many variables.
Buy what you like, because you like it. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
Andy

[rubbinisracing]

All these great minds and nothing to say?

Maybe the way the questions were posed was the problem! I asked for your opinions using dollar amounts to quantify your response and keep away from other non specific adjectives.

I know this is a touchy subject because there's a lot of copo owners on this site. So if you respond, keep that in mind.

I'll give you my opinion from where I'm standing TODAY!

Hope you give me yours, or I'll be forced to answer my own post. Nothing learned there!

I don't know what the top dollar I'd pay for the car is. With that said here it goes.

To me the Yenko name is a premium and is much better known than any other Dealer or even "copo". The casual car guy knows its special, he may not know what for, but he is aware it's unique. So around a 50K premium is what I'd pay for Yenko prep and documentation for otherwise 2 equal cars.

CE block with warranty documentation- 40-60K deduction. This could be even greater depending on the number of cars with original block.

CE block with no documentation- 100K deduction. Could be from any car or model

Bare Stamp pad but correct casting#- This is tough. What you got here is a car that was once a copo and that's it IMO. I'd rather have a documented SS/RS L78 car. 150K+ deduction.

Automatic Transmission- Remenber this is my opinion and I wouldn't buy an A/T copo car. 50K deduction. You may see it differently.

Correct Trans but missing correct VIN-25K deduction

Rear End type correct but date code wrong - 10-15K deduction

I know there's a thousand combinations and there are also pluses for desireable options and colors. I just used the assumption that all other components were correct. This is simialr to the way the N.A.D.A. book does it.

Now I've been brave and walked to the top of the hill for all to shoot at. Now lets hear from you!

That wasn't so hard. Maybe its because I don't even own a copo!

[Belair62]

You are dealing with a low production handful of cars...I don't think you can place deductions on anything...if the one that comes up for sale is not what you want at the price offered don't buy it..wait for the next one. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[GTO_DON]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gifTHANKS BOB

[csx289]

I'd have to agree - some cars just "are what they are", and you take them warts and all. No secret formula or Kelley Blue Book deduction chart. Case in point - original Comp Cobras , like CSX2128 that sold at Russo and Steele for $2 mil and change. Rebodied, not original motor or trans, BUT unquestionably THE car and good paperwork. Using a formula would tell you the car would be worth $4 mil if it had all original panels and drive train? Nah, it would still be $2 mil! Maybe a little more, BUT, you get the point.

IMHO, sometimes it seems as if we can't see the forest because of the trees these days. Give me a real car, with real paperwork and a great history any day over a "iffy" car with light paper and a "numbers matching" motor. I've bought a lot of great cars that the owner flat out told me were NOM , and I liked the cars so much it just didn't bother me.

What bothers me are "stampers", "restoration motors", "warranty blocks" or whatever the dishonest people are calling them these days. Again, it "is what it is" - I will take a real car that hurt its motor and don't see it as a 50% deduct. Heck, Hemi and RAIV cars have always been about 10% less when they are NOM, correct? Most likely because we all know the damn things didn't hold together if they were driven like they were supposed to be! LOL

Just my humble opinion.

Colin

[jfkheat]

I don't own a COPO and probably never will but I think your deductions are a bit high. I'm going to base the following on a price of $250K for a nice original drivetrain Yenko. In theory, if you found a real COPO from Joe Blow Chevy (-50K) with a decked block (-150K), wrong date auto trans (-75K) and wrong rearend (-10K), you would expect the seller to pay you about $30K to $40K to take the car. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif You may want to study the Yenko and Copo market before you buy a car. Just my opinion.
James

[mockingbird812]

It is human nature to try and place a process on something like this. Most of industry is very process oriented these days. Some things are process-able and some aren't. This wld be a tuff one - but if it weren't tuff it wouldn't be worth doing. There are indeed a ton of variables some of which are intangibles. But, I laud you for attempting it. Could be fun, and if nothing else gives you a reference point to perhaps compare one car to another whether you are buying or selling or just determining value. One thing I'll suggest is to not place a discrete $dollare$ figure for deductions which will be outdated the week after next, but use %percentages%.

That said, one of my favorite value-added things that I look for in a car is the story it tells. All of these cars have a story, some will never be known some are waiting to be unearthed. I like the thrill of the hunt to go back as far as I can on my car and find something the previous fellow didn't. It can be anything from the sexy, hi profile i.e owned by a celebrity or famous drag racer, to the regular joe stuff, but typical of how these beasts were used in the day.

Good luck!

Sam

[Belair62]

I think it would be easier to write down what you want ..engine,docs,trans,color,etc....and when that one comes up for sale at whatever price...decide if you are comfortable with that price...negotiate and get it.

[Jeff H]

It sounds like you are questioning whether you want an all original, documented COPO vs one that isn't. It also depends on your financial situation. If I wanted a COPO car for a collection, it would have to be a documented, numbers matching car. The only questions would be color, transmission and extra options. From there it gets tough between a documented car with non original engine or trans vs a supposed numbers matching car with no documents. There is so much restamping and fake documents going around now that I would have to take it slowly to make sure everything looks legit. I wouldn't even want to begin to put prices and deduction on certain combinations since that is a personal thing. As for the transmission, I think you'll be very surprised how a TH400 in a COPO runs so that wouldn't be a value deduction at all to me. Sleeper = 427, dog dish hubcaps, auto on the column, no fancy options. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Alss]

I bought my COPO Chevelle last July..lots of paper documentation a CE block,#'s matching trans and rear. I am actually realieved that it is a CE block..takes some pressure off the "matching" numbers game. The car is as real as they get and was raced hard. I was more pressed to find a car with paperwork than one with a "original numbers matching" motor.With all the re-stamping going on, and the thieves are getting good at it a car may appear to be real but could be a good fake/re-stamp.No one can argue with good original factory paperwork.

ALbert

[Chevy454]

I'm curious about the *bias* regarding auto vs. manual cars? The autos are rarer, and will put a whoopin' on the stick cars, but some folks are hung up on shifting for themselves...what gives?

BTW: good topic, Howard...http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Jeff H]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm curious about the *bias* regarding auto vs. manual cars? The autos are rarer, and will put a whoopin' on the stick cars, but some folks are hung up on shifting for themselves...what gives?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad you said it and not me! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Belair62]

I have both auto and manual cars...that CX trans is something else...but sticks are still cooler http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

I guess it all depends on how you look at it..I mean look at Chrysler..couldn't have gotten more factory sponsored race cars in the '60's-70's and they prefered to stick a lot of TorqueFlite (sp?) 727's in their cars..I think a lot of Chevy people are hung up on manuals, but when looking at the other makes, it isn't as big of a deal..When you guys get so old (I'm only 34) that you can't push in the clutch anymore..what are you gonna drive if you want to drive a musclecar?

[SamLBInj]

I would consider documentation and history the most critical factor. There is too many scum bags out there where you could almost build any car you wanted and get a POP, Trim Tag, and build sheet, all numbers matching to boot. Without the history you are not a 100% sure what you are winding up with. Thats why real known cars are worth so much and if they have all the original parts you got one of only a handful of what are left. These cars were purchased with one thing in mind, racing, and if you do that right the parts dont last long. Me personally, Id rather find one than buy one but that aint very easy nowadays, but im still looking... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[rubbinisracing]

Thanks for your opinions!

Let me respond to a few points made.

1. I may have confused some of you by using the word "deduction", what I meant but didn't effectively communicate is this. A 50k deduction means the same as I'd pay 50k more for same car with numbers matching engine (etc) its just semantics.

2. I never set a top price for the car. Don't know what that would be. Its your math not mine! 250K for a numbers matching 4 spd yenko......Sign me up!

3. This a hobby to me, but I try to apply some business acumen along the way. Let me give you an example.

10-12 weeks ago I was offered a 1967 L88 Corvette Convertible for 750K. The car was extensively documented, numbers, the whole thing. I wasn't prepared to make a decision while on the phone because I hadn't done my homework. There was a lot to think about.....Should I buy this car or buy multiple cars with the same money. I could get 5 - 67 Corvette Vert 427-435 cars for the same money or any number of other combinations. I could take the same money and buy a small office building and earn 75K on a 10 cap plus get appreciation of 7% a year. Turnaround and take the 75k and buy new muscle with it.
These are the kinds of questions you need to have already answered before you get the call. I need to have done this for every car I want to collect plus others that are on the fringe of what I'm currently looking for. When a high value limited production car becomes available and you get word of it, 4-8 hrs has usually passed and a dozen or so potential buyers have been contacted. You probably got 30 mins tops. When I called back, the car was sold.
If you haven't done this before how do you decide when to quit bidding or to tella guy that's too rich for you? What do you do if 2 like cars are at an auction that meet your criteria? What do you negotiate with?
"Sucess is when preperation meets opportunity"

4.Colin, how many guys never got in on the bidding because a particular car wasn't correct. We'll never know, nor will we ever know what that car would have brought if it had appealed to more buyers. It only takes 2 guys wanting the same thing for it to get interesting. Is a shortstop worth 25 mil, must be, somebody paid him!
Your right about great paperwork over iffy, but why do you have to choose between one or the other. Get it all!

5. Sam, your right, percentages would work better but I would have to set a base to work from. I'm not sure where that would be, but I'm open to suggestions.
I seen the write up on this site about your Charger and it was wonderful. It opened my eyes to a facet of collecting I hadn't considered. I've incorporated it to my search for cars. Thanks!

6. Jeff, good job of reading between the lines! I already knew what I'm looking for, but wanted to see if I was overlooking something.
Give me a fully documented Yenko with original drive train!

7. Al, first things first. What a good looking Chevelle you had in Nashville. Tried to come by and introduce myself but with the rain I kept missing you.
Sounds like you got the copo you wanted. Good luck on the resto.

8. 4 Spds.- A.) Personal preference for 4 speeds...just like to work the shifter.....makes me feel young. B.)I'm never gonna get on a high dollar numbers car real hard. I save that for my clone or street rod. Blow it up and fix it.... no tears shed! C.)The biggest reason - Colin feel free to weigh in.... If I need to sell a car(s) quickly to raise cash I can get out in 24 hours. A/T's take a lot longer. Case in point - LMC had a A/T Yenko on their site for 4 weeks before it sold, wouldn't have made it to the web if it had been a 4 spd,

9. Sam in NJ, Right On and keep Jammin!

I really want to thank you guys for the post. Keep the cards and letters coming!

[SamLBInj]

Hey Howard,
Some good points you made.
One thing you may be overlooking is the restoration end,are you strictly looking for #1 cars? For your 750K you could open a pretty nice shop, hire some pretty talented people, ie: welder, painter, engine builder, ect. and start looking for deals on #3 and #4 type cars and doing the resto yourself and this would basically give you a much higher return on your money. As long as you got the good documentation eventially any car you find will wind up a high dollar #1 if you do it right. Maybe im a little off track but thats how I would approach it. Then if the Market ever takes a down turn your not stuck holding the bag on Million dollar hemi's and 750K vettes that youll be lucky enough to get back 60% on your money. It may be a hobby but with million dollar cars its also business. Isnt there a place down there in Texas where people are members of a private track where they can keep and run their cars? Theres the future, a high quality resto shop, huge garages, and a track...where do I sign up? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Charley Lillard]

At 750K for a 67 L88 Roadster I have to assume it is a rebody......

In my opinion, if you are looking to make money in cars, and have to worry that you might lose your investment, you aren't in it for the right reasons..While musclecars are "hot" right now, and all the investing magazines, WSJ , etc are touting them they are only "liquid" within certain circles. Like it or not people with means who are not into them, juts view them as old cars. How many musclecars does Buffet, Gates, Turner (Ted), etc own? "Traditional" investments..ie: realestate, securities, stocks etc. will always be where the "masses" and savy investors put their money, and like everything else this market will cool and "investors" will loose. Buy cars because you like the look, the feel, or the mystique..NOT because of the return on the dollar.

[COPO]

Sam, I think there are very few cars that can be purchased in #3 and #4 condition, concours restored and then sold for a higher price than what is in the car. Parts and labor to restore a car to that level can easily exceed $50K and approach $100K plus the original cost of the car. Of course for a select few ultra rare cars the numbers can work.

I personally am not in the hobby for the money, but I can tell you first hand restoring a car to #1 condition is VERY expensive even if the labor is free.

[TimG]

To me paperwork is the most important factor. True GM paperwork is still difficult to duplicate, long after we are gone they'll be stamping "restoration " motors, but the paperwork will determine the true heritage of a vehicle. Today, I heard about a very desirable '67 Corvette roadster, 435, sidepipes, original bolt on's and rare color. It is a vehicle that has a proven ownership history and original engine, but no paperwork. I'd rather a lesser vehicle with paperwork.

[rubbinisracing]

Sam,
I'm considering opening some type of Classic Car Sales/Parts Resto Shop at some future date due to the lack of available services in my area. But you'd tie up a considerable amount of capital trying to make a go of it with you being the primary customer.
I do think that with a store front and some ready cash you would find some good opportunities to help supplement your income and to keep your people busy through a slow patch.

Sam heres the link to the place I believe your referring to: http://www.motorsportranch.com/ . My wife and I are considering a 6 or 8 car garage house now with trackside view. The whole first floor is garage area with doors on opposite sides....a true drive in/drive out experience. The second floor is usually living space with a balcony area to watch the action. A loft is commonly done on top of the living area for better view. The track is an asphalt paved road course booked by car clubs and the like with certain days reserved for residents. Mainly Porches, Vipers, Italian Sports cars and SCCA type cars on it. There is some talk of adding another type of track later, not sure if that would be circle or straight line.

Greg,
I think your right about other investments offering better returns for the long haul. But most of the guys saying it's for investment purposes are just trying to justify spending so much money on old cars to their friends, wife and themselves. I don't think their is a wrong or right reason to collect and/or restore cars, it's a personal choice. Remember that the reason we give for doing something, somtimes has little relation to our true purpose.
But I know one thing for sure. For me its sure cheaper than fishing or hunting. Those have been some of the most expensive meals I've ever had!

COPO,
I believe your right,but you gotta have hope and keep looking.

TimG,
Ditto!

[Belair62]

[ QUOTE ]
But most of the guys saying it's for investment purposes are just trying to justify spending so much money on old cars to their friends, wife and themselves

[/ QUOTE ]

Shhhhhhhh!!!

[P.J.]

I could put a price on the resto of my 70 L78 with all the many hours of tender loving resto of every nut and bolt
to the factory build sheet. HoweverI did not restore this car because its worth 150k today I restored it because to me this car makes me feel good. When I drive the car it brings me back to when I was 18 and to me that is worth more than
money. And as far as Hunting and fishing being more expensive all I got to say is you are hunting and fishing in the wrong places
Suprss70

[scuncio]

I am definitely in this for the love of the cars, but my non-car-people friends think I am the mastermind investor when they see Barrett Jackson prices. I think most of us have been doing this for at least the past 10-15 years--I know I have--and there's no way I could have amassed the cars I have if I paid "market price" for them today. I'd have a hard time paying for even one!

[Belair62]

Ditto Tony...

[LS6 RAT]

I'm also a believer in factory and dealership paperwork to prove a cars provenance. When I bought my LS-6 car (from Charlie) the paperwork was of paramount importance and exterior and interior color combo was secondary. I think as we all do, that rarity is of upmost importance (drivetrain anyway) and having undisputed proof makes it that much sweeter!