Crate motor vs. rebuilding DZ 302...?

[musclecarjohn]

I broke a cam in my DZ 302 and while I haven't yanked it out yet,many other problems exsist as can be expected with any engine mishap.The motor spins over freely and to listen to it,it sounds like there isn't anything wrong at all.There are small pin-holes near the top of the pan where it appears small bits of metal tried to sneak down around the windage tray.The distributor is jammed in the block (broken cam)and when i drained the oil,I got about a gallon of water out first...never a good sign. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

The motor will come out next week.I am hearing 4-6 months by every engine builder I've spoken to...MINIMUM! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif
This car was just completely restored (paint,glass,chrome,interior,exterior,gas tank,every nut & bolt,etc.)and I have had exactly ZERO time to enjoy it unless you count sitting in it in my garage at night. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

I wanted to post my two options to see what everyone thinks:

Option 1) Buy the nastiest crate motor available (Bill Mitchell 454ci. small block (600+ hp!)and bag the 302 for now and re-build at my leisure.This would get me back behind the wheel doing burnouts http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gifin a month or so.

Option 2) Send the 302 out for checking and possible repairs.Downside is this could take forever (a year? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif).

I just sold my '70 El Camino SS-454 so I have $$$ burning a hole in my pocket.It's not like I don't have other cars to drive and show but this one has quickly become my favorite. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

What would you do? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[markjohnson]

If you put that Bill Mitchell 454 CID small block in that car, you will forget all about that 302! Personally, I think I would opt for the 427 CID version. A little thicker cylinder walls and it's such a magic number to so many people. It's hard to believe but the 454 Bill Mitchell small block has the same bore and stroke as a 454 big block. He even had to come up with a special head gasket. Another great engine you should look into that's priced lower is the GM Performance Parts ZZ383. It makes 425 HP and 460 FT.LBS or torque. Granted, it won't tear your head off your shoulders like one of those Bill Mitchell motors will but you could save a little bit of money to spend elsewhere.

[Stuart Adams]

Sounds like you put alot into the restoration. If the goal of restoring it was to show it then put the 302 back in it, if it is for driving alot, save the motor(it has to come out anyway) and use it later. There are some GREAT crate motors these days. If performance is what you want, the 302 will dissapoint IMO compared to a great crate motor.Good Luck

[musclecarjohn]

I have considered the ZZ383 ($4700) which would certainly be cheaper.I know someone who put it in a '71 Camaro and is very happy with it.I'd have to convert the center bolt valve covers to perimeter and I don't think my LT-1 manifold will work with it either,will it?I just wonder how well these GM motors are put together compared to a specialty house like Mitchell's.The best of the best parts are in these motors.I am even considering the Motown 415 alloy head motor for around $8K.

Choices...choices. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[musclecarjohn]

[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like you put alot into the restoration. If the goal of restoring it was to show it then put the 302 back in it, if it is for driving alot, save the motor(it has to come out anyway) and use it later. There are some GREAT crate motors these days. If performance is what you want, the 302 will dissapoint IMO compared to a great crate motor.Good Luck

[/ QUOTE ]

Every engine builder I've spoken to makes me aware...within minutes of starting the conversation...that it would be much more cost-effective to buy a crate motor and you're right,the choices are endless.

I am torn though because the beauty of these cars is winding them out.We all know there is no torque or power below 4-grand.But from 4-8K,hold on to your hat! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif
On the other hand,most of these crate motors are all in by 5500rpm but I guess it doesn't matter if you've got 500 lb. ft. of torque by 4-grand! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

This car is built to drive not only on the street but occasionally at the track.And it will never will be sold! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

[Salvatore]

John, When you restored the car didn't you redo the motor? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gifI am hard pressed to believe that a good machine shop/engine builder can't get you running in a few weeks to a month. If the car is that nice, just rebuild. If you feel the need to go fast, Do what Darren did buy a 72 or whatever camaro that needs some TLC work with a BB for little money and go drag racing! No matching anything. I would keep the 02 in your car. JMO Sam

[musclecarjohn]

[ QUOTE ]
John, When you restored the car didn't you redo the motor? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gifI am hard pressed to believe that a good machine shop/engine builder can't get you running in a few weeks to a month. If the car is that nice, just rebuild. If you feel the need to go fast, Do what Darren did buy a 72 or whatever camaro that needs some TLC work with a BB for little money and go drag racing! No matching anything. I would keep the 02 in your car. JMO Sam

[/ QUOTE ]

Sam,

Bought the car used of course and the motor ran fine.Just checked the compression and everything was in specs.No leaks and didn't use any oil.Just added roller rockers (Comp Cams chrome-moly 1.5 ratio)and a Proform mechanical secondary 750 cfm race carb and only ran it for about 15 minutes in this configuration.About 6200rpm,it decided it didn't want to run anymore and exploded.I have revved this motor well in excess of 7-grand without any problems.

Shouldn't have happen at 6200,I'll tell you that. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

[Salvatore]

I agree it should not of blown. Maybe a bad cam from the factory? Might have a warranty issue there? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[Stuart Adams]

If that is the original motor, take it out if your driving it!!! You will blow it up again eventually doing 6-7 grand on the tac alot. You got a lead foot man, which is cool, but honestly it will blow up again from the sounds it. Not worth the risk IMO, because if hot rodding the car is what ya like (me too), then get a better/faster motor and drive it like you stole it. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[musclecarjohn]

[ QUOTE ]
If that is the original motor, take it out if your driving it!!! You will blow it up again eventually doing 6-7 grand on the tac alot. You got a lead foot man, which is cool, but honestly it will blow up again from the sounds it. Not worth the risk IMO, because if hot rodding the car is what ya like (me too), then get a better/faster motor and drive it like you stole it. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

A crate motor is starting to make more sense everyday,let me tell you.And since that $$$ is burning a hole in my pocket,picking up the phone and charging it to your card is TOO easy to do... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[Stuart Adams]

Good idea. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[musclecarjohn]

That's how I'm leaning... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Pacecarjeff]

Why does it have to be a crate motor?

Why not find a correct chevrolet block, and build a radical 383.
You could make it look "exactly stock" on the outside, and only you would know.

Use your manifolds, carb, and all the dressing.
Set your original block aside for when you need it.

That is what I would do.
A real Z/28 deserves a "real" engine.

I hate when I see new engines in old cars.
Just my opinion http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[musclecarjohn]

Jeff,

I have thought going the ZZ383 route.The crate motors I am looking at would look identical to what I have now only with new & improved internals.My intake,carb & exhaust,roller-cam,trick rods and crank on the inside.I'd paint the aluminum heads orange too. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

Period correct on the outside...downright nasty on the inside....that's the plan! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

[Pacecarjeff]

No one will mistake that for a 302. The pad is a different size,
the heads won't have the "humps" it will be obvious that it is a "new" engine.

It's your car, You can do whatever you want.
You need to be happy. Crate motors do come with warrenties.
But an era correct crate motor - no way.

Why not find a 1969 010 block (very comon), port your 202's use ARP's everywhere, HiPO pistons and rods, use rollers, and all HiPo internals.
But when you are done, you have a screemer all authentic "302"
Well it will really be a 383, but you don't have to admit.

With a crate motor it is not a Z/28 anymore.
The Z/28 was the 302 engine option.

I just really hate to see crate motors in authentic cars.

[Dave Rifkin]

When I had my 1968 SS 396 Camaro I bought a crate 461 from John Lingenfelter Racing. Came to my door with everything on it but the water pump plus I paid to have it dyno tuned. If you want to drive the car right now and don't want to risk damaging the original motor beyond repair; the crate motor is the way to go.

[musclecarjohn]

[ QUOTE ]
No one will mistake that for a 302. The pad is a different size,
the heads won't have the "humps" it will be obvious that it is a "new" engine.

It's your car, You can do whatever you want.
You need to be happy. Crate motors do come with warrenties.
But an era correct crate motor - no way.

Why not find a 1969 010 block (very comon), port your 202's use ARP's everywhere, HiPO pistons and rods, use rollers, and all HiPo internals.
But when you are done, you have a screemer all authentic "302"
Well it will really be a 383, but you don't have to admit.

With a crate motor it is not a Z/28 anymore.
The Z/28 was the 302 engine option.

I just really hate to see crate motors in authentic cars.

[/ QUOTE ]

All valid points indeed.

My biggest problem is time...time that I could be spending pounding the pavement. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gifI'm really not too concerned about the double-bump heads or the wrong engine pad because if you saw my car (think Trans-Am,1969),it's so far away from a stock-appearing '69 Z/28 it's not funny but as you said...it is my car and I must be happy with the engine too.

The logical thing would be to re-build this engine (or another block if this one isn't repairable)and that would all make sense if I lived in Minnesota and it was 20 below for the next 4 months...but I live in sunny California and all I want to do when I'm not at work is drive and play with my cars http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif.As I get older,I realize I won't be at this forever http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif so I want to enjoy my cars NOW and I mean tomorrow! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

Still torn...looking at the World Products site now. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[musclecarjohn]

[ QUOTE ]
When I had my 1968 SS 396 Camaro I bought a crate 461 from John Lingenfelter Racing. Came to my door with everything on it but the water pump plus I paid to have it dyno tuned. If you want to drive the car right now and don't want to risk damaging the original motor beyond repair; the crate motor is the way to go.

[/ QUOTE ]

Were you happy with the performance and what did that run you if you don't mind me asking? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[Dave Rifkin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When I had my 1968 SS 396 Camaro I bought a crate 461 from John Lingenfelter Racing. Came to my door with everything on it but the water pump plus I paid to have it dyno tuned. If you want to drive the car right now and don't want to risk damaging the original motor beyond repair; the crate motor is the way to go.

[/ QUOTE ]

Were you happy with the performance and what did that run you if you don't mind me asking? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thrilled with the performance. My mechanic said he never saw a big block that revved so freely. ( http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif). I never took it to the track but was told, if I could get it to hook up, it had the potential to run high 11's.

[musclecarjohn]

Well Lingenfelter certainly knew how to build horsepower.

I got some better news today by talking with a local racer who has a shop near my work.He has a full tube chassised '67 Fairlane 500 with a Pro Stock big block built by Bob Panella in it...runs high 7's with it.He uses a shop in Northern Ca that does great work and has a pretty fast turnaround time so if my block checks out ok,I would certainly like to build it rather than buy another engine.

I just gotta make time to yank the old one out now... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

[Salvatore]

Now you are thinking rite!

[JoeG]

Just Do it----- http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[musclecarjohn]

[ QUOTE ]
Just Do it----- http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

caveman said..."no z/28 worth damn without DZ 302"... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[SMGCO]

You can't go wrong with a good ( and warrantied ) crate engine. You will be years ahead in technology, durability and have a lot more power.

[markjohnson]

I know you seem mainly interested in a small block, but I've noticed that there happens to be a couple of brand new still-crated LS-7 454's on E-bay. Just ask anyone who's ever had one of these. They absolutely fly. A friend had one untouched in a '68 Camaro, Turbo 400, 12 bolt w/3.73's running 11.30's. Don't forget the old adage : Keep Your GM Car All GM.

[musclecarjohn]

[ QUOTE ]
I know you seem mainly interested in a small block, but I've noticed that there happens to be a couple of brand new still-crated LS-7 454's on E-bay. Just ask anyone who's ever had one of these. They absolutely fly. A friend had one untouched in a '68 Camaro, Turbo 400, 12 bolt w/3.73's running 11.30's. Don't forget the old adage : Keep Your GM Car All GM.

[/ QUOTE ]

Might be something I'd consider for my Chevelle but I don't think a BB would be keeping within the Trans-Am theme.

Hard decision,huh?

Build original 302 to keep the correct "feel" of the car,even with the shortcomings of the no-torque/high-rev motor.Over-build it and you expose a motor you may have to twist even harder to make any power.Where's the reliabilty in that? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

Buy killer crate motor with all the new,modern high-tech parts but is that going to make it a better car?Will it be a more complete car?Will it make me happy? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

The BEST part of driving this car is "winding-out" that little small block.To me,that's what makes a Z/28 a Z/28.
Granted,more torque sure would be nice too and you certainly can't beat cubic inches.

I am still torn but will come to a decision soon...as soon as next wknd when I pull the motor out and see what I have beneath the surface.

Thanks for everyone's input...I really do appreciate it. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

John

[Motion Camaro]

<font color="blue">You could always build the 302 a little mellower than the original .....

.... and still make 600+ HP when you 'wind it up'.

How, you say?? --&gt; Let me show ya. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif




http://www.bankspower.com/Twin-Turbo-images/TTurbo-frontleftquarte-lg.jpg

I have a 302 in the making for my Camaro, going twin turbo.
Probably get thAt done the end of next year. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif</font>

[musclecarjohn]

Wow Motion...that is outrageous! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

Looks awesome. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[kwhizz]

Charlie's already a graduate of that school ......and it's a good one...........Motion......Post pic's as you go......

Thanks
Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[68ys8030]

sounds to me like you broke a connecting rod and that took out the cam. I might be wrong... just a guess. rumor has it that balwin motion will be offering mail order motors real soon. that might be the way to go !! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif
they are going to tell all at SEMA from what i've heard.
steve

[COPO427]

What I would do and I know how rare the 302's are since I owned a '68 Z/28. I would sent the 302 out for a rebuild and when completed, set it aside. In the meantime, I'd have several options:
1. GM crate 383
2. GM crate ZZ4 with fast burn heads
3. GM 2006 427 small block vette engine (lots of extra cash)

and have fun with the Z/28 and not worrying about destroying the original 302. The value of the car will still be there. If you ever decide to sell the Z/28, then you swap in the 302. Done. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[musclecarjohn]

I did put the car up in the air today and removed the driveshaft but other than that,I didn't get much done.I'm thinking about running an aluminum one...any ideas?I moved out of a storage rental I had into my garage I had my El Camino in which I just sold. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

Anyway...long story short...many more magazines! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif I unloaded some good ones and you know how this slows the process down. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

Those holes on the side of the pan are starting to look a little "lower" on the pan than I previously first though.But to answer a previous question,I spun this motor over with the ignition and it sounded like it always did...spins freely,not bound.

I am leaning more towards a crate motor after listening to everyone here and giving it some thought.This would enable me to get on the road sooner with a hi-tech motor and I could bag the DZ for future attention.

That is starting to sound smart...even to me. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[Xplantdad]

That's the ticket John...have a blast! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[SuperNovaSS]

John,You should change your location to Foggy Monterey penninsula! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[markjohnson]

I wouldn't worry about an aluminum driveshaft. Sure, they look neat but the the cost per benefit is not very beneficial. They end up being so thick-walled to match the strength of .083 DOM steel tubing that it's just not worth it. Also the U-joint cups like to gall up in the weld yokes. Spend your money wisely elsewhere, like towards one of those brand new M-22 Muncies after the pain you're going to inflict upon your current M-21 with a new high HP/torque motor!

[musclecarjohn]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't worry about an aluminum driveshaft. Sure, they look neat but the the cost per benefit is not very beneficial. They end up being so thick-walled to match the strength of .083 DOM steel tubing that it's just not worth it. Also the U-joint cups like to gall up in the weld yokes. Spend your money wisely elsewhere, like towards one of those brand new M-22 Muncies after the pain you're going to inflict upon your current M-21 with a new high HP/torque motor!

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the advice on that one Mark,I'll have to do more research I guess.

Jason,

Hey,we got SOME sun in Marina yesterday! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[indyjps]

ever consider a 377 or an even larger big bore short stroke engine, it would rev like the 302. swap out the trans if its correct to the car or the crate motor may eat it up too.

[musclecarjohn]

[ QUOTE ]
ever consider a 377 or an even larger big bore short stroke engine, it would rev like the 302. swap out the trans if its correct to the car or the crate motor may eat it up too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have considered that route as well.I'm hoping my M-21 will be strong enough to withstand the wrath of the crate motor.I may even send it out to have it re-freshened.

[musclecarjohn]

Well guys,pulled the motor out today and it's basically toast.Broke two rods and the cam in several places.It had already been sleeved in the number 1 cylinder.No failure there though.The bottom of the cylinder walls got pretty chewed up and the crank journels are junk.

So much for building that motor,huh? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

My buddies and I are arguing whether to have a 302 built or just buy a high-hp 383 stroker.It would cost me the same either way.At this point,I'm thinking of just shelving the 302 idea for now and just picking up the phone.

383/550hp $6699 http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

What do you all think...again?

[Mr. T]

What's your Z's buildate?

http://www.camaros.net/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=3502&amp;sort=1&amp;cat=8&amp;page=1

[musclecarjohn]

[ QUOTE ]
What's your Z's buildate?

http://www.camaros.net/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=3502&amp;sort=1&amp;cat=8&amp;page=1

[/ QUOTE ]

Tony,
02D(5th wk/Feb) but motor is D179 (April 17).

That's why I'm not suicidal over it.

[musclecarjohn]

Motor decision has been made! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

I have ordered up a 383/550hp stroker with all the best parts:Forged crank &amp; rods,11.:1 forged pistons,mechanical solid roller cam,alloy heads,Victor Jr.,MSD,ARP,etc.New clutch,flywheel,starter,headers...new everything.Peak power @6500.Dyno run and completely broken-in and ready to rock! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

I should see it at my doorstep in about 6 weeks.

Then...it's hammer time! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

I am soooo happy right about now... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[JoeG]

Get the optional Titanium block------------

[musclecarjohn]

[ QUOTE ]
Get the optional Titanium block------------

[/ QUOTE ]

Not bullet-proof enough for you or did I go overboard? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

[JoeG]

Just bustin your http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif---------- http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[musclecarjohn]

figured...especially someone from my place of birth,Brooklyn,NY! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif
Born &amp; raised there,left for sunny CA in 1970.