1970 L-78 Camaro CKO block [Archive]

nrjulin

10-27-2005, 06:07 AM

I'm looking at buying a 70 L-78 Camaro from a friend who has had the car for 10 -20 years. It has been in his garage ever since he bought it and he calls it in rough condition. I've seen much worse in fact my 70 Z started in worse condition before the resto.

I've gone through all the numbers and date codes match (M-21 trans with vin, dist, alt, heads, rear, exhaust manifolds, intake, water pump, intake and starter. It even has the COPO 3 peice spoiler.

My question is the engine block has a CKO code. From what I've researched so far the L-78's with a manual trans were coded with a CJH. I see that CKO is for a 396 with mt but doesn't specify a L-78. Would they have used the CKO block for a L-78? I haven't been able to find the vin on the block yet.

He is pulling all the documentation that he has for the car and he states that he has the POP but no build sheet. I hope to see the documentation soon and see what is there.

Also, any recommendations on what esle I should look for?

Mr70

10-27-2005, 06:13 AM

CKO is the correct code for the 402/375HP Man. Trans. L-78.
What's the Prefix & date stamp on the Pass. side Rearend axle tube?
Please share pix of every single possible piece of documentaion with us,as well as the Cowl tag info.
We are here to help.

nrjulin

10-27-2005, 06:21 AM

Here are the pics I have so far. I don't have a pic of the cowl tag yet but here is the info.

ST 70 12487 NOR270003BDY
TR 723 45 G PNT
04C L78

Yes, it is triple green.

Thanks for the help.

nrjulin

10-27-2005, 06:22 AM

Another pic

nrjulin

10-27-2005, 06:25 AM

and the engine. The original exhaust manifolds come with the car.

Mr70

10-27-2005, 06:26 AM

Does he have the Dual Snorkle Air Cleaner for it?
Make sure the Ex.Manifolds have A.I.R. provisions.
What red Line is the Tach,if so equipped?
NICE CAR!

nrjulin

10-27-2005, 06:29 AM

He didn't mention it and I didn't see it laying around. I do have an extra one that I got when I was buying parts for my 70 Z. Also it has the correct carb.

nrjulin

10-27-2005, 06:37 AM

The axle has a COX code and a date of 0410G1. It is a locking 3:55

Mr70

10-27-2005, 06:39 AM

That's the proper rear.
Can you find out the casting date & casting no. of that CKO block please.

nrjulin

10-27-2005, 06:45 AM

The block casting is 3969854 and the date is J-18-9. The date seems early so that was going to be my next question.

Thanks again.

Mr70

10-27-2005, 07:13 AM

That is early,but not impossible as these cars were built very late,and most likely the blocks were just sitting waiting for the cars awhile.
What's the Tonawanda build date before the CKO code on the Pad behind the Alternator?
Is the VIN# stamped there,or is it down by the Oil filter?
Do you see an external Oil cooler provision above the Oil filter Mount to indicate a 4-bolt block?

CamarosRus

10-27-2005, 08:36 AM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/CamarosRus/70%20L78%20Camaro%20Misc/pad3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/CamarosRus/70%20L78%20Camaro%20Misc/Tach.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/CamarosRus/70%20L78%20Camaro%20Misc/Vin1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/CamarosRus/70%20L78%20Camaro%20Misc/Vin2.jpg

Chuck S

nrjulin

10-27-2005, 08:51 AM

Thanks. I'm going back and I'll get pictures.

Fhakya

10-27-2005, 09:08 AM

Good luck!

Also a couple of quick questions of mine (great input guys):

I just hopped to 2gcog to double check my info on that block stamping and am now wondering if there were 2 possible stamps for the block? Are both CKO and CJK valid for the '70 Camaro?

Also, I was going to suggest that he look for the lack of a return fuel line to the tank (Holley VS Rochester). The Rochester equipped cars had return/vapor lines going back to the tank correct?

CamarosRus

10-27-2005, 11:02 AM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/CamarosRus/70%20L78%20Camaro%20Misc/Air1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/CamarosRus/70%20L78%20Camaro%20Misc/aps3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/CamarosRus/70%20L78%20Camaro%20Misc/Carlisle2j.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/CamarosRus/70%20L78%20Camaro%20Misc/Carlisle2jb.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/CamarosRus/70%20L78%20Camaro%20Misc/Cleaner2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/CamarosRus/70%20L78%20Camaro%20Misc/Clip1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/CamarosRus/70%20L78%20Camaro%20Misc/IM000122.jpg

My Current L-78 (NOT pictured, also Classic Copper) will be using above style air cleaner........

Chuck

Hotrodpaul

10-27-2005, 03:24 PM

Man, I am wondering how that L-78 402 can breathe through those tiny snorkels. An open element air cleaner could free up a lot of power on these engines.

At least the LT-1 350 has larger openings to draw air from. Anyone have any performance specs or road test data from the 70 L-78 Camaro. With the low rise intake and restrictive air cleaner, I would think it would be slower than the LT-1 powered Z-28.

Paul
69 Camaro SS L-78 M-21
70 Camaro Z-28 M-40

COPO

10-27-2005, 03:28 PM

Looks like a super find and certainly rare being 1 of 600. I still own one of these and have owned three. Is the three piece rear spoiler original to the car?

nrjulin

10-27-2005, 05:07 PM

Chuck, thanks for posting the info on the air cleaner. I didn't realize it was different than the Z28 air cleaner. I'll be sure to ask the current owner if he has it.

nrjulin

10-27-2005, 05:59 PM

From my understanding the 3 peice spoiler is original to the car. Again, I have not seen the docs yet. The history as I understand it is: This car was special ordered for a customer in triple green with the spoiler. When the car arrived the person who ordered thought it was to ugly and refused delivery. The car then sat on the lot until it was sold sometime in '71.

Mr70

10-27-2005, 06:48 PM

I would do what you can to obtain it,within reason.
Don't balk or underestimate it.

nrjulin

10-27-2005, 07:16 PM

Rick, Thanks for all of your help. I am planning on going to see it again this weekend and hopefully buy it. If the price is too high I will let everyone here know and see if someone else wants it.

Also, the car in the background of one of the pictures is a 70 Chevelle LS6 with original motor. I did not go through the numbers on it since I am only interested in the L-78 Camaro.

Mr70

10-27-2005, 07:32 PM

You Have mail...

CamarosRus

10-27-2005, 10:36 PM

Rear picture appears to show bumper guards W/O VF-3 Rubber Strips. If this is PLAIN chrome bumper with guards, that would be wrong, UNLESS we have uncovered another detail on COPO spoilers (Phil B please respond) I also see what appear to be RARE Original Chrome tip tailpipes, which were on all SS cars.
Can anybody else SEE what appears to be a quite SHINY Black Taillight panel.....which helps to demonstrate how most people have this detail TOO flat........

Chuck S

CamarosRus

10-27-2005, 10:37 PM

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/CamarosRus/70%20L78%20Camaro%20Misc/TailpanelBlack.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/CamarosRus/70%20L78%20Camaro%20Misc/VF-3Bumper.jpg

Fhakya

10-28-2005, 04:35 PM

I think that a better phrase would be 'tangs' or 'fangs' as the early VF-3 seem to me to be urethane "guards".

The post above the pics kind of lost me a bit.

I the initial pics posted (granted I didn't blow them up at all) of nrjulin, I didn't see any real tell-tale signs of the early VF-3 option. The "tangs", "fangs" are there but can you really see the tell-tale signs of the 'early' VF-3 guards there? I trust you 1st and foremost Chuck http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif but I'm not seeing it...so far from the pics.

Why would the VF-3 guards be wrong if it were after the rubber bumper guards were discontinued? I've been a 2nd gen "hound" since I was a kid but only recently has the VF-3 option caught my radar...weird.

Also..I've been thinking for the last few months about putting together a web based '70 Camaro L-78 registry (just because I have a passion for them, the server space and the time...and 600 cars can't be that much work right? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

-Mark H.

canadian_ssl78

10-29-2005, 10:40 AM

Mark, I think the only way to get rear bumper guards was to order a Z28 (standard equipment) or order the VF3 option on any camaro. The VF3 option included the rear guards.

Chuck, are the rear bumper pics shown above your car?
John

70CitrusZ

10-30-2005, 01:33 AM

Fhakya,
rpo VF3 is the rubber strips AND the guards.
Regular guards only (rear)(with no rubber) are not VF3, and are apparently "only" a part of rpo Z-28, with no separate rpo.
So if you ordered rpo VF3 you got the guards along with the rubber strips.
If you ordered rpo Z-28 you got the guards but no strips.
If you ordered rpo Z-28 AND VF3 you got the guards and the strips.
The ONLY (apparently) other way a non Z-28 and non VF3 car could have these guards were as a dealer installed part.

A lot of people confuse VF3 with standard Z-28 guards.
standard Z-28 bumper guards are not rpo VF3.
Mark.

nrjulin

10-30-2005, 02:33 AM

I blew up the original picture (much higher resolution) that I have and I can see the urethane strip. I plan on going to pick the car up next weekend since the owner is out of town this weekend. If all goes well, I'll be the proud owner of this 70 L-78.

Again, thanks to everybody's (Rick and Chuick espacially) help and input in verifying this 70 L-78 Camaro. I know thier help will be incredilbly valuable when I start the restoration.

Once I have the car in my possesion, I will be happy to share any information gathered from it.

NRJ

Fhakya

10-30-2005, 03:42 PM

That's great news NRJ! I'm not going to jinx until you have it in your possession.

Great clarification Mark (70CitrusZ)....that was what I was kind of assuming but never had it backed up (no pun intended).

I've seen a few SS's w/ the tangs/fangs but just assumed that they were part a the later VF-3 (non Z) option or possible retrofit. I have not seen any 72,73's w/ them that I can recall and was wondering if that was still an option in those years. The strip wasn't as per my understanding...even in 71.

It's probably more of a topic for 2gcog but interesting nontheless and applicable here.

Great thread!

-Mark H.

nrjulin

12-04-2005, 08:33 PM

Well it has been a while since I updated this post but the good news it I finally have the car in my possession.

It is remarkably complete. It only has 22,810 miles on it and has all the original and correctly date coded parts that one could ask for: CKO Engine with VIN, M-21 with VIN, 3:55 COX rear, L-78 Tach, dist, alt, heads, rear, exhaust manifolds, smog system, intake, water pump, intake and starter. Even the original exhaust is still there. Also, The interior looks very good other than being very dirty and a ripped drivers seat. All the sheet metal is very solid but there has been some surface rust in the usual areas that was preped and primed and original vinyl top was ripped off and primed.

To correct an earlier post, this was not a 3 piece spoiler car originally. That was added by the second owner but I was given the original one peice spoiler with the original dealer name plate still attached. It was sold out of John Smith Chevrolet in Atlanta GA.

To my surprise the POP, original sales invoice, warranty transfer paperwork and receipt to the second owner all came with the car. I will be the fourth owner. The First owner only owned the car for about 8 months, Second owner until 1988 when the last owner bought it and parked in in his garage. Also, I was given a ton of NOS parts the last owner collected in the 80's when he planned on restoring the car. I still have alot of boxes to go through but I did find the original L-78 air cleaner and a NOS L-78 air cleaner still in the original parts box.

Now for the fun of restoring the car.

Thanks again to everyone who helped me verify the info for this car.

One more thing, He still has a few more incredible cars that he is considering selling. 1970 Chevelle LS-6, 1970 Buick GS and 2 442 W-30's. He collected these in the 80's with the hope of restoring them but has not yet. He did collect alot of NOS parts to get ready for the restorations but...

Xplantdad

12-04-2005, 08:36 PM

Nils, very cool. Congrats on the new purchase. PLease keep us updated as things progress http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Mr70

12-04-2005, 08:53 PM

Well done.
Can you grace us with pictures of the car itself,as well as everything you got with it on the side?

nrjulin

12-04-2005, 10:07 PM

Here is a copy of the Sales Invoice and Warranty Transfer docs.

Note the original sale date of 7/14/71. It shows how long it sat on the lot. The story goes that it was special ordered for a cutomer (Green Mist, Green Vinyl top and Green interior as well as other options) and when it arrived the Customer thought it was ugly and refused delivery.

The warranty transfer was done on 4/11/72 so the original owner did not keep it long. Also, the funny thing is it says the original Protect O Plate is attached but I have it. I'm not sure how it worked back then or why it remained with the car.

I have some research to do in finding the 1st and 2nd owners and I will try to contact the Dealership (John Smith Chevrolet) and see if they still have anything on the car. It looks like they are still in business but may have moved locations.

I'll post some pics soon.

nrjulin

12-04-2005, 10:50 PM

Here is a pic of the trim tag.

dwright406

12-04-2005, 11:47 PM

That's a cool project, nice to see more 2nd gens getting attention.

70-SS/RS-L78

12-04-2005, 11:55 PM

Nils my L78 sat on the lot unsold until 8-71. Nobody could get or afford insurance on the Car; Well that and the
$5000 Price tag. The owner of the Dealership finally had to put a Stop to all of the “Test Pilots”… LV the original
Owner Finally had the Smarts to put the car in his Wife’s name so he could get the car insured. The salesman
still remembers my car well 35 years later and they sold a bunch Muscle Cars back in the day. I talked to the
original owner and salesman for hours listening to the stories about my L78. I wish I could have recorded it somehow.

CamarosRus

12-05-2005, 12:51 AM

Pictures of Mark L's "Kentucky Gold" (Camaro Gold) 70 L-78 from several years ago, just prior to Mark buying car.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/CamarosRus/Misc%20Camaro%20pics/AirCln.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/CamarosRus/Misc%20Camaro%20pics/Int.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/CamarosRus/Misc%20Camaro%20pics/Right.jpg

nrjulin

12-05-2005, 02:48 AM

OK, My pictures aren't posting. Anyone want to post them for me?

Xplantdad

12-05-2005, 02:59 AM

Email them to me [email protected] and I'll post them for you

canadian_ssl78

12-05-2005, 04:20 AM

Congrats on the car purchase..

[ QUOTE ]
and a NOS L-78 air cleaner still in the original parts box.

[/ QUOTE ] http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

nrjulin

12-05-2005, 04:46 AM

Bruce,

I sent you a bunch of pictures. Thanks for posting them.

Seattle Sam

12-05-2005, 05:32 AM

Nils,
Congratulations on a great score! I'm no expert, but let me know if there is anything I can help you with.
-Sam http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Xplantdad

12-06-2005, 07:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Bruce,

I sent you a bunch of pictures. Thanks for posting them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Nils...here ya go...Sorry it took so long. Had a "few" other pictures to deal with... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b156/lotsayenkopics/nrjulin/tn_1970L-78pic1.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b156/lotsayenkopics/nrjulin/tn_1970L-78pic2.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b156/lotsayenkopics/nrjulin/tn_IMG_0066.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b156/lotsayenkopics/nrjulin/tn_IMG_0069.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b156/lotsayenkopics/nrjulin/tn_IMG_0068.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b156/lotsayenkopics/nrjulin/tn_IMG_0057.jpg

Bob Jenkins

12-06-2005, 08:03 AM

Wow, nice find. My 1969 L78 Camaro also originally came from John Smith Chevrolet and it is also triple green. It is fathom green, midnight green vinyl top and medium green interior. According to the original owner, it also sat on the lot for a while and he got a good deal on it. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Stefano

12-06-2005, 10:18 AM

Very http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

70-SS/RS-L78

12-07-2005, 08:52 PM

Nice Find!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
I will talk to you soon…

nrjulin

12-08-2005, 04:19 AM

Finally got an online photo account. Here is the trim tag.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d82/nrjulin/1970L-78Trimtag.jpg

MosportGreen66

12-08-2005, 04:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Finally got an online photo account. Here is the trim tag.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d82/nrjulin/1970L-78Trimtag.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

The holy grail... awesome find!

Mr70

12-08-2005, 04:44 AM

So Simple Looking isn't it. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

THNDER

12-08-2005, 09:57 AM

NRJ, could you please post the numbers you found on the front of the block,behind the alt. Thanks! Great find! Mike

nrjulin

12-08-2005, 06:11 PM

I haven't been able to get a picture to turn out but the PAD stamping is: T0407CKO.

I'll post a picture when I can get it to turn out along with the VIN stamped by the oil filter on the block. I should have the engine pulled in the next week or so.

nrjulin

12-08-2005, 07:34 PM

Finally got a picture of the engine pad to turnout.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d82/nrjulin/1970L-78EnginePad.jpg

MagicRatt

12-09-2005, 03:50 AM

.....looking good!!!!!

70-SS/RS-L78

12-09-2005, 05:55 AM

Another Norwood L78 with the VIN on the back of the block by the oil filter. I see a pattern developing
hear with these cars. It seems as though all of the Norwood L78 Camaro VIN numbers are stamped on
the back of the block. It is the LA cars that are not consistent. There are so FEW (10 or 15 of 600) of
these with the Original (Born With) Engine that it is hard to tell what is Correct and what is Not. It’s good
to see more of them being found. They are out there somewhere.....

THNDER

12-09-2005, 08:30 AM

NRJ, Thanks alot for taking the time. Helps me out a bunch. Mike.

COPO

12-09-2005, 03:19 PM

My Norwood '70 L-78 is also stamped by the oil filter. That seems to be the norm for Norwood cars in '70 not just L-78's.

THNDER

12-10-2005, 08:46 AM

Two more questions for Nils...what are the dates on the heads? I understand you have two air cleaners, one original, one is NOS. Could you compare the two, and tell us if there are any differences, no matter how small. Thanks Mike

YenkoYS100

12-12-2005, 03:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Another Norwood L78 with the VIN on the back of the block by the oil filter. I see a pattern developing
hear with these cars. It seems as though all of the Norwood L78 Camaro VIN numbers are stamped on
the back of the block. It is the LA cars that are not consistent. There are so FEW (10 or 15 of 600) of
these with the Original (Born With) Engine that it is hard to tell what is Correct and what is Not. It’s good
to see more of them being found. They are out there somewhere.....

[/ QUOTE ]
Interesting that this is now known on the Norwood VS. LA built '70 L78 engines. My '70 CKO L78 Camaro #854 4-bolt
block has been decked in the past, and the vin is gone. It has always looked like there was not one by the oil filter. I got the engine from the original owner that bought the Camaro new in '70.

What else could an #854 4-bolt '70 dated 402 bore block have been, other than an L78?

THNDER

12-12-2005, 08:17 AM

Rick, L78 is it. The 854 block was used in 350 Hp versions with 2 bolt mains. L78 was the only application that Colvin's chevy by the numbes shows for a four bolt block. Mike

CamarosRus

12-12-2005, 09:32 AM

While on the subject of 1970 Camaro L-78's, myself, Nils and Mark L are trying to acculate owners and info to form a L-78 registry. This will be similar to Ricks Chevelle LS-6 registry. PLEASE pass along this plea for ANY/ALL names info to whomever you might know with 70 Camaro L-78.
FYI there is already a 70-73 Z-28 registry.........

My Email is [email protected]

nrjulin

12-14-2005, 12:08 AM

THNDER,

I've been out of town for several days.

The casting dates on both heads is C 6 70 (March 6th 1970)

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d82/nrjulin/IMG_0072.jpg

As far as the NOS Air cleaner, It is still in the unopened box and I really don't want to open it right now. I have had several generous offers for it and I'll probably sell it to help pay for part of the restoration. I'll ask whoever I sell it to if I can open it.

CamarosRus

12-14-2005, 12:47 AM

Getting that NOS air cleaner WITH your purchase is just mind boggling......Easily one of the rarest/most valuble individual parts on any 2nd Gen Camaro. Did you also get NOS Fan Shroud or at least GOOD one.....

Mr70

12-14-2005, 01:05 AM

They sold more Dual Snorkles over the counter,then came on the actual cars themselves.
Here's One in the Box.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4594216044

nrjulin

12-14-2005, 01:57 AM

Chuck,

I got a good Fan shoud with the car that I believe is the correct one,it is just dirty. The part number on it is 3973920. Is this the correct shroud?

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d82/nrjulin/IMG_1168.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d82/nrjulin/IMG_1166.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d82/nrjulin/IMG_1169.jpg

Also, what is the part number for the L-78 radiator? I have to clean mine up and look for the part number.

TDW

12-14-2005, 03:13 AM

Is the engine lift hook original? Don Lightfoot is looking for info on the correct finish on them. It looks like it has never been painted. Correct?

70-SS/RS-L78

12-14-2005, 04:02 AM

Nils look for the metal tag with a (LM) Code.
This Radiator was used in the 1970 L34 and L78 Camaro’s. Be VERY, VERY Careful with that Fan Shroud.
It is another Extremely Rare and Tough piece to find. I had a guy put his elbow through one of mine. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Good Question on the Lift Brackets which were also used on the LS6. Hopefully some of the
LS6 Chevelle guys will chime in with some answers for us. Niles Lift Brackets look to be Not Painted.