Selling Trim Tags ?????

[jfkheat]

Just for the record, I need to get your opinion on selling trim tags. I am having a discussion on Chevy Talk with a guy that was complaining because Ebay ended a couple of his auctions where he was selling trim tags. I posted my opinion about selling trim tags and he says he doesn't see where it is any different than selling any other used part. Here is a link to the discussion.
James

http://www.chevytalk.org/threads/showfla...ID=#Post1354819 (http://www.chevytalk.org/threads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=1354819&page=0&vc=1&PHPS ESSID=#Post1354819)

[SamLBInj]

I like how he says you can put it on your old race car if the original one fell off http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[djunod]

There are ethics and there are "ethics".

1) Is it ethical to call a car an original COPO, when some/all the drivetrain and panels have been replaced, with numbers matching and/or NOS parts?

2) Is it ethical to even call it a COPO, when all that is COPO is the magic VIN or a piece of paper?

Replace COPO, with Yenko, Motion, Z-28, RS, SS, LS6, etc. and ask the same 2 questions.

The line seems to be indistinct for most people, it appears that a lot of people want to set it at the number matching replaced Trim Tag.

A few years ago when I was looking for a 427 for my Maco, I was talking on the phone with a potential supplier of that engine. When he asked me what date code I needed, the light bulb went on in my head... I finally realized that most of this "original", "number matching", "documented" stuff is just a bunch of hooha, based on what will bring in the most money.

Most everybody with a high dollar car knows this and is playing it like a game. Does Jay Leno do this with his car collection? It doesn't appear that way to me, to me it looks like he goes for eclectic & unique cars, for the cars themselves. He's obviously doing it for the cars, and not for the money.

Personally, I am in it for the cars themselves, the ones that appeal to me. Sometimes I do wish that I was willing to play that numbers game though... when I see how much money people make from it... but then I get back down to who I am, and that just isn't me.

These are my opinions, and have been mine for a while now.

[hep1966]

[ QUOTE ]
I like how he says you can put it on your old race car if the original one fell off http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that was really funny. Maybe it was supposed to be an example rather than be taken literally. Besides, things never fall off, break off, or get taken off racecars. We all know that every COPO Camaro and Chevelle still has the original drivetrain and body panels. There is no market for replacement parts for these cars.

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
There are ethics and there are "ethics".

1) Is it ethical to call a car an original COPO, when some/all the drivetrain and panels have been replaced, with numbers matching and/or NOS parts?

2) Is it ethical to even call it a COPO, when all that is COPO is the magic VIN or a piece of paper?

Replace COPO, with Yenko, Motion, Z-28, RS, SS, LS6, etc. and ask the same 2 questions.

The line seems to be indistinct for most people, it appears that a lot of people want to set it at the number matching replaced Trim Tag.

[/ QUOTE ]

According to Federal Law, it is the VIN that makes the car what it is. So, therefore the VIN and the body it was ORIGINALLY attached to, are what makes a COPO a COPO.

Engine, tranmissions, rears, etc., can be replaced and the car is still a COPO. But if you remove that VIN tag and put it on another body, the result is that you no longer have that orginal car (and you've committed a Federal felony as an added bonus...And no they don't care that you pulled it off of a rusted-beyond-repair car to salvage a historical automobile by placing it on a rust free body)

As for firewall data tags, you can do whatever you feel with one. *But if you attach it to another car in order to match how you've built that car and then represent it as that new car, you are committing fraud. And even if you tell the guy you sell the car to, that the tag was placed on there and it's not from that car originally you may still get sued, when your buyer then sells the car to someone else and lies about it...You will be part of the civil lawsuit when buyer #3 looks for deep pockets, because it was foreseeable that seller #2 would represent the car as real. You may even win your part of the lawsuit but you will be out a ton of $$$ for legal fees. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[WILMASBOYL78]

I have a trim tag from a 72 AMC Matador 4 door..first $5.00 takes it!

wilma http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[Verne_Frantz]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again (and it's in print in a few books). The cowl tag is NOT the last "restoration" item for a car, made to match the way the car was restored - it is the birth certificate of the car, and the car should be restored to match it, not vice-versa. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

Verne

[SamLBInj]

[ QUOTE ]
I've said it before, and I'll say it again (and it's in print in a few books). The cowl tag is NOT the last "restoration" item for a car, made to match the way the car was restored - it is the birth certificate of the car, and the car should be restored to match it, not vice-versa. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

Verne

[/ QUOTE ]
You are right Verne, its the blueprint for the car.

[RichSchmidt]

Forst off,there are companies out there that have brand new blank trim tags and even protectoplates and the corect equipment to stamp them to say whatever you want them tosay.Why get tangled up in a build date/VIN sequence mismatch when you can nail al the numbers dead on?It is just one more reason why the value we place on our cars is really open to interpitation.

Right now we are facing the issue of repop bodies.It doesnt seem like an issue,but what is the difference between repoping entire bodies and hangining you vin tag onto it or just hangining every repop part on your existing VIN tag?

LEts say you see a combine mowing down a feild out in the middle of nowhere when all of a sudden the combine stops because something is stuck in it's blades?You get out to see what heppened,and it turns out that the combine driver just ran over a genuine RS/SS ZL1 Baldwin Motion Camaro.It is the only one ever build and from the alumimnum shards under the wheels of the combine you can see that the ZL1 mill is under the hood.You pick the car up and pencil trace the VIN,and apply for a title.Then you call up a few parts houses and order a new roofskin,full floorpans,a cowl panel and firewall sections,all the exterior panels,The trunk floor panels and all the rest of the stuff to restore the car.You then go on Ebay and buy a donor car for the subframe.The next thing you know,your camaro is reborn.This is about how far gone at least a 1/3 of all the remaining undiscovered supercars really are.So I guess it is all relitive.

[SamLBInj]

Ok I get it, Find an old small block 67 SS camaro convertible, plop in a brand new 396/375 hp big block freshly restamped motor(Hey, why not, the tag is fake anyway), rivet on the new tag and, Whala ,instant L78..cool, you can also sell it for about 50 grand more than what it was originally worth..what a great concept...by the way, this is already going on and the people doing it should be locked up...A cars cowl tag is the means of showing how it was ordered and built.

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
Forst off,there are companies out there that have brand new blank trim tags and even protectoplates and the corect equipment to stamp them to say whatever you want them tosay.Why get tangled up in a build date/VIN sequence mismatch when you can nail al the numbers dead on?It is just one more reason why the value we place on our cars is really open to interpitation.

Right now we are facing the issue of repop bodies.It doesnt seem like an issue,but what is the difference between repoping entire bodies and hangining you vin tag onto it or just hangining every repop part on your existing VIN tag?

LEts say you see a combine mowing down a feild out in the middle of nowhere when all of a sudden the combine stops because something is stuck in it's blades?You get out to see what heppened,and it turns out that the combine driver just ran over a genuine RS/SS ZL1 Baldwin Motion Camaro.It is the only one ever build and from the alumimnum shards under the wheels of the combine you can see that the ZL1 mill is under the hood.You pick the car up and pencil trace the VIN,and apply for a title.Then you call up a few parts houses and order a new roofskin,full floorpans,a cowl panel and firewall sections,all the exterior panels,The trunk floor panels and all the rest of the stuff to restore the car.You then go on Ebay and buy a donor car for the subframe.The next thing you know,your camaro is reborn.This is about how far gone at least a 1/3 of all the remaining undiscovered supercars really are.So I guess it is all relitive.

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference is that you are restoring an existing car by removing and replacing rusted parts that were on it originally, not faking or creating another. If you look at the fine print on the new repro body shells, they specifically state "check with your local motor vehicle laws" about titling the car prior to purchasing the shell.

Until the laws are changed, it will still be a felony to rivet a VIN onto a car that it did not come on originally. Seriously, if people want to get some type of "restoration exemption" clause in the Federal and State statutes then they better start working their Senators and Congressman about it.

[RichSchmidt]

Thats pretty much how it is done.As it has been stated before,the law doesnt regard the trim tag as an actual document for the car.Changing the trim tag has the same legal reprecussions as restamping an engine block.Both are considred fraud,but since the law doesnt really place a value on what the trim tag or engine stampings are worth,it is a tough act to prosicute.If you purchase a car that is advertised as "all numbers matching",and you can prove that the engine is a restamp,you could stand a chance in court getting a refund if you could provide expert testimony to explain how the expession"all numbers" refers to the engine stampings and other components as well as explain how such a representation effects the value of the car,otherwise,the defendant could claim that he just meant that the title numbers matched the VIN on the dashboard,and the judge might be inclined to agree with him.

As for that scenerio that I mentioned about the replacment parts compared to the whole body,I was making light of the fact that many cars are restored and end up having no original structure or metal other then the VIN tag.If I were to find a crushed 69 camaro in the junkyard,pull it ou from the bottom of the pile,and start by placing the existing VIN tag onto a new repop cowl panel,then attaching the new cowl panel to some new toeboards,then attaching that to a new preassembled floorpan,and hangling some full rockers off of it,then adding some repop frame rails and a repop trunk floor and dropoffs,along with some repop inner roof structure,some reop fulll 1/4's,a repop roofskin and tail panel,some repop door sheels,and all the rest of the repop parts,how is it any different then just putting the tag on a repop body?How about if the car wasnt crushed,but rather totally rusted?How about if the job started with me welding a new cowl panel into the rusted hulk,then putting the tag on the new cowl panel,then replacing all the above mentioned parts one at a time?How about a law that makes it illegal to repair cowl boxes?Make it illegal to make any repairs to the cowl area of a car.If the car is so damaged that these areas need repaired,make it a law that the car must be proven destoyed in a metal shredder regardless of perceived or potential value.Race cars and wierd accidents would be no exceptions.

This is the problem with our hobby.Cars are selling for 10 times their book value for reasons that the law cant define.Take for example the proposed"all numbers matching" car that I mentioned above.Lets say that it was an RS/SS 68 camaro with an L78 4 speed and was 1 of 10 made in puke twist green.As such you payed 1 million dollars for the only know surviving example of such a car.As it turns out,the car and the trim tag are legit,but the engine is restamped.You feel that this devalues the car to be worth only $100,000 because there are 2 other NOM cars identical to yours in existance,but you payed the extra 900 grand for the numbers car.Should you get the 900 grand?Maybe only 200 grand?Whose to say?How about the guy who got scammed into buying a "numbers matching" white 327 powerglide 68 camaro on Ebay and found out that it had a 1976 pickup truck engine in it?He payed 10 grand for his car,but now it is only worth 9500.Can he still claim that he was robbed by as much as you were?Would any judge really want to touch that?As long as we continue to make it worthwhile for this business to exist,it will continue to thrive.

[Racefan]

What if I were to tell you that if you have seen a particular car whose VIN ends in xxxx56, you were seeing a duplicate of a car which is buried to the windshield frame in a ditch? But, the one you see has the correct tags in it. The hidden VIN is buried with the original hulk. Would anyone here have a problem with me digging up an old sYc and pulling the tags out of it and buying/selling them? My guess is that some who would defend the selling of trim tags would be outraged! I don't think it right to swap tags, nor do I think it appropriate to rebody cars either. Both can argue that they are only trying to make a car for thier personal enjoyment.....but two or three owners down the road someone gets taken! That is why when I am in the finishing process on my 68 sYc clone, I will make changes to the details to make it obvious. I don't want anyone accusing me of trying to dupe people. I like the looks, but it ill continue to carry its original trim tag and VIN.

[tirebird]

I love this thread. There is so much money running around on our cars that fraud is obviously part of the mix. I'll give my personal example to add to this brew.

A couple of years ago I sold my 69 RS Z28. I had orginal sales contracts, and receipts for repairs and the frame off restoration done by the owner before me. However, when this same owner restored the car he decided to freshen up the engine which unfortunately, included decking the original DZ 302 block. Well, he took the Vin# off the pad. We had the block date code, but the Vin# was missing.

My consignment dealer suggested we restamp the block. I told him that was foolish because we would have to disclose it to any future owner and I was unsure that any subsequent buyer would be told. He gave me a puzzled look and said that's his problem. Needless to say, I refused and the car still sold for a good price based on the date stamp and other information. I was amazed at how casual this and other fraud is. It's treated like a parking ticket.

[hep1966]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a trim tag from a 72 AMC Matador 4 door..first $5.00 takes it!

wilma http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I have 2 for 66 Chevelles. One for a SS hardtop, the other for a 2 door hardtop w/ a few options. Taking offers.

[TimG]

A few years ago I found a '65 Shelby in a field near Brady, TX (it ain't near anything). It was total trash, no tags to be seen, but the original Mustang ID number was there for my viewing. You can believe I took it down. I don't know the Shelby serial number, but the Mustang ID number was forwarded to SAAC.

[RichSchmidt]

What if I painstakingly unearthed that buried car when the tags were intact,and began replacng every single part on the car until it was restored.Since they make every single part including roof structures,firewall and cowl structures,frame channels,and full floorpans,it could be possible to resurect that car by simply welding one piece at a time of repop parts onto the existing upper cowl box with the vin and trim tag attached.How far is too far?In this day and age,ANY camaro can be restored with enough work,even one that was crushed in a car crusher.How do we draw the line.If replacing the frame of a car is too much and goes too far,then how about a mint original body shell with a backhalf job or a tube chassis under it,but mint roof,1/4's and firewal with all the numbers?Is it O.K. to fix such a car with repop or donor parts.My own car is pretty far gone,but it is still a real car.The roof could stand to be replaced because of many small dents and waves,both rear 1'4's were shot when I started on it,as wer both doors and fenders,and the front subframe was bent so bad that the wheels couldnt be pointed in the same direction even after substantial repair work.I replaced all the sheet metal,and replaced the subframe with a donor one.It is now a conglomeration of about 5 different cars.The firewall is hacked out along with the hidden VIN because it has spent most of it's life as a race car,so what should somebody do with such a car.The floors and rear rails were mint as were most of the internal structures,but it sure as heck cant be call"restored to original".

I would like to hear some opinions on how far we should go to restore a car.Back 20 years ago when some guy might have pulled the trim and VIN tag off his Yenko because he wrapped it around a pole,the thought was that a really dented car is worthless or unfixable.Today such a car might be considered an easy fix and be a very desirable find.

[Racefan]

Rich, here is another interesting question that has come up before. What if you were to dig the car up and restore it. Then call the Highway Patrol to verify the hidden VIN to title the car. Then on the search, they find that the VIN in question is already registered to someone!? What happens then? Who is in trouble? What if the orignal perpetrator has sold the car as real for a large sum of money and the new owner is completely convinced his car is real because it has all the right trim/VIN tags? So, the question comes back to which car is REAL? The one that you unearthed or the completely frame off beauty that sports the tags? According to the law the freshly unearthed car was the true car ending in VIN XXXX56. I wish I could say that this is only a "what if"......... but I can say with some degree of certainty that the situation is completely real. The only thing that is a "what if" is that no one has dug up the original XXXX56 YET. I have a gut feeling that there are more cars out there just like this, and there are those "in the know" who know about the questionable nature of them. But, no one is talking. I don't mean to bring this up to cause trouble or point fingers (that is why I don't mention any more specifics) but only to say that we can complain about the 'vette guys and so forth--but no group is without its skeletons. It, unfortunately, is a part of the game as soon as the values become what they have become.

[Rick H]

So let me se if I have this straight. I just found a 69 L78 that has been in storage for 20 years and is in excellent shape except of one area. The dash has rotted out because of the moisture that sits on them.

Show of hands that can relate to this scenerio.

Now I have to pass on the car because I can not legally remove the VIN tag, replace the dash panel and then reattach the VIN tag to the replacement panel? Technically the new dash is not original to the car.

Am I reading some of these responses correctly that once the VIN is attached to the car it may never come off the original metal it was attached?

Where do you draw the line on this??


Rick H.

[SamLBInj]

There really is no discussion. Its fraud, Period. How about this, Find a nice 1967, 327 engined convertible camaro, put on a new 4K tag found or made wherever, Plop in a L78 and all the nice big block stuff, now take the car to a non title state and register it and insure it as a SS , now sell it to a title state and the car is now transformed with documents...legal?

[Racefan]

[ QUOTE ]
So let me se if I have this straight. I just found a 69 L78 that has been in storage for 20 years and is in excellent shape except of one area. The dash has rotted out because of the moisture that sits on them.

Show of hands that can relate to this scenerio.

Now I have to pass on the car because I can not legally remove the VIN tag, replace the dash panel and then reattach the VIN tag to the replacement panel? Technically the new dash is not original to the car.

Am I reading some of these responses correctly that once the VIN is attached to the car it may never come off the original metal it was attached?

Where do you draw the line on this??


Rick H.

[/ QUOTE ]

Difference is, did the tage get replaced into the original car again with matching hidden VINs? The I'd say you are safe. But, what if you decided to not pursue redoing your car that you found and bought a decent Plain Jane and moved all of your equipment to it (including tags)--that is what I'm talking about. However, you are probably going to get some criticism and questions about the legitimacy of the car with the non-correct rivets holding the tags in. All I am saying is that there is NO GOOD REASON to purchase or sell trim/VIN tags UNLESS you happen to find the person who owns the correct shell those tags should be in. And, chances are, if they were taken out at some point the car probably isn't even around anymore.

[PeteLeathersac]

Remember in the Ferrari crowd when the 250 Gto's were first hot, a guy had a real Gto, bought a regular 250, faked it as a Gto and included the tags off his own real car, sold the fake and kept the real car to drive with regular 250 tags? . Using this same logic, a well known and documented Chevy that no one questions as genuine in all ways could be bought and another car slipped under the tags....the job is so perfect and the car previously so well documented that no one ever suspects or looks at the facts again....the car is sold and the crook cruises in his genuine car telling all it's a clone with a big smile on his face? . Sounds crazy....kind of a reverse engineered clone....but possible?
On jumping tags around, whatever federal or varying laws by State or Provinces say, accepted rules of thumb by enthusists like the group here can be practised and the fraud people will be against these ideas making them easy to spot in the crowd? ~ Pete

[Rick H]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So let me se if I have this straight. I just found a 69 L78 that has been in storage for 20 years and is in excellent shape except of one area. The dash has rotted out because of the moisture that sits on them.

Show of hands that can relate to this scenerio.

Now I have to pass on the car because I can not legally remove the VIN tag, replace the dash panel and then reattach the VIN tag to the replacement panel? Technically the new dash is not original to the car.

Am I reading some of these responses correctly that once the VIN is attached to the car it may never come off the original metal it was attached?

Where do you draw the line on this??


Rick H.

[/ QUOTE ]

Difference is, did the tage get replaced into the original car again with matching hidden VINs? The I'd say you are safe. But, what if you decided to not pursue redoing your car that you found and bought a decent Plain Jane and moved all of your equipment to it (including tags)--that is what I'm talking about. However, you are probably going to get some criticism and questions about the legitimacy of the car with the non-correct rivets holding the tags in. All I am saying is that there is NO GOOD REASON to purchase or sell trim/VIN tags UNLESS you happen to find the person who owns the correct shell those tags should be in. And, chances are, if they were taken out at some point the car probably isn't even around anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please reread what I wrote. All I said that was wrong was a rusted dash panel. Nothing more. I never said anything about adding a different tag to make the car what it is not as Sam illustrates above. Just replacing the dash panel nothing more.

Rick H

[Racefan]

Please re-read what I wrote. I understood your question and point. In my opinion, you would be in the clear because your hidden VIN would match the VIN on the tag you moved. All I said about your swapping the VIN tag to the new dash panel was that you would probably get some questions for it not having the correct rivets, etc. But, they could easily be cleared up by showing the hidden VIN.

[RichSchmidt]

I think he might be implying that the rusted dash was actually a rusted cowl box which is where the most well known hidden vin is located.They reproduce this part,but it doesnt have a VIN stamped in it,so the car techically looses it's hidden VIN.I know my 73 'bird has the last 6 digits stamped on the drivers side end of the subframe,but I know that I mutilated mine when I welded in my frame connectors thus removing the evidence of the subframe swap.

As for that XXXX56 car that is being mentioned,you should know that in most states,any time a VIN is tampered with,the car in question is issued a new VIN,and the new one will look nothing like the old OEM VIN.They do this when they actually find cars that turn up tagged,but are in functional condition and can be auctioned or returned to their rightfull owner.If the owner of car XXXX56 really wanted to push the issue,he could press charges against the owner of the tagged car,and the owner would have to submit the car for investigation at which time a questionable hidden vin would reveal the truth,and the bogus car could be taken out of circulation by the government,and the own would loose the car,and it would be issue a new state VIN and sold at an auction.The bad part is that the bogus car might get to keep the cowl tag unless the legit owner can prove otherwise.Another issue is that the owner of the buried car better make it pretty spiffy looking before he calls in the state since otherwise they might object to even dealing with the car as anything other then junk.



I do have one more scenerio that always raises a few eyebrows when I mention it.With supercar prices being what they are,and with such good documentation of the whereabouts of so many of the remaining cars,the last of the survivous are crawling out of the woodwork and what we see isnt pretty.We are seeing drastic measures being used to rehabilitate tube chassis race cars back into stock floorpan restorations,and even rusted and crushed hulks are being dragged out of the cornfields and being reborn with both NOS and repop parts,but the actual amount of surviving supercar sheetmetal that is unaccounted for is getting pretty slim.Now my question is,how does what we are doing effect the mental outlook of our hobby?When somebody sees a nicely restored car,they sit in it,and feel like they are holding the same steering wheel and staring out the same windshiled as somebody did 35 years ago as they banged gears for the first time in their new supercar.What they are actually doing is sitting in a very nice recreation of such a car.With an entire repop or NOS interior,and sheet metal,and almost no visable original parts,they arent getting the "feel" of a true 35 year old survivor.Now the fact is that there isnt a real shortage of very clean 69 camaro original bodies{Or other muselce car bodies},but there is a shortage of clean bodies that came with COPO numbers on their cowl tags.As such,what is a more real driving experiance?I can sit in an overly restored supercar and appreciate the work that went into it,but the fact is that if I knew that the car was made up of 80% replacment parts,I wouldnt get a very good feeling out of it.Now if somebody built a tag job car using a mint original survivor base model body with all the running gear and tags from a supercar,and then made the required trim upgrades with either the old parts from the supercar,or other real production car parts,even if the interior panels were a bit dull and scratched,and the windsheild had wiper marks on it,wouldnt it offer a more true feeling of being in the real experiance?Isnt this what restoring an old car is all about?When you stop restoring and start replacing with new and reproduction parts is there eventually a point when you cant call it a restoration,but rather a recreation?Everyone is so quick to jump on the case of some guy who swaps out tags,but they themselves would think nothing of taking a destroyed legit car and putting so much work into saving the"original" body,that when they got done they only real vintage part on the entire body were the tags and some sheet metal clippings here and there between all the new panels they hung on the car.Who is really the lesser villian,the guy who replaces he entire rusted body with a mint correctly dated original base model body,or the guy who recreates his destroyed original out of a bunch of Chinese parts,or incorrectly dated parts or parts from 10 different cars and 20 pounds of welding wire holding them all together?The line between the good guys and the bad guys gets fuzzy sometimes.

[WILMASBOYL78]

That story gives you a better appreciation for the true original cars!!!!!

wilma http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[Racefan]

Another dumb question. In 1969, when a person pulled his new Yenko off the lot did it normally have dull and scratched interior parts or the windshield have wiper marks on it? When a starter went out, did he automatically take it to the Chevy garage and get it replaced with genuine AC/Delco parts? Nope, he probably went to the corner parts house and replaced it with whatever they carried. And he didn't worry about where it was made. Also, when an engine compartment was detailed, do you think they left the markings on the firewall? Nope, they were something that needed cleaned off. I don't know what my point is, or if I have a point. All I know is that there are cars out there who are marginally correct and there are those who know about them. Why are they not "outed"? If I were to looking to potentially purchase xxxx56 and knew nothing about all this, would someone send me a PM letting me know I may be making a mistake? THAT is what I want to know.

[Mr70]

Submit a Bid on it & find out.

[WILMASBOYL78]

[ QUOTE ]
There really is no discussion. Its fraud, Period. How about this, Find a nice 1967, 327 engined convertible camaro, put on a new 4K tag found or made wherever, Plop in a L78 and all the nice big block stuff, now take the car to a non title state and register it and insure it as a SS , now sell it to a title state and the car is now transformed with documents...legal?

[/ QUOTE ]


Sam, that's some system! I have heard of laundering money, but that's "car laundering". This hobby is headed for a reckoning!!

wilma http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[Rick H]

[ QUOTE ]
I think he might be implying that the rusted dash was actually a rusted cowl box which is where the most well known hidden vin is located.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh boy, http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif............ I look at these cars everyday and I know the difference between a dash panel and a cowl panel.
I am refering to the dash panel where the VIN tag is riveted NOT the cowl panel where the partial VIN's are located.

Doesn't matter anyway because if someone wants to restore his car, it's his car and he can go the route he wants.

Rick H.

[Belair62]

[ QUOTE ]
Now if somebody built a tag job car using a mint original survivor base model body with all the running gear and tags from a supercar,and then made the required trim upgrades with either the old parts from the supercar,or other real production car parts,even if the interior panels were a bit dull and scratched,and the windsheild had wiper marks on it,wouldnt it offer a more true feeling of being in the real experiance?

[/ QUOTE ]

So you are saying you would rather re-body a car than restore the crap out of a genuine car even though it is a hulk ? Thats a lazy and cheap way out. What experience would you be getting out of driving something that never was http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

[RichSchmidt]

The funny thing is that if you could pull of the job of the rebody and still no have the car look like it has been too "handled",it would attract a lot more attention and desire then a super restored car.Restoration used to mean to take a restorable car{such as one with a few dents,and some minor rust},and iron out all the blemishes and refinish it.It is getting that the point now that the best restored cars are the ones that are built with all new parts.It isnt resored if it isnt original,it is recreated.Cars with no original sheet metal except the VIN tag devalue the opinion of the real restorations of actual complete cars that were actually reconditioned using their original parts.It seems that nowadays all you need to have to own a real ZL1 camaro would be the stripped out hulk of somebody's tube chassis race car with the VIN in the window and the trim tag sitting in a baggie along with the title waiting to be reattached as soon as you put a firewall back into your project.Once it is done and it looks just like it was made that way 35 years ago.Is the product that much better then the car that is owned by that guy who did the dead on clone of one using a bonafide original mint 69 camaro body?Who really has a more original car?The guy who recreated everything except the trim tag on his car,or the guy who recreated the trim tag but used every other part that his car came with in 1969?Both of them are a sad twist on the truth to me.

And Sorry Rick,I guess I was reading too much into your post.I was trying to use it to explain my point about how parts that nobody would have ever considered replaceable 30 years ago are now being replaced and even repopped in new metal.20 years ago if a car was soo messed up that the firewall was shot,it was pretty much junked because none of these cars were considered valuable enough to be worth that kind of effort.Today,supercars with major structruatal damage are repaired at all cost.Its a sign of how the market has changed.


I guess a better question might be this.2 cars are at an auction alongside each other.Both are identical in quality and both are exactly the same car right down to the color and trim levels.

Car one was restored off a fairly original and clean body and aside from having a few replacemnt parts,the entire job of restoring the car centered around refinishing.As a point of interest,this car had a few small rust spots that were repaired rather then replaced,but the sheet metal is all original despite maybe even having a dab or two of plastic on it.The original undercarrage finish was cleaned up and touched up,but it is obvious that this car is untampered.

Car two was a total basket case prior to restoration.when the car was first aquirred,it was a tube chasis race car,but by some miricale,the original drivetrain and front subframe were found in some other guys car and that guy happily returned it to the restoration effort.The repairs to this car involved replacing the entire floorpan/rear structure from the toeboards to the tailpanel with parts cut from a donor car.The car has 2 new 1/4's,2 doors from another car,as well as 2 donor fenders,the interior has almost all replacement parts,and while everything is dated correctly,it is known that none of the parts are actually original to this car.As a plus for this car,the substaintially repaired undercarrage was detailed to perfection during the restoration in an effort to cover up the massive job that was done.

With both cars side by side.Which one would you rather own?

[Rick H]

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With both cars side by side.Which one would you rather own?

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I quess it all depends on which seller throws out the less http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

Originality wins out.

Rick H.

[PeteLeathersac]

If this hypothetical race car is a ZL1 and with a well known and racing successful history, perhaps after the "original" recreation ZL1 is finished and sold for 2.5M, the tube chassis and enough of the remains of the project would be available to rebuild back into the race car again, tagless or some variation using "enough" of the original race car?

[djunod]

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With both cars side by side.Which one would you rather own?

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There are still too many variables... price? intended use?

The completely recreated car would be worth more if you intended to drive the car.

The original car would be worth more if you are a "collector".

[Belair62]

Personal preference I guess....would you buy a known rebody COPO that was sold as a set of tags if it was rebodied with a nice original base car ?

[SamLBInj]

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Personal preference I guess....would you buy a known rebody COPO that was sold as a set of tags if it was rebodied with a nice original base car ?

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Depends on price..key word is "known"

[Racefan]

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Personal preference I guess....would you buy a known rebody COPO that was sold as a set of tags if it was rebodied with a nice original base car ?

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That is my question exactly. Add to that, if I were going to buy such a car would anyone here who knew the history of said car tell me that it was a nice set of tags on a clean plain jane body?

[Belair62]

I would think you would hear opinions at least...

[njsteve]

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I would think you would hear opinions at least...

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And i think the most final opinion would be from your local or Federal law enforcement officer who would seize the car based on the VIN swap. Regardless of whether you would be prosecuted, you would lose the car and everything you had invested in it. It would never be returned and most likely would be scrapped based upon its contraband illegal status: a car with a known history of VIN tampering cannot be placed back in circulation.

[Racefan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would think you would hear opinions at least...

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And i think the most final opinion would be from your local or Federal law enforcement officer who would seize the car based on the VIN swap. Regardless of whether you would be prosecuted, you would lose the car and everything you had invested in it. It would never be returned and most likely would be scrapped based upon its contraband illegal status: a car with a known history of VIN tampering cannot be placed back in circulation.

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Anyone else willing to stand up and admit they know what car I am talking about?

[BARN FIND]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would think you would hear opinions at least...

[/ QUOTE ]

And i think the most final opinion would be from your local or Federal law enforcement officer who would seize the car based on the VIN swap. Regardless of whether you would be prosecuted, you would lose the car and everything you had invested in it. It would never be returned and most likely would be scrapped based upon its contraband illegal status: a car with a known history of VIN tampering cannot be placed back in circulation.

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Anyone else willing to stand up and admit they know what car I am talking about?

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Do I get 7 guesses?

[jfkheat]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Personal preference I guess....would you buy a known rebody COPO that was sold as a set of tags if it was rebodied with a nice original base car ?

[/ QUOTE ]

That is my question exactly. Add to that, if I were going to buy such a car would anyone here who knew the history of said car tell me that it was a nice set of tags on a clean plain jane body?

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I think it depends on who the seller of said car was.
James

[Belair62]

"hearing" and "knowing" are 2 different animals...

[RichSchmidt]

Actually cars with known VIN tampering are almost always put back into circulation as long as they are in otherwise good working order.The govenment removes the bogus tag and installs a brand new government issue VIN plate that identifies the car as having a VIN change.The also do this with any drug or crime seized car that they sell with a clean title since nobody would by one of those infamous "$200 Ferarris" from the police auction if they thought that the criminal could track the car down and retalliate against them for buying the car.I also know that if you have an early car with a missing VIN and no title,the state will issue a new VIN tag with a new number on it and a new title after they investigate the car to make sure it isnt stolen.My friend looked into this when he got harrassed by a state trooper when his 65 chevelle puked the engine on the side of the highway.The cop asked him for paperwork,and then went to check the numbers against the VIN on th car and neither the cop nor my friend could find the VIN tag.The cop allowed him to tow the car home,and informed him of how to get a tag issued,but the car was a rust bucket hot rod and my friend just parted it out.Another friend of mine bought his own car back with a new VIN after it was confiscated for being tagged.It turns out that he got busted at the street races in the early 90's,and it seems that his car was reported stolen back in about 1972{back when my friend was about 4 years old},and the car ended up tagged and led a long life until it got impounded in the 90's.The car was a nice car,so the state issued a new VIN and my friend had a friend with a dealer liscence go and buy the car for a few hundred bucks from the auction,and he was back in his own old car legit by the end of the year.The cops pretty much told him that had it been under any other circumstances,he could have proactivly inquired about his cars questionable history before he got into trouble and more likely then not he would have been issued a new VIN and get to the keep the car after maybe paying some legal fees and squaring up with the insurance company or the previous owner or whoever.But since the car was impounded in a big street race crackdown,he didnt have as much leverage when it came to getting his car back.The really bad part is that on all the reissued cars I know of,the cops also removed the trim tag and destroyed as many of the original VIN numbers as possible.This makes documenting a supercar with a reissued VIN even harder.Another friend of mine has a reissed VIN from 1971 when he bought is RS/SS 396/375 4 speed 67 camaro from an insurance auction after it was recovered from a chop shop in 1970 as a freshly done tag job.His car has no trim tag,but it is the real deal.

So anything can be fixed if you play nice with the cops.

[Racefan]

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"hearing" and "knowing" are 2 different animals...

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Agreed, Bob. I would hope that people who had heard about it would contact me and tell me about the murmurings that would be occuring behind my back about said vehicle (please keep in mind that I am not actually trying to solicit responses as I am not purchasing the car-- just trying to illicit thought). I will drop the subject now, as the goal has been accomplsihed-- just to get people thinking about how wrong selling trim/VIN tags really is. It may seem like a crime without a victim, but there will certainly always be a victim somewhere down the line. This kind of thing is ALWAYS going to happen given the $$ amounts we are dealing with. However, if we stick together and let people know there may be suspicions or whatever......then prospective buyers can search a little further/deeper to prove a particular car (such as somparing hidden VINs). That is all I am saying/asking of the community.