69 Camaro Body in the Crate [Archive]

whitetop

11-02-2005, 06:30 PM

There was some things about the body I did not like.

The metal convertible bows/top for instance. In several of the pics with the top up the curvature just did not seem right. It did not have that classic 67-69 look. Kinda like a cheap Ertl $40 diecast. The basic look is there but you know something is just not right

I also wonder about the final fit and finish. Hot Rod did their best to smooze over this and protect their advertisor. Go to Dynacorn's site under the "Joe Parts" Q&A. People are always complaining about the fit of the Dynacorn parts-even the stuff that has recently come out. For instance the mustang door shells they make are known in mustang circles to be horrendous. I have seen them in pics posted on mustang sites and "remedies" people have to do to make them fit. I'm talking mig welding on extra metal because they are shorter than the factory doors.

Joe Parts answer to them is always "We have not heard that before" (yeah right)or "one defective piece may have gotten through" etc etc.

I also saw the Dynacorns Mustang convertible frame rails on display at Spring Carlisle. The look was there as much as I could tell but man where they thin. After repairing the ftrame rails in my car I could feel that they were thinner.

Canucklehead

11-02-2005, 07:25 PM

Is this the same Camaro that sold at BJ earlier this year?, the green with the white stripes?. If it was that car just did'nt look right. If thats what their going to sell, great!!, it would be easy to tell the difference.

musclecarjohn

11-02-2005, 08:15 PM

I think we as Camaro enthusiasts should embrace this "new" Camaro,not wish for it to be inferior to our cars.

It obviously isn't going to go away and as with anything new,there are kinks that need to be worked out.

All this car can do for our hobby with all the extra attention it brings to an original 36 year-old design is
make the originals appreciate even faster than they normally would...if you can attach any kind of "normal" appreciation to a 1969 Camaro...and it's related parts. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

I personally can't wait for the hardtops to follow with all the hot tuners out there.

The 1969 Camaro lives on.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

Bill Pritchard

11-03-2005, 12:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
They had one of those new Camaro bodies at Pavillions last weekend...We looked at it pretty closely.

[/ QUOTE ]

That we did. I inquired of the representative who had it on display there as to how the car would be titled/registered. She said the body is considered a "replacement part" and so if you already had an original car for which you were "replacing" the body, it is legal to swap the VIN and Trim Tags. That's pretty much the answer I figured I was gonna get http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

njsteve

11-03-2005, 12:13 AM

Mr. T

11-03-2005, 12:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I inquired of the representative who had it on display there as to how the car would be titled/registered. She said the body is considered a "replacement part" and so if you already had an original car for which you were "replacing" the body, it is legal to swap the VIN and Trim Tags. That's pretty much the answer I figured I was gonna get http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I knew that would be the kind of answer you would receive Bill. I was just waiting for someone to come forth and say it. This opens up a VERY big can of worms, for me anyway! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif This type of stupidity really burns my A$$!

firstgenaddict

11-03-2005, 12:26 AM

I'm sure that someone is watching this thread and where those bodies go very Carefully! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

nuch_ss396

11-03-2005, 01:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure that someone is watching this thread and where those bodies go very Carefully! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Suddenly, the importance of the original trim & VIN tags
will become a hot topic on eBay and let's all watch how the
prices soar on those........ http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

Steve

Pantera

11-03-2005, 02:30 AM

I understand that there is a federal law that says if the original vin # is removed for any reason you have to file for a state assigned #. You can get into big trouble if you change it. At least that is the legal answer I recieved here in OKla.

Changing a vin #, even onto a new part is against the law. There are bound to be some big problems arrise over this one.
Someone is bound to screw it up for everyone trying to scam someone out of thier hard earned money.

Pantera

Belair62

11-03-2005, 03:47 AM

I'm sure someone will document the many differences between the Fisher bodies and these new ones...at least I hope someone will...there has to be a ton of differences...

Xplantdad

11-03-2005, 05:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They had one of those new Camaro bodies at Pavillions last weekend...We looked at it pretty closely.

[/ QUOTE ]

That we did. I inquired of the representative who had it on display there as to how the car would be titled/registered. She said the body is considered a "replacement part" and so if you already had an original car for which you were "replacing" the body, it is legal to swap the VIN and Trim Tags. That's pretty much the answer I figured I was gonna get http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Bill, didn't she put a "mini" disclaimer in her statement saying that that way the law in Arizona...or something to that effect? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Hey...you guessed who the mystery guest at Pavillions was last weekend...it was you! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Mark_C

11-03-2005, 06:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I understand that there is a federal law that says if the original vin # is removed for any reason you have to file for a state assigned #. You can get into big trouble if you change it. At least that is the legal answer I recieved here in OKla.

Changing a vin #, even onto a new part is against the law. There are bound to be some big problems arrise over this one.
Someone is bound to screw it up for everyone trying to scam someone out of thier hard earned money.

Pantera

[/ QUOTE ]

No it's not illegal. The replacement body is considered a repair part similar to a quarter panel or full floor section.

Reference USC title 18 section 511 sub section (b)(1)

"(b)(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a
removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person
specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection ( unless such person knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).

(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection are -

(A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle
demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to such vehicle or part;

 (B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;

(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law;

and

(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device by -
(i) the owner or his authorized agent; 

(ii) applicable State or local law; or

(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.

http://uscode.house.gov/uscode-cgi/fastweb.exe?getdoc+uscview+t17t20+368+0++%28%29%20 %20%2

Good discussion (one of many) took place on this subject on Camaros.net just about a year ago.

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=54260

RichSchmidt

11-03-2005, 06:46 AM

The New Camaros are dimensionally the same as the old ones.Aside from the already mentioned issue of incorrectly contoured convertable top bows,the body should be externally identical to an actual production car.The oval side marker lights on the show car are option,but the base body comes prepared to look like a production car.The first major difference that will help distinguish these cars from originlas is that some body assemblies that were orginally multi piece units with welded construction have been consolidated into single stamping components.Because of this,the reproduction car will be missing some seams and welds that were found on the original cars.Some of the undercarrage details and contours might not be as crisp on the repop as the original,but for the most part a side by side comparision would be needed to really show the difference.Other then that,these cars are supposed to be as close to original as possible.They are certaily closer to the real deal then any fiberglass 32 Ford body ever was.

rpoz11

11-03-2005, 09:01 AM

In California, a non original issued chassis gets an assigned DMV tag that represents a VIN for a frame, for example.
Shouldn't each and every one of these shells be assigned a permanent ID # that D.O.T can reference to prior to the release of these?
A HD frame made aftermarket can get one, every COBRA aftermerket body should have one; why wouldnt the US Gov't insist on enforcing a numbering system that can be used in a database for each and everyone of the units being brought into the US?

For example, a friend just purchased a remanufactured Farm Tractor, it had serial #'s present on the unit and was allowed US entry! A pefectly simple and useful system to keep records on the such.
Law Enforcement would have a COW if they had to establish this built car in the event of a drug raid, to identify this shell with an original GM/D.O.T. assigned but unable to locate the correct VIN locations behind the heater, frame, and other applicable areas!
This is not the end of the world on these shells!
Something is going to have to happen on assigning ID numberings for every one of these units prior to public release, or liability will be beyond comprhension(sp) in the event of a serious situation arising!

Look, GM was put into the position to assign the numbering system that we know of it today; Our US Gov't wouldnt allow GM to build chassis' without proper authorization! Why would OUR Gov't not do this with these, even now???????? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

It's one thing to stamp out the panels , sections,etc individually; it's another thing to assemble all seperate stampings into a shell such as these where most of us dont have an assmbly line to do so, thus FORD, GM Chrysler, etc etc etc.....
Where is the line drawn? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Mark_C

11-03-2005, 02:17 PM

According to the law the line is drawn when the "vehicle" is able to propel itself down the road. The shell is not a vehicle as defined by federal, therefore in the eyes of the law it is no different than a quarter panel, or fender.

Rick H

11-03-2005, 04:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Shouldn't each and every one of these shells be assigned a permanent ID # that D.O.T can reference to prior to the release of these?

[/ QUOTE ]

The completed shells have an "ID" number stamped in four different locations.

Rick H.

Belair62

11-03-2005, 06:08 PM

Bingo ! thats the kind of info people will need in the future...along with the areas of different manufacturing techniques.

JTH74

11-03-2005, 08:01 PM

They are supposed to be releasing the coupe the same time as the SEMA show or shortly after.

musclecarjohn

11-03-2005, 11:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
They are supposed to be releasing the coupe the same time as the SEMA show or shortly after.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I'm waiting to see...

njsteve

11-03-2005, 11:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
According to the law the line is drawn when the "vehicle" is able to propel itself down the road. The shell is not a vehicle as defined by federal, therefore in the eyes of the law it is no different than a quarter panel, or fender.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have a Federal or State statute that you can refer us to that codifies this?

Pantera

11-04-2005, 12:01 AM

I can see this is a bag of worms and I am glad that I am not going to be one that will be caught up in it.

This has the potential for disaster as each state has a different way to look at this. I know if you remove a Vin # around here you better not get caught putting it on something else. Even if it is the original car it came off of. You could get a couple of years to study your mistake courtesy of the state.

The is no difinative fed law that will allow it to be done on a complete body. The problem with Fed law is each person/state can intertept it the way that fits thier need best.

What will you do if when you replace the entire body you become liable for EPA, crash tests, smog, and all the other crappy rules that the goverment imposes on the new car builders.

This is not just a "Repair Part" but a entire safety structure of a auto and in essense it will wind up a "NEW AUTO"!!!! Then what if the feds deem it needs all the Goverment crap including crash testing and all that sorta crap. Big $$$$$$$ I would hate to have that much tied up in a car and have that come back to haunt me 5/10 years down the line. If you sold it and had already spent the money, then where would you be?

Pantera

Mark_C

11-04-2005, 02:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
According to the law the line is drawn when the "vehicle" is able to propel itself down the road. The shell is not a vehicle as defined by federal, therefore in the eyes of the law it is no different than a quarter panel, or fender.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have a Federal or State statute that you can refer us to that codifies this?

[/ QUOTE ]

Third page of this thread, top reply by me:

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/97426/page/0/fpart/3/vc/1

Heres the entire section dealing with VIN tampering, and the referenced defintions section from that post.

US Code Title 18 Section 511: Note Sections (B),(C), and (D) of Paragrah (2)

Section 511. Altering or removing motor vehicle identification numbers

(a) A person who -
(1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters anidentification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part;
or
(2) with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle, knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years,
or both.
(b)(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).
(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection are -
(A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to such vehicle or part;
(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;
(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law; and
(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device by -
(i) the owner or his authorized agent;
(ii) applicable State or local law; or
(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.
(c) As used in this section, the term -
(1) ''identification number'' means a number or symbol that is inscribed or affixed for purposes of identification under chapter 301 and part C of subtitle VI of title 49;
(2) ''motor vehicle'' has the meaning given that term in section 32101 of title 49;
(3) ''motor vehicle demolisher'' means a person, including any motor vehicle dismantler or motor vehicle recycler, who is engaged in the business of reducing motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts to metallic scrap that is unsuitable for use as either a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle part;
(4) ''motor vehicle scrap processor'' means a person -
(A) who is engaged in the business of purchasing motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts for reduction to metallic scrap for recycling;
(B) who, from a fixed location, uses machinery to process metallic scrap into prepared grades; and
(C) whose principal product is metallic scrap for recycling;
but such term does not include any activity of any such person relating to the recycling of a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle part as a used motor vehicle or a used motor vehicle part.
(d) For purposes of subsection (a) of this section, the term ''tampers with'' includes covering a program decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act for the purpose of obstructing its visibility.

Definitions of "Motor Vehicle" per Section 32101 of Title 49 referenced above:

(7) ''motor vehicle'' means a vehicle driven or drawn by mechanical power and manufactured primarily for use on public streets, roads, and highways, but does not include a vehicle operated only on a rail line.

(10) ''passenger motor vehicle'' means a motor vehicle with
motive power designed to carry not more than 12 individuals, but does not include -
(A) a motorcycle; or
(B) a truck not designed primarily to carry its operator or passengers.

(11) ''passenger motor vehicle equipment'' means -
(A) a system, part, or component of a passenger motor vehicle as originally made;
(B) a similar part or component made or sold for replacement or improvement of a system, part, or component, or as an accessory or addition to a passenger motor vehicle; or
(C) a device made or sold for use in towing a passenger motor vehicle.

Rick H

11-04-2005, 02:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is not just a "Repair Part" but a entire safety structure of a auto and in essense it will wind up a "NEW AUTO"!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

After finding a rusted out hulk of a Yenko, BM or other Super Car (ID'd by paperwork, tags etc..) and then spend 10's of thousands of dollars rounding up the correct parts, NOS metal, correctly dated driveline (or rebuild what is there), then spend $100k or more restoring it to concours level, don't you essentially end up with a "new car"?? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

To be honest I don't care how people restore their cars, it's not my place to tell them. In my opinion they can restore it the way they want and if they can sleep at night and live with it so be it.

Rick H.

tom406

11-04-2005, 09:49 AM

Great issue of HOT ROD. I love it when it actually takes longer than 5 minutes to blow through an issue. CAR CRAFT and ROD AND CUSTOM have been backsliding lately, though, IMO.

A few points:

1. As for passing one off as a real car, I think BelAir's got it right. Soon people will post the differences. Besides the size of the panels and consolidation of some, the size and stamping performance of the presses is much different between GM 1969 and Taiwan 2005. I'm sure they've tried to hide the differences, but they should be there with some digging.

2. The VIN# and titling issues are going to depend on the state you live in and who you are cozy with at the DMV. It's really not going to be any different than what the street rodders with repop '29/'32/'34/'37/'39/'40 Fords are going through. HOT ROD talks about some of the state to state variations. Some will be done with titles of parts cars. Some will be pulled out of thin air with fresh Alabama titles or the like (could identity theft of cars become a problem?). Some will be titled as 2005 or 2006 homebuilts. It will run the gamut, based upon state laws and peoples creativity.

3. Next time you're at a street rod meet, ask a few guys where their VIN number is. You'll be shocked at how many of those pre-'49 hot rods have NO DISCERNIBLE VIN NUMBER anywhere on them. Some of the Fords only had the VIN on the frame (which is defaced or lost when the new V8 and IFS is put in, or lost entirely when an aftermarket frame is built) Others have tags spot welded to the cowl or door pillar which is lost when the body is dipped or removed for painting and never put back on. I can't tell you how many cars I've appraised, cars with years of work and $30 to 100K invested in them, that have absolutely no ID marks relating them to the title that supposedly binds them to the owner. I gently remind these guys that if the car is stolen and recovered, just how are the police supposed to know its theirs? I also pass on writing anything up for them until they get the issue sorted out.

4. Finally, I'm a big '69 Camaro fan and a general fan of the Pro Touring movement, when executed properly. But that green "HOT ROD 1" car is one of the ugliest '69's I've seen. After all that work I'd be upset with the result. Visually, nothing on that car works for me-the color, the stripes, the green grill surround, the satin wheels-nothing. I know they wanted something that would stand out in the sea of red cars, but man, that just isn't the way.

SamLBInj

11-04-2005, 06:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]

(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;

[/ QUOTE ]
This one kinda covers a pretty broad range of things...Where do you draw the line on "reasonably" http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

Pantera

11-05-2005, 01:07 AM

Yes in a way you do wind up with a almost new "OLD CAR" but it is still the original car that it started life as. As such it is entitled to have the factory vin # affixed.

What I have been instructed by Auto Thief dectives here you can replace just about every part of a car but the doo piller post/dash that the vin # is/was originally attached to. I was cautioned to not destroy the firewall and or dash/door post where the hidden vin and the visable vin # was attached or I would have to file for a rebuilt state assigned vin # and would not be allowed to re-affix the original vin on to any aftermarket (IE:Not the original)body panel.

Now back to the subject of a totally new body that is not even manfactured in the US. What would you do if a few years after you built up a car and had it on the road and the feds captured it and would not release it, till you summited the crash and other federaly required documents since they deemed it a NEW CAR because the majority of it was built in 2005??? I would hate to have my money tied up in that. Someone could loose big time. Imagne having to watch it go into a auto crusher because you could not comply ($$$$)with thier demands.

I have been down this road in the past and have lost a nice 69 Z-28 because it was previously stolen and the vin # was changed. Could not get it back and the cops gave it to the last owner. We had a nice 65 vette that we sold to Bill Moch a collector near here and he found the frame # did not match the vin that had been changed and the cops kept that one too because it was a stolen car. I realize this is not the same thing as doing this to a legal car but trust me you have no idea just how big a hassle it can be to deal with local law enforcment sometimes. I was a used car dealer at the time and inocently bought these cars but I still lost on the deal.

Trust me, They don't have to do it your way and they and the feds have some funny ways of looking at these kind of deals.

I have a 60k mi 84 vette setting in the middle of my shop right now that was bought by a banker and he chishled the vin off and stole another car and put the vin # on it. Then he got caught driving it and went to jail. I was cleared of any involvment in the deal but they would not let me have the original vin # off the stolen car so I could replace it on my legal car. I was declaired the righfull owner of the car but to put it back on the street I will have to file for a state assigned Vin #. I knew that, back when I got the car and was planing on building a very radical custom car so the original vin would have not been a detriment. It just took the best part of a year for it to get cleared for me and I gave up on the project. IF anybody wants it for $2500 contact me. It is hit in front.

Pantera

amuseme

11-05-2005, 07:49 AM

Let's face it, the only parts of a car that I.D. it as "that car" are the areas where the VIN itself is stamped. Cut those out and weld them into the corresponding areas on a better body and, bodaboom-bodabing, instant rust-free survivor. Whether it's right or wrong is up to you,but you haven't technically removed the VIN, since it's still connected to the "car". What's your definition of "car" or "automobile"? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

njsteve

11-05-2005, 05:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Let's face it, the only parts of a car that I.D. it as "that car" are the areas where the VIN itself is stamped. Cut those out and weld them into the corresponding areas on a better body and, bodaboom-bodabing, instant rust-free survivor. Whether it's right or wrong is up to you,but you haven't technically removed the VIN, since it's still connected to the "car". What's your definition of "car" or "automobile"? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Your described procedure would absolutely be a felony under federal law. Not even a maybe. Eventually someone would find out, and if the info got to an interested law enforcement type, you would lose the car, it would be confiscated and if you were the person who did the switching you would be prosecuted as well. I am telling you this from a "legal beagle" standpoint, having worked on some of these types of cases. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

Mark_C

11-05-2005, 08:06 PM

I would assume that's only true if you transfer those peices of sheetmetal to another "vehicle". Since by definition these body tubs are not vehicles in themselves, but "passenger motor vehicle equipment" by the referenced code above.

njsteve

11-05-2005, 10:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would assume that's only true if you transfer those peices of sheetmetal to another "vehicle". Since by definition these body tubs are not vehicles in themselves, but "passenger motor vehicle equipment" by the referenced code above.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont mean to sound pompous on this subject matter but legally, I know what I'm talking about. The simple statutory definitions you cite do not hold any weight as precedent. You may reasonably believe that a common sense interpretation of them would support your position but unfortunately it does not. Case law is what the Court would have to base their opinion upon. And this is a new, unexplored, legal territory. Someone is going to have to be the "test case guniea pig" on this matter. I would not want to be the person who rivets their old VIN and firewall tag on one of these bodies and then tries to slip it through their local motor vehicle inspection station. You're bound to run into an inspector who knows about these new replacement bodies and then seizes the car as evidence of VIN tampering. Until some revision to the existing Federal Stautes is created, I think the only way to register one of them properly would be to apply for a state issued VIN number, just like the street rod builders do.

Then again, that's just my completely unbiased, semi-official, $500 an hour, legal opinion. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif Now where do I send my bill to?

ANDY M

11-05-2005, 11:49 PM

Charley? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif Belair? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

olredalert

11-06-2005, 12:24 AM

NJSteve,

-------I can see some of what you are saying, but what inspector is going to look at your new body if you already own and have titled to you the old one? Heck, if the old rust-bucket is even plated how will anyone know to look. I dont think doing this kind of a switch is of interest to me but I cant see, under my criteria, where the problem would be, at least here in MI.!!!............Bill S

njsteve

11-06-2005, 01:20 AM

Through my travels I have met quite a few motor state vehicle managers, employees, inspectors, etc. They are briefed on new issues relating to motor vehicle fraud quite frequently. They are aware of these new bodies and I imagine they are waiting for the first one to show up with a 1969 VIN tag attached to it, and then they'll have to deal with it in person. I just wouldn't want to be the guy who just sunk $50K into a repro-bodied car that might just get confiscated while the whole process gets sorted out through the courts.

Hey, when do I get my own http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/BelairSucks.gif, http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/CharleySucks.gif, sign? It can read "Damn Lawyers Suck"

Mark_C

11-06-2005, 02:42 AM

Well we'll just have to wait and see.

Here comes the coupe version. The prototype is at the SEMA show now. Supposed to retail somewhere between 10 and 13K.
http://www.littooy.com/hans/archives/SEMA%202005%20016.jpg

njsteve

11-06-2005, 03:05 AM

All legal arguing aside, that is still totally amazing! I wonder if they are going to dip them in an E-coating instead of merely spray primering them?

rpoz11

11-06-2005, 06:04 AM

Now that I can see the actual dash panel having the DOT GM VIN locations present, this disturbes me even more! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

Seems to me ever more each day that all of us who have the original cars still left to get onto an authorized responsible Registry!
We should get this done before all of the low lifers with bad intentions, aka that Canadian joker Charley outed, get that bird flu thats going around and try to fake some orignal cars, before it's tooooo late! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

Carrol Shelby ran into some problems with the so called few remaining AC bodies he had left over(??? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif ) not too long ago...whatever occured with him attempting to title and register those bodies as actual original cars?

Do we anywhere on this board have an Attorney and a Law Enforcement employee with sufficient credibility who could offer up some real time answers on these reproduction bodies?
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

njsteve

11-06-2005, 06:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Do we anywhere on this board have an Attorney and a Law Enforcement employee with sufficient credibility who could offer up some real time answers on these reproduction bodies?
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Go back a page and re-read. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

amuseme

11-06-2005, 07:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Let's face it, the only parts of a car that I.D. it as "that car" are the areas where the VIN itself is stamped. Cut those out and weld them into the corresponding areas on a better body and, bodaboom-bodabing, instant rust-free survivor. Whether it's right or wrong is up to you,but you haven't technically removed the VIN, since it's still connected to the "car". What's your definition of "car" or "automobile"? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Your described procedure would absolutely be a felony under federal law. Not even a maybe. Eventually someone would find out, and if the info got to an interested law enforcement type, you would lose the car, it would be confiscated and if you were the person who did the switching you would be prosecuted as well. I am telling you this from a "legal beagle" standpoint, having worked on some of these types of cases. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[/ QUOTE ] First, I want to make it clear that I wouldn't do this, I have a real Z28 and this practice could hurt me like anyone else. I don't doubt you njsteve, I'm confident you know the law,(Lord knows the average lay-person can't understand it...a topic for another day!), but your response begs the question....how much of a car does the law consider "a car"?

Belair62

11-06-2005, 08:16 AM

There will be big differences ..it's gotta say Made in Taiwan somewhere http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

rpoz11

11-06-2005, 12:11 PM

Yes BelAir!
And...where in fact will it say that ON the body in face value!

Y1's intent was innocent I am sure at first, but we can all see the writing on the wall with this shell....Threw this idea at a family member older than I and she suggested that it was only time before a fraud car evolves!
This has got to be stopped or better yet, more ID stamping present to prevent fake cars! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

gemleeus

11-06-2005, 03:17 PM

I agree with belair, there has to be some differences, although it probably won't prevent fraud. i would imagine it would cost someone more to try and make it LOOK original than what it will be worth. those they don't know any better will be the ones to get taken. imo

70 copo

11-06-2005, 03:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do we anywhere on this board have an Attorney and a Law Enforcement employee with sufficient credibility who could offer up some real time answers on these reproduction bodies?
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Go back a page and re-read. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Steve,

Very neat topic indeed! Question for you: I just got an out of state vehicle inspected by a certified state inspector who was directly employed by the state DMV. The inspection was little more than a glance at the vin number and the title. Nothing else was checked.

Now lets assume that the "body gestapo" inspectors are being trained someplace out there right now.....

That would tell me that there is some standardized process of inspection that is a result of or has been derived from state or federal law someplace Right?

Why don't you locate just one of these this statutes, and a corresponding legal opinion that have been upheld in one court case on this very topic.

I just want to be real sure that we are not mixing opinion in this thread from statutes designed to preclude auto chop shops (stolen cars) from VIN# switching.

VIN# switching- where the body and its parts are stolen and a new VIN# is assigned with the intent to cover the theft.

The application of this lawmaking would be designed to convict auto theft chop shop operators.

So I am left to ponder the applicability of such a law to a ligitimate auto restoration processes or custom car builder applications where ownership of the vehicle/Title/parts is not at all in question.

Heck Just post a link to one case. Educate us!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Phil

njsteve

11-06-2005, 04:30 PM

Unfortunately this situation falls into that fraud statute. This is one of those areas where technology has advanced farther than the law. The drafters of the laws never imagined that someone would recreate an exact copy of a long extinct car and sell it on the open market for repair purposes. It is quite literally "Jurassic Park meets Perry Mason." (Quick, someone with PhotoShop create me an image of this)

70 copo

11-06-2005, 06:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Let's face it, the only parts of a car that I.D. it as "that car" are the areas where the VIN itself is stamped. Cut those out and weld them into the corresponding areas on a better body and, bodaboom-bodabing, instant rust-free survivor. Whether it's right or wrong is up to you,but you haven't technically removed the VIN, since it's still connected to the "car". What's your definition of "car" or "automobile"? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Your described procedure would absolutely be a felony under federal law. Not even a maybe. Eventually someone would find out, and if the info got to an interested law enforcement type, you would lose the car, it would be confiscated and if you were the person who did the switching you would be prosecuted as well. I am telling you this from a "legal beagle" standpoint, having worked on some of these types of cases. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Right -- I see your point, but since you are the subject matter expert on this topic, I was hoping you could point us to some supporting case law, a law, statute, regulation, (federal or State) or even guidance to help us wade through this complex issue.

Your assistance is greatly appreciated http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Phil

Belair62

11-06-2005, 07:07 PM

Guys I assume the folks who commissioned these bodys did their homework and they are legal to make and sell....in the hands of hobbyists (?) is where any fraud would take place...documenting areas of differences will be the most important thing...they are here so it's not going to stop..it's going to be like trim tags from here on out...if people know the differences in the structure they will try and make those more correct too.

Canucklehead

11-07-2005, 07:52 PM

Did'nt Boyd Coddington just get spanked for vin tampering with a bunch of some other guys? Something about vinning some new customs with old vins to get around the insurance and government regulations. That guy gets oilerier the more i read about him!!

olredalert

11-08-2005, 03:04 AM

--------I dont think it was insurance and govt regs as much as simply no one wanting to pay sales tax on the true price of a bunch of very expensive custom built cars..........Bill S

Pantera

11-09-2005, 12:12 AM

Thanks nysteve for setting that straight. I almost got caught up in a problem like that and I was trying to warn these guys that they could be setting themselfs up for big problems if they change a factory vin # on to something like this.

The feds are just not too easy to get along with when they think you have done something wrong.

Pantera

njsteve

11-09-2005, 02:44 AM

No problem! I'd rather give everyone some free, accurate legal advice now, and prevent some BIG heartaches (and legal bills) later.

RichSchmidt

11-09-2005, 03:53 AM

But the makers of this body are still insisting that the entire body itself is just a "replacment panel" to repair rust damage.As I have stated before.Some repaired original cars end up with not much more then about 20 pounds of original metal clippings holding together 1000 pounds of replacment panels.When you are talking about repaired originals that needed every part expet the windshield frame replaced,how is it still an original car anyway.They repop the upper firewall panels,the frame rais and everything else.Even if you fixed an original,there is a good chance it wouldnt have any hidden VIN's when you were done.

As for rebodies,they are legal with 32 fords.A friend of mine bought a full real steel car with a rusty body and a good frame.He put a glass body on it and registered it with the VIN numebrs off the frame.That is totally legal and the DMV had no issue with it.Boyd was using VIN's on cars that didnt have even have a scrap of metal with the original VIN on them.

americanmusclecars

11-09-2005, 04:50 PM

The body panels are E-coated. However, before they can be spot-welded together the E-coat must be removed to assure complete metal contact on both ends of the spot welder to make a perfect weld. Upon completion the car will then be primed or sent as is if so requested by end user.

americanmusclecars

11-09-2005, 05:15 PM

What differences do you expect to see between a Fisher body and a Dyna-corn Camaro body? A camaro was shipped to Taiwan, dis-assembled and then reversed engineered and the body panels were duplicated.

camarojoe

11-09-2005, 05:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What differences do you expect to see between a Fisher body and a Dyna-corn Camaro body? A camaro was shipped to Taiwan, dis-assembled and then reversed engineered and the body panels were duplicated.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably more differences than you can even count... Are there ANY Taiwan Camaro reproduction parts (even small ones) that a trained/experienced eye can't distiguish from real GM? If there are, its a short list. I highly doubt there will be much trouble identifying a complete Taiwan body of over 800 of these repro pieces welded together.

americanmusclecars

11-09-2005, 06:47 PM

Such as? Give an example. I have had original GM body parts that have not fit well at all. There is going to be a difference in parts when the tooling is new and after it has stamped out 20000 parts, whether the tooling belongs to GM or Taiwan. There are alot of American companies working with Taiwan to improve the quality of the parts and the accurancy of the fit. There Foundries are alot more sopisticated than given credit for. Not to mentioned the biggest company is also behind this project because they have licensed the body......GM

camarojoe

11-09-2005, 06:54 PM

1/4 panels, fenders, trunk lids, cowl induction hoods, weatherstrip, rocker moldings, bumpers, door handles, window cranks, dash carriers, seat trim, etc...(i'm sure many folks can add to this list) Every one of these items have visual and structural (and ofter fitment) differences between repro and original GM parts. I agree original GM stuff isnt always perfect, nor are over the counter pieces from GM always identical to factory installed stuff. Just saying its not gonna be hard to ID a repro body from a GM one.

americanmusclecars

11-09-2005, 07:49 PM

As far as sheet-metal, there are American companies working with Taiwan to improve the fit and quaility of parts mentioned. Weatherstrip are also being improved and is offered in a latex that is better fitting. We just test fitted 68 Camaro full Q-panels and the fit has improved 100%. Some of the parts mentioned do have certain problems that are being corrected by increasing QC with American companies that are in the industry test fitting parts and assisting in visual correctness also. I just think with original parts slowing running out and if you do find some the price is usually unaffordable. We need to welcome the parts but let Taiwan know we want better QC and hopefully American companies will continue to help.

Hotrodpaul

11-09-2005, 09:14 PM

I agree, the Chinese are getting better every day and who knows, may surpass us in the near future if we rest on our laurels.

Paul

x44d80

11-10-2005, 01:16 AM

I've used a few of these parts and the biggest complaint I had is that they are thinner than GM. The door panels need reinforcment behind the handles or you'll push the handles in to much when closing the door which could cause your paint to crack. Over at www.Camaros.net (http://www.Camaros.net) there are tons of complaints of fitment for quarters, doors, hoods etc...

Belair62

11-10-2005, 04:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I just think with original parts slowing running out and if you do find some the price is usually unaffordable.

[/ QUOTE ] Thats for sure....wasn't there an American company that could accomplish this ? Probably not...or was it a financial decision ?

Salvatore

11-10-2005, 04:27 AM

Heartbeat City has some very nice sheetmetal. American Made!! I give Jim credit for that.

americanmusclecars

11-10-2005, 05:52 AM

When any sheetmetal does not fit well it is immediately thought the part is faulty. When in fact alot of the problems are with the car itself. Sometimes the quarter panel you are trying to install is not the problem its the parts you are trying to install it to. The Camaro is over 30 years old and have been raced, wrecked, weathered and who knows what else. The other problem I see is that any installer with a 110 welder thinks there a bodyman. Look, Im not saying the parts are perfect, But a good restoration shop (not a paint/body shop) can insure a proper fit and correct for any appearance failures. Again, with proper guidance from American companies and better QC you will see these parts continue to improve.

68l30

11-10-2005, 07:06 AM

I'll take my hat off to anyone putting one of these puzzels together...Your gonna need a straight jacket or the patience of a saint to see a repop Camaro to completion.

I shoot fire from my eye's after 5 min with a set of interior piller posts or whatever POS repop part....Not for me....Never

The market is out there. They will sell as many as they make,just not to a group of purists.......

Could make a nice winter beater though...... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

Steve http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Late BrakeU2

11-10-2005, 08:54 AM

The first one hits ebay!
http://cgi.ebay.com/CREATIVE-MASTERS-196...1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/CREATIVE-MASTERS-1969-YELLOW-Z-28-CAMARO_W0QQitemZ6987783225QQcategoryZ7316QQrdZ1QQc mdZViewItem)
Those Taiwan gaps are nasty http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif!

70 copo

11-10-2005, 02:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
1/4 panels, fenders, trunk lids, cowl induction hoods, weatherstrip, rocker moldings, bumpers, door handles, window cranks, dash carriers, seat trim, etc...(i'm sure many folks can add to this list) Every one of these items have visual and structural (and ofter fitment) differences between repro and original GM parts. I agree original GM stuff isnt always perfect, nor are over the counter pieces from GM always identical to factory installed stuff. Just saying its not gonna be hard to ID a repro body from a GM one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Joe,

Will be real easy. Repop bodies will not have the Fisher Body date stampings. Once you know where to look it is easy to spot a repop.

Phil http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

farone

11-10-2005, 03:54 PM

Steve, The salt and snow will probably rot them into the ground, like most of the offshore repops that we deal with here at the shop.

x44d80

11-10-2005, 08:01 PM

Maybe. my case in point is I replaced a door skin with a chinese pos on my 69. stock fenders and rear quarters. The door gap on the top part up past the midpoint crease you could almost stick your little finger in, and all other gaps were good. I had to weld this up with a bead which is not good. I could put a GM door in the hole and it fit perfect. Do you have a vested interest in offshore panels?

68l30

11-10-2005, 08:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Steve, The salt and snow will probably rot them into the ground, like most of the offshore repops that we deal with here at the shop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok,Ok ....no winter beater for me then.........LOL

Steve http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

americanmusclecars

11-11-2005, 04:30 AM

No. I do not have a vested interest in off shore panels. However I do have a interest in this project. Like in any business there are certain companies that are trying to capitalize on the Muscle Car craze and build body parts and throw them in the market at a fast pace without doing much research or with little or no QC. There only goal is financial gain. Those companies are being singled out for there less than perfect part and eventually will be forced to build a better product or quit! Now, I own some original low mileage Camaro's that are fully documented with horrible panel spacing thru out the car. So, specifically on your Camaro maybe the door wasnt install correctly or maybe you purchased a door from a company as previously mentioned. And maybe you got real lucky when you put a GM door on and fit perfect.....but the bottom line Gentleman is that we are talking about a car that was massed produced in 1969 by GM and sorry to say the fit and finish was less than perfect.

americanmusclecars

11-11-2005, 04:37 AM

Most of the steel bought for these body panels are purchased from Japan. Guess what...the same place most US companies purchase their steel. So I am curious, how is it that the reproduction parts made in Taiwan are going to rot faster than than the US parts?

Belair62

11-11-2005, 04:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Like in any business there are certain companies that are trying to capitalize on the Muscle Car craze and build body parts and throw them in the market at a fast pace without doing much research or with little or no QC. There only goal is financial gain

[/ QUOTE ]

So what's the next project on the drawing board for this company ? ?

68l30

11-11-2005, 04:57 AM

I make my living doing Quality Control......Almost all manufacturing I see is done the same way,hurry up and get it done.We(the mfg)don't have time to make it right to begin with.BUT, we sure do have the time to make it again and again and again.What an assbackwards concept.It takes just as much time and money to make it right from the start. You hit the nail on the head talking about QC....There is NONE.The QC is all done outside the plant by you an me struggling to assemble substandard parts and later complaining to the mfg.....I've been fighting the quanity over quality concept for years.It falls on deaf ears....the customer needs it NOW.Same thing with the repop market,they sell it and you need it.....Welcome to todays MFG... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

Steve....QC/INSP. NA MFG http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

68l30

11-11-2005, 05:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Most of the steel bought for these body panels are purchased from Japan. Guess what...the same place most US companies purchase their steel.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of our structural steel is bought from Canada (sad[no offense intended http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif],but it's not Japan)......sheet metal and alloys are always local..... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

Steve http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

americanmusclecars

11-11-2005, 08:18 AM

No offense taken. Its obvious I misread my research and appreciate the correction. I certainly don't want to mis-lead anybody with faulty data. Whether imported from Canada, Mexico, or Japan I simply was trying say that I don't believe that imported metal rots faster than domestic metal....however it is apparent that you may have better knowledge about that also.

68l30

11-11-2005, 06:16 PM

I can only speak for companies in my area.....Cleveland.What is supplied to these stampers(repro body panels) may indeed come from Japan.I don't want to speak for everyone....There are severel different qualities of steel.It stands to reason in todays MFG most would want to stay cost efficiant.Remember, you get what you pay for.

Steve http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Dynacorn

11-23-2005, 05:59 PM

Why don't all of you take a few minutes out of your busy days to do some investigating. The steel used in the replacement body shell is 1006 automotive grade steel. Different from the original yes. But, different bad? No. There are few additives and no sulpher infused into the steel. There is a boon to start with. No excessive sparking and showering when welded. Also tends to make the steel a little more resistant to dents,creases and becoming brittle with age. In addidtion, the thickness of the steel used is now all thicker than the original, so leaning on one or opening a door is not going to pull your door handles out or leave a dent. The bottom line here is that all the purists that want their cars to be left original have that inherant right for sure. Don't buy any reproduction parts for your cars from us or anyone else. But, there are scores of people that can't afford that luxery. They have options as to how much they can spend on their projects. We, at Dynacorn International and Dynacorn Classic Bodies, help them with those options by giving them the very best part available on the market for their cars. If it is a body shell, so be it. There are areas that need to be worked; yes. There are rough spots yes. No one ever said there weren't. Just as the parts that didn't fit on the original assembly lines got boxed up and sold as service parts. NOS is just that. The general market for these cars and our parts is not focused at the Yenko and Supercar snobs at all but to the regular folks that just want a nice car they can drive around. We give them that option. Now, take that for what you all will. I have not tried to upset anyone by this missive but bring a reality here that seems to be missing.

There seems to have been a lot of comments about the quality of our parts compared to an original. Well folks let me say, that we do not ever engineer a part off of an NOS parts because they didn't fit to start with. We use all original parts off of original cars so that they do fit. We find that most of the fitting problems associated with parts sold by us and others is not the part but the person trying to put it on. And remember, these are 30+ year old assembly line cars and nothing fit perfect to start with.

68l30

11-23-2005, 08:29 PM

Sorry,I find the term "snobs" in bad taste.I don't even own a Yenko or Supercar.

Like I said, there is an A$$ for every seat and you get what you pay for.

Sorry if this offends you....

Steve http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

njsteve

11-23-2005, 09:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why don't all of you take a few minutes out of your busy days to do some investigating. The steel used in the replacement body shell is 1006 automotive grade steel. Different from the original yes. But, different bad? No. There are few additives and no sulpher infused into the steel. There is a boon to start with. No excessive sparking and showering when welded. Also tends to make the steel a little more resistant to dents,creases and becoming brittle with age. In addidtion, the thickness of the steel used is now all thicker than the original, so leaning on one or opening a door is not going to pull your door handles out or leave a dent. The bottom line here is that all the purists that want their cars to be left original have that inherant right for sure. Don't buy any reproduction parts for your cars from us or anyone else. But, there are scores of people that can't afford that luxery. They have options as to how much they can spend on their projects. We, at Dynacorn International and Dynacorn Classic Bodies, help them with those options by giving them the very best part available on the market for their cars. If it is a body shell, so be it. There are areas that need to be worked; yes. There are rough spots yes. No one ever said there weren't. Just as the parts that didn't fit on the original assembly lines got boxed up and sold as service parts. NOS is just that. The general market for these cars and our parts is not focused at the Yenko and Supercar snobs at all but to the regular folks that just want a nice car they can drive around. We give them that option. Now, take that for what you all will. I have not tried to upset anyone by this missive but bring a reality here that seems to be missing.

There seems to have been a lot of comments about the quality of our parts compared to an original. Well folks let me say, that we do not ever engineer a part off of an NOS parts because they didn't fit to start with. We use all original parts off of original cars so that they do fit. We find that most of the fitting problems associated with parts sold by us and others is not the part but the person trying to put it on. And remember, these are 30+ year old assembly line cars and nothing fit perfect to start with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that we have you here, can you elaborate on how a person would register one of these cars? Obviously you can't just rivit on an old VIN tag and represent it as a 1969 car. What info/advice do you have? Thanks. (and BTW I am very impressed with your work).

camarojoe

11-23-2005, 09:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry,I find the term "snobs" in bad taste.I don't even own a Yenko or Supercar.

Like I said, there is an A$$ for every seat and you get what you pay for.

Sorry if this offends you....

Steve http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

MikeA

11-23-2005, 09:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The general market for these cars and our parts is not focused at the Yenko and Supercar snobs at all but to the regular folks that just want a nice car they can drive around.

[/ QUOTE ]

What a salesman! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

Xplantdad

11-23-2005, 10:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The general market for these cars and our parts is not focused at the Yenko and Supercar snobs at all but to the regular folks that just want a nice car they can drive around.

[/ QUOTE ]

What a salesman! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

VP/General Manager. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Why would he classify people who own Yenkos and like, as snobs??? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif Everyone that I met at SCR8 were all wonderful nice down to earth people. Seems like there is a bit of frustration or built up hosility towards someone?

Oh well, to each his own. Happy Thaniksgiving all... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

MikeA

11-23-2005, 11:08 PM

Wow http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Dynacorn

11-23-2005, 11:28 PM

Since we are not in the turn-key car business but the parts and shell business, I have no clue as to how you would register one in your state. In California you have several options. We sell body shells. We do not now, or ever ask anyone do anything illegal and we certainly are not asking anyone build a clone of any type.

It isn't hostility. Go back and re-read some of the messages posted on this board bashing our company for parts that constantly are substandard quality and poor fit. As a matter of fact, we test fit every part we make to insure fit and finsih and if it doesn't fit correctly, we pull it and fix it before putting it back on the market. But I stand by my comment and you're right there seems to be an A$$ for EVERY seat. As I stated before, our job is not to provide parts for the people that don't want them, but to the people that do and can't afford $1,500.00 for an original fender. In that vein we do a very credible job. There is absolutely no need to make nasty comments about my company or the parts we provide as if you were or are in the know about us or what we do. I am not trying to be a salesman merely stating the truth for those that wish to hear it. Flaming me isn't going to change a thing in what we do or how we do it.

Dynacorn

11-23-2005, 11:35 PM

As an addendum, I find it interesting that the only thing anyone found fit to comment on was the 'snob' comment.

Dynacorn

11-23-2005, 11:39 PM

I invite any of you to email or call me at your convenience to discuss this further.

CJP_69

11-23-2005, 11:40 PM

I'm glad to see a company undertake such a project. I think it's good for the hobby. Hats off to you Dynacorn!

Dynacorn

11-23-2005, 11:43 PM

And, for those interested, I have, on my desk, the Licensing paperwork for the remainder of the Camaros and 1947-54 Chevy and GMC 5 window pickup shells.

CJP_69

11-23-2005, 11:45 PM

Any new info on when the 69 coupe shells will be available?

Dynacorn

11-23-2005, 11:53 PM

Should be right around the end of January. We have a QC team going to inspect and approve the first part of the year.

CJP_69

11-23-2005, 11:56 PM

Looking forward to it.

Pantera

11-24-2005, 12:37 AM

I am sorry if some coments on here seem snobish to you and I think you totally misunderstood the slant of the topic reguarding your product. I do not feel anyone on here is flameing you or your bodywork.

What we are afraid of is, some of the unscrupious people in the business that are just out to make a buck at the expense of the hobby. From what I have seen in pic, you seem to have a fine product and quite a few of us are just afraid someone (Not anyone assocated with you or your company) will use your body to screw some novice to the hobby out of their hard earned money.

You must admidt that this was not what you got into this business for and we as lovers of all original Muscle cars are just a little worried that it could cast a bad light on the hobby as a whole.

Please accept my appology if you feel that you have been singled out or wronged & deflamed. I would like to say that none of what I have read so far about your bodywork has cast you in a bad way.

Please drop in from time to tome and work with us and I think you will find that this group will support you and your endevors. We only wish to see what you sell not be bastardized and used to defraud anyone as that hurts all of us. NO???

PS: Welcome to the forum. May things get better in time.

Pantera

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

Dynacorn

11-24-2005, 12:52 AM

I appreciate your candor and would welcome the opportunity to assist any group with their needs. Like stated, we are not condoning the missuse of our parts, but nothing will stop uncrupulous people from doing what they do. It's a problem that is rampant in the industry. We do what we can, and hope that all others are honest.

68l30

11-24-2005, 12:55 AM

Mr. Dynacorn,again sorry if I offended you.My comments were made about MFG in general.Sure,some were about repop parts but NOT specificly Dynacorn...My rant on quality control fell into this thread.It should have been a seperate topic....As for the winter beater comment..lighten up.In Cleveland we're doomed to 6 months of snow... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I do understand that your,Dynacorn, parts are the best on the market.Period.You also stated they are not made from NOS parts and this to is quite understood.You should sell all the parts you stamp...Happy Thanksgiving!

Steve http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

Dynacorn

11-24-2005, 01:03 AM

To all of you as well.

camarojoe

11-24-2005, 02:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
As an addendum, I find it interesting that the only thing anyone found fit to comment on was the 'snob' comment.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
...the parts that didn't fit on the original assembly lines got boxed up and sold as service parts. NOS is just that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who told you that all NOS parts started out as production line parts that had defects??? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif Many NOS parts differ in construction from assembly line parts and are made after production of the actual car has ceased. I agree its better to base repro parts off of assembly line pieces than NOS pieces, but to say that NOS stuff is all second rate and reproduction stuff fits better is really a stretch...

Xplantdad

11-24-2005, 03:38 AM

Nice signature line change, Joe...but it doesn't fit you...especially!

The Dynacorn rep could have said what he needed to say without any of the BS thrown in...after all he's representing a company on a public forum.

As an aside, I saw their covertible body displayed at Pavillions a few weekends ago...though I must admit that the representative that was there was infinitely more sociable and friendly...yes SHE was! The reproduction body looked good as well...though it had a custom (Fat Man?) frame underneath it...

americanmusclecars

11-24-2005, 09:29 AM

On each body will be a serial number and will be stamped in several places. We will also stamp that serial number in a place not seen. If anybody suspect someone trying to pass off a Dynacorn body for an original they can contact us and we can tell them where to look. I dont think anyone is trying to take away anything from original Camaro's. Here at American Muscle Cars Inc we have seen many people destroy an original Z/28 or SS by doing the most insane modifications. I hope the Dynacorn Camaro will now take the place of modifying original cars and destroying there value. I beleive you will see Dynacorn Camaro's built as hot rods, G-machines and maybe even race cars. I dont think many people will build them as original Z/28 clones, SS, or even Super Car clones and pass them off as original cars but if they do and you suspect it we will certainly be there to help.

camarojoe

11-24-2005, 10:18 AM

a few weeks ago when asked directly if you had something to gain by promoting these repop bodies and sheetmetal based on your defense of repro Dynacorn stuff, you replied:

[ QUOTE ]
No. I do not have a vested interest in off shore panels. However I do have a interest in this project.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then today you post:

[ QUOTE ]
On each body will be a serial number and will be stamped in several places. We will also stamp that serial number in a place not seen. If anybody suspect someone trying to pass off a Dynacorn body for an original they can contact us...

[/ QUOTE ]

So was that a line of B.S.??? Sounds to me like you DO indeed have a vested interest in offshore panels... and are in fact a part of the Dynacorn repop company. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif How about some honesty here guys. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

Dynacorn

11-24-2005, 02:41 PM

American Muscle Car Coachworks is an assembler of our Camaro bodies. In that vein he has an interest. Is he a member of our company? No. Any reference that our assemblers are a part of Dynacorn Classic Bodies is one fostered not by us. It was a very bad article in Hot Rod magazine last year that started all this hoopla. Had Primedia allowed us to market and announce this project the way we were intending, then this particular string would never have started. At least to this extent. The article written about the 'Crate Camaros' was, to say the least, full of misinformation and downright falsehoods. No one checked with us before printing the article and because of the way it was written, the turn key car business,and the whole car in a crate, GM came down on us like a ton of bricks and forced us into litigation of which we not only did not want, but cost everyone a bundle of cash. That is as honest as it gets.

americanmusclecars

11-24-2005, 03:27 PM

Hey Joe. How is that BS? I have no interest in Dynacorn and have nothing to do with the tooling of body panels. I share in no profit at all from Dynacorn Inc. If I did, why wouldnt I be trying to push all that product on my web site I am a sub-contractor for Dynacorn Classic Bodies to weld Dynacorn Classic Bodies panels together and like I said" I do have interest in the project. Do have any idea how much OE approved spot welders are Yenko Joe? Do you no what it takes to build fixtures to weld these bodies together Yenko Joe?" So when did Yenko.net become the foundation of truth? I have read what some of you self proclaimed experts have wrote for years and have determined you probably never had a Camaro apart!If you trying question my integerty or honesty on some play of words why dont you email me from my web-site and not try to discredit me on this site.

70 copo

11-24-2005, 03:59 PM

Guys this entire thread is getting a case of rot. Come on--anyone "in the know" would be able to pick out a body with significant patching, welding or repair work, before you buy it. With that said there are also some people who will be fooled.

The same with these Dynacorn bodies, Without the key fisher body date stamps in the sheet metal they are what they are.

I really doubt that someone buying a high dollar car that has been recreated back to that of say- a COPO, Z/28, or SS is going to get bit on one of these Dynacorn bodies, and if they do, well they deserve it, along with everything else that is faked and restamped these days....

Lets face it If the cars were not worth as much as they are we would not be having this thread and its discussion.

Frankly the Muscle car values we see today is a "bull market" that we have all collectively created through the sharp price increases in value of these cars over the past few years. This trend is currently nostalgia driven, and will eventually drop off and level out.

There is always an investment that looks great, but you gotta understand what it is that YOU are buying, and what YOU know about it that will make or break the value of the sale. Where there is money to be made there will always be crooks there to "hoodwink" the uninformed.

You can also "hoodwink" a guy by selling him a repaired rust bucket driver quality musclecar - that consists of a significantly repaired original body - much the same way. Lets say that this body that has had inners, outers, floors, quarters, rockers, outer tail, inner tail, entire trunk floor and rear frame replaced and all rewelded up by some one...(Who knows who-or his qualifications) Perhaps the firewall, Driveshaft tunnel and the inner rocker support beams are still original and correct. The concern then shifts to safety of the driver and its occupants being that the overall percentage of the original body that remains after the repair is so low.

Original factory tolerences and measurements Become a real concern in a repair job like this yet there WAS pieces of an original body there to start with. You might be able to use lots of undercoat and filler to cover all of this work up, but if it is a big dollar car and you are "in the know" you are gonna find this work.

You then make the decision to buy or not. Same thing with a Dynacorn body, the execption being that the Dynacorn body will be less likely to have a catastrophic weld failure which could cost you your life- after you decide to launch your rebuilt toy hard some saturday night.

I guess I am having a hard time understanding why this is such a big deal??

Phil http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Dynacorn

11-24-2005, 04:20 PM

Me too Phil. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

CJP_69

11-24-2005, 05:23 PM

Good post Phil. The reality is "buyer beware" and do your homework.

Dynacorn

11-24-2005, 07:23 PM

Have any of you seen the car built by Year One? It isn't perfect, and was never intended to be, however, it is a darn good looking driver using one of our bodies. And, it was built by Year One employees to show that a normal guy with a little knowledge could build a pretty nice car for himself. As for turn key cars selling for $40,000.00 I have no clue. But to be honest, I think that would be way too low of a figure.

rpoz11

11-27-2005, 06:55 AM

-PANTERA-"What we are afraid of is, some of the unscrupious people in the business that are just out to make a buck at the expense of the hobby."

Exactly, and just the same point I was suggesting!

Dynacorn,
I don't think this whole issue is about the ability to manufacture something, or your opportunity to be able to do so.
For me, personally, it has been commonplace in our 69 Camaros for years to 'fake one by' before we all took notice or knew a friend who got jerked just trying to be a Camaro owner; albeit, what was bought was thought to be the original issue.
I considered changing my trim tag info just to satisfy my likings, not to convince with false intenses to the masses but, it was just for me.
Trim tags were swapped often, and that brings me to the direction of the ability to swap a VIN on the shell you represent as that section seems to have been stamped for such an application.

Many of us could simply downplay this forever!
Howabout I SUGGEST to you, Dynacorn, to stop providing the VIN location opening in all further shells that you manufacture?
Since the Law of our land is difficult at times, and none of us desire to really spend what that takes to represent such interests, howabout actually walking the road of acceptance that caters to protecting the originality of the existing cars, by eliminating the opportunity to use the opening for the VIN that was initially intended back in 1969 and keep that portion of your dash/shell/reproduction blank?

Bill Gates is now redefining Microsoft, and so is GM redesigning itsself as well!
Heck, even our own government is rethinking the current Iraq situation....
just my thoughts..... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
------------------------------------------------------------
Last add....
To the Clary's:
You folks started this site I am sure with a certain intention.
What is you opinion on this topic?
Afterall, this is your site!
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

americanmusclecars

11-29-2005, 06:32 PM

As west coast assemblers for Dynacorn Bodies and as previously mentioned we will stamp a serial number three times on every body and one will be stamped in a area that will be less conspicuous. If anyone thinks the car they are buying is less than what the seller is saying it is, than that person can contact us and we will assist them. I do not condone the swapping of VIN tags and trying to pass the car off as something it is not. And I know that was not Dynacorns intent either when this project began. But stamping a new dash blank and excluding the VIN location won't stop anyone trying to deceive a potential buyer by just cutting in there own VIN location hole in the dash. I guess there will always be unscrupulous people out there trying rip someone off whether it be with cars or whatever they are trying to sell. And these people are so smart that whatever prevention we put in place they will always find away around it. One our jobs is to assist people in anyway to prevent that from happening, through this forum or by contacting people/companies like ours to help. For American Muscle Cars Inc. and myself we are passionate about Muscle Cars and the quality of our product and will do what it takes to help stop fraud whether it be with Dynacorn bodies or someone trying to pass off a car as something it is not. What American Muscle Cars Coach Works Inc. is doing is keeping records which will include what Dynacorn dealer has ordered the body, who the end user is and how many cars we assembled and where they are shipped to, to help prevent any fraud. If anyone out there has any suggestion to assist us please contact us.