Rebodied cars and do they get certified [Archive]

RichSchmidt

11-09-2005, 03:45 AM

As far as I know,the majority of scrutiny is aimed at the hidden vin stamped from inside the firewall over the heater box.This is impossible to duplicate,but if the original car had a clean panel in this area,and you did a good job of cutting the panel out of the old car and grafting it into a cleaner original body,you would despell 80 percent of the naysayers.There are also numbers on the subframe,so it would be beter to use the original one.I know 2nd gens had the number at the tail end of the driver's side subframe rail,but I think 1st gens had a number behind the steering box.Of course unless the donor car was chem striped or media blasted by a real expert,you would find old paint that could signal a color mismatch.It is really up to the buyer to check this all out before buying a car.I dont doubt that at least a few rebodies will show up over the years.The sad part is that once it is discovered,you can kind of assume that the original is a toyota by now.

NCGuy68

11-09-2005, 03:59 AM

The new Repop body sticks out like a sore thumb. They're building them not far from me and any knowledgable Camaro person will see the difference. A couple of observations:

1. Three firewall configurations available - none look factory.
2. No VIN visable in the original location. No unmolested VIN means bogus in my book.

Got my flame suit on Gents - fire away........... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

NCGuy68

11-09-2005, 04:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
As far as I know,the majority of scrutiny is aimed at the hidden vin stamped from inside the firewall over the heater box.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pardon the correction. There is no hidden vin stamped anywhere. They have repop serial numbers in various locations, but they in no way relate to original vin numbers.

Belair62

11-09-2005, 04:33 AM

Jeff...there are 2 real black COPO Chevelles...Black with a red side stripe which was restored by Mickey Hale and I think is in Arizona and a Black/white stripe California built car which resides in my garage. I can send you to a website where a lot of the rebodied cars originate and reside if you need info on how to rebody a car. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif It must be pretty easy to do...

NCGuy68

11-09-2005, 04:56 AM

Bob .......How do the so called rebody shops treat the original vin? If its even there?

njsteve

11-09-2005, 04:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The topic refers to a chevelle in this instance, therefore it would be replacing a rusted body with a rust free. I wouldn't worried about the new camaro body, it is my understanding they are easily identified.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no "certifying " them. Replacing a rusted car's body with an entire new body and placing the old car's VIN on the new car is illegal under the Federal as well as state statutes. There is no exception for restoring a car of significant historical value (though I think there ought to be). This falls under the same auto theft/VIN swapping statutes and it is illegal.

Belair62

11-09-2005, 05:02 AM

Don't know Craig...

Rick H

11-09-2005, 05:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The topic refers to a chevelle in this instance, therefore it would be replacing a rusted body with a rust free. I wouldn't worried about the new camaro body, it is my understanding they are easily identified.

[/ QUOTE ]

Steve,
The opening statement was "COPO type car". I would believe that to mean any COPO including the Camaro. The new body's would fall in to the Camaro rebody scenerio. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

We now return to our regularly scheduled debate.

Rick H.

Steve Shauger

11-09-2005, 05:16 AM

(I opened this one up in a different thread since it started to take away from the COPO Chevelle that a member posted for sale.

Rick,
That was what I was refering to...

As far as the new bodies; they can't even reproduce a trim tag correctly. Do you think they could produce a whole new body that is undetectable. Especially with your critical eye?? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

COPO

11-09-2005, 05:33 AM

Jeff, what is your definition of a rebody? The hidden VINs don't match the VIN tag, or replacing so much sheet metal, little remains of the original car, but retaining the original cowl and the VIN's still match? How about a hypothetical former race car that had the firewall cut out including the hidden VINs, but the original trim and VIN tags remain and the rest of the car's sheet metal is original except for some patched 1/4 panels? Not an easy question to answer. I guess that is why survivor's can bring a premium.

Rick H

11-09-2005, 05:45 AM

Steve,
Good point. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

As for the body's, I really don't think that the company that produces the bodies did it to intentionally deceive anyone. It's the individual that buys the body, makes a clone and attempts to pass off the completed car as an original car that is doing the deceiving.
Believe me the differences between the repop bodies and original sheetmetal is such that any competent body shop can improve and make them correct.

OK, now back to our regularly scheduled debate....again. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

Rick H.

WILMASBOYL78

11-09-2005, 06:36 AM

I don't see what all the fuss is about. There are doctors in LA and Palm Beach who re-body people every day. A couple of Camaros shouldn't be such a big deal. Right???

wilma http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

Racefan

11-09-2005, 06:40 AM

It would be a big deal if I could purchase one of those people and found out my brand new Pam Anderson was once Aunt Bea (no offense to Aunt Bea).

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

11-09-2005, 06:43 AM

They get certified, then the certifier gets sued when the new owner buys the car based on the certification. It's happened at least twice in the last 5-6 months, and more will probably be coming out.

Kirk

11-09-2005, 07:01 AM

Please dont tell me that the COPO Connection was part of this farce to ID bad cars esp since I recently looked at a few with Ed's certifications.

Im going to most likely walk the plank on this one (esp since im new here)but what known cars are not the orginal bodys then?

Mr70

11-09-2005, 07:27 AM

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/images/smilies/popcorn.gif http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

11-09-2005, 07:33 AM

Got any of that popcorn left over?

hep1966

11-09-2005, 08:29 AM

This post is not directed to anyone in particular so please don’t think that I’m out to get anyone.

Where is the line drawn in the restoration or repair of a car?

Replace fender or fenders due to rust or crash.
Replace 1/4s due to rust or crash.
Replace trunk floor due to rust or crash.
Replace rear inner wheel wells due to rust or crash.
Replace rockers due to rust or crash.
Replace roof due to rust or crash.
How do any of the above things constitute fraud? They don't.

Weld in a piece of metal to repair hole in firewall.
Weld in a bigger piece of metal to repair firewall.
Any fraud yet? No.

Weld in a huge piece of metal to repair your firewall. In doing so the hidden VIN has been eliminated.
Any fraud yet? No. You simply replaced what needed to be replaced.

Take parts of your firewall and/or dash assembly and weld them onto a pre-assembled replacement body kit. Any fraud here? No. You are simply replacing rusted or crashed body parts with new parts. Many if not all cars built today have VINs on body and frame parts. When newer cars are crashed and have parts replaced, do you think it is fraudulent? Of course not. Frames get replaced every day in body shops all over the country. The cars and trucks keep their original VINs. So why all the fuss? Why should anyone think that a car should be confiscated or destroyed because of replacement body parts with the work being done as outlined above? What difference does it make if you replace parts one at a time or many parts at one time?

What should happen to all of those vintage racecars that crashed earlier this year? From some of the postings in these forums I see that some of you think those cars are now worthless junk. If anyone tries to fix them, they would be committing fraud. Oh wait, those are special cars owned by special people. So it's OK to fix them. The common folk have to resort to kit car classification.

kwhizz

11-09-2005, 08:43 AM

I know of one of "The Rarest of the Rare" factory built race cars that has been rebodied and retagged......the car was found behind the original owners business and after 30 odd years of sitting unprotected in the weather, there wasn't much left of it......but, the original drivetrain and everything else was safely stored inside and were in perfect condition......a rust free donor car was bought out of arizona..........and you know the rest of the story..........

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

Keith Tedford

11-09-2005, 04:12 PM

As long as the buyer is aware of exactly what was done with the car, then no problem. How much restoration that had to be done will probably be reflected in the selling price. The problem is that eventually a money hungry shyster gets hold of the car and then the fun begins. An honest seller will never have a problem. It would even be to his advantage to have the buyer signing that he is aware of exactly what has been done to the car. I know that I will have a ton of pictures of the restoration of our car for any eventual buyer to see. Can't see a sale happening any time soon though. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Jeff H

11-09-2005, 04:50 PM

Like Steve said, transferring the VIN tag and hidden VIN portions of the firewall is illegal so once that has been done, it's definitely a rebody. But if it's done really well, how would someone like Ed really be able to tell without taking apart the car he's inspecting. There will be more attempts at rebodys because the prices on these cars keep going up.

sixtiesmuscle

11-09-2005, 04:53 PM

Just my opinion, but, I think before we start offering up blanket accusations that someone is doing something illegal or unethical, that we all take a breath, count to ten, and, remember that most things posted on the net are taken as fact by many people. Before trashing a person, or, a large group of cars, by insinuation, isn't it better to address individual cars that a prospective buyer may ask about?

SamLBInj

11-09-2005, 05:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see what all the fuss is about. There are doctors in LA and Palm Beach who re-body people every day. A couple of Camaros shouldn't be such a big deal. Right???

wilma http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

They dont always make sense though, I mean, look at this old crusty rebody http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif
http://www.yenko.net/attachments/170468-bobrebody.jpg

PeteLeathersac

11-09-2005, 05:59 PM

- Personal opinion too, but the big thing I see in crossing the line between the work done to repair a car and something illegal, is INTENT! . Is the intent to innocently repair a damaged car and keep the facts of it's repairs available, or to slip as much of other cars under tags and Vin stamped parts and obscure the facts? . Somewhere in here is itself the issue of repop tags, POP's, restampings and other "documentation". . Perhaps some feel it's Ok with "rebodying" a car using only "all original parts" but wouldn't restamp or create bogus tags and documents? . Lots to consider, great stuff and things that need to be discussed, not always left in the darkness in case some need to hide in it someday....or are already there? ~ Pete

Belair62

11-09-2005, 06:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Before trashing a person, or, a large group of cars, by insinuation, isn't it better to address individual cars that a prospective buyer may ask about?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I agree...my comments were about a particular car mentioned. Maybe there needs to be some sort of registry for suspected cars ...and I also agree with Keith...as long as the car is represented honestly it's no big deal. Lots of people probably don't care if a car is a rebody...hell maybe some people prefer one because of the price difference that there should be if presented honestly.

SS427

11-09-2005, 06:52 PM

I don't condone rebodies but I still have never had two questions answered.
1) Someone finds a complete ZL-1 car with a completely destroyed body. Should that car be parted out or rebuilt using a donor body and retain some of American muscles greatest history or should the car be crushed.

2) I recently restored a 1970 SS396 Chevelle convertible. I refused to put a donor body under it and instead restored the car with all new body parts. The only original parts to this car are portions of the firewall and the rear seat divider. This boardered on stupidity and cost the customer almost $20k in parts and labor. However, the car was saved and is now a beautiful car. Had I rebodied it, I do not feel I would have been trying to pass something off as fake as the car was fully documented. I agree that a rebody is not the same car that came off the assembly line but the same can be said about this car today. However, should this complete car have been scrapped instead of saving some history?

Putting myself in the shoes of a buyer, I am more inclined to buy a car with a perfect original body as opposed to one that has had every piece of sheetmetal replaced. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Some of you recall the story of the P-51B that I helped restore several years ago. Virtually every piece of metal was replaced on that airplane save for some hardware and the government ID tag. However, the airplane was once again made airworthy and to the delight of thousands of war veterans and kids alike. Unfortunately due to a mechanical failure, the airplane crashed and killed my friend. It is once again being completely rebuilt from scratch and will be airborne soon as a tribute to the pilot, veterans and enthusiasts. This is twice that this airplane has been reborn instead of scrapped. I don't think the vast majority of people could care less when they see that airplane fly overhead. I don't have nor may any of us ever have an answer to these questions.
Rick

Belair62

11-09-2005, 07:28 PM

I think it's all in the way the piece is presented..Ferraris are rebodied and it seems to be a perfectly accepted deal...people will either buy them or they won't if it's disclosed...its a great discussion since these cars are getting pretty valuable...are there people on this board that would not hesitate owning a rebody ? Lets hear from you. Seems to be a grey area in this hobby and MAYBE it shouldn't be such a nasty subject.

Canucklehead

11-09-2005, 07:44 PM

Reading this i can't help but think of the yellow duece that is sitting in that field rotting. There really is nothing left of that car but the firewall. So does it get left in the feild to be reclaimed by mother earth?. Becouse it is now a known car to the enthusiests here anybody doing anything to it will not be able to pass it off as anything but a rebody. Sure it may not be as sought after as an original body but it will still be a duece and it will be saved. Does that make it a bad plan?. It may cost more to save it than it is worth so does that mean that the guy doing it is going to be chastised as being an idiot and dumped on by endless taunting, then he will think twice along with anybody else associated with the build as ever trying to save another rare car again. I think that reboding a car is fine as long as the car is represented as such and full history as to what happened to the car. I think for the most part the main problem is someone trying to pawn something off as being real when it's not. Well if the owner has the real shell, uses that to build another he has the right to do what he wants with it. Where would the fraud come from, by making copies?. Now that would be the problem. Personally i would like to see it saved and i would praise anybody who does it, unfortunatly seeing some of the taunts on here i know there will be a few naysayers.

Supergas990

11-09-2005, 07:54 PM

Interesting discussion (Again). The L78 Chevelle I'm restoring got full quarters, fenders, passenger door, driver rocker panel and some small patches in the floor.

Everything in the drivetrain is #'s matching. Certainly, disclosure of the work performed is necessary.

Is the car a total rebody? No. It has been repaired/refurbished or in other words restored. In the end this seems like it will be an issue of personal preference, so long as the sellers are honest.

The "what if" scenarios are endless. What if the following:

1. If the car is "Ultra-Super Rare", can be documented and has it's original drivetrain intact. Body is shot, but car is all there.

2. If the car is nothing more than a rotted shell, that doesn't even have rolling gear. Only a VIN tag and Trim Tag, but can be documented

3. Someone happened to have documentation of a car that was destroyed years ago (car is known/confirmed gone) and they recreate the car based on an old title, buildsheet and dealer window sticker. At one time they owned the car, but trashed it years ago.

The possibilities are limitless. Buyers will have to decide what they will accept as the real thing. In the end I believe the market will price these various types of cars accordingly.

Rare cars will always be rare, but rebodies and 95% restorations will drive the prices up on factory original cars.

JMHO...

Blair

Canucklehead

11-09-2005, 07:58 PM

3. Someone happened to have documentation of a car that was destroyed years ago (car is known/confirmed gone) and they recreate the car based on an old title, buildsheet and dealer window sticker. At one time they owned the car, but trashed it years ago.

[/ QUOTE ]

In this case it would be a recreation not an original, if the car is gone it's gone!

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

11-09-2005, 08:04 PM

Field car? As in this one?

http://www.yenko.net/features/2001/field.jpg

If so, I can tell you exactly what was replaced, with pictures to prove it. It was rough, but very original, and is not a rebody or a firewall job. It's a labor of love for many, just a bunch of $ signs for others.

PeteLeathersac

11-09-2005, 08:05 PM

Personal opinion again, but I think Rick and Bob are both right....if it's all in the open, let the individual situation be what it is. . With the values now, the time has come to let the "true" pedigree be part of what the car really is....or not! . Somewhere along the line the words "as original" became "original" where original doesn't mean "the original". . "Matching numbers" when a restamp and "restoration motor" terms cloud the facts too also it's a lot to ask that buyer beware is the order of the day when federal offences are being committed. .
On another note, Rick.....sorry to hear you were part of the P51B project and condolences friends and family of the pilot. . Love those warbirds too and have a Spitfire IV on my Christmas wish list! . Love to be able to go for a spin in one of the recently restored ME-262's too! . They just unvieled the Landcaster Bomber up here in Canada this week....not a flying example but still I think 10M. spent on the resto. . The example was pulled out of a lake in Europe, part of the fuselage replaced with one being used as a chicken coop somewhere....all above the board though and no restamping I know of? ~ Pete

11-09-2005, 08:07 PM

Very good point Rick

Many of you might remember a few years ago when a posted about a certain Daytona Yellow Yenko Camaro and its' history. The car was a local car, that I both raced against and rode in. It was a legit VIN and like a lot of hi-performace cars was cut up for racing. The car was back halved, the floors cut out, full tubs installed, the trans tunnel removed, etc. I thought it would be neat to post the cars history as it was associated with quite a few local racers, including the original owner of the yellow ZL1 Corvette. I researced the car and its' current condition (which is a stock restoration) and found out the car the original body had been cut off and a donor shell welded onto the original dash and firewall. The cowl tags and VIN tag, along with the "hidden" VIn were not removed, but literally 95-98% of the car wasn't the same car that left Norwood..I mean body shell, complete drivetrain, interior, moldings, subframe, etc. had all been replaced with parts from donor cars or NOS. Now to me..that is a "rebody"..and I even used the term in a post...My God, you would have thought I called the Pope a dirty name..lol

In my mind someone saved a neat car, and while I didn't agree with what was done...I would have researched the car and left it alone as a race car when I found out from day 1 that is what it was..I didn't find it to be "morally" worng. After all it is a piece of automoticve history. However quite a few people on here chastised me for "outing" the car and accused me of being malicious. These same people and quite a few others privatley sent me emails saying "thanks for the info" or "neat car and story." I guess when the term "rebody" is used people start getting up in arms, as instead of looking at a positive (the saving of a musclecar) they look at the negative. If you aren't hiding something or aren't going to hide soemthing, should it really matter?? Why should people knowing what was done make a big difference?

The bottom line to me is there isn't a lot of difference between cars with every piece of sheetmetal replaced and a rebody. The shouldn't command top dollar and people shouldn't be worried about others knowing what was done. There shouldn't be a stigma attached to them..they are after all still driveable, fast, fun cars...Just my thoughts..

GSC

Canucklehead

11-09-2005, 08:08 PM

No it wasent that one is was the sunflower yellow (is that the right color name?) that was on e-bay, it has been discussed here before.

Supergas990

11-09-2005, 08:18 PM

The Yellow Duece that has appeared on E-Bay on several occassions is the one I think you mean. It is in very rough shape, and has never sold through E-Bay or after the ad was finished - Owner wanted to much.

Blair

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

11-09-2005, 08:26 PM

Gotcha!

The Sun Yellow car is almost unrestorable in my book, but another guy has a legitimate idea on how to do it without having it collapse. So, no assumptions on it's possibilities http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

Canucklehead

11-09-2005, 09:10 PM

Do you have any pictures of that car you can post?, if the owner was more resonable with his price even i would be interested. (yellow is my fovorite color to).

CamarosRus

11-09-2005, 09:38 PM

As someone who PARTED OUT an Original 69 ZL-1 Camaro, I'm following this thread.........and yes today, THAT same ZL-1 with the ONLY Original born with piece being the VIN tag and otherwise TOTALLY fabricated from other 69 Camaro parts lives on, WITH certification.

Chuck

JChlupsa

11-09-2005, 10:03 PM

Chuck, The question on that car would be was certification done knowing the car was a rebody? If so did the Certification indicate so? Where it gets messy is when you take a $20K car and put a $200K VIN plate on the car and sell it for $250K+ and try to pass it off as one.

hep1966

11-09-2005, 10:11 PM

Not a direct followup to the previous post but why do people think that removal of the hidden VIN while making repairs is fraudulent or illegal? There are hidden VINs on many car parts. You are allowed to replace these areas of the car while making repairs.

JChlupsa

11-09-2005, 10:19 PM

Removal of the Hidden/Partial VINs is not illegal, Removing the VIN Plate itself and re-installing it on another car is.

sYc

11-09-2005, 10:21 PM

Lets take this one step forward. What if someone simply buys the trim and VIN tags only through the mail, no sheetmetal, nothing, attaches these tags to another car, the car gets a certificate, and it sells for big bucks?

Who is at fault? If anyone? Is it buyer beware? IMO, <font color="red"> no </font> but??? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

737Driver

11-09-2005, 10:39 PM

It all seems so simple and straight forward.

You find a super valuable piece (exa. COPO, L88, etc.), but, it needs some or most of its original body replaced. It is documented, has the original drivetrain and a known history. If you considered parting it out because it would need a re-body, you should seriously consider having your head examined. Thing is, you wouldn't want to use some aftermarket panels, you would scour the planet for either NOS or excellent used original pieces. If you had to cut out some super secret # and weld it in, sure, do it. Make it indistinguishable from original. During your ownership, it would be at your discretion to let anybody know (or not). But when it comes time to sell, there is only ONE correct thing to do, disclose it.

As for buying just a trim tag and documentation, well, go for it. Do it right, but, when it comes time to sell, same rule applies, you gotta be honest.

That's the way I see it. My L88 had (has) a hit motor in it. So what, the original only lasted a short time. The buyer was told, in no uncertain terms, it is a re-stamp. I still got a boatload of big green daddyoes for it. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,

Mark Donnally

njsteve

11-09-2005, 10:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Removal of the Hidden/Partial VINs is not illegal, Removing the VIN Plate itself and re-installing it on another car is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for restating current state of the law to the above people. I can't stress this enough: There is NO recognozed exception to the illegality of removing a VIN tag from one car and attaching it to another. Period!

If you remove the VIN tag from a car during its restoration and then reattach that same tag to the same car it came off of, that is not a crime; that is a repair.

The issue of certification as an original COPO or any other vehicle is irrelevent to the fact that the car is now illegal in the eyes of the law.

Stuart Adams

11-09-2005, 11:08 PM

That being the law, illegal cars are out there. I guess if found out the car would be impounded, correct Steve?

PeteLeathersac

11-09-2005, 11:34 PM

Great thread going here! . So when is replacing enough metal that includes the Vin tag itself enough to "blur" the line of tag re & re....a whole cowl maybe or just enough to not disturb the rivets? . And is removal and replacement of metal like a hidden Vin and surrounding metal considered illegal? . Like a few guys have noted, whatever is considered legal or not is a different situation than Copo certification or values. . Again if the whole history of what's been done is open knowledge and or part of a sales contract, at least there's not intent to defraud. ~ Pete

Belair62

11-10-2005, 12:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Do it right, but, when it comes time to sell, same rule applies, you gotta be honest.

[/ QUOTE ]
That means someone having something rebodied would disclose it and take a ton less money for the car...in muscle cars I don't think we are seeing the honesty factor kicking in....should we somehow miraculously get all people to disclose this stuff what would the difference in value be ? Should there be a difference in value ? When a car gets the rebody name associated with it people seem to stay away from them...if the same car was disclosed will it be easier to sell ? Obviously people in the musclecar world would prefer NOT to buy a rebodied car and thats why these things stay "secret". For the most part you only "heard" that this car or that car was rebodied or firewalled or whatever...people aren't slapping signs on them proudly proclaiming that heritage yet.

737Driver

11-10-2005, 12:36 AM

If all people were honest it would, in fact, be a miracle. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

So, if an original ZL1 Camaro is discovered and it needs extensive sheet metal, people will 'stay away from it' or 'it will be worth a ton less money'? That doesn't seem reasonable to me, but, I am not as tuned in to these cars as well as most here. Is it really documented that rare cars (i. e. COPO Camaro's) that are the 'Real Deal' that need sheet metal are not desireable? If a COPO that is all original brings 200G's, one that has a beautiful resto using some donor sheet metal is worth what? Both have the original drive train and are documented.

Over on the dark side (Corvettes) the difference would not be nearly so great.

Regards,

Mark

737Driver

11-10-2005, 12:39 AM

I am a buyer for any cheap, documented, original drive train, known history COPO and rare cars needing sheet metal. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,

Mark

camarojoe

11-10-2005, 01:46 AM

I don't think belair is talking about cars that "need alot of sheetmetal" , he's talking about cars that NEEDED alot of sheetmetal, but instead got the tags and specific items transfered to a non-supercar body. THOSE are the cars people tend to shy away from.

737Driver

11-10-2005, 03:02 AM

Joe,

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I didn't quite get that the way it was intended.

With that being said, you get a ZL1 that is documented with original drivetrain and known history. It is, unquestionably, the real deal. The body is history. Everything is rusted out and beat to dickens and there is nothing much useful remaining, You now find a beautiful donor car and transfer the drivetrain and sub frame over to the donor. The trim tags are attached properly and a world class resto is performed. Are people really going to shy away or are they really only going to pay a fraction for a car like this? It doesn't make common sense to me. I would be a buyer on a car like that with no hesitation.

Listen, I would prefer an all original car, just like anyone else, but, I would not hesitate to pay strong money for the re-bodied car. It would not be a big money road block.

I believe super rare pieces, such as COPO, L88, Boss 429, etc, are not that greatly affected by such things.

Regards,

Mark

11-10-2005, 03:10 AM

The problem lies in the fact that musclecars or really any car that has had a new or different body shell installed always was and always will be worth much less to a "collector." The enthusiast might not care as much, but the collector does. Since the vast majority here and on other musclecar websites will say they are "collectors" even if only owning a single car, the stigma stays.

Since we are talking persumably about GM "supercars" I find it somewhat humorous and naive when people on this website slam rebodies, as to a large degree you guys are the reason people are doing it in the first place. How many Yenko Camaros, Chevelles, Novas, and other supercars have been sold and flipped multiple times here for mega profit. The post and classifieds here are filled with cars that were bought on Sunday and sold the following Monday..lol I guarantee if people who primarily make up this website sat and thought about it they could name 2-3 dozen cars sold more than twice in a 6-9 month period and at least a dozen people here assoicated as "flippers." It stands to reason that enterprising people recognize the profit to be made and will go to great lengths to "rebuild" what in a normal market might be left alone.

I am not a collector, but an enthuiast. So for me as long as the car in question has the proper docs, numbers, and there isn't evidence of a rebody then it is good enough. Notice I didn't say I WANTED a rebody or that I would knowingly buy a rebody. However since any car I buy, I can't lay claim to having been there from its' inception to today (only a handful of original owners can do that) then I have to assume a car has had some type of work. If I'm coughing up the coinage for a "supercar" or some other rare car then I'm researching the docs and the cars' history BEFORE buying..not after. If I find the car was a race car and cut up and today it isn't..then I'm an idiot if I don't ASSUME extensive repair or a rebody, unless evidence to the contrary. I should then pay as such.

It is also funny to me when folks here talk about self policing the hobby and ensuring that "rebodies" are somehow catagorized. My opinion on the times I've seen susupected cars brought to light, it largely depends on 2 things..a) who is notifing the group and B) who owns the suspected car now. If it is someone out of the "loop" or group on either occasion the person and car are picked apart. If it is someone that everyone knows here and has coffee with at the car shows then it is kept pretty quiet and everyone hopes the discussion goes away. I would imagine largely because the whole "rebody" issue is a large negative in our hobby, and if "so and so" can be scrutinized then so can I mentality..

The bottom line is if an expert restoration is done on any given car..a "rebody" or installing a different body shell will not be detectable, It is only through thourgh research of a particular VIN that the truth might POSSIBILY be known. Sorry for being long winded..

camarojoe

11-10-2005, 03:36 AM

a supercar with extensive sheetmetal repair is alot different than a supercar firewall welded to a plain-jane body, and other assorted stuff transferred to the plain jane body to make it appear like the original supercar once did. They are not the same thing, and shouldn't be considered the same, and I don't care who owns it. I've seen some REALLY bad cars brought back to life without a rebody, so just because a car needs alot of work doesn't mean taking the easy way out and firewalling a car is "ok" because thats quick and easy, and fixing the existing car is alot of work.

Belair62

11-10-2005, 04:09 AM

As an "enthusist" would you be pissed if you bought a car that didn't turn out to be what your homework told you it was ?

Rick H

11-10-2005, 04:11 AM

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/images/smilies/popcorn.gif http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

Got to go get another cold one. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Rick H.

JIM

11-10-2005, 04:17 AM

Let me share this, several years ago I was asked to do the undercarriage of a 1970 LS-6 Chevelle for a customer. We were to remove the drivetrain, and interior and bring the car to concours standards. This was a Numbers matching car complete with history and Buildsheet. The car was never modified and appeared a Super nice original low mile car. Upon removal of the inner fenders and onto the heater box all hell broke lose. This car had been creamed on the right side and had the right cowl off a 1972 chevelle with vin# under the blower motor opening. This was a very nice fix and done back in the day, No one knew. It was only visable from inside the car and had a winshield post and all installed. Does it hurt that car?
Number 2
I had a 1970 L-78 that some idiot started to graft Air Conditioning into and cut away part of the vin # under the heater opening. It had complete buildsheet and most of drive train. The new owner had to graft a firewall section and bitched about it. Does it hurt that car?
Number 3
I work on these cars daily and just finished a 1970 LS-6 for another customer. It had been Hit hard in the front and had also had a frame put under it. We figure this car was hit almost New as the frame was 40 days after the car, the sheetmetal on the front looked original paint and so on. Once apart again the right side had been crushed and the cowl and firewall panels on the blower motor had been poorly brazed in. and even the lower inner fender attachment was screwed in place all had GM part#s, hense no vin at all . does it hurt that car ?

3 Senerio's of real live accident or Idiot owner damage in life. Whats Your take
all real documented cars with firewall issuses
Jim http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

camarojoe

11-10-2005, 04:31 AM

In all 3 cases mentioned, the original car was there... yes there were some repairs, and some numbers missing that were originally there, but the real car was still what you were looking at. Now if you would have told me you started taking a car apart, and found that it was actually a complete 72 chevelle with the 70 LS6 vin numbers and panels welded into it, that would be a different story... once again, theres a big difference between repairing and rebodying.

COPO

11-10-2005, 04:43 AM

Joe, I don't quite understand what you do or do not consider a rebody. You seem to be saying if someone replaces every body panel one at a time, then it is OK because it was a lot of work and was harder than a tag swap? While this is the extreme case, where does one cross the line? No one has yet defined a rebody. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

camarojoe

11-10-2005, 04:46 AM

In contrast, I don't see why its so hard to determine what is a rebody and what isn't. Yes, if you FIX the car you have, its not a rebody... if you turn a totally different car into one you have tags or documentation for, its a rebody... all the NOS sheetmetal in the world can't turn a car into a rebody...but taking one car and turning it into something else can. Some of you seem to be trying to say that replacing various sheetmetal pieces with new ones can eventually turn the car into a rebody... no way. I dont care if you piece by piece fix or replace every panel on your car, as long as you never bring in a different car and start taking smaller pieces (IE: the tags and firewall) of the original car and attaching them to the other one...bottom line is you gotta FIX the real car...not simply wheel in a different car and weld the real firewall to it. Seems like a simple enough explanation to me.

COPO

11-10-2005, 04:59 AM

So getting a donor body or two, cutting it up and then rewelding it piece by piece to the few bits salvageable from the "real car" is OK because it is more work and the real car is "fixed", than say back halving a clean intact donor onto the front of the "real car" ? I'm not picking on you, I just don't think this question is quite so black and white. There have been some good thoughts on both sides. Personally, I wouldn't want a car that has had extreme surgery like that and recently passed on a Supercar even though it was a good financial deal and a neat car.

camarojoe

11-10-2005, 05:03 AM

You need to use the structure of the real car...that doesn't mean you can't do some major sheetmetal replacing, but i dont care how "bad" the car is, it can be fixed without replacing every square inch of car from the firewall back... If you don't have anything else but the firewall and tags of a real car, its a rebody.

As a side note to this... if you think its OK to replace the entire car with another car, leaving only the firewall and tags of the real one, then that would mean any clone yenko could become a real car if you found a rusty real yenko and welded the firewall to your clone... I don't think anyone anywhere would consider this clone to all the sudden become "real".... but yet thats essentially what you're saying is OK to do if youre starting with the rusty/damaged real car instead of the other way around.

Belair62

11-10-2005, 05:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I guarantee if people who primarily make up this website sat and thought about it they could name 2-3 dozen cars sold more than twice in a 6-9 month period and at least a dozen people here assoicated as "flippers."

[/ QUOTE ]

Greg...I challenge you to find these dozens of cars sold multiple times within 6 -9 months here by flippers here in the past 2 years...

Stuart Adams

11-10-2005, 05:25 AM

If they are being flipped that often I want a chance to buy, I feel like a poor stepchild now....

Racefan

11-10-2005, 05:37 AM

I have brought this up elsewhere, but I'll give this example again. This is NOT made up, it is an actual situation in the world today.

Car A (a Yenko Camaro) was found by Collector 1 who determined that it was too far gone to restore. Collector 1 proceeded to purchase the VIN and trim tags off the car and swap them to Car B (plain jane 69 coupe). Collector 1 decided he didn't want anything else off the car and expcted Owner 2 to dispose of what was left. Fast forward to 2005, Car A (real Yenko)is still around and resides with Owner 2 since he never disposed of it. Remember, Car B (plain jane) now has the VIN and trim tags of Car A (real Yenko). Car A (real Yenko) has no tags, BUT does have the hidden VINs which, in a court of law, would make it the official owner of the tags now in Car B (plain jane).

You purchase Car A (real Yenko), restore it and try to title it. Low and behold.....the VIN of your car is assigned now to Car B(plain jane). Legal problems out the wazoo. Why? BECAUSE IT IS WRONG TO SWAP TAGS-- MORALLY, ETHICALLY, AND LEGALLY.

Forget about the rebody issues and all the ancillary crap that is confusing the issue here. If you decide on your own that you want to assign Car B the VIN off of Car A-- you are breaking the law. If you cut every piece of metal out of Car A and replace it but it retains its VIN, you have not broken the law.

What is so hard about this? I am building a 68 Yenko clone. But, I will NOT search out the Magic Mirror trim tag and have a VIN plate made up of some 68 Yenko which has not been found yet. I am not trying to fool anyone. I want the feel and look of a 68 Yenko. When the car is sold in the future, there will be no question if it is real or not. The only thing that I am going to change that may make it misleading to people in the future is to add a BB heater box. That addition is not to mislead, it is for functionality.

For those who don't think swapping tags is wrong. How about if I go ahead and rebuild my 68 using bogus tags and YS# off of one of the KNOWN to be destroyed 68 Yenkos. Would that be fraud? Would you pay BIG$$$$ for that car? Nope, because it isn't real.

amuseme

11-10-2005, 05:44 AM

Boy, I'm really enjoying this! Apparently there is no legal description of just what portion of a car makes it "a car". I posted this point before on another site, think it's worth a re-hash.....you can pay a resto. shop to replace each and every panel and it's a "restoration, new or n.o.s. stuff, new work, and new money. Or you take the numbered parts and cut the rest of the "car" away from them (catch that?), and slide in a "body", sorry, " collection of panels" that some uaw workers put together 30-35 yrs ago, new parts,new work, and new money. You simply paid a larger shop after the fact.Please tell me you get it that you can remove the rest of the body from the "juicy parts" instead of removing them from the body!

sYc

11-10-2005, 05:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If they are being flipped that often I want a chance to buy, I feel like a poor stepchild now....

[/ QUOTE ]

Stuart, they are being flipped like that, but not by members of this site.

Racefan

11-10-2005, 05:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Please tell me you get it that you can remove the rest of the body from the "juicy parts" instead of removing them from the body!

[/ QUOTE ]

Walking a fine line there.

Can you take your license plate off your LeMans blue 69 Camaro and put them on your Garnet 69 Camaro and drive it? Nope, that would be illegal. Will it work? Yep, until you get caught. Same prinicple applies.

Charley Lillard

11-10-2005, 05:52 AM

This will be the 1000 year debate...

amuseme

11-10-2005, 05:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I have brought this up elsewhere, but I'll give this example again. This is NOT made up, it is an actual situation in the world today.

Car A (a Yenko Camaro) was found by Collector 1 who determined that it was too far gone to restore. Collector 1 proceeded to purchase the VIN and trim tags off the car and swap them to Car B (plain jane 69 coupe). Collector 1 decided he didn't want anything else off the car and expcted Owner 2 to dispose of what was left. Fast forward to 2005, Car A (real Yenko)is still around and resides with Owner 2 since he never disposed of it. Remember, Car B (plain jane) now has the VIN and trim tags of Car A (real Yenko). Car A (real Yenko) has no tags, BUT does have the hidden VINs which, in a court of law, would make it the official owner of the tags now in Car B (plain jane).

You purchase Car A (real Yenko), restore it and try to title it. Low and behold.....the VIN of your car is assigned now to Car B(plain jane). Legal problems out the wazoo. Why? BECAUSE IT IS WRONG TO SWAP TAGS-- MORALLY, ETHICALLY, AND LEGALLY.

Forget about the rebody issues and all the ancillary crap that is confusing the issue here. If you decide on your own that you want to assign Car B the VIN off of Car A-- you are breaking the law. If you cut every piece of metal out of Car A and replace it but it retains its VIN, you have not broken the law.

What is so hard about this? I am building a 68 Yenko clone. But, I will NOT search out the Magic Mirror trim tag and have a VIN plate made up of some 68 Yenko which has not been found yet. I am not trying to fool anyone. I want the feel and look of a 68 Yenko. When the car is sold in the future, there will be no question if it is real or not. The only thing that I am going to change that may make it misleading to people in the future is to add a BB heater box. That addition is not to mislead, it is for functionality.

For those who don't think swapping tags is wrong. How about if I go ahead and rebuild my 68 using bogus tags and YS# off of one of the KNOWN to be destroyed 68 Yenkos. Would that be fraud? Would you pay BIG$$$$ for that car? Nope, because it isn't real.

[/ QUOTE ] The use of the word bogus killed that point. What's so hard is shown in your post, you say cut all the metal away and the vin is still there so it's real. So the vins are what make it real,yes? So you just replace every thing else and it's still real? It's very hard and not likely to be solved 'tll there is a legal disc. of what exactly makes a car a car....jmho.

Racefan

11-10-2005, 05:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This will be the 1000 year debate...

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree totally Charlie. However, it is my hope that the beauty in a group like ours is that if I were looking to buy a car that had a "questionable" past....someone would PM me, call me, stop by, or whatever. But they would let me know. We can't police the world, nor should we try. But, we can help those out who are looking for answers and doing thier due diligence on a potential purchase. Right? That is all we can do.

amuseme

11-10-2005, 06:03 AM

Can you take your license plate off your LeMans blue 69 Camaro and put them on your Garnet 69 Camaro and drive it? Nope, that would be illegal. Will it work? Yep, until you get caught. Same prinicple applies.

[/ QUOTE ] http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Now, if you take the plates AND the vins.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Belair62

11-10-2005, 06:03 AM

Exactly the type of scenario most people have a funny feeling about......and that is why this is such an interesting subject...and now you look at a car like this and it has COPO Connection certification or even the original paperwork,POP etc....the VIN is correct...and trim is correct and checked back to a Yenko Inventory sheet so it must be real right ? Wrong...so now you buy this car...the old car rears it's ugly head and you are all screwed in one way or another because instead of going thru the ridiculously expensive restoration of a hulk someone chose to go the lazy (or smart) way of throwing the tags on a clean body...how is the guy looking at the car or verifying the car supposed to see this ? I would guess that most people would prefer NOT to own a car like this and thats why it becomes a "secret"...until someone finds the real car hulk that was left behind...if you look at it from a money standpoint...it has to be much cheaper to rebody a car....any restoration guys want to guess at the cost difference between restoring a nasty car with NOS sheetmetal and simply restoring a clean body shell and dropping it on ???

budnate

11-10-2005, 06:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I guarantee if people who primarily make up this website sat and thought about it they could name 2-3 dozen cars sold more than twice in a 6-9 month period and at least a dozen people here assoicated as "flippers."

[/ QUOTE ]

Greg...I challenge you to find these dozens of cars sold multiple times within 6 -9 months here by flippers here in the past 2 years...

[/ QUOTE ]

it may appear that way...we all have our core car/cars that will never be for sale short of a family emergency...the other cars are fun to chase play with and trade or sell and get something else that floats your boat that week..nothing wrong with that..heck it keeps them in circulation that way. anyone have a 86/88 Blue / white top shifter roadster Vette around..got a itch for one this week.. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif

sYc

11-10-2005, 06:12 AM

Really hammers home the point that a certificate is just that, a piece of paper, unless backed up by a bonafide inspection of the car in question. IMO, the only way to avoid making a costly mistake is to hire someone you trust, and knows what to look for.

And yes, would be neat if folks who had information about a possible bogus car would pass it along, but trust me, that is a very slippery slope. Been there, done that. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

Racefan

11-10-2005, 06:21 AM

Try checking the "Defnitions" section of this one. I think the answers to the "hard questions" we are faced with are really pretty cut and dried in the eyes of the law. Seems as though there would be times when the title should reflect large amounts of restoration?
http://www.odot.state.or.us/forms/dmv/6511.pdf

Stuart Adams

11-10-2005, 06:25 AM

Ahh....

Racefan

11-10-2005, 06:31 AM

It also appears that the new body shells would be somewhat questionable by the Oregon definitions because of the uni-body portion of the definitions? Am I reading that correctly?

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

11-10-2005, 05:51 PM

I think that CamaroJoe absolutely nailed this one. We have been down this road on Steve's Nova site when that sun yellow deuce was on EBaY, and pretty much reached the same conclusion. We used Schoneye's original 'owner' face on Pam Anderson's body as an eg - it was more interesting than car 1 vs. car 2, or yenko A vs. yenko B http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I'm working on a feature car story that will explain this topic in real world terms http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

resto4u

11-10-2005, 06:44 PM

Remember ZL-1 #23 or #18? Do not recall which one, That was clipped from the toeboards back. The car was a tubbed race car. Did that car get certified? It was a real car. Was it certified before or after the rear clip? My point is, do tubbed racecars get certified? Or just factory stock bodied cars? Copo connection should not be held liable for what happens to a cars body after it is certified. And i beleive there is a discloser already to protect him from suits. Roger

Belair62

11-10-2005, 07:43 PM

So at the end of the day...all we can ever really know is the VIN is a true Supercar...probably no way to discover a well done rebody without sandblasting the whole damn car. There are folks who would never buy a rebody and there are those who could care less and at least a remnant of a true Supercar still exists instead of going to it's grave. If you are looking for a car and do not want to buy a rebody there ought to be a way to know the history of a car...maybe it's time for Ed or whoever to list the associated known history of a given car like the Shelby Registry does.Shelby even lists when a rebody was done if known..if it is not known it is listed as such...may be a lot of work but it seems like a good idea and people would be willing to pay a lot more for that document.Then maybe finally there won't be such a distaste for a rebody. They could be accepted just like Shelby's are. They may not be as valuable as a non-rebody but the folks looking can make that choice and not worry. Better to have the info and decide than to get something you don't want.

Canucklehead

11-10-2005, 07:50 PM

Lets not forget that there are more buyers than there are cars, and if a fellow want's one of these cars and there are none for sale he would have to settle for a rebody or nothing, maybe a clone???. I still think that even though it's a rebody it's still worth alot of money, maybe not as much as an original but still up there. Really out of the known exsisting ZL1 left how many demand top dollar, and how many are at the bottm of the scale??. Whats the range $500 - 1 mill????

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

11-10-2005, 07:59 PM

What would you do with this one?

Stuart Adams

11-10-2005, 08:00 PM

Love the Shelby Registry. Only wish Gm had such.

68l30

11-10-2005, 08:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What would you do with this one?

[/ QUOTE ]

Get the trailer......and buckle down for a loooong time!

Steve http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

camarojoe

11-10-2005, 08:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What would you do with this one?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can tell you what i definitely wouldn't do with it, and thats cut the firewall off and weld it to a different body. While it definitely needs alot of work, there is plenty to start with. In fact, I've seen guys restore NON supercars that were as bad or worse than that...all it takes is time, money, and patience... a pro bodyman wouldn't hurt either! Very cool pic btw...

SS427

11-10-2005, 08:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Love the Shelby Registry. Only wish Gm had such.

[/ QUOTE ]

GM doesn't but there are plenty of Registries geared towards the Chevrolets. Unfortunately, the LS-6 Chevelle people seem to have a lot to hide as they don't want much to do with one. However, the purpose of the registry is NOT to disclose issues with one's car but rather list legit ones.
Rick

Racefan

11-10-2005, 09:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What would you do with this one?

[/ QUOTE ]

Can I have it?

69SSRSL89

11-10-2005, 09:45 PM

Marlin, what has happened with this Yenko hulk? Has anyone taken on the challenge to restore it, or is it one of those that are still sitting in the same place as when this photo was taken and not for sale? I'm hopefing that it's the first option.
Jesse

Supergas990

11-10-2005, 09:49 PM

Where do I sign up to revive that Yenko shell. I promise no rebodies from my shop!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Blair

amuseme

11-10-2005, 09:58 PM

How's this for how hard it is; let's say you can legally cut the body away from the vins, you then slide a Nova,Mustang, 'Cuda, Studebaker or whatever instead of a camaro and by law you've got a real ZL-1!!! Murky, murky waters.

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

11-10-2005, 10:18 PM

CamaroJoe nailed it again http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

A car like the FG one is not for everyone, but money, time, advice and a learning curve is the answer - not another body for a f/wall swap or tag switch.

As far as I know, the car remains as shown but is no longer stuck in that field. I think it's in litigation, but not due to a certification argument.

SamLBInj

11-10-2005, 10:33 PM

If this car could talk and tell all the cool racing stories what would it say?
You know, if you think about it, the best way to look at this whole scenerio is like this. You lay out $100,000 grand for a rebodied Yenko camaro with only the vin and tag the original parts, the actual car your driving around in now has all new drive train and a really nice donor body from a super clean original 307 camaro. You step on the gas and smoke the tires and you say to yourself man it sure is nice to cruise in the actual car that was special ordered from the factory and got tuned up by Yenko. Would you feel like you got your money's worth or do you feel like something just isnt right http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Belair62

11-10-2005, 10:45 PM

If it's good for a Shelby I wonder why the Chevrolet people are so offended by it ? I always liked stock stuff so I guess that would make me a purist (I've been called worse)but most people in this hobby probably aren't purists... these cars are here to stay now so a it could only be a good thing if every Supercar was accounted for...rebody or not...problem is most of them that will be found already have been found so working backwards is probably impossible.....what started as a more or less informal need for documentation and registry has taken on a more critical role....... it's probably too late now to get more in depth. At least we have most of the Yenko and some other VINS. If an LS 6 Registry ever gets born it would be gut wrenching....I would rather have a rebodied car than an all out made up fake car with fake POP,trim and Buildsheet any day...whether it's an LS6 L78 or anything else for that matter.

sYc

11-10-2005, 10:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Love the Shelby Registry. Only wish Gm had such.

[/ QUOTE ]

Having owned a Shelby in the past, I am very familiar with how they do things. And, the sYc has considered doing something along the same lines. But, here is the problem.

Right now a COPO/Yenko certificate only addresses the area of does the VIN plate on the car match a known Yenko/COPO VIN number. In many cases, Ed nor Vince have personally examined cars they issued certificates to. If the certificate stated this, maybe as a disclaimer, it would alleviate some of the problems we are facing today. No more could such as certificate be used as a means to verify the whole car.

To do a registry, such as the SAAC, would require a lot of leg work, $$$, and most importantly, would stir up a lot of ill feelings in the hobby. A lot of the cars in our hobby today were restored years ago, when they were worth a lot less money, and the rebody issue was not such touchy issue. I know of several very suspect cars right now, if exposed, would cause all h-ll to break loose. And who could blame someone for being upset, who had paid big $$ for a car, only to hear that it was bogus. And then, what about the seller, who suddenly was under attack, maybe even in court. A sticky wicket to say the least.

I for one would love to see a true SAAC type registry, but not for sure how to go about implementing such an endeavor with out adding fuel to an already somewhat volatile hobby. I will be the first to admit I do not have the answer and am open to any and all suggestions in how we can go about finding a better way to police our hobby. Lets hear it.

Stuart Adams

11-10-2005, 11:05 PM

I agree 100%, very difficult and unrealistic. Just wishing. Having purchased a Shelby recently and getting a copy of the Registry is wonderful. Actually very appealing selling feature of Shelby's because of that. Not perfect, but close.

It's just hard when the very strong passion we all have for the hobby can't be even more enjoyable becasue of all these stressful #rs, Vins, Etc, etc.

If it was done many years ago when $ didn't matter as much, then it would be awesome now, bummer.

Allen

11-10-2005, 11:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]

A lot of the cars in our hobby today were restored years ago, when they were worth a lot less money, and the rebody issue was not such touchy issue. I know of several very suspect cars right now, if exposed, would cause all h-ll to break loose. And who could blame someone for being upset, who had paid big $$ for a car, only to hear that it was bogus. And then, what about the seller, who suddenly was under attack, maybe even in court. A sticky wicket to say the least.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bogus? I'm starting to get confused.... (doesn't take much at times!)

There seems to be a need for certain lines drawn or definitions on the discussion - Bogus, rebody, fake, restamp, recreation, clone, etc.

To me, each issue has certain degrees of difficult associated with it.

I'd think a bogus car or fake car is one turned into something it originally wasn't - like taking a plain Chevelle, putting SS stuff and a 454 in there, and faking stamps, build sheets, etc. and then a miracle occurs and it becomes a rare LS6. That's a bogus/fake car. Something that never was, but now is. If the GM records miraculously appeared, there wouldn't be a car in that configuration with those numbers. Those are flat-out wrong.

Restamping engines or trannies or rears to fake them and make them appear to be original to a car when they aren't isn't right either. Then again, I feel the same way about new "dated" glass too, although most people feel differently about engine stamps and dates than glass dates.

The grayest area seems to be the repair/restoration of "real" or special cars and the process that's used. Repairing every piece of metal is apparently not a legal crime as long as you don't remove the tags, right?

However, while there usually isn't any original body panels remaining when a severely deteriorated car is restored, it's not morally wrong for the collector/enthusiast either if the whole thing has been rebuilt around a roof and firewall.

But, taking that original rusty car and transferring everything (factory drivetrain, wiring, interior, tags, whatever) to a better shell/chunk of original metal that rolled down the same assembly line through the same plant and was built the same way and treating it much like a repair part or panel is wrong? I know it crosses the legal line due to the tag swap, but overlooking that, how is it any different to the end result of restoring/saving a car?

Another scenario that gets real murky is when someone has a rusted hulk with pedigreed tags and NO factory original drivetrain or the parts that made it special in the first place. Taking a VIN, putting it on another shell, and then faking an engine and drivetrain and the rest of the car around it isn't right either. I see less of an issue with transferring all the original parts to a different shell than I do with taking a VIN and cowl tag and faking a drivetrain and car around it.

Each person has their opinion, and this will never be resolved. My intent was to just type and try and sort out my own thoughts. Thanks for reading!

SamLBInj

11-10-2005, 11:34 PM

Question, If you take a Yenko cowl section with vin and trim tag and graft it onto a 69 Shelby Mustang is it still a Yenko? Thats what a rebody amounts to.

jfkheat

11-10-2005, 11:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I know of several very suspect cars right now, if exposed, would cause all h-ll to break loose. And who could blame someone for being upset, who had paid big $$ for a car, only to hear that it was bogus. And then, what about the seller, who suddenly was under attack, maybe even in court. A sticky wicket to say the least.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's statements like that where I have a problem. These "suspect" cars will probably never be revealed for what they are because of who they belong to. But let any other supercar or muscle car come up and people are all over it telling what all is wrong with it. In my opinion, it is more acceptable to replace 80% or 90% of a $250K supercar than it is to replace the same amount on a $40K muscle car. It all about the all mighty dollar.
James

PeteLeathersac

11-11-2005, 12:03 AM

Great situations of reference, both the real and supossed ones! . Again I'll say the intent to defraud would be an important one if a buyer expected sucess in litigation. . For sure it's a big grey area some don't want clarification on but the DMV definition above gives a good idea of how it would be looked at legally. . A tough point I see is the "creator" of the item in question is not necesarily the person commiting the fraud (whether he be the bodyman or orchestrator of the puzzle) if he keeps his records and facts open and discloses all at sale time. . When finished however, the person who titles or sells the item without filing the necessary DMV paperwork is who would be "looked poorly on" and always remember that old saying, ignorance of the law is no excuse! . With so many scenarios to consider, it's tough to draw a line anywhere? . A "firewall" car or any method thats true purpose is to transfer the Vin and hidden Vin is questionable....and if the car is so rusty, why is the firewall being welded into a nice body other than to transfer identity? . The biggest thing I get from this whole thread is, a genuine survivor car is worth a whole lot more than a restored car no mater how "perfect or correct" the restoration car is! ~ Pete

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

11-11-2005, 12:17 AM

While we are exploring situations here:

A car has a firewall job done when it was only 1.5 years old as a repair while under insurance. The firewall effort was not concealed, and was just ripped across the floorboards - rockers and all. The original green paint is still visible on this blue car.

What is it? Is it acceptable as a repair? The motive at the time it was done was to repair it, not to defraud anyone.

SS427

11-11-2005, 12:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
While we are exploring situations here:

A car has a firewall job done when it was only 1.5 years old as a repair while under insurance. The firewall effort was not concealed, and was just ripped across the floorboards - rockers and all. The original green paint is still visible on this blue car.

What is it? Is it acceptable as a repair? The motive at the time it was done was to repair it, not to defraud anyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perfect example Marlin! We think of nothing about these cars that were in fact repaired back in their infant days but the same job done today is taboo. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

PeteLeathersac

11-11-2005, 12:35 AM

A car has a firewall job done when it was only 1.5 years old as a repair while under insurance. The firewall effort was not concealed, and was just ripped across the floorboards - rockers and all. The original green paint is still visible on this blue car.

What is it? Is it acceptable as a repair? The motive at the time it was done was to repair it, not to defraud anyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the proof is there to support the above, the intent to defraud is not there....yet! . Sounds like a "clipped" car which is cut/joined through the floors and A-pilars and a common repair shop situation. . So, here we are years later, do you now clean up the poor workmanship....probably, even though it "disguises" this repair fact further. . Just when you sell the car you need to pass this information on to the next owner and it's best to do this on paper so if he ever sells it without doing the same to the susequent buyer, he can't say he wasn't aware! ~ Pete

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

11-11-2005, 01:16 AM

See, I do see something wrong with the 1.5 year old repair - in that, I would not want to own it! The original car is long gone, only the firewall (+some rocker & toe board material) remains. The intent was clearly not there, but it is still a firewalled car. It's very muddy waters here.

camarojoe

11-11-2005, 02:09 AM

I agree 100% Marlin. IMO, a rebody is a rebody...period. It makes no difference when it was done, who did it, or who does or doesn't know about it. As much as people like to argue about it, the fact remains that no one REALLY thinks its ok to do anyhow. Those who do it generally keep very quiet that they did it, while at the same time, lots of supercars/musclecars have extensive panel replacement and thats rarely a big secret. In fact, its often used as a positive feature... how many ads list "New GM sheetmetal" as a selling factor? Lots. Thats because replacing alot of sheetmetal is WAY different than putting a firewall from one car onto a different car and calling it restored.

Once again, replacing sheetmetal and clipping a complete car and welding the firewall onto another one is not, was not, and will never be "the same thing" no matter how much folks try to tell themselves (or others) that it is. I have yet to see a car that had a useable firewall and tags, but NOTHING at all that was salvageable on it from the firewall back.

Hopefully my point is understood, because thats all i have to say on the matter. Everyone can "debate" the definition all they want, but in my mind, the difference between panel replacement and rebodying is rather clear.

Seattle Sam

11-11-2005, 07:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
While we are exploring situations here:

A car has a firewall job done when it was only 1.5 years old as a repair while under insurance. The firewall effort was not concealed, and was just ripped across the floorboards - rockers and all. The original green paint is still visible on this blue car.

What is it? Is it acceptable as a repair? The motive at the time it was done was to repair it, not to defraud anyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aren't cars this badly damaged normally totalled by the insurance company? And, if someone pieces two cars together, a salvage title is issued? I just don't think this sounds like a realistic scenario.
-Sam

71SSNova

11-11-2005, 03:47 PM

SS427

11-11-2005, 04:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Aren't cars this badly damaged normally totalled by the insurance company? And, if someone pieces two cars together, a salvage title is issued? I just don't think this sounds like a realistic scenario.
-Sam

[/ QUOTE ]

Sam,
Assuming we were talking about cars that were rebuilt from a totaled car in the late 60s or early 70s, they did not have salvage titles then (at least not MN) so yes this could be very realistic.
Rick

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

11-11-2005, 04:30 PM

Very good point Sam. I forgot about Dan's car, but that is a perfect example to answer Sam's question. I don't know why the repair was done the way it was on some of these cars, but that is how they exist today.

My example is a real live Deuce, and the current owner bought it that way in '72 or so. It is of no consequence to him, he didn't do the damage or the firewall job.

So, somehow this level of repair is ok for some not for others, but Slim Shady's example of cowl patch panel repair is ok - or not?

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

11-11-2005, 04:40 PM

Anyone recall this little gem of a story? What will this car be when it reappears?

Short update on the HH car;

The original owner of this car confirms that it was a Tuxedo Black, X11 Copo that was purchased from Wallace Chevrolet in Linden, NJ. The owner removed the VIN (616462)and Trim Tag many years ago, and junked the car. The owner retained the bill of sale, dash bezel, the doors, a fender and possibly the transmission. The owner told each of us the same story, that there was no body and it was junked 20 years ago in northern NJ. These items were for sale, however, approx. 6 people passed on the deal because there was no firewall - much less an entire car. One person considered buying the items as memorabilia, and to prevent a rebody, but the price was prohibitive for that purpose.

About a month ago, I received word that somebody in NY claimed to have bought these items from the orig owner. Additionally, the claim is that the original body was found and pulled from a junk yard after 20+ years even though the orig owner did not remember where the body went. The plan is to restore the car, not sure if it will be done as the HH or factory.

Take it for what it's worth, but beware

--------------------

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/45259/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1

PeteLeathersac

11-11-2005, 05:20 PM

Good points and ideas, but first I think a few definitions of the types of "repair"....rebodied, clipped, firewalled....whatever is in order before condeming one or the other. . Personally I think the above scenario using a rear clip from a donor car as a different thing than a "firewall car". . It seems like a firewall car may sometimes be a car who's firewall has been spliced and sectioned out to retain the hidden Vin also not disturb the Vin tag area itself?
Lets just get deep into it and present another scenario. . It's your lucky day. . You find a ZL1 Camaro deal. . Sadly it's become part of the ground sitting in a backyard since 1970 but it's genuine, the motor, trans, rear and tags are all there and are all THE originals. . The original owner has passed away and his wife is an old lady in an old folks home. . With the deal is a another '69 in the garage, the wife's car, it's a clean 307 car, even a stick! . Lucky again as she'd left the files w/ original bill of sales, window stickers and POPs for both cars on the visor of the car in the garage! . Oh, the old folks home just called too and the old lady has passed away, now at peace with the news her cars have found a good home. . It's all in your shop now....lets look over what we've got and see how we're gonna' fix this one Goob? ~ Pete

Racefan

11-11-2005, 05:38 PM

You handle the situation the same as you SHOULD if the bank made an error and added three zeros to your checking account balance. They probably won't find out (actually, they will), but what is the RIGHT thing to do. It is the people who don't do the RIGHT thing that we are talking about. Who here is one of those who would say nothing. I personally would like to know, so I can NOT purchase anything from you in the future.

PeteLeathersac

11-11-2005, 06:00 PM

I personally feel it's difficult to comment on what someone should do in any real situations. . Whether right or wrong, lets hypothetically "repair" the imagined ZL1 by a rebody, firewalling....a few different ways and define what these repairs are termed. . I'm not into calling anything bogus....just feel clarification of the definitions is important and everyone can have their own opninon of what's right or wrong. ~ Pete

moparts

11-11-2005, 06:13 PM

Ok...Just thinking outloud here...

Car 1. All origional car like it was the day it rolled off the assembly line. Lets say worth $1,000,000

Car 2. Body all origional sheetmetal, but driveline, or interior, or other non body items bought to make car look as good or better than car 1. Still worth $1 mil. ?????

Car 3. Body needs quarters, maybe a floor pan or 2, driveline, interior, all trim and badges. When done looks better than car 1 or car 2. Still worth $1 mil. ???????

Car 4. Total rust bucket that you save the firewall and door posts and take other sheetmetal or car and weld to it. Looks better than any assembley line car could look when done. Still worth $1 mil. ?????

Car 5. Total rust bucket, needs everything, cut out firewall, transfer to good body, when done car looks like a million dollars. Still worth $1 mil. ??????

My take is Car 1 should be worth the most money.

Car 2 even though close has to be worth less.

Car 3 though good when done just has to be worth less. I think it falls into the catagory of new car drove off the lot and then gets hit in fender. Even though fixed and looks like new it won't bring the new price and shouldn't.

Car 4 and 5 to me fall in the same catagory, they are not the origional cars no matter how much they look like them. Maybe car 4 is worth a little more but I wouldn't want to be the one that bought that car for a mint and then found out later that the only thing origional on it was the door posts.

Now jump to the other side...I have these cars for sale.

Car 1 Has to be worth more than any other of these cars because: #1 Its all origional #2 I have it and its all origional #3 non of the other cars are all origional. #4 Did I mention its all origional.

Car 2 #1 My car is just like car 1 it has all origional sheetmetal #2 I spent $$$$$$$$ restoring this car back to all origional condition. #3 Did I mention that this car has all origional sheetmetal just like Car 1.

Car 3 #1 This car is just like car 1 #2 no expence was spared restoring this car, making sure that all nos parts were used. #3 Car 1 sold for $1 mil. and this car is just like it.

Car 4 and 5 #1 the body? yea we used all origional or nos sheetmetal to restore this car. #2 dirveline matching? yea all the codes are correct for that year car. #3 price? yea car 1 sold for $1 mil and this car looks better than it does.

Now quoting my old dad, "They say my farm is worth 10 times more than I paid for it. I want them to lay the cold hard cash in my had, then I will believe them"

Anything for sale is worth as much as someone at that moment is willing to pay for it.

With help from the good folks on this site I hope that no one gets burned with a car that is a outright fake. With the information out there I also hope that no one buys a rebody in any shape form or fashion thinking that it is a all origional car. But if they know the facts and still want the car for the price asked then far be it from me to put the car down.

There are some great guys on this site that know what they are doing when looking at a car. They are more than willing to help and at times go out of their way to make sure things are what they are supposed to be. Brian H. helped me out when I bought the Turbo Z and I will be forever thankful. It has turned into a buyer beware world, so don't be afraid to ask for help.

SamLBInj

11-11-2005, 06:17 PM

The Unintentional Rebody Scenerio...
You find a nice fully documented ZL1 needing new floor and trunk pan and interior, ok, you get it done and take it for a ride and get side swiped. Now we put on a new front fender, driver door and rear quarter, primer it all up and go for another ride and get side swiped on the other side and we replace passenger door, front fender and rear quarter and primer it up and go for a drive and park it next to a high rise, you come out of the porn shop and, Bam, a freggin Piano falls on it and crushes the roof, hood and trunk. So we replace those and primer it up and back to the porn shop we go, now while reading our favorite books we come back out and the entire drive train gets stolen so now we go and find some date matching parts and put them in and go and get a new paint job. 10 years and 20 owners later the car sells and somebody gets this beautiful ZL1, fully documented and sells it as original for top dollar...Would it mater if it happened over time or at one time?

Mr70

11-11-2005, 06:21 PM

I don't know,but I'd move out of that neighborhood if I was you.

SamLBInj

11-11-2005, 06:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know,but I'd move out of that neighborhood if I was you.

[/ QUOTE ]
I would but I get a pretty nice discount at that porn shop http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

11-11-2005, 06:38 PM

They didn't cut the firewall out, and didn't swap tags. It's just been repaired more times, and more extensively than any car I've ever seen. The moral of your example is to stay out of the stinkin porn shops http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

camaromb

11-11-2005, 06:45 PM

I think we can all agree that we all have different levels of "acceptability" in terms of replaced metal. The law is very clear in regards to the vin removal/re-installation. To protect the truly original cars and to protect the buyers of these supercars it would be nice to have a documented history along with each car. The long term supercar enthusiasts could collaborate to compile a accurate history of most of these known cars. Will it happen is another question. There are people who might not like the truth to come out on many of these cars. I would hope that if I happened to spend $ 1,400,000 for instance for some supercars, it might be nice to know I bought a rebody, ex-race car, etc.,etc...
How clean will the hobby become? I think we all can contribute. I for one hope to see this happen in the future.

Mark

Charley Lillard

11-11-2005, 06:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
They didn't cut the firewall out, and didn't swap tags. It's just been repaired more times, and more extensively than any car I've ever seen. The moral of your example is to stay out of the stinkin porn shops http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you know the porn shops stink Marlin ?

Belair62

11-11-2005, 06:52 PM

Camaromb....I will be over next week with copies of all your notes and help you complile them....oh never mind I forgot I made copies when you weren't there one day !!!

Jeff H

11-11-2005, 07:06 PM

Lots of good examples and thoughts on the subject. But it seems without some legal defintion that is shared across states(and Canada too, eh) it will be hard to set a standard. I'm leaning towards the original VIN tag still being attached to the original dash and original firewall with the hidden VIN. That to me represents the original shell. Now if the floor and roof section gets cut and another rear section welded up, that is no longer the original shell but it could be hard to detect if the work was done well. In the end, don't most of the cars become "buyer beware" and that's why so many people come to these sites to ask questions about a given car's history? That's what's great about sites like this and people sharing information. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

SamLBInj

11-11-2005, 07:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They didn't cut the firewall out, and didn't swap tags. It's just been repaired more times, and more extensively than any car I've ever seen. The moral of your example is to stay out of the stinkin porn shops http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you know the porn shops stink Marlin ?

[/ QUOTE ]
The good ones have a fishy smell to them http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

PeteLeathersac

11-11-2005, 07:13 PM

Can someone define "firewalling" for me? . Is this as car #5 above....using a donor cowl and door posts but grafting in "enough" of the original car to include the hidden Vin also the undisturbed Vin tag itelf....or is it like car #4 which uses the original car cowl w/ posts??? . Thanks! ~ Pete

SamLBInj

11-11-2005, 07:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Can someone define "firewalling" for me? . Is this as car #5 above....using a donor cowl and door posts but grafting in "enough" of the original car to include the hidden Vin also the undisturbed Vin tag itelf....or is it like car #4 which uses the original car cowl w/ posts??? . Thanks! ~ Pete

[/ QUOTE ]
Its all semantics, if the vin was on the gas cap you could screw it on any car you wanted and it would become "original".

Allen

11-11-2005, 07:35 PM

So, at the end of the day.......

Do they look good? Sound cool? And go really quick?

SamLBInj

11-11-2005, 07:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So, at the end of the day.......

Do they look good? Sound cool? And go really quick?

[/ QUOTE ]
There are alot of cars under 20 grand that fit that profile, its when you pay 6 figures for a "gas cap" that make you wonder.

PeteLeathersac

11-11-2005, 08:13 PM

Nobody on the firewalling question? . The cowl w/ tags as the only original part left is an old one in the car hobby....extensive restorations starting from no more than this is what some expensive Bugatti's, Duesenbergs and the like have been brought back from. . The've usually had to fabricate the other components though, not having the luxury of a mass produced donor car. . Usually all is well documented and the story is up front and available when sale time comes. . I'll go out on a limb and say, if not using a whole cowl w/ door posts and grafting "enough" of a vehicle to move the identity without disturbing the Vin tag and hidden Vin is what firewalling is, than this is where the line gets crossed. . Again anyone can do what they like but with the values now, the buyer should be aware in writing with any of the situations suggested. ~ Pete

71SSNova

11-11-2005, 10:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Can someone define "firewalling" for me? . Is this as car #5 above....using a donor cowl and door posts but grafting in "enough" of the original car to include the hidden Vin also the undisturbed Vin tag itelf....or is it like car #4 which uses the original car cowl w/ posts??? . Thanks! ~ Pete

[/ QUOTE ]
My understanding of firewall is car #5. Taking the firewall with the vin tag and hidden vins of the super car and welding into a good body of a plain jane 6 cyl.

PeteLeathersac

11-12-2005, 12:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can someone define "firewalling" for me? . Is this as car #5 above....using a donor cowl and door posts but grafting in "enough" of the original car to include the hidden Vin also the undisturbed Vin tag itelf....or is it like car #4 which uses the original car cowl w/ posts??? . Thanks! ~ Pete

[/ QUOTE ]

My understanding of firewall is car #5. Taking the firewall with the vin tag and hidden vins of the super car and welding into a good body of a plain jane 6 cyl.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks....that's what I expected but it seems to be something that some don't want clarified? ~ Pete

Supercar_Kid

11-12-2005, 07:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
While we are exploring situations here:

A car has a firewall job done when it was only 1.5 years old as a repair while under insurance. The firewall effort was not concealed, and was just ripped across the floorboards - rockers and all. The original green paint is still visible on this blue car.

What is it? Is it acceptable as a repair? The motive at the time it was done was to repair it, not to defraud anyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aren't cars this badly damaged normally totalled by the insurance company? And, if someone pieces two cars together, a salvage title is issued? I just don't think this sounds like a realistic scenario.
-Sam

[/ QUOTE ]
Believe me Sam it's a realistic scenario with a real world Supercar. Take into consideration what some of these cars cost when they were new, and that most of them shared essentially the same body shells as their much less expesive counterparts. If a Supercar got wrecked when it still had alot of value, or alot of $ was still owed on the loan it's entirely feasable that the repair would be deemed more economical by simply using the Supercar's original drivetrain and firewall, but most of the body from another wrecked, and less expensive model of the same vehicle. Again, back when the said Supercar was only a year or so old, it wasn't reconstructed with fradulent intentions in mind, or in an attempt to make something out of nothing, only to repair a very expensive, very badly damaged, essentially brand new low mileage car.

What isn't known is how or why this real world scenario occured, or what the true story of the original body is, only that it's been gone prior to the current owner picking it up when it was less than 2 years old. The interesting twist here, is that the current owner has never even really owned the "original Supercar" body only what's been grafted to the original Supercar cowl some 30 odd years ago. The car is definitely a "rebody" by all definitions with all but it's original cowl MIA, but the rub is it's all he's ever known, and it is the car he's owned and enjoyed driving for years.

Now the real hypothetical is what if the rebodied Supercar that got rebodied back in the first 1-2 years of the car's life goes on to make some real race history for itself with the "donor" body? What if we learned tomorrow that Ed Hedrick's DY sYc Camaro was rebodied when it was only a few months old? We do know it had the quarter panel smashed and replaced after a flat towing incident which is actually why that particular car was given to Ed, but let's pretend the damage was so extensive it required a firewall job before Don handed it over to Ed. If you found that car today, what would you call it? It would definitely still be a "rebody" by definition, but I probably couldn't help but call it the Holy Grail. Interesting discussion...

Seattle Sam

11-13-2005, 04:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
While we are exploring situations here:

A car has a firewall job done when it was only 1.5 years old as a repair while under insurance. The firewall effort was not concealed, and was just ripped across the floorboards - rockers and all. The original green paint is still visible on this blue car.

What is it? Is it acceptable as a repair? The motive at the time it was done was to repair it, not to defraud anyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aren't cars this badly damaged normally totalled by the insurance company? And, if someone pieces two cars together, a salvage title is issued? I just don't think this sounds like a realistic scenario.
-Sam

[/ QUOTE ]
Believe me Sam it's a realistic scenario with a real world Supercar.

[/ QUOTE ]

I stand corrected, there's no denying facts!

[ QUOTE ]
Now the real hypothetical is what if the rebodied Supercar that got rebodied back in the first 1-2 years of the car's life goes on to make some real race history for itself with the "donor" body? What if we learned tomorrow that Ed Hedrick's DY sYc Camaro was rebodied when it was only a few months old? We do know it had the quarter panel smashed and replaced after a flat towing incident which is actually why that particular car was given to Ed, but let's pretend the damage was so extensive it required a firewall job before Don handed it over to Ed. If you found that car today, what would you call it? It would definitely still be a "rebody" by definition, but I probably couldn't help but call it the Holy Grail. Interesting discussion...

[/ QUOTE ]

Is the history of a car what makes it valuable? I think it is, and for proof I offer up the importance of original documentation and history in enhancing the value of any super car or muscle car. The Ed Hedrick car is certainly more interesting to people than, say, another Daytona Yellow Yenko with no docs but on the VIN list. And unrestored cars tend to draw more attention than the perfect restoration, because we are always interested to see a car as it was "in the day".

Based on this, I would say that your example of a car that was firewalled early in its existence, would still have its history, even though it is missing most of the sheet metal it left the factory with.

What is more valuable, a car with it's original "skin" or sheet metal, but a replacement engine, trans, and rear, or a "firewalled" car with it's original "heart" or drive train? Which would you rather have? I know there are some who say "I would never own a rebody" and there are others that insist on the original, documented drive train. Some even accept only unrestored cars! But for most of us, these are available in such limited number as to be nearly unattainable. SO, would you buy that COPO with most of its original sheet metal but non-original motor, or would you buy the one with all replacement sheet metal ("rebody") but the original motor, trans, etc.??

Charley Lillard

11-13-2005, 04:57 AM

We all have our own opinions on what is a rebody and they will probably differ forever. Probably the most important thing to me would be that whatever was done be disclosed to a potential buyer. The buyer can then make his own decision on if it is a car he wants...

RPOZ26

11-13-2005, 05:28 AM

I kown of a 70 Chevelle 454 SS car that has a rusty vin tag that you can't read at all. The car was taken in for a CT inspection and ended up getting inpounded. The CT state PB told him he could get the car back if the hidden vin # matched the reg and paper work to the car,if not good by car hello prison. Lucky for him the hidden vin on the firewall (yes they took the car apart)and the vin on the tanny matched the paper work. If I was spending 50k or more on a car I would want to see hidding vins that match paper work. Ed

Allen

11-13-2005, 07:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]

What is more valuable, a car with it's original "skin" or sheet metal, but a replacement engine, trans, and rear, or a "firewalled" car with it's original "heart" or drive train? Which would you rather have? I know there are some who say "I would never own a rebody" and there are others that insist on the original, documented drive train. Some even accept only unrestored cars! But for most of us, these are available in such limited number as to be nearly unattainable. SO, would you buy that COPO with most of its original sheet metal but non-original motor, or would you buy the one with all replacement sheet metal ("rebody") but the original motor, trans, etc.??

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd put more of a priority/importance on having THE factory original matching drivetrain. That's the heart of the car and what contributes to the driving experience. That's what these SS and COPO specials are all about.

I've read the phrase here about "putting the tag and engine in a base 6-cylinder body....". Pretty much all of the time, the bodies weren't differentiated between on a COPO, SS, or plain low-optioned car. The shells all went through Fisher body, got welded up the same, painted the same, and then were put together. The bodies are the same, and the difference was in what's bolted to them for options.

Is a "rebody" less of a sin if the drivetrain was transferred to the shell of another COPO/SS/whatever than a body that wasn't originally built that way?

More rhetorical questions that no one will ever agree on. It's a shame the whole financial side distracts people from appreciating the art, machinery, and driving experience aspect of the cars. I thought about that today as I took my Nova out for a cruise. No matter what I did, I just wasn't able to read any numbers on the firewall while rowing that Hurst through the gears and feeling that big block push me back in the seat. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

Musclecarkid

11-13-2005, 07:30 AM

Amen, What he said. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Stuart Adams

11-13-2005, 07:39 AM

If you remove the tag and place it on another car - Mike Tyson cell mate. If a Supercar is found and not restorable unless the tags are swapped - no guarantees in life, lifes a bitch, what rule sais it's Ok to swap it, because its rare and worth $, NOT.
If you have the firewall section and tag attatched from the factory and re panel the car - that is OK in my book, not fraud. Be honest about it.
You can put any drivetrain option you want in all these cars but don't mess with the VIN/TAG, pretty simple in my mind. Can't be a special provision because of money ( like people with big cash getting special treatment when they break the law).
Heck, if you live in Woodland and drive a Chevy with an airplane motor in it its still within the rules....

camarojoe

11-13-2005, 09:53 AM

Allen, I disagree, and this is MY silly analogy of why....

The day Elvis Presley (or pick your favorite celeb) was born, there were 100 other newborns just like him born at the same hospital and cared for by the same people... that doesn't make every kid born in the hospital that day an Elvis Presley... just like it doesn't make every Camaro body that rolled off the line at Norwood "the same" as one that became a COPO or Yenko, Motion, etc...the fact they all originated in the same place doesn't mean jack squat... I don't buy into this idea that it doesn't matter what body is behind the VIN and trim tags... that's as important as the driveline IMO...maybe more so. If I were to buy into your way of thinking, then every clone car, 6 cylinder, or 307 powerglide car out there is one set of tags away from becoming a "real" COPO or Yenko supercar... It doesn't work that way... A COPO might have had 7 engines and 6 transmissions in it over its "lifetime", but its still a COPO or a Yenko... but it doesn't matter how many L72's you've stuffed between the fenders of a car that was originally a 6 cylinder, its never gonna be a supercar. And thats not to say a non-supercar isn't fun, fast, or enjoyable to own and enjoy... It just is NOT a supercar and never will be. I don't care if you rebody a supercar with non-supercar body that was originally painted in the same color, with the same interior color and trim level, built on the same day by the same guys, one car down the line... its still not the right thing to do.You can't rebody a supercar without losing the car's soul. I'd take a real car with zero original drivetrain over a fake car with every mechanical part added from a real one.

kwhizz

11-13-2005, 05:16 PM

2000 year debate........... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

RichSchmidt

11-14-2005, 05:02 AM

I see where you are going with your post,but you have to remember that all but a very few of the most valuable supercars actually have what could be considered a "restorable" skin.Basically all thats left out there on the unrestored supercar market are rusted out hulks that are being pulled out of the mud in junkyards,and hacked up race cars that have nothing but their original firewall,roofskin and doorjambs intact.People are still trying to restore these cars.We arent talking about some cars with a few litle rust holes and some dents,we are talking about cars that are damaged so bad that they often dont have enough structure left to them to allow the doors to be opened without the body breaking in half.You can replace any single part of a car's body and it is O.K.,but of you replace all of those parts together it is wrong.You mention these supercars as if they were people,but they are not.Unlike people,cars can exist as any sort of comglomeration of parts,and here are some scenerios.

Car one is a "restored original".The original car had extensive rust and collisoin damage which is typical of most 35 year old cars.During the repair of this damage,the car had it's entire florpan replaced with a chinese repop,it had both full quarters replaced by NOS pieces,it had the rear frame sections replaced by chinese repops,it had the trunk floor and dropiffs replaced,it had the roofskin replaced,it had the toeboards replaced,the tail panel and both inner and outer wheelhouses were also replaced,it had both full rockers replaced with full repops,and it had the upper cowl area replaced at which time the VIN and cowl tag had to be reattached onto the replaced upper cowl box.When the job was done,the only original sheet metal on this car would be the lower portion of the firewall,the litle scrap of sheet metal around the trunk weahterstrip,and the rear kickup panel.This is pretty typical of the restoration involved on a 35 year old car.When it is done,the expert craftsmen who performed the work will make sure that every spot weld and every swath of overspray is as close to original as possible.

Car number 2 started out as an equally damaged supercar.Instead of replacing each part one at a time,the owner extracted the few useable parts from his original car and discarded the remainder into the dumpster{which is where all these parts from the first car ended up}.Now the difference is that instead of spending 2 years and endless dollars trying to recreate what GM made 30 years ago,he goes on a seatch for an original unrestored and rust free 6 cylinder car.He then atached all his remaining parts to the 6 cylinder body,sends it out to be cleaned and then refinishes it just as was done in car #1.Now however instead of having to guess how many spot welds held the inner and outer wheelhouses together,and having to try and replicate the spacing of each weld,and replicateing the brushmarks of the seamealer,he has a car with parts that actually left GM 35 years ago in assembled form.

So which car is a more acurrate depcition of the original.

Car number 1 is totally legal since each panel was replaced one at a time despite the fact that most of the parts werent even made in American let alone 35 years old.Car number 2 is a fraud and should be banished to the junkyard where it should be shredded before it can ever possible confuse anybody into believing it is original.

Of course in a perfect world,all restored cars would be time capsule survivors that required nothing but a fresh coat of wax and some armorall to be in show winning condition.In reality,all but about 10 percent of all the original supercars were in the condition of the cars mentioned above.Maybe in the opinion of some people,these car should both be destroyed to make the true survivors more valuable,but as long as it is O.K. to replace any single piece on one of those survivors,you will have a hard time telling the owners of cars 1 and 2 that they cant replace all of the peices at the same time.

camarojoe

11-14-2005, 05:52 PM

Without question its car #1. Its got lots of replacement stuff, but its still the car you started with... Car # 2 is a rebody, and the original car is in the dumpster...what you made with car #2 is basically a clone with supercar tags.

Allen

11-14-2005, 06:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Car # 2 is a rebody, and the original car is in the dumpster...what you made with car #2 is basically a clone with supercar tags.

[/ QUOTE ]

A rebody, yes, due to replacing that magic firewall part of the shell, but how can it be called a clone if it has the original engine/tranny/rear that corresponds with the VIN?

Mr70

11-14-2005, 06:51 PM

I call that a Transplant.

camarojoe

11-14-2005, 06:52 PM

Its a clone because the car assigned that Vin, trim tag, and drivetrain are not with the car they came with, they are in a 6 cylinder car.

Allen

11-14-2005, 07:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Its a clone because the car assigned that Vin, trim tag, and drivetrain are not with the car they came with, they are in a 6 cylinder car.

[/ QUOTE ]

With that sort of logic, it almost would seem that a "clone" of what was there originally would be when a replacement/restamped non-original drivetrain is installed in that original body. That's a replication of what was originally there, but isn't anymore. Blow the motor, replace it with something that appears to represent what was there, it's now a clone.

They didn't put the shells together any differently between a 6 cyl. Camaro/Nova and a big block SS or Yenko Camaro/Nova...... A shell is a shell is a shell..... It's that engine option on the order form and engineering bill of materials that made that VIN represent something special and drove all of other special hardware that accompanied it.

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

11-14-2005, 07:08 PM

I agree with Joe, car #2 is simply a clone - the soul is gone. The original drivetrain is very important to me, second only to the original car's 'soul'. I don't care how much sheetmetal was replaced, as long as the orig. shell was used. The scenario of using the 6cyl body to dup the spot welds etc.. is simply a copout to save money. You save the bad cars with extra amounts of work/money because your hearts in it - not because of the payoff.

I might add that richschmidts %'s are bit off, it's more like 10% of the supercars are in this bracket as opposed to 90%. I have personally seen many unrestored supercars that were in very good condition. I also know of many more that are doing just fine, are unrestored, but the owners just want them left alone. So, there are quite a number of unrestored supercars out there that have never seen a muddy dump! I'm not tellin you where though http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

camarojoe

11-14-2005, 07:10 PM

Maybe clone isn't the best choice of words since it at least has the correct tags on it, but the real car is gone and its definitely a rebody or "tag car". "Transplant" even works for me. I still will not ever be conviced a rebody using a non-supercar body is as good or better than fixing the REAL car... but do whatever makes you feel good... My personal definition of a rebody is pretty simple, and I will not ever be conviced that all you need to have a supercar is a set of tags and/or some driveline parts... but I guess some feel thats all you need.. I'm glad at least some people feel the same as I do .

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

11-14-2005, 07:19 PM

I know of a Yenko chevelle with another Yenko chevelle's drivetrain in it, what does that make it - a double yenko http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif My head is starting to hurt!

PeteLeathersac

11-14-2005, 07:33 PM

Hey....everyone's opinion will be different like in every car deal....but the facts need to be on the table come sale time. . Personal opinions too but a "firewalled" car seems wrong when the true intent becomes transfering the identity of one vehicle to another. . Starting from a cowl section with door posts or more is a different story as the true identity remains intact (and the true identity cowl isn't leftover as spare parts like a firewalled car would). . Certification being the original question, it would depend on what's been certified. . Isn't Ed's service just that the Vin is one of the cars and no inspection of what the car is now? . A person who's willing to put all the restoration, early accident or survivor facts on the table should still be able to be certified but allowing these facts to be known to more than a buyer and noted as such with the certification provided. . Again personal opinions here....not endorsed or affiliated with this station or any person living or dead....operators are standing by....have your charge card ready....opinions may change at midnight tomorrow. ~ Pete

Belair62

11-14-2005, 08:30 PM

I agree with you...

Salvatore

11-14-2005, 08:30 PM

If I had a choice I care more about an original sheetmetal car. Whether it a Z/28, COPO Yenko etc. I believe the first buyer started out buying the car he saw on the show room floor. The main attraction was the Z/28 or SS package (style trim) then I think the performance parts played into it. If you bought a Yenko in 1969 and warranty replaced the motor in 1970, would that bother you more than if a body shop put your drive train in a 1969 donor car in 1970 after you totaled the car? The donor car really isn't the car you bought in my opinion. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

11-14-2005, 08:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Whether it a Z/28, COPO Yenko etc. I believe the first buyer started out buying the car he saw on the show room floor. The main attraction was the Z/28 or SS package (style trim) then I think the performance parts played into it.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you are saying that people paid extra to have the look vs. the performance?

Salvatore

11-14-2005, 08:37 PM

Well I think for me it was the look of the 69 SS nova that I liked. Than we sat down and went through the options. Obviously I didn't want a 307 2 barrel car but I liked the looks of the nova.

Xplantdad

11-14-2005, 08:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I know of a Yenko chevelle with another Yenko chevelle's drivetrain in it, what does that make it - a double yenko http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif My head is starting to hurt!

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Marlin...right there with you! My head started hurting about 30 posts ago... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Belair62

11-14-2005, 08:40 PM

It's a great subject...

Salvatore

11-14-2005, 08:51 PM

So are TastyKakes! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

camarojoe

11-14-2005, 09:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you bought a Yenko in 1969 and warranty replaced the motor in 1970, would that bother you more than if a body shop put your drive train in a 1969 donor car in 1970 after you totaled the car? The donor car really isn't the car you bought in my opinion. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said Sam, and this is exactly the way i think too.

DarrenX33

11-14-2005, 09:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So are TastyKakes!

[/ QUOTE ]

By the way. Their gone!

moparts

11-14-2005, 09:11 PM

Ok here is something to ponder.

Car 1 say a ZL1 Bought new and raced by origional owner. Has ton's of paperwork from day 1 and picture history of car. After 10 years of racing car is so cut, bent and broke that origional owner can't afford to rebuild car using what is left of origional body. Origional owner finds a good doner body and retags car and continues racing car.(Origional body was crushed, hidden vin numbers along with it, since this was just a race car to origional owner) 30 years later "Fred lots a money" buys car and rebuilds back to show condition spending say $??,???. How much is car worth in todays market with the buyer knowing all the story?

Car 2 ZL1 Found by "Fred" no history, no paperwork, rusted to the ground. Removes hidden numbers and all tags and puts said pieces on a rust free doner car spending the same $??,??? as on car 1. Now same question how much is car 2 worth?

A: 1 worth more

B: 2 worth more

C: 1 and 2 worth same

D: None of the above

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

11-14-2005, 09:29 PM

Option E: Drink more beer, hoping that the can you're holding is actually part of car #1 http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

PeteLeathersac

11-14-2005, 09:33 PM

So car # 1 is a donor body with it's donor car hidden Vin intact if you look....and the long gone ZL1's Vin and supposed trim tags attached to this donor body? . And all re-attaching of tags was done years ago by a known or unknown person? . Car # 2 basically gets the same treatment by Fred differing only by the fact he "firewalls" the car to include the hidden Vin at time of identity transfer. . Personal opinions again....first I feel both cars would be of interest to the Feds and at risk of having all tags pulled and confiscated and new Vins assigned, greatly devaluing the cars if that happened. . On the above choices, I'll pick D with a side of wondering if Fred is going to the jailhouse for what he does to cars?? ~ Pete

moparts

11-14-2005, 10:11 PM

"I'll pick D with a side of wondering if Fred is going to the jailhouse for what he does to cars?? "

Ahhhhh but Fred didn't have anything to do with car 1 having non matching hidden numbers!

Mr70

11-14-2005, 10:13 PM

Is "Freds" last name Bain? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

PeteLeathersac

11-14-2005, 10:18 PM

Yup...Fred may be in the clear legally for Car #1. . It's his #2 car that he'd be squirming on if the feds came calling? . He'd be on the hook financially pretty bad if the feds grab the tags and do a reissue Vin! ~ Pete

kwhizz

11-14-2005, 10:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Option E: Drink more beer, hoping that the can you're holding is actually part of car #1 http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif Good thinking Marlin
Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

PeteLeathersac

11-14-2005, 10:56 PM

Thinking again, E is maybe the better answer afterall? ~ Pete

Supercar_Kid

11-14-2005, 11:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You mention these supercars as if they were people,but they are not.Unlike people,cars can exist as any sort of conglomeration of parts,and here are some scenarios.

[/ QUOTE ] I like the analogy because like people, each and every VIN# should be considered a one of a kind original, never to be duplicated and never to be reassigned. The idea of swapping #s also doesn't translate well to people, and it sort of highlights the obsurdity in how we look at the practice when it concerns valuable cars.

As a hypothetical, if I start calling myself Elvis Presley and start using his Social Security # does that mean I'm a "restored" Elvis Presley? Hardly...

Another good hypothetical would be if a soldier is killed in action and you took his dog tags off and put them around another member of his platoon's neck, does the dead soldier's mother now have her son back? Nope...the tags simply identify the soldier...switching them to any other soldier no matter how many ways he closely he resembles the original doesn't make him THE original, even if it's to his twin brother born only 1 minute later.

So lets get back to thinking of this in terms of Supercars, and remember why most folks didn't give a squat about #'s or tags on their cars back in the day.

The hidden VINs and body tags do not make the car, they simply identify the car to which they are attached, same as a Social Security # or a Military ID tag does for a person.

Saving the tags is not saving the car, it's merely giving the ruse that the car that was once identifed by those tags has been saved, when in fact it's another car posing as that original car.

If you remove a body tag and scrap what it was attached to...that car and the tag it represents is forever "dead' IMO.

Supergas990

11-14-2005, 11:21 PM

My head is kinda spinning because the possibilities are endless.

Regardless of the legality issues (re-tag, rebody, etc...), when does a car become something so different from what rolled off GM's line that someone draws a distinction?

In my mind, the classifications are as follows:

"Survivor" (unmolested, left as time treated them) - The best IMO. Patina adds so much class - i.e. the Sandlin Duece

"Restored" (repaint, repair, refurbish) - Most cars fit this category in varying degrees. Can be anything from a nice driver to a 1,000 point trailer queen. Very nice cars with sheet metal replacement, fresh paint, drivetrain rebuilt, etc... This can include replacement of missing original drivetrain components with correct parts.

"Rebuilt" - Car with significant body rebuilding (clipping, firewalling, retaging, etc...)

In order to have a "restored" car you need to have worked with core to come up with an end product.

Trying to keep a complex topic simple isn't an easy task. With the big bucks in many complex restos the resulting product of a "restored" car is a project from the heart rather than the mind (if that makes any sense).

Deep inside most of us know right from wrong. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

I'm taking cover now, so let the comments fly.

Blair

Supergas990

11-14-2005, 11:23 PM

Wish I would've read Supercar Kids post prior to my response. He's headed my direction.

Blair

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

11-15-2005, 12:02 AM

I like that nomenclature, original vs restored vs rebuilt.

PeteLeathersac

11-15-2005, 12:04 AM

Again it's all down to personal opinions just like any car deal for what something's worth....BUT the facts of the "redo" ARE on the table! . The right or wrong isn't hard for some but how many guys who transfer an identity in the process of the job want to point that out and prefer to call their car rebuilt, not restored? . This whole "restored TO original"....and things like "restoration motors" as a nice way to say restamp....it's "caveat empor" alright but deliberatly to take advantage of someone who's uninformed? . All personal opinions again of course. ~ Pete

Stefano

11-15-2005, 04:02 AM

So it is OK to take advantage of someone who is informed?

sYc

11-15-2005, 04:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
So it is OK to take advantage of someone who is informed?

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

Born30YrsLate

11-15-2005, 05:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Is "Freds" last name Bain? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I can tell you it ain't Eichhorst.......that's me http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

PeteLeathersac

11-15-2005, 06:50 PM

Ask our Governments....they do it every day! . What I was more referring to was....some of the terms are meant to target and mislead those in the market with the funds but not the knowledge or sense to obtain the services of someone who knows (or claims to know?)? . Obviously not a buncha' gearheads and number addicts such as the likes that spend time hanging out on sites like this??? ~ Pete

RichSchmidt

11-17-2005, 01:04 AM

I guess my scenerio should be that both car number on and car number 2 had the same amount of original sheet metal.If car number 2 used the original firewall with the hiden vin numbers and original subframe from the supercar,but the body was cut at the A pillars and the toeboards and replaced from that point back with a donor,is it any worse then a car that has had all the same parts replaced by new metal?The new metal car would have no original metal expect part of the firewall and maybe a scrap or two around the trunk weatherstripping,other then that,each panel would have to be replaced on at a time from the toeboars to the tailpanel,roofskin to floorpans.

Everybody talks about how bad a rebody is or how bad the new Camro bodies are,but how would you fix a car like one of these or would you even fix them?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-CHEV...1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-CHEVY-CAMARO-CONVERTIBLE-HARD-TO-FIND_W0QQitemZ4587816717QQcategoryZ6161QQrdZ1QQcmd ZViewItem)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-Chev...1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-Chevrolet-Camaro-X44-needs-restoration_W0QQitemZ4587954548QQcategoryZ6161QQrd Z1QQcmdZViewItem)

David W

11-25-2005, 06:57 PM

i have two yenko novas a 69 and a 70 they were both found in Maryland area junk yards they both have titles with both the vin and trim plates on them.now the bad part is one of the cars was on the bottom of the stack of five it is a complete loss and the other car was in the middle of another stack and it would also need a rebody or firewall job.in my case how would you handle this situation? for me just owning a peice of history like these is enough i dont have to have them restored or have the intention of doing anysort of rebody does that make me a fool or just to honest? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Canucklehead

11-25-2005, 07:34 PM

i would restore them whatever it took, but thats just my opinion.

Enoch

11-25-2005, 09:05 PM

I would do EVERYTHING I COULD to get the remains of these cars then I would decide what to do.

Salvatore

11-25-2005, 09:39 PM

Rich, Some of these cars are not worth saving. If people didn't get caught up paying close to 200,000 for COPO's and 60-70,000 for Z/28's these 307 2 barrell cars wouldn't even be mentioned. All you have to say is 1969 camaro and look out. Why would anybody want all the pain and money to restore a standard type car (camaro, nova, mustang)etc. when they are available for about a 1/4 of the price of the resto, already done? We are not talking about anything rare here. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif Junk them! Its called recycling and move on. Some of these cars that turn up on ebay are not even good parts cars. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

David W

11-26-2005, 05:57 AM

i already have the the cars or whats left of them they are in the barn covered up with tarps,my wife thought i was an idiot for bringing them home untill i told her exactly what they were and now she understands why they are in the barn covered up like children even though they look like they went through a war but no matter what i will not sell these cars nor will i consider it these cars are a peice of history that most people dream of owning or they pay outragus amounts of money to get and i have two of them,they arent worth 250k but they are special to me because i have two peices of history im just not to sure how i should handle the cars at this point.just leave them alone or spend big money to fix them?both cars will need roofs,quarters and probly some frame machine work to get them strait but then again they are warm and safe where they are and well cared for(now)and cherished for like they are restored
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

MikeA

11-26-2005, 07:08 AM

Please post a picture of the cars.

camarojoe

11-26-2005, 07:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Please post a picture of the cars.

[/ QUOTE ]
I second that... You're saying you have a Yenko Deuce AND a 69 427 Yenko Nova that were both found in a pile of cars in a junkyard? And they're in your posession now, covered up with tarps? Are these cars that are on the published VIN lists? What color are they? Did you get them from the same yard? Sorry for so many questions, but i've never heard of these cars existance...

67 GTO

11-26-2005, 12:41 PM

Seems like this thread loops. There are posts from page one here on page 19!

I bought a 68 442 from the original owner, numbers match, got the Protect-O-Plate and even found a broadcast sheet. Being a Canadian car it can be even documented through GM Vintage Vehicle Services. As much as it pained me, I parted it out. It came from Ontario, and the salt really did a number on it. It needed sheetmetal (except the firewall) and even the frame had nasty rot. Am I nuts? I'd like to think not. My older brother (he's an a--hole) suggested that we grab a nicely restored IDENTICAL local twin - it was even the correct green w/blk vinyl roof. I still had the motor/trans, how hard would it have been? BTW, I still have the tags, but I've stamped XXXXXX over the last digits.

David W

11-27-2005, 08:28 AM

Mike , Joe as you both well know its the cold time of season for us east coasters it would take an act of congress to get to them to take some pics right now as soon as i get some stuff moved out of the way ill post the pics for you to see
Joe these cars do exist and they are on the vin lists thats the only way i know what they are because there is nothing left to ID them by visuall at least,these cars were found by me while i was looking for a few parts for my fathers 54 caddy,we have always had novas in the family we currently have 6 total from restored to full race so when i saw them i was inclined to look and see if there was anything left i could ad to my collection i wrote down the vin's and started to check them out and see what they might have been in there heyday and i found out alot more than i ever dreamed of

anyways one car was found a mile off the road in the back of an old junkyard about 30min from VA and the other car came from just east of cumberland ive been trying to get these cars for over 3 years and the owners of the junk yards wouldnt sell them for the longest time and i finally got them to sell so i bought both of them about a year apart
im not sure of the color of the 69 car the trim tag was smashed pretty bad in the accident that sent it to the bone yard in the first place but the 70 was red i believe with black interior
i know its kind of hard to believe and trust me i would have to wonder if someone else had told me the story but i swear it to be true
David

camarojoe

11-27-2005, 07:52 PM

David W... I don't know what the weather is like in Maryland, but here in PA a digital camera will work just fine in the cold. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif It's actually supposed to be in the 50s today...How about working on getting some pics of these cars? I think there are more than 2 of us that are anxious to see them.

MikeA

11-27-2005, 10:02 PM

Yes, it is a beautiful day in NJ. How about just providing the VINs so we all know a little more about your cars. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

resto4u

11-29-2005, 04:01 AM

pull my finger.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif I have a yenko with 10 miles, totalled out when new and stored in a shed since. Not..... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

Rainer

12-01-2005, 07:56 AM

Great topic of debate. There will always be differing points on what constitutes a rebody, and what part of the car makes up the "core" if you will. Although there are a number of people here who have no tolerance for any type of "shell" replacement, its interesting to note that GM made it possible to do that very thing by making body shells available for purchase. Note the listing at the top of this page from the 1970 Chevrolet Parts & Accessories catalog. What's your take on a supercar that received a new body shell from GM in 1970, or a car that was repaired years later using an NOS body shell? Some seem to be OK with replacing as many parts as necessary individually, but not if those parts are replaced as a unit, which was possible with these body shells.

http://www.shapeconsulting.com/cars/bodyshell.jpg

njsteve

12-01-2005, 08:14 PM

OK now, be honest, how many of you have just run those part numbers to see if there are any of those bodies sitting around somewhere????

Mr70

12-01-2005, 08:25 PM

Those are Glass numbers showing there.
The actual Body #'s were printed later in a seperate manual.
This wasn't as common as we would believe,so very few Dealers even requested parts & pricing info for group 10.001 to begin with.

Belair62

12-01-2005, 08:31 PM

Very interesting...would the Manufacturer be able to get around the VIN tag switching laws ? I bet they could. Or would they have to re-VIN the new body ? hmmmm

LS6 RAT

12-03-2005, 07:46 PM

Wow! Just read all 20 pages of this thread, very interesting discussion of this topic. My tastes for these supercars fall on the side of all original in condition for ownership/collectibility.
I believe the value associated with these rare musclecars should certainly be relevant to the condition of the vehicle. An unmolested, orginal in factory condition as built should be worth the absolute most. There can be nothing like it to compare with. I think the word original is very much overused, and is not proper to describe any part of a car that has been refurbished, restored, rebuilt, repaired, etc. My opinion is that a car that has been tampered with in any way, no longer is the same car that was factory built. Replacing most of the sheetmetal or rebodying a vehicle has the same end result, it is no longer the car it started life as, period.
Probably, none of us (or very few) have a vehicle that can be considered original.

davepl

12-05-2005, 03:09 AM

While on the topic of rebodying, I thought I'd bring up this example:

http://memturbo.com/pontiac/images/wpe1.gif
http://memturbo.com/pontiac/images/wpe4.gif

This is a Canadian car, 1 of N (where N tends toward 0) Pontiac 2+2s with a 427/390 and M21.

The car is a total basket case; even the firewall is cracked. Being built in Canada, though, its fully documented by GM Canada.

I have a 427/390 M21 2+2 clone about to be built at Musclecar Restorations in Wisconsin. Its on my own Laurentian that was first car 20 years ago, and that my Dad bought new in '69.

Now, for my purposes, I'm doing it because the car is special to me and me only, and I'm not trying to impress anyone with it or pass it off as real. But if someone else was dumping 100K into a car, it would be very tempting to tag the trim tag, VIN, and other items from this total basket case as the basis of such a restoration.

I think -that- would be the kind of thing everyone agrees on as "bad": transferring only the identity of a basket case to a donor vehicle.

Where the line between that and rebuilding a basket case by transferring parts for B to A rather than from A to B is a discussion I'll leave open to you guys!