Unique Shelby Convertible for sale

[golfer]

I am selling an incredible car to make a new purchase. I never thoght I would sell this car, as many Shelby enthusiats will testify that it is the best, most desirable Shelby GT 500 in existence. Many people may make similar claims, but I will supply documentation and references, like a 3 time past president of the Shelby American Automobile Club, to justify this claim.

The car is one of 335 1969 Shelby GT-500 convertibles built in 1969. More importantly, this Shelby is rare and unique for several reasons. First, this car has been rated Thoroughbred by the Mustang Club of America and Premiere (scoring 444/450) by the Shelby American Auto, the highest level achievable in both cases. This is quite an accomplishment because it requires that no reproduction or after-market parts be used, otherwise points are deducted (even the tires are original 1969 tires). Second, Senior Shelby judges have indicated that this car is the highest scoring 1969 Shelby to date. Third, this car is a 4 speed convertible equipped with the Super Cobra Jet and “Drag-Pak” option. It represents one of only 13 drag-pak, 4 speed convertibles built and only eight are known to exist today. Forth, it is a 24,000 mile car. Finally, this color combination is the only “triple black” drag-pak, 4 speed Shelby GT-500 made in 1969. In short, the car is essentially one of one made!

For pictures, go to www.atlantamusclecars.com. (http://www.atlantamusclecars.com.)
This car cannot be duplicated, it is that rare and that correct. Whoever ownes this car can truthfully say they have the single most desirable 69-70 Shelbys in existence.

Price is $375,000. I know its a lot, but find another one.

[MikeA]

[ QUOTE ]
Price is $375,000. I know its a lot, but find another one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Finding $375,000 is also difficult. Nice looking Shelby.

[csx289]

Chip,
Isn't this a Black Jade car (green) and not a "black" black? I remember the car from a few years ago. Don't think I have ever seen a true black car.Off the top of my head, I don't think they ever made a real black one? Very nice, however.
Colin

[Rick H]

Although I can't afford the Shelby, heck I couldn't afford the air in the tires, I did cruise around the website and checked out some of the cars. Very nice selection I might add. But...

I found some things interesting like how can a "restored" 1967 Camaro RS that is totally unoriginal score 998 out of 1000 points? What type of class did it score in? Obviously it wasn't like the Bowtie class used at Carlisle. Maybe it lost the 2 points for the non-original rear spoiler. And this car is priced at $64,995???? WOW what is mine worth? I'd sell my 67 RS for that anyday.

Also, can someone explain to me how you can restore to concourse level but changed the color to non original color? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Maybe it's just me but some things I read kind of bothered me. No offense to the original poster.

Rick H.

[golfer]

Colin, you are correct it is Black Jade or Jade Black, I just don't remember how Ford labeled it and I am not in the same location as the car. When I called it triple black, that is just the moniker I have heard and seen used with descriptions of this car so thats why I used the term.

Regarding the comments someone made related to the 67 RS Camaro. It scored that high in a non-stock class, and it is a very well done car as you can tell by the list of shows it has won. As for the price, I would pay more for an original 67 RS car in this condition, but there is no way someone could build a car this nice for anywhere near the asking price. By the way, if you like 67 Camaros, there are two original 67 Z28s that are pretty nice on the site that remain in a private collection.

If anyone is interested in the Shelby contact Chip Wright through this site or at 770-365-1872

[Rick H]

[ QUOTE ]
As for the price, I would pay more for an original 67 RS car in this condition, but there is no way someone could build a car this nice for anywhere near the asking price.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? You would pay that much? Hmmmm..

Engine shot of just such a car. Still has the original T3 headlights behind the doors.

http://home.rochester.rr.com/drhoff/images/gold/gold16.jpg

First place Stock class Carlisle 2004.

http://home.rochester.rr.com/drhoff/camaro/winner02b.jpg

You have a lot of nice cars on your site and like you said couldn't build one for the price.

Sorry for stealing the thread.

Rick H.

[Belair62]

I like the F Bird !

[Denis]

[ QUOTE ]
...By the way, if you like 67 Camaros, there are two original 67 Z28s that are pretty nice on the site that remain in a private collection...

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean these two?

http://67z28.net/gallery/albums/67%20Z28%20Photo%20Gallery/Mcguire%20Ermine%20White/20022.jpg

I was wondering where those two Mcguire cars ended up!

[jeff-san]

I think I may have seen this Shelby at B-J about 3-4 years ago. It was in the special roped off section next to the auction stage. That has to be the nicest Shelby drop top I've seen...period. The lucky guy that gets this car will truly be one happy Mo-Fo.

[Les Quam]

IF that's the same black jade drag pack GT 500 Shelby convertible I have been following since it sold at Russo and Steele in August of 2001 with VIN number 9F03R482667 for 103K and later sold to a private party from a dealer down south for 150K a year later it doesn't have an original engine or any of the expensive original parts left on it from when it won the Thoroughbred award. The Shelby sold at Russo was also represented as a show car winning 445 out of 450 possible points and one of one.

Through several owners all the hard to find irreplaceable parts fell off and were sold. I know people who bought some of the parts off the car and know people who almost bought the car(including myself)until they had an expert look at the car and determined it is no longer a throughbred level car due to the missing parts.

Hopefully Chip's Shelby is not 9F03R482667 because every senior head MCA judge I have spoke to recently about 9F03R482667 does not consider it to be a throughbred any longer?

[Stuart Adams]

Great info Les. Hope to see you in Vegas some day. I have #76 now, you going to the show in Vegas early next year?

[Les Quam]

Stuart,

Are you referring to 5S076? If so you got one fantastic car. I missed owning it by a day because I am an idiot.

[Stuart Adams]

Yes.

[rich p]

WOW !!! Now thats real information, need to know information.What would make someone sell parts off a concours car! My mouth hit the floor on this information on a car of this caliber.Great car gone Bad !!
I have learn you still need to check even the Best of the Best car.
Sold a Boss 429 a few years back that was a concours car with NO fluids from a very well known restorer and when fluids were put in the car, it just poured out of the block.What a lesson learned !!

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[Les Quam]

I have been offered 20K for the NOS exhaust on my 70 Boss 9 as well as 6K for the shocks. We have calculated the parts alone on my 70 Boss 9 are worth over 225K right now as it is a Thoroughbred gold and MCA authenticity award winner the only Boss 9 in MCA history to have won both awards. In the Ford world original NOS parts are like gold similiar to the Bloomington Gold Corvette original cars the Ford MCA guys place great value and prestige on their Thoroughbred class so the parts sell for stupid money. (Rich I realize you know all of this already anyway but I did this post for some that possibly didn't know).

As a result most Thoroughbred cars have their parts sold as they go from owner to owner over the years. There is a dealer down south who specilaizes in buying Thoroughbreds and stripping the parts then reselling the cars as a Thoroughbred. I know of three Thoroughbreds this dealer has stripped and resold. So it is important IMHO to realize that a Thoroughbred award is a moment in time and while the restoration may endure and the car will ALWAYS be a MCA Gold concours car which is still quite an accomplishment the same car may not have the parts still on it that made it a Thorougbred any longer.

For example at the last MCA Grand National this past labor day in Ohio I entered my 65 Shelby GT 350 and it won a Thoroughbred Gold and was the second 65 GT 350 to do so in MCA history (Stuart's #76 being the first). It then was rejudged for a total of about four hours of review by four judges and won an authenticity award the first 65 GT 350 in MCA history to win the authenticity award along with a Thoroughbred. In order to win an Authenticity award I needed 5 original Goodyear Blue Dots. Blue Dots are next to impossible to find so I own some and borrowed some. I have to give the Blue Dots I borrowed back unless I can convince my friend to sell them to me. The point is many times the parts are impossible to find and friends loan parts to friends to get the Thoroughbred award then they leave the car and that car is no longer at the Thoroughbred level. It is also virtually impossible to drive a true Thoroughbred because the parts get worn out and then the car again is not a Thoroughbred level car any longer.

Another example we are preparing a 1969 Mustang CV with the 428 Cobra Jet engine and the shaker hood option with a 4 speed trans for next years MCA show circuit. It was already restored to an incredible high level and is an MCA concours Gold winner. But in order to get it to Thoroughbred authentic level we are borrowing a few original parts from my other 69 428 shaker hood 4 speed mustang CV which already won an MCA concours Gold and has a bunch of original and NOS parts so that one can win all the marbles.

My point is that it is going to take two MCA concours Gold mustangs to win possibly one Thoroughbred authentic award. That's how tough it is to find all the correct parts and is why parts get sold.

I recently asked the senior MCA judge for authenticity how many actual and true Thoroughbred cars exist today and he thinks less than 12. The MCA is in the process of compliling a Thoroughbred registry to help with this.

In fact only three cars exist today that have been awarded an MCA Thoroughbred and an Authenticity award. There have been four awards but one car a 66 mustang Cv has won twice. One Mustang restorer has two cars that would qualify but have not been judged.

So while the term Thoroughbred is tossed around quite frequently true Thoroughbreds are actually pretty rare. Thoroughbreds that have also won the auhtenticity award are simply scarce and can be counted on one hand.

We don't know if Chip's car is the one I have been following and even if it is the same car it is still a MCA Gold concours car and SAAC concours Gold car and with an amazingly rare color combo to boot it is certainly a car that should sell for a world record price.

But the car I mentioned is well known in the Ford world to have had the good parts sold off.

[Racefan]

This is exactly the type of info I was hoping people would come forward with in the thread of certified cars that has drug on and on........

Great info, deserves to be shared to protect others.

[rich p]

Hey Les I dont understand the obsession on winning with a car with borrowed parts from another concours car.
Is that like the guy looking over someone's shoulder on exam day and copying his answers and being so proud that he got a A on the test ?? Did he really get an A ?

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

WE are ALL just curators of these cars for the next owner ! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Les Quam]

Rich,
I think my thought process was that I hope to buy the Blue Dots I borrowed from my friend or find some more in the future.

I am making one 69 428 Shaker CV a Thoroughbred and one a driver. Which is a big factor in owning a Thoroughbred the limited amount (if any) of driving.

Most of these Thoroughbreds are restored and never started at all. The MCA allows you to push it from the trailer to it's assigned spot. I disagree strongly with this MCA rule. IMHO they all must be able to be driven.

But the MCAs thought process is that some of the parts are so expensive now that starting a car with a 20K exhaust system and blowing a hole in the muffler when the carb backfires means you may never find another NOS exhaust system. So they are stuck in this quandry right now in that some cars are restored using NOS parts that are also date code correct meaning they are the correct year AND some restorations even have all parts with the correct year and dates built before the car was built for absolute correctness as if it just came off the assembly line. So finding correct parts to meet this obsessive criteria means the parts sometimes are more valuable then the car as a whole. So MCA allows restorers to push their cars at shows and not damage the impossible to find parts. I am not sure how the other makes of cars handle OE type restos?

Does anyone know how the original equipment corvettes are handled and if Chevy and Pontiac guys obsess to this level as the Ford guys do?

And yeah it's like cheating on an exam how do you think I got through school? LOL

[rich p]

Now that was funny [ And yeah it's like cheating on an exam how do you think I got through school? LOL]

I found out a long time ago that restamp and blank pads go threw the judging process, as if nothing is wrong.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[MosportGreen66]

It happens a lot more than you think. In the Chevy world too. I have borrowed wheels and tires for shows when the original knock off wheels were not finished with restoration. I know of a highly document/ '66 COPO Corvette (bc of interior/exterior color cobination) that has a near NOS off road (under car) exhaust system from a 1967 427/390 Vette. The owner of the '67 wanted some money back from the restoration fees and sold the exhaust system. It still had the original pipes, and even an ink stamp that says "Off Assembly" on the original mufflers. With all hardware and main dressing items like the chrome tail pipes with the mold seem on the bottom, he paid $2500 (and that was 3 years ago). I know of guys that exchange RC15 radiator caps and "VEN-TED" original gas caps for show cars all day long. To me this is NO different than buying an NOS original dual snorkle air cleaner assembly off ebay for $6500 or spending $500 on an original Delco oil filter. So what if the parts were once on a show car or not... same difference... after all when owners are done showcasing the restoration shop's job on the car you would think the owner would want to make it more streetable again... (but thats another thread)...

[golfer]

Les,

I have been out of town and unable to respond until now.
I think there is both confusion and some mis-information about my car.

First, while the VIN number is the one Mr. Quam mentions, my car was never sold at Russo-Steele.
Second, my car has its original, matching numbers engine. The VIN is on the block, drivers side, just below the head on a rough cast surface.
Third, I also had heard rumors that parts had been removed, but that too is not true. I believe what happened is that Worldwide Musclecars owned my 69 Shelby and a record setting 66 Shelby. It is a fact that there were parts removed from the 66 Shelby before Worlwide picked it up. I would venture that the rumor of parts being removed is a mix up between these two cars. I would also have to wonder what parts one would remove from a 69 Shelby? My tires are still 69 tires, I would have to look again, but I believe all the belts and hoses are still the original Ford NOS stuff. At any rate, since the Russo-Steele comment and wrong engine comment were both incorrect, then I would suggest that this parts missing comment is also wrong.

However Les, I would appreciate you contacting me at the phone numbers below if my information is incorrect. Les, I would like some proof that parts were removed from my car. I would also like the names and phone numbers of the MCA senior judges who you indicated would no longer judge this a thoroughbred car. The reason I would like this information Les, is that I have enough money, time and lawyers to make life miserable for the people who sold me my 69 Shelby if you can provide me proof that my car was not as represented to me when I purchased it, i.e. that it doesn't have its original engine or that parts were scavenged off the car.

I appreciate your help with correcting any mis-information about my car,

Chip Wright
Call anytime and I will be glad to talk about this.
cell 770-365-1872
home 678-305-0756
office 770-956-1225

[Les Quam]

Chip,
A 1969 Shelby CV black jade with the VIN number 9F03R482667 sold at Russo and Steel on August 17, 2001 lot number 310 for 103,400 dollars. Mileage according to the auction listing was 21,474 in August of 2001. This transaction can be found on several different websites for your immediate review including RS as well as Sports car Market and others .

If you look up 9F03R482667 in the Shelby registry you might note that the mileage is referenced at 24,000 in 1988. You might also note that the block was replaced according to Shelby records posibly twice.

There are a number of different ways to determine if your car still has it's original parts. One of which is to retain an expert to examine the car for you another is to put the car on a lift and simply get the part numbers and date codes off the parts. Every part on that car will have a date code and part number including the fan belts where the date is embossed onto the belts. As will the exhaust etc.

I have no idea what world wide did or didn't do in regard to your car nor am I making any representation connected to world wide nor was I aware that they removed parts from a 66 as you claim?

Every old muscle car requires generous amounts of time in regard to performing due diligence and research prior to a purchase I have over 30 cars of my own and don't have the extra time to help you with your car. Sorry I have enough projects and parts to round up for next years MCA circuit and will struggle to meet my deadlines.

There are a couple of MCA National shows very close to you next year. I will be there as a judge like I was at the MCA grand national( yes they are scraping the bottom of the barrel when they need me) and I will be bringing cars for the show. I would enjoy meeting you and if you enter your car there will be several senior head judges doing the Thoroughbred class to examine your car for you. If it is still a Thoroughbred it will be awarded as such. The quality of workmenship on the car is outstanding and the car is ultra rare and will always bring a world record price when it sells.

Hope to see you and your fantastic car at an MCA show! I certainly mean't no disrespect toward your car and like I said think it will bring a world record for a 69 Shelby if you decide to sell it. A seller really can't hope for more than a world record I would think when they sell there car.

[TimG]

Benchmark demands that everything be done on the same weekend, Survivor one day and Gold judging the next day.
Judging sheets are good, but you best look and verify all the parts are there. Heck, a correct distributor cap is $300 now. I wouldn't want to get home and remove the distributor shielding only to see a service replacement cap.

[rich p]

(Mosp)How about what it really comes down to it !! When the car is for sale and has a Gold certificate saying so. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$ or without $$$$$$$$. Not saying this is you Les !!

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[golfer]

Les
Just three points. First, the car was at the Barrett Jackson auction, not Russo Steele. I go to both and there is quite a difference. Thus, when you indicated with such certainty that you had been tracking this car for some time and you were so certain about the Russo Steele auction, I just assumed you must have had the car confused with another Shelby.

Second, I did not say that Worldwide removed parts, but that they were removed from a world-beating 66 Shelby before Worldwide took possesion. Worldwide had possesion of both my 69 Shelby and that 66 Shelby at the same time. Thus it seemed reasonable to me that folks had confused which car had parts removed.

Third, I know both the restorer and the gentleman who had my car restored. As I recall, both indicated it was the original drivetrain. This does not mean the Shelby registry is wrong. When the man purchased my car he may have found the original block sitting in the same garage. That happens. I simply don't know, nor can I explain how the VIN got on my engine in the correct spot and on a rough surface unless it is the original engine. However, I will call both tomorrow and report what I am told. I will never knowingly misrepresent a car.

Thanks for your help and guidance. Also, let me ask again, if you have any proof about parts being removed from my car, please let me know. I take such accusations very seriously, because I paid a lot for this car based on certain representations, and I expect those to be true.

Thanks again, I look forward to meetting you and seeing some of your incredible cars.
Chip Wright

[Les Quam]

Chip,
The car sold in Monterray on the date I previously discussed and for the amount I discussed. BJ doesn't have an auction in Monterrey(how do you spell that anyway). As I said the transaction from August of 2001 is on several different sights that track auctions and can be viewed immediately. I don't know whether it went to BJ before or after August of 2001 or when it went to world wide. But I also remember the car being sold at Monterray that August as well as having the auction database as a resource.

In regard to the block consider getting the date code off the block and compare it with the cars build date. IMHO you should have the date codes and part numbers for the block,heads,intake,carb,dist.,water pump, plug wires,dist. cap, radiator,exhaust,wheels,on your database for a car of this caliber. Whomever you bought it from should also have this information as well as the person who restored it. IMHO people prepared to pay 375K for the car are going to require this information before they buy the car.

The blocks date code should precede within three months the cars build date. From my experience VIN numbers on the block are only the starting point. Most probative to me is when the block was cast, because cast dates are impossible to replicate. My first inquiry on whether a block is factory original to the car is the cast date, then I look to see if the numbers match. If both check out I am satisfied that either it is original to the car or that someone went to a lot of effort to find a date code correct block and restamp it. In either case I am happy.

The shelby registry is invaluable as a resource and the way I read the history of your car in the registry the block has been replaced under warranty. The 69 SAAC registrar has all the warranty receipts for your car and for a small fee he will copy them and send them to you. You should IMHO also have those copies for a car of this caliber. I think the registars name is Vinny Liska he is a nice guy.

Therefore if you check the casting dates on your car and read the registry and contact the registrar for your warranty information the issue of whether the block is original will be resolved. As will the parts issue.

It was never my intention to disparage you or the car I never implied that you knowingly misrepresented the car. The car could be taken to any show today and win a concours gold and possibly a Thoroughbred and sell for a world record price simply because of what it is and the great quality of the restoration.

All of this is simply the process an owner goes through when selling a high dollar muscle car. Except at BJ where drunken millionaires buy anything that sounds loud and looks shiny and has the word HEMI attached to it somewhere. LOL

[ANDY M]

No disrespect intended to Les, lord knows that my memory isn't what it used to be, (blame it on the medication http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif), but Chip is correct about the auction. This car crossed the block at BJ in 2001, lot #694. http://www.barrett-jackson.com/auctionresults/common/cardetail.asp?id=165843
It sold for $93,960.00. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif
I could find no record of this car on the Russo and Steele website. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
I would like to find a stock that can appreciate like this.
As for the link that Chip put into his original post in this thread, is this the same car? I'm confused because of the selling price listed on that link.
http://www.atlantamusclecars.com./1969%2...20500%20LMC.htm (http://www.atlantamusclecars.com./1969%20Shelby%20GT%20500%20black/1969%20Shelby%20GT%20500%20LMC.htm)
This seems to be an awful big jump in price, not that I could buy the car at any of the amounts listed.
I regret that I do have too much time on my hands. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[csx289]

Here it is in Monterey at the RM sale in August, 2001 - sold again at 103k, information found at www.sportscarmarket.com (http://www.sportscarmarket.com) in the auction results listings:


"1969 Shelby GT500 Drag Pack

Car Information
Year: 1969
Marque: Shelby
Model: GT500
Type: Drag Pack
Chassis #: 9Fo3R482667
Engine Cylinders: 8 CYL
HP: 335
Left Hand/Right Hand Drive: LHD
Body Type: Convertible
Exterior Color: dark green
Interior Color: black vinyl
Odometer Shows: 21474
Miles / Kilometers: Miles

Auction Information
Auction Location: Monterey, CA, California, usa
Auction Lot Number: 310
High Bid/Sold Price: $103,400
Sale Status: Sold
Sale Date: 8/17/2001 (View all cars from this auction)
Event Name:
Auction Company: RM Auctions
Auction Data By: Sports Car Market Magazine
Condition Rating: 1-
SCM # 23191
Condition Description: Shelby Drag Pack convertible equipped with a rare list of options including extra heavy duty suspension, tilt steering wheel, 8-track stereo, tinted glass and 4-speed manual transmission. Scored 445 out of 450 at 1999 Shelby Concours.
Market Opinion: The 1960-70 cars were at one time dismissed by Shelby enthusiasts as not being "real" Shelbys. The $100k sale price on this unit will make some 1966 GT 350 owners sit up and take notice. Lots of money, but lots of car. "

Colin

[Les Quam]

RM not RS oops! Sorry I got my R's mixed up.

[csx289]

Les asked me to read the Shelby Registry entry on this car to make sure he was reading it correctly. I have to agree, from the info in the 1997 Registry, #2667 had a new block under warranty at 891 miles on 9/2/69...and then another new block after the #4 rod bearing spun at 6068 miles on 11/20/69.

Just my $.02, from written documented info on record with Ford and SAAC

Colin

[Stefano]

Who has been able to see/identify a complete Shelby vin with the hood installed and engine in the car. Not a very easy task IMO?

[csx289]

Not at all easy! Plus, I have never seen a complete vin stamped in a CJ block. A few have had the vin on the cylinder head "tab", and one had the last 4 digits of the vin in the valley at the rear of the block, but, very faint.

I'd like to see a picture of #2667's vin on the block for my own education if possible.

Never say never, but judging by the Registry and speaking to past owners, I would have to say the odds of this car having the original motor are not good.

Like Les said, the car will still bring big $, but, I would be concerned about the NOS parts being gone as well. This car has been the subject of rumors for years about it getting stripped of all the "good stuff", making it a Gold car as it sits and not a "Thoroughbred". To get really big $, Chip should have an inspection done by an MCA or SAAC judge to confirm the parts are there, and the present state of the car. IMHO.

Colin

[Belair62]

Pretty crappy that people pass parts around just to win some kind of designation...sounds like a business someone should start...just rent parts to get a car to a certain level...

[Stuart Adams]

Yeah, then they sell the car to someone who thinks it still has Thoroughbread status and it does not. Stinks.
Thank goodness there are guys like Colin around that are honest and know these cars.

[golfer]

Les,
It is interesting to see that my car has struck up such interest. Les, I could not figure out why you kept insisting the car was sold at the Russo Steele Auction. Now I see you have corrected this and said it was an RM auction. I was wondering what I was missing, because at your suggestion Les, I spent an hour on the Russo Steele webb site looking for my car, which obviously was not there.

I spoke to the restorer of my car, who is a well known and respected Shelby restorer and a very fine gentleman. He indicated several things.

First, the engine is not original but a date correct replacement block. Also, at the owners request, he stamped the VIN in the correct place. And yes, it is difficult to find and read. You have to be a three armed Chineese contortionist with good eyesight or reading glasses but it can be done. I will try and take a picture, but I recall being told it was the original drivetrain and had no reason to doubt this when I found this VIN, which unlike Chevys, is somewhat difficult to do while making it look original.

The restorer also indicated that the ownership trail went from the man he restored it for (call him J) to Barrett Jackson, where it was sold to a man from Phoenix. Then Worldwide bought it and then I bought it. This is the ownership trail that I recall. He never mentioned the RM auction, nor have I ever heard that it was sold there. I will try and find out what really happened at the RM auction, maybe the original owner bought it back, I simply don't. I was unsuccessful today, but I will try again tomorrow to contact Worldwide and confirm the ownership trail.

With regard to parts being taken off the car, the restorer assured me that Owner J never removed any parts and sold the car at Barrett Jackson. Les, you said you knew people who had bought parts off this car. Please contact me with information that will allow me to confirm or refute this claim. This is very important, first because I want to sell a car that is as advertised, and second, because I will endeavor to purchase any parts that were sold. Les, is is not enough for you to suggest that I hire some expert to look at the car, due to the fact that you have made a public claim of specific knowledge of people and parts that have been removed. So please, contact me by phone, email, this forum, or PM with whatever specific knowledge you have.

Finally, the restorer also indicated his belief that this car is likely the most original and probably most desireable 69 GT 500 in existence. I agree.

Chip Wright 770-365-1872 or 770-856-1225

[Racefan]

Hmmm..... not sure that Les has much of a burden to make any effort to help document your car/parts. I really shouldn't stick my nose in and give my .02, but the discussion is very important and has actually potentially kept you from quite a bit of grief? I understand your desire for information, and maybe Les will give you specific info......but not when demanded. The "sugar" approach may be more appropriate at this point. And, maybe in private. I doubt anyone is going to give you specific contact info of people who own this caliber of parts. Sorry, I am not taking sides or trying to pick a fight. Just sticking my nose in where it probably doesn't belong.

I feel as though I have to stick up for Les on some level because if we don't, then no one will come forward with this type of info again when someone else is either buying or selling a car. As I posted earlier, it is important that we share this info with each other without fear of being crucified. Les has been correct in many of his claims to this point, and has potentially saved a lot of potential legal headaches for both buyer and seller. Again, sorry just my thoughts.

BTW, Chip you have been an upstanding person to this point given the circumstances. Honestly, good luck with your car and if it was indeed misrepresented to you upon your purchase I hope you get the person who did that to you. Very nice car, I do believe it will and should go for record prices.

[shor]

It looks as if Les has done enough already.

[golfer]

Hey Racefan,
As the owner of the car in quetion I have no problem with Les correcting my engine info, because I would never knowingly misrepresent a car. Also, even though it is a replacement block, date correct, one has to wonder how many SCJ engines have actually survied in their original cars - I know I would have blown mine up. Obviously, the guy who purchased my car and had the block replced with around 1000 miles did not understand the concept of "break in period."

With regard to the statements by Les that he has specific knowledge of friends buying parts and MCA judges knowing of parts missing, this is another matter. I feel like the preacher who comes home and reads on the front page of the newspaper "Les Has friends Indicating That Preacher Was Seen Drunk At the Appolo Lounge." How does the accussed preacher defend himdelf from that? The most direct and easiest way is to address the specific allegation by contacting the "friends" and see what they actually saw. I have asked Les to contact me by PM, phone, or whatever means and I will try contacting him in private. Furthermore, I will always seek and appreciate guidance about any car I own.

In closing, all I want to do is to ensure the car is as good as it can be, or as good as it was when it was shown and last judged. If that requires me spending money to find NOS parts I will do so, as long as I own the car. But first I need to find out if parts were removed, and Les has indicatd he has specific knowledge that can help me determine that. In the meantime, I would also really like to know what happened between Barrett Jackson and when I bought the car.

Chip Wright 770-365-1872 or 770-956-1225

[Racefan]

All I am saying is that it is difficult enough to find people that are willing to give this kind of info because they don't want to get in the middle of it. It would be fairly simple to find someone and give them whatever compensation is reasonable to put your car on a lift or whatever it takes to examine the "hard to find" parts of your Shelby and verify. Then, if some of the orignal parts are gone do some searching like the rest of us would have to do to find them. You sound like you are quite "in the know" about Mustangs and Shelbys, I would think you would have some connections that could review your car? There has to be a person like Ed C. for Fords who can look at and verify your car. See, I would have had that done before purchase especially with a high dollar car such as this. But, that is me. Again, I just felt as though I should put in my .02 since I commented and thanked Les for the information. We were just talking about whether or not someone would come forward with this type of info given the opportunity, and this was an example where someone did. That is pretty rare. Most people would have let you continue on with your sale and never let you know. You would not have found out until the lawsuit for misrepresenting the car (and I honestly can tell that you had no intentions of doing that-- you just didn't know). Which, it sounds like you may be able to do from the previous owner?

That is all I'm saying. If you want to view the thread I am talking about, go here http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/170302/an/0/page/1#170302

[Stuart Adams]

I think its great that Les has provided the info....

[Dave Rifkin]

Guys, this no longer seems like a "Cars For sale" thread. Can it be moved into a more appropriate location?

[Born30YrsLate]

[ QUOTE ]
I think its great that Les has provided the info....

[/ QUOTE ]

And that the discussion was done with tact and not as a screaming match, which shows good character from each side... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Les Quam]

Chip,

The reason this car has generated so much discussion is because it is a well known car and you represented in your post of 11/20/05 at 8:21 PM that it was "an original matching numbers engine". You then indicated in your next post on the same day but at 11:58 PM that it was possible that the original engine had been found after possibly sitting in someones garage and returned to the car.

The Shelby registry issued in 1988 has for years documented that your car did not have it's original engine and depending how you read it possibly had the block replaced a couple of times. The original block was ruined in circa 1969. For you or anyone to represent that your car has the original engine was simply ridiculous given it's written recorded history.

It is important to note that I was not merely guessing or speculating regarding the history of your car. I was using the Shelby registry and it's written recorded history as a framework for my post on this thread. One of the great things about Shelby's and why they are so vauable is because the registry helps to record the history of cars like yours so that RESTAMPED date code correct blocks don't get passed off as original down the road.

You also originally started this thread representing that the car was "triple black" which also was incorrect.

It seems to me that you may not have even looked at the Shelby registry before you bought this car and offered it for sale at 375,000 dollars on this forum. Because if you had read the history of your car in the registry you would have known what color it was and that the block was not original. You were offering for sale a RESTAMPED engine block without disclosing that fact before I raised the issue. I am not going to apologize for alerting members of this forum and other potential buyers that the car did not in fact have it's "original matching numbers engine" as you originally claimed but which was contradicted in the Shelby registry since 1988!

When I originally indicated that the car was sold at RS I was going from memory from 2001. The fact that it was sold at RS doesn't change the fact that it was sold at an auction AND that the mileage as found on the RM records is less than mentioned in the registry in 1988. Frankly I don't know what difference it makes which auction it was sold at in Monteray in 2001? As long as it was sold in Monteray in 2001?

Finally do not imply that you have made any attempts to contact me for more information because you have made none. If you want to know what parts are on YOUR car get out from behind your computer and walk out and look at YOUR car and write the part numbers down with the date codes and publish them on this forum to set the record straight. Do not blast me or DEMAND anything from me or attempt to put my friends in the middle of YOUR problems.

I assume you have parts on your car if they are original and date code correct the parts will speak for themselves all they need is for someone to walk out and record them.

If you don't know where to look hire your own expert to go over the car for you. You live in the Shelby and Mustang capital of the world in that perhaps more noted collectors and experts live within minutes of your cars location than other areas of the country.

Please note that I have repeatedly stated that IMHO your car would bring a world record price upon sale that it's restoration workmenship was outstanding and is at a minimum a MCA concours gold level car as it sits today perhaps higher. I fail to see how that can possibly be contstrued as a negative opinion regarding your car? The FACT that written recorded history indicates that your car does not have it's original block, is not triple black and was sold in Monteray on August 17, 2001 are not my opinion they are facts.

As other members of this forum including yourself have stated on this thread rumors regarding your car losing many of it's original and NOS parts over the years has followed this car for quite some time. It seems to me that you should spend less time blasting me and making demands of me and more time out with your car with a pad of paper and a flashlight writing down parts numbers and date codes if you think the issue casts a negative cloud over your cars value to put this issue to rest. For a small amount you can also retain an MCA or SAAC gold card judge to examine your car and support the results of YOUR research and finally put the rumors to rest.

And finally it takes more than a check book to put original and NOS parts on your car. It can take years of hunting and much help from your friends and their friends to find them and IF you ever find them then your going to need a fat checkbook IMHO.

This is the end for me on this thread.

[WWMCMike]

Just want to add some FACT to this conversation. The gentleman whao had this Shelby restored and sold it at BJ was the man Chip listed as "J". The car was sold to Mr. S. Kilian of Wisconsin. After purchasing the car in January in Scottsdale, he took the car home to use as a driver. Upon calling some of the people involved in the restoration of the car, he was made aware of the FACT that this Shelby was in the same condition as it was when it won the Premiere award and was by no means a car he should drive. Not wanting to own a trailer queen, he took the car to the RM sale in Monterey where I purchased it. The car then came to me and sat in my showroom for a few years. We took the car to a MCA Grand National event where it was judged in the Thoroughbred class, and won. We then brought the car back to our shop where it sat until Chip bought it. At no time did any parts come off of this Shelby. I have spoken with many Shelby (SAAC) Judges who know this car and have seen this car in the very condition in which it sits today. It is in THEIR opinion that this Shelby convertible is among the top 3 shelby convertibles in existence. One belonging to A. Freidel and the other belonging to Bob Gaines. It really bothers me that someone would get on here and try to degrade a car like this without having hard facts. This is a great car, and in my opinion, worth EVERY penny that Chip is asking. If I owned this car today, I can't say the his price would buy it. If ANYONE has any questions concerning this car, please feel free to contact Mike McCullough at 405-760-6732.
Thank you.

[Stuart Adams]

I would hire one of the top Shelby judges in the country to go over the car in my presence if I was ever to buy it.
Photograph and document everything. Just my opinion.

This is probably a good discussion for all collector cars in general, because the NOS parts are so valueable for all cars that harvesting them off the car and Repop replacements is big $. The average consumer would have no idea.
The people hunting down and paying for these NOS parts are passionate about NOS vs. Repop - that is what seperates or gives distance from one cars quality vs. another.

I could easily see a person looking at a car for sale on Friday, buying the car on Friday, having the car delivered the next Friday with different Repop parts that the average consumer would not know.

Like Les said, get a judge to check the parts, then it would be settled. He was in no way degrading the car, just stating written Registry facts.

[PeteLeathersac]

Nice thread....everyone's being very civil as these facts come out. . And Racefan's right, it is a similar to the thread where this situation was being discussed last week! . Regardless of the motor originality, it probably being worth the amount either way....when this car was "certified", although the engine replacement was a known and recorded fact by one group, was this and the restamp taken into account or was it thought to be the original engine by the certifying body? . Perhaps a "Restoration Motor" term is part of the paperwork all along? . Where along the line was the restamp not disclosed....I don't think Mike above mentions what he was aware of when he had the car? . And what's the mileage....is there a speedo issue here too??? ~ Pete

[WWMCMike]

[ QUOTE ]
There is a dealer down south who specilaizes in buying Thoroughbreds and stripping the parts then reselling the cars as a Thoroughbred. I know of three Thoroughbreds this dealer has stripped and resold.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems to be a very interesting statement. Care to elaborate on who this may be?

Mike

[Stuart Adams]

That should not be debated here, Les is out of this thread.

Bottom line: a car was posted here for sale, documented issues were brought up, buyer and seller should get it checked out, move on...

[WWMCMike]

Not trying to stir the pot, just have a simple question. Why is it OK for someone to come on here and give third party information regarding the authenticity of a car and or a cars history, but, not OK for someone to ask where the info came from? I do believe forums like this one can be good in some instances, to help reduce the chances of someone being burned by dishonest folks. But I don't believe it is right to blast someones car or have a "tear apart party" like so commonly occurs here. I realize some of you reading this may not agree with what I have to say, and I understand where you come from. I think this site does alot of good and I believe things like this situation cast a shadow over some of its members objectives.

And to respond to you Mr. Adams, I agree, it is up to the buyer and seller to be on the same page about the car first. But documented issues were not brought up here. Hear say was brought up as fact and it is incorrect and needs to be handled as such.

[golfer]

Les,

I have repeatedly stated that I appreciate your help and guidance on this matter. Moreover, the day after you indicated my car was not numbers matching, I researched this and found it to be true and I found, as I indicated, the VIN was stamped in the block. I stated these facts very clearly on this site.

However, Les you also stated

“I have been following [this car] since it sold at Russo and Steele in August of 2001 ….it doesn't have ….any of the expensive original parts left on it from when it won the Thoroughbred award……Through several owners all the hard to find irreplaceable parts fell off and were sold. I know people who bought some of the parts off the car….”

Now we have a conundrum. Mike from Worldwide has joined this fray and indicated in his reply above that the car has had no parts removed. He also has traced the ownership history. The car has had only 3 owners since it was sold at BJ and only two owners since the sale Les mentions in Monteray (Worldwide and me). Les, I know that neither I, nor Worldwide, nor Mr. Kilian (per Mike at Worldwide), nor the owner prior to Barrett Jackson (per my conversation with the restorer) have removed or sold any parts off this car. Nor have we seen any “irreplaceable parts fall off” as you stated.

Les, it seems your recollection or what you have been told by others is in direct conflict with statements from the cars owners. It will be easy to clear this up. The simple and inexpensive way to get to the truth would be for you to tell me the name and phone number of one or two of the people that you said you know and that have “bought some of the parts off the car.” I will gladly call them and report back the information, just as I did with regard to the motor.

As for me hiring an expert, why should I go to this expense when it would be very easy and inexpensive just to make a couple of phone calls? I may do this anyway, but the phone calls are much quicker.

Again, I am just trying to get to the truth and not disparage anyone or create ill will. Moreover, I know how rumors spread and things get twisted around. That is why I indicated that at the time Worldwide had my 1969 Shelby they also had a SAAC premiere level 1966 Shelby, and parts had been removed from the 1966 car. Maybe this is the source of the confusion, assuming everyone is telling the truth as they know it.

Chip Wright

Anyone feel free to contact me with additional information about this matter
cell 770-365-1872
Home 678-305-0756
Work 770-956-1225

[quick-bowtie]

WOW!! This sounds like something for Dr. Phil. I cant believe this, kinda makes me want to put all my cars in a pile and burn them! I thought this was suppose to be a fun hobby if a buyer cant do his own intelligent research before buying a car he has NO business buying it in the first place. I didn't see where (Golfer) was at all out of line or trying to B.S. anyone! Maybe he didnt do his research before he advertised but he has come back and corrected himself and seems like a stand up guy! I cant see someone coming on here and trying to pull the wool over someones eyes when this sight is full of knowledgeable guys. Im all for having a heads up and knowing the history on a car and knowing the facts but this has been blown out so far out of wack its CRAZY..As hard as it is to find "GOOD" cars these days. Id personally like to say sorry for all the b.s. GOLFER and even though you car isnt something that Id go for your next one might be.. So if you have anymore "GOOD" cars in the future forsale please post them and if you've been turned off by this sight your more than welcome to email me with what you come across.

Insted of ripping cars apart or making 3rd party remarks and pissing people off and turning others away from a great site.. I think if someone is REALLY INTERESTED in a car in the forsale ads, he should step up and put a post saying he is FOR REAL AND INTERESTED in the above car and ask for anyone with important information to PM them.. and not drag this out for everyone else to read when they have NO INTENTIONS of buying the car.. It just seems like a bunch of old ladies bickering and make its not fun to even look at the post. I always try to keep to myself but I do enjoy this site and respect all its member but the trashing has got to stop!

[golfer]

Hey Quik Bow tie,

I appreciate your remarks and agree it sounds like Dr Phil, or maybe Perry Mason. I certainly did not mean to start this firestorm, but I think it does illustrate one important point. Before we slam another persons car in public maybe we should PM them to see if they will correct any known errors. As I have demonstrated, I will certainly correct any of mine.

One other point, Les is obviously a knowledgeable and stand up guy. But I have a basic problem with the way this is turning out and how some members have responded. Let me give everyone an example.

Assume a guy named Bill puts headlines in the newspaper stating he has friends, who are anonymous, that claim you shot the neighbors dog. You provide three witnesses, all whose names are made public, who claim you did not shoot the neighbors dog that you were playing poker with them in another town at that time.

There are two ways to resolve this. You can hire a forensic expert for $1000.00 to run fingerprint and balistics tests and provide this evidence to the police in three weeks. In the alternative, Bill, can provide the names and phone numbers of his anonymous sources and in one or two days the issue will likely be resolved at no cost to anyone.

Some on this site claim Bill has no responsibility to provide any hard evidence or to produce his witnesses. But this is not only inadmissable "heresay" evidence, it is being found guilty first and then having to prove your innocence. I take the opposite view, I believe one is innocent until proven guilty. Thus I believe Bill has an obligation to produce evidence and witnesses to back his claim.

As I have demonstrated, I will correct anything I find to be incorrect in my statements about my car. But now prior owners of the car have taken my side and adamately stated that no parts were removed from my car. I would really like to find out the truth and put this to rest. I think there is an easier, cheaper, and more equitable way to try and find the truth then the suggestion that I hire an expert to look over my car. While I may do this, that will not be cheap and it will take a couple of weeks. On the other hand, calling Les' heretofore anonymous friends and finding out exactly what part was bought and how they know it came off my car will take a few minutes and cost essentially nothing. I will gladly make those calls and report what I find on this site.

Chip

[Stuart Adams]

Mike, Yes sir documented issues were brought up here. In the Registry in front of me right now it states in 1988 it had 24,000 miles!!! It also states on 8/1/69 at Paul Miller Ford in Lexington, KY there was engine repair done including BLOCK, PISTONS,VALVES,INTAKE and TOW with 891 miles on it. On 11/20/69 replaced plug wire, #4 rod spun, BLOCK and gaskets, 6068 miles. These are DOCUMENTED in the Registry in writing. These were all brought up here, the glaring one is how is the mileage is explained, huh.
I'm non-biased and level headed, but when called out I feel I must respond with honest facts that are in WRITING.

This car could have all the correct parts, I don't care and never said they did not, but the car was posted for sale here and these issues were discussed, from the Registry.

What did you think would happen when someone is going to spend 400K on a car? They will look in the Registry first.

[mister_copo]

A very interesting post indeed. We can all be thankful that registries hold such info on the rare ones, and that knowledgable people are found on sites like this.

I take no side on the thread before me, but would lend to say that shelling out a grand on a professional buyers review for what is evidently a very rare car, is a small price to pay for a car that will garner large dollars for many years to come. I also recognize the comments that Les stated in that this car is beautiful nonetheless, and agree with him that this car can and will without doubt, set a new benchmark for Shelby drop top pricing.

Perhaps a more extensive review should have been done before it was purchased by the current owners rather than a debate about spending the money after recent claims. If I was advertising a car at 375K or anywhere there abouts, i'd already have done that to ensure I am 100% correct in what is being marketed. Spending the dough on a qualified inspection goes without saying when purchasing a car north of 6. Hell with so many Shelby collectors in and around Atlanta, I would bet a couple judges would surface at a discounted rate just to get close to this or any Shelby for that matter.

Here's to this thread being kept civil...

[golfer]

Mr. Copo,
I appreciate your comments and as I have just stated, I will probably have the car inspected. Also, I did sufficient due diligence before purchasing the car and this new inspection will take a week or two. However, the question is not whether I did sufficient inspection before purchasing the car but raher the rumors floating around that parts have been sold off the car. I would point out that Les appears to be saying that the parts starting missing through several owners after the Monteray auction. There have only been 2 owners since that auction, Worldwide and me - and neither of us have sold parts off the car.

To confirm are deny these rumors right now, my simple question is why don't you think that Les has an obligation to provide me with at least one name an phone number (of several he claims he knows) of someone who has reportedly purchased a part off my car? Since the car's prior owners say this never happened, it would seem this would be a quick and easy way to get to the truth. It would also be the gentlemanly thing to do.

Heck, I would even take the names and phone numbers of some of the MCA senior judges that Les indicated claim to know that parts have been removed. I will call them to ask them when they did their inspection and what parts are missing. Then I will have a qualified person inspect the car with particular attention to these so called missing parts.

Mr. COPO, what am I missing here? What makes this request for a couple of names so wrong? Do you believe it is fair to make public claims diminishing the value of another persons car without being held responsible for providing reasonable proof that the claims are true? Let me emphasize I am not suggesting that Les has made knowingly false statements. Rather, I believe he has repeated rumors or statements from some of his friends about missing parts. I just want to speak to a couple of these people to see if they have facts to substantiate the claim.

Mr COPO, please tell if you think this requset is unreasonable? I have even made the request by PM.

Golfer

[gemleeus]

when did the post get so far out of whack? a firestorm? i must have missed it. chip has lots of good cars for sale, ya seen his website?

[Rick H]

Oh darn it, I'm out of popcorn! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rick H.

[golfer]

Hey guys,

Get some more popcorn. I don’t know why there are some differences in the miles shown on between the various auctions and possibly the Shelby registry. But here is a hint, it is easy to get numbers wrong or transpose them when you are typing in information. And even Shelby guys can make an error.

How do I know this? Let me explain. I have a 1966 Shelby 350 that was judged at the Shelby national meet in Michigan in 2004. My VIN is S2346. The VIN on my scoresheet was listed as S2356. Both I and the Senior Judge, who will verify this, corrected this error at the meet. This should have been an easy fix since my car was one of only two that scored premiere, the highest award level.

A few weeks later I get a nice award plaque with my name and the premiere award, but the VIN is still wrong. I contacted the Shelby folks again who assured me they would correct the error in their permanent records, but they had no additional plaques to give me a correct one. No big deal about the plaque.

A few weeks back I get the official publication of the national shelby club (SAAC), the Shelby American Magazine, edition 74. In this magazine there is a nice review of the Michigan meet and on page 27 is a listing of the award winners. There I am with one other premiere recipient, and the VIN number is still wrong! Makes me wonder if the mileage question concerning the Shelby register and the auction house might just be a similar mistake.

The bottom line, we all make mistakes and sometimes get our numbers confused, even us Shelby nuts.

Golfer

[Mr70]

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

[Stuart Adams]

Get the car inspected by an independent expert in Shelby's and this would be all cleared up, IMO. If I was buying or selling this car I would want to know for sure what I have. It doesn't cost that much compared to 375K. I hope you sell the car and the educated buyer is happy in the end.

[prototype]

Some facts that I know about this car are:

It was bought out of Kentucky by Dave from IN
Sold to J
Restored by K (one of the best in the business)
Sold by J at BJ
When the car was at BJ it was housed in the premier tent, not in the fields, acknowledging it as a fantastic car.
The time came for J to bring it out of the tent and into the line up. When the car was barely out of the tent and not even into the line up, still on the west side of the tent a gal driving her husbands led sled did not stop and drove into the rear end of the vehicle. We scrambled to fix the superficial damage, a felt marker was used to color the fragmented fibreglas on the tail light panel. There were no less than three of us behind the car all the way through the line up and onto the podium.
A lawsuit followed and J brought in an expert witness to testify that $25,000 damage had been done. The amount was awarded and J payed his lawyers $20,000 of it and kept $5,000. As usual the expert witness got nothing for his time but did go to court to testify. The repairs were all done and this might be where some of the confusion on this car started.

[gemleeus]

OMG,its been wrecked. i'll get some of that popcorn now!!

[PeteLeathersac]

Enjoyable thread....at least from the sidelines! . I've gotta say that Golfer is a class act to repond the way he has as this whole story has unfolded thus far!!! . I hope the facts and further inspection of the car helps someone know exactly what they are getting also confirms the amount as more than justified!!! . Best of luck Golfer and great job by everyone getting the information together while at the same time keeping their tounge in check....hope it continues here in this thread also any similar situations in the future! . This site rocks!!! ~ Pete

[Rick H]

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

Oh boy, I gotta get some more cold ones because I have a feeling this thing is not about to end real soon.

Rick H.

[12bolt]

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

Oh boy, I gotta get some more cold ones because I have a feeling this thing is not about to end real soon.

Rick H.

[/ QUOTE ] this thread makes great entertainment for those with No money or reputations at stake. and most observers are uninformed on Shelby/Ford Parts Value, this really sucks for "Golfer". INMHO This should have been addressed with a Private message to Golfer and discussed between the two concerned parties. having withstood one of these Tests by Fire I assure you it is not a pleasant position to find yourself in. and win or lose, folks will always tend to remember the scrutiny associated with you more than the actual facts uncovered in the end. oh yeah, HAPPY THANKSGIVING ONE AND ALL!!!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[Racefan]

FWIW, I agree that it has to be a terrible experience for golfer. However, he has taken it very well and has proven to be not only honest (I said before that I didn't think he meant to misinform) but also genuinely interested in getting to the bottom of the situation. He is not being overly defensive, and seems honestly motivated to find the truth. And THAT is what I will remember from this exchange.....not any questions about a car or etc. I believe him now in what he says, and I would tend to believe him in the future on a car that doesn't have that ugly blue oval on it. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

Now, I still stand by my thought on what Les' responsibility is. Not sure why he doesn't come up with names for golfer, but I am sure he has his reasons. All I know is that Les' comments that can be readily proven to be true by public info, has been. All in all, I feel as though both Les and golfer are stand up guys just trying to get truth in the open. Period. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[jfkheat]

In my opinion, instead of Les giving Golfer the names and numbers of the people that bought parts off this car, he should contact these people and give them Golfer's contact info. They may not want to get involved in this situation. If they do, then they can call Golfer with any info they might have.
James

[Stuart Adams]

Have the car inspected by an independent Shelby expert, period. It will protect the buyer and seller.

Probably a good lesson for all. If you are going to advertise a car for sale and boast about how great it is or not then have your ducks in a row to answer possible questions. IMO.
If the seller would have consulted the Registry before and disclosed those items , the Block, mileage, etc., that would have limited the discussions to the other parts possibly missing or not. That would have been solved by an INDEPENDENT Shelby expert analysis, which would solve that part of the equation.
People who are going to spend 375K for a car and here allegations, true or not, are not going to believe previous owners. Because the car can change quickly from owner to another. The new owner wants to know what the car is like TODAY.

[Les Quam]

It's my perception that my motivations and credibilty are being called into question regarding this thread so I feel compelled to expound on a few issues to the extent possible.

I have been a muscle car owner and enthusiast since 1974 when I purchased my first muscle car a Shelby GT 350 CV and drove it, lived in it when necessary and generally enjoyed every minute of owning it for over 10 years. Heck I even lost my virginity in it when I gave my girlfriend the best 10 seconds she ever had! LOL The point is I have been buying and selling muscle cars for over 30 years and love this hobby.

A few years ago I realized I could only contribute two things to this hobby I love so much. I can write a big check for a Thoroughbred or O.E. type car and be a respectful curator and preserve that car for the next curator. Secondly I can contribute the services of my law firm to people in the muscle car world who have been the victims of fraud upon the purchase of a muscle car. Subsequently I put out the word that my law office would represent such victims on a no cost basis if they couldn't afford to retain an attorney to recover their damages. For those that can afford an attorney but choose to retain my office because of my limited knowledge of muscle cars and my background as a prosecutor we commonly only require only to be paid for our actual costs and be paid in cheeseburgers and lunch for our time. It's our way of saying thank you to this wonderful hobby. We have never made even one penny on any of our muscle car cases, and WE NEVER WILL.

On or about May 2004 my office was retained to recover the purchase price of 75K for a client who had purchased a 1970 white six pack cuda VIN BS23V0B234695. The client who himself is one of the most knowledgeable muscle car guys in the world and is also one of the sponsors of this fantastic forum bought the cuda sight unseen based upon the representations of two dealers working together to represent the car as genuine. Upon receipt of the car our client immediately realized the fender tag was a reproduction, the cowl tag had been welded on from another car, and the engine was restamped. In other words the car was a complete rebody and a total fraud.

After my law office was retained we hired Galen Govier to inspect the car and write a report to verify our clients findings. Mr. Govier confirmed that the cuda was as we suspected a complete fraud.

During the litigation we learned who restored the car and the restorer indicated that he restamped the engine and welded a cowl tag from another car on to this cuda. The restorer indicated that it was not his intention to ever represent the cuda as original and that he put on notice both the dealer who bought the car and the dealer who ultimately acquired the reproduction fender tag and affixed it to the cuda that it was a clone.

Subsequently both dealers represented the cuda as genuine and worked in concert to sell it to our client.

We were able to recover all of our clients purchase price plus all his shipping costs and the selling dealer took the car back. However during our investigation in this litigation our office came upon information relating to other cars both dealers had sold. That information is confidential and I am both legally and ethically bound not to disclose the sources for that information and I will explain further in a moment.

After our client recovered his purchase price and paid us in butter burgers and boring stories of his vintage racing days we all hoped that would be the last we heard of that cuda.

Unfortunately one of the dealers elected to put that very same cuda back on his websight for an asking price of over 100K. My office was alerted to this by another client with a perceived grieveance against this dealer regarding another car sold by this dealer who retained us because he believes the cuda was sold by that dealer for 125K and that the the dealer did not fully disclose the rebody, restamp and identity change history of this cuda. We are currently in the process of investigating that POSSIBILITY. I stress this is just a possibilty. We have therefore acquired a great deal of background information regarding this matter and it relates to other cars besides the cuda and I cannot dicuss or disclose priviliged information even if I wanted too. I hope that everyone understands this and is patient with me regarding this.

We would appreciate any information anyone may have regarding this cuda and as you can see all information will be kept confidential.

I have sent Chip a PM and discussed his car with him and offered him my help at no cost to him (other than cheeseburgers)and offer to him now my most sincere apologies for any problems I have caused him in this thread. This thread has taken on a life of it's own now IMHO. One easy way to remove any cloud that may exist over this car and it's parts is for Chip to get his digital camera out and take some shots of the part numbers of the exhuast, plug wires, carb, date code on the block, air cleaner, etc. We can easily decode these it wouldn't take more than a few minutes and be of no cost.

I still maintain Chip's Shelby is one of the finest in the world and anyone should be proud to own it and that it is well worth his asking price. Lets not forget one thing as we discuss his car. It is unquestionably a 69 Shelby GT 500 4 speed drag pack car with one of the rarest color combos in history and is a historic and very significant car. It is still clearly a MCA concours gold car and may very well be still a thoroughbred. Everyone should consider the infromation my law office acquired during our litigation MAY NOT be true regarding the parts. People make mistakes and many times people have their own agenda's. We have not formed any concrete conclusions and neither should anyone else. We believe the information we have acquired to be reliable but we can't guarantee it.

Finally it has come to my attention that I should spread the word more effectively regarding my law offices's offer to help victims of muscle car fraud and will today began the process of having my law office become a sponsor of this fine web sight. So Charley as soon as your done stuffing yourself you have my private email please let me know how do become a sponsor here? It's our way of saying happy Thanksgiving.

In the meantime I can be reached at either of my law offices. Law firm of Quam and Venit 3240 West Irving Park Chicago Il. 773 463 7400. Or 1280 S. Decatur Las Vegas Nevada 702 877 2383. It is easier to reach me at the Chicago office since most of my staff in Vegas are out on maternity leave. You can also send me a PM on this forum.

ONE NOTE OF CAUTION WE OFFER THIS SERVICE FOR VICTIMS OF FRAUD. IF YOU BUY A MUSCLE CAR AND THE DOME LIGHT DOESN'T WORK OR THE WINDOWS WON'T ROLL UP OR TEN THINGS BROKE WHEN THE CAR WAS BEING DELIVERED TO YOU. GET OVER IT, THEY ARE OLD CARS SOMETHING BREAKS ON THEM DAILY. LOL

[SSJunkie68-69]

I have been following this thread since the start as many of you have. I see and understands both sides of the issues at hand. I would like to thank both Chip and Les for conducting themselves in the utmost professional manners.

Les, your post above goes along way to explain things. I am glad there are people like you as well as dealers like Chip and Mike who are willing to step up and help get the record set straight. That is a very generous thing you have been doing for those in the hobby. Thank you.

Now I can get back to deep frying that turkey and celebrating my dear Mother's 73rd birthday but before I go back does anyone see any correlation here in some of Les's recent post.........

[ QUOTE ]
Heck I even lost my virginity in it when I gave my girlfriend the best 10 seconds she ever had!

It is easier to reach me at the Chicago office since most of my staff in Vegas are out on maternity leave.

[/ QUOTE ]


http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

Just Kidding, it was too good to pass on....Happy Turkey Day to All!

[Tenney]

That was cool. Our mutual friend PMUM always spoke highly of you, Les. Can see why. Ultimately, would suspect Chip's glad you chimed up. Time to go show the feast who's boss.

[mister_copo]

[ QUOTE ]
IF that's the same black jade drag pack GT 500 Shelby convertible......it doesn't have an original engine or any of the expensive original parts left on it from when it won the Thoroughbred award.

Through several owners all the hard to find irreplaceable parts fell off and were sold. I know people who bought some of the parts off the car and know people who almost bought the car(including myself)until they had an expert look at the car and determined it is no longer a throughbred level car due to the missing parts.

Les, I'm stuck here, first you stated the above....are you now recanting those comments with whats being offered below?

It is still clearly a MCA concours gold car and may very well be still a thoroughbred. Everyone should consider the infromation my law office acquired during our litigation MAY NOT be true regarding the parts. People make mistakes and many times people have their own agenda's. We have not formed any concrete conclusions and neither should anyone else. We believe the information we have acquired to be reliable but we can't guarantee it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not seeing much correlation between the Cuda story and the fact you reportedly know people who supposedly bought expensive parts off the car in question.

Are you trying to say that you are incorrect? Is this an apology of sorts? Did I missed something here? I am confused and it ain't the stuffing.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[rich p]

Thats what you got out of that ? Did they stuff you with stuffing or the other way around up there in Canada ??? LOL

Les your Alright in my BOOK ! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[golfer]

Les and everyone,

I think its time to call a cooling off period and let me try to gather a few more facts with regard to parts supposedly being sold off my car. While I have reason to believe this is an inacurate rumor, I want to do some more investigation. Moreover, I have responded to a very nice PM from Les and I look forward to working with Les to find out if any parts were sold off my car and if so, which parts. I do appreciate his PM and his especially his offer in this PM to help me get to the truth regarding this issue. To put it bluntly, while we can all have different opinions about an issue, we cannot have differing sets of facts about the same issue. So the fact is that either parts were not sold off the car, or parts were sold off the car. I want to find the answer so that when and if I sell the car it will be sold with a completely accurate representation.

As I said, if parts were sold, I will try and find any missing NOS parts and restore the car to its rightful glory. However, it is my hope and belief ( because I trust what former owners and the restorer of this car have told me) that the claim of parts being removed from my car are unsubstantiated and incorrect rumors. If they are inaccurate rumors, then those rumors need to stop now, and it needs to be stated publicly on this webb site and maybe others.

Thanks for everyone's guidance and patience in this matter, I know it has read like a bad soap opera.
Chip

in we will

[golfer]

I probably should have done a better proof read and spell check of my post, but I think it reads clearly enough. And I have no idea what those words below my name are suppose to say.
Chip

[Belair62]

Hopefully nothing is missing....that would be a great outcome...sounds like a cool car. As for the Cuda...well that really blows...

[Les Quam]

We all hope nothing is missing. And I can understand the confusion regarding my posts. I would suggest that if you cut and paste two distinct posts from different days that will only serve to cause more confusion. Much of the confusion is due to the limited amount of information I am able to disclose due to it's priviliged nature. It will not make complete sense because some of the information not being made public is priviliged.

Let's exercise some common sense here. I think Chip's car was restored prior to 1999 and won a SAAC premier in 99. That is six years ago and a long time for parts to come and go. It's possible parts were sold? It's possible that replacement NOS parts were put back on. I believe my information to be accurate and reliable but since none of it was collected while people were under oath I leave open the possiblity in fairness to all that people had their own agenda's when making representations.

I am certain however from private emails with Chip that Chip's ONLY agenda is to find the truth. There is no doubt in my mind that Chip honestly believed when he offered this car for sale on this forum that it had the factory original engine and has nothing but honest and sincere intentions for the finding out whether it still is a thoroughbred level car. I hope and want to believe it is. And if it is not I will do everything I can to help Chip make it one again.

We should all consider one important thing with regard to this thread. At some point someone restamped the engine on Chip's car knowing it was not the factory original engine. Whomever restamped it chose not to include in the restamp a designation such as SR for service replacement block. Or any other way for owners down the line to see that it was a restamp. IMHO an acceptable way to restamp a block is to include a designation that it is NOT the original block. Any thing less in my book creates the kind of problems we are having here. No matter how good an expert is they can be fooled by a good restamp especially if the block is date code correct. Let's not condemn or judge harshly any of the prior owners of this car and assume they took the time to research the SAAC registry and assume they knew it was a restamp but represented it as original. They same goes for the parts on the car.

Finally even IF it is proven that parts are missing only about 12 anal retentive obsessive Ford people in the world really care whether the plug wires and other crap are date code correct. Maybe another 20 people expect a drag pack engine car to have the original engine after 35 years. The overwhelming majority of the rest of the prospective buyers only want to be certain it is a real Shelby and a real drag pack with the real colors. As the owner of a collection of over 30 cars I don't think it makes any real difference in value to 99.9 % percent of buyers whether or not the carb is date code correct or the air cleaner is correct for the car.

This car is the real deal and is one of the three best 69 CVs in the world even if the car may or may not have a correct radiator cap? LOL

[12bolt]

Les, I agree with your sentiments on what Most FORD people think and on what you believe. But after having Owned a COPO Camaro and learned about the Chevy situation on Authenticating their Cars, WOW! FORD People have always been able to Authenticate their cars basicly by their own serial Number. GM played a Dirty trick on these Chevy folks and are continuing to do so. That is why they have to Have everything correct or as correct as possible. But with a 30 Car collection, I am 99% certain you are already aware of this dilemma. and for what it is worth, I believe your intentions for discussing this Car were not malicious in the first place but looking out for others best interests who may be considering a purchase.

[Stuart Adams]

Great job Les. You calling me anal, LOL.

[Les Quam]

Calling US anal Stuart and the other 10 of us. LOL

Tenney,
How did you know PMUM? I sure miss him. One of the best guys I ever knew.

[Tenney]

We'd horse around w/shifter karts from time to time, Les. Shared a bike racing background and a general liking of stuff w/wheels. See your take. Paul's as good a friend as I've come across.

[coke69Z11]

Well this thread has been one of the most informative and intense in quite a while, and I, like all concerned hope it works out for the best. I suspose you have all seen the Zcar that sold on ebay for $83+. The discussion on camaros.net had a similar discussion on that car and some of the same points mentioned here might pertain to that car also. Whether we can afford a high dollar car or not, I think we all want the high dollar cars to be deserving of the prices they are getting.

[vfitom]

Golfer wants to know about the authentic parts allegedly being sold from his car. Since Les opened his mouth about original parts being sold, Les should AT LEAST have the alleged parts buyers contact Golfer, ASAP! What part did Les buy from this car that was original? Was that disclosed? Les is hiding behind the confidential issue now. Golfer has the right to know right NOW. Put the shoe on the other foot and how would Les feel.......Very simple solution here. follow through Les.

[GTO_DON]

[ QUOTE ]
Golfer wants to know about the authentic parts allegedly being sold from his car. Since Les opened his mouth about original parts being sold, Les should AT LEAST have the alleged parts buyers contact Golfer, ASAP! What part did Les buy from this car that was original? Was that disclosed? Les is hiding behind the confidential issue now. Golfer has the right to know right NOW. Put the shoe on the other foot and how would Les feel.......Very simple solution here. follow through Les.

[/ QUOTE ]THATS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

[rich p]

Wow That sounds pretty harsh from somebody who cant even fill out a Profile of himself.NO SOUP FOR YOU !! With a demand like that !!

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

Yeh wait by the phone. Calling right away with that info you wanted !!

[olredalert]

------3 posts = 0 credibility!!! JMHO........Bill S

[SSJunkie68-69]

[ QUOTE ]
I know its a lot, but find another one.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4592038797&fromMakeTra ck=true

Any thoughts or comments on this one. Not trying to hijack the thread but just trying to get a better understanding of what makes these cars so special and therefore so high $ value. Aside from auto vs. manual and the colors what else do you all see?

[olredalert]

-------Just for starters; "Super Cobra Jet" and "Drag-Pak". Both of which I believe are extremely rare.
-------Also, just my opinion, but I think the automatic looses just a bit by the lack of air-conditioning. The SCJ/DP 4spd. does not suffer in that regard. They appear to both be excellent Shelbys and are both worth a ton!!!..........Bill S

[prototype]

The drag pack option in a 69-70 Mustang (Shelby Mustang in this case) could only have a 3:91 or 4:30 gear ratio and automatically triggered the SCJ motor which included key items:
external engine oil cooler
externally balanced crankshaft
lemans rods
gear reducer on transmission (similar to 4:10 LS6)

The drag pack option could not have A/C from the factory(few dealer installed units have shown up, they are easy to distinguish by the pushed out clock in the interior).

2667 is also unique in that it is a "big suspension" car which was only available on later cars.