Who repro's the 70 GM Conforming door jam decal? [Archive]

njsteve

12-06-2005, 04:55 AM

There is a Pontiac guy, Don who does them to order. He has the best one by far. I just had one made for my 72 TA. Check out this link: http://216.178.81.108/forums/showthread....r%23post2292472 (http://216.178.81.108/forums/showthread.php?t=441272&page=1&pp=20&highlight=con formance+sticker%23post2292472)

Don used to sell them on ebay but they wouldn't let him sell them with the VINs on them. Totally ridiculous move by ebay since they allow everybody else to sell trim tags all day long, but a legitimate restoration product...no way!

His email is [email protected]

hep1966

12-06-2005, 05:00 AM

In a way, isn't this similar to fake cowl tags? Lengthy discussion to follow.

Lynn

12-06-2005, 05:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I have seen them on ebay in the past. They actually started using these around August of 69. They changed the door design on the 69 Camaros to accept the sticker.

[/ QUOTE ]

First week of August somewhere between 671122 and 671208. My 08A Z/28 is 671122 and did NOT get the decal. John Berry's old 08A Z/28 is 671208 and DID get the decal.

Lynn

njsteve

12-06-2005, 03:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In a way, isn't this similar to fake cowl tags? Lengthy discussion to follow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely not. This is a decal with the VIN on it that was used to indicate conformance with emission and safety laws. It has no trim information and cannot be used to register a car with. Mopars have them since 1970 and they are reproduced as well. No real discussion needed.

hep1966

12-06-2005, 04:26 PM

How is this tag different from a factory hidden VIN stamping or another factory tag with VIN or trim information? This tag has a VIN and is original to the car. If it is missing, replaced, or tampered with, then the car is probably a rebody. Anyone replacing this tag may be in violation of federal law for tampering with a VIN. Per previous discussions on this board, if you tamper with a VIN, then the car is bogus. This sticker obviously has a VIN.

Seems that people choose what is best dependent upon their specific situation and then ridicule others for offering tags for sale or changing tags. I am not speaking of a riveted VIN tag.

MosportGreen66

12-06-2005, 04:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
How is this tag different from a factory hidden VIN stamping or another factory tag with VIN or trim information? This tag has a VIN and is original to the car. If it is missing, replaced, or tampered with, then the car is probably a rebody. Anyone replacing this tag may be in violation of federal law for tampering with a VIN. Per previous discussions on this board, if you tamper with a VIN, then the car is bogus. This sticker obviously has a VIN.

Seems that people choose what is best dependent upon their specific situation and then ridicule others for offering tags for sale or changing tags. I am not speaking of a riveted VIN tag.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its not a tag its a sticker. Even if you change this sticker to say your car has a V8 instead of a 6 cyl, there are plenty of areas where you would be able to spot the difference. NOTHING but the VIN can be taken or changed from this sticker.

Is anyone else lost?

hep1966

12-06-2005, 04:56 PM

Not lost.

A hidden VIN can't be used to register a car either. So why not rebody a car, change all the tags and stickers, and redo the hidden VINs?

I'm trying to understand where you draw the line. It would seem that a sticker with the VIN should be left alone and not replaced IF you are going to say that a trim tag should be left alone and not replaced. Trim tags are also legally made, sold, and changed but seem to carry a dark cloud wherever they go. Why is this sticker different?

olredalert

12-06-2005, 05:42 PM

So Hep,

--------What happens when your beautiful original or restored car gets its driver door smashed in an accident. The door is past straightening. Maybe there is even damage in the sheetmetal right under the sticker. Are you telling us that you arent going to put the sticker back on a new door?
---------I had this happen to me with one of my tow vehicles years ago. I sold the truck with nothing on the door and the purchaser (very anal-retentive type) actually called the police rather than asking me why the sticker wasnt there. Police called me and ended up actually calling the body shop that installed the door to verify that the door had been replaced. He could have just asked...........Bill S

SS427

12-06-2005, 05:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This tag has a VIN and is original to the car. If it is missing, replaced, or tampered with, then the car is probably a rebody.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say he would have a rebody. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

olredalert

12-06-2005, 06:03 PM

------Respectfully,,,,,,How can anyone determine if a car is rebodied if the sticker in the door is tampered with. Its glued to the door not the body. The initial poster on this thread never mentioned why he needed the sticker. He could just as easily need it for many reasons other than the dreaded re-body. Those things get painted over by less than careful painters every day, or taken off to paint the jambs, and on and on.........Bill S

SS427

12-06-2005, 06:12 PM

Also repectfully............virtually every body off restoration I do needs a new decal due to age, door replacement, old paint overspray, etc. I certainly hope I am not being accused of rebodying any cars.
Rick

camarojoe

12-06-2005, 06:16 PM

The repro stickers are nothing more than a detail item, same as TN stickers for your shocks or <u>BE</u> stickers for your brake drums. You arent swapping any numbers on a car by putting a new sticker on, just repeating the REAL VIN numbers that are already on the actual VIN tag in the dash. I'm as anti-rebody as anyone, but I sure don't consider adding one of these stickers with the same number as your dashboard VIN to be in any way "rebodying" a car. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif I doubt anyone else does either.

hep1966

12-06-2005, 06:18 PM

I think everyone is pretty much in agreement here.

The purpose of my comments is to show that there are many reasons to replace various parts on a car. Parts are engines, trans, sheet metal, carpets, cowl tags, stickers, etc.

Where some people will disagree is when it comes to specific parts (cowl tags and door stickers). In my opinion replacing a cowl tag or door sticker is OK. But don't try to convince me that it's OK to replace a door sticker and it's not OK to replace a cowl tag.

camarojoe

12-06-2005, 06:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion replacing a cowl tag or door sticker is OK. But don't try to convince me that it's OK to replace a door sticker and it's not OK to replace a cowl tag.

[/ QUOTE ]

BIG difference here. a cowl tag tells you lots of stuff about a car, and changing it also changes the true history of the car...options, built date, colors, trim levels, etc.... replacing a door jamb sticker with the same VIN number that was on the original one is not even CLOSE to swapping a trim tag from one car to another, or creating a fake one.

Stuart Adams

12-06-2005, 06:26 PM

I agree. Cowl Tag is ALOT different than a sticker...

hep1966

12-06-2005, 06:30 PM

That doesn't make sense.

A VIN is much more specific to a car than a cowl tag.

Why not exactly reproduce a dash VIN from a "missing" COPO and put it on another body and fake the hidden stamps?

As stated earlier "Seems that people choose what is best dependent upon their specific situation and then ridicule others for offering tags for sale or changing tags."

You can't say one is OK and the other is not OK. How about we reproduce an engine stamp on a date correct block. By putting a fake door tag on another door you have done the same thing.

Mr70

12-06-2005, 06:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Also repectfully............virtually every body off restoration I do needs a new decal due to age, door replacement, old paint overspray, etc. I certainly hope I am not being accused of rebodying any cars.
Rick

[/ QUOTE ]
The clues are adding up.......

Belair62

12-06-2005, 06:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why not exactly reproduce a dash VIN from a "missing" COPO and put it on another body and fake the hidden stamps?

As stated earlier "Seems that people choose what is best dependent upon their specific situation and then ridicule others for offering tags for sale or changing tags."

[/ QUOTE ]

VINs and rivets are a bit different than a compliance sticker...but if you don't have a problem with swapping VINS thats cool...

njsteve

12-06-2005, 07:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
That doesn't make sense.

A VIN is much more specific to a car than a cowl tag.

Why not exactly reproduce a dash VIN from a "missing" COPO and put it on another body and fake the hidden stamps?

As stated earlier "Seems that people choose what is best dependent upon their specific situation and then ridicule others for offering tags for sale or changing tags."

You can't say one is OK and the other is not OK. How about we reproduce an engine stamp on a date correct block. By putting a fake door tag on another door you have done the same thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's obvious you are just arguing for the sake of argument. It's great practice for lawyers, but as we all know, the louder you argue, doesn't make you more right in your argument.

You are incorrecly comparing an actual metal VIN tag with a decal that has the vehicle identification number typed upon it. You can't alter or remove the metal VIN tag; but you can replace a damaged paper decal. I give you this example. If you wrote your car's VIN number on a piece of paper and then tore that piece of paper up have you committed no crime. If you take your metal VIN tag off of your car and cut it up, you now have a big problem.

The conformance sticker is a paper decal with an adhesive backing that notifies all that the car was built at a certain point in time to conform to certain laws applicable at the time. The decal serves NOTICE that the car was in fact, built in conformance with those laws. It is a notification decal not a registration tag or an identification tag. It is not a metal identification tag affixed to the body.

The metal VIN tag permanently affixed to the dash is an integral part of the vehicle that has specific statutory protection under Federal and State laws.

The metal cowl trim plate is essentially protected under common law fraud statutes: if you put another trim tag on your car and then give the buyer the impression that the car always had that particular trim/option combination, you have committed fraud.

The reproduction of the conformance decal for your own car, is legal.

End of lesson. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

SS427

12-06-2005, 07:12 PM

I also would have no trouble with replacing a cowl tag with a reprouction IF the tag was an exact reproduction and IF the original tag were retained. This sometimes has to be done due to damage to the original.
Rick

SS427

12-06-2005, 07:16 PM

I deleted your posts...take it offline....

hep1966

12-06-2005, 07:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's obvious you are just arguing for the sake of argument. It's great practice for lawyers, but as we all know, the louder you argue, doesn't make you more right in your argument.

The metal cowl trim plate is essentially protected under common law fraud statutes: if you put another trim tag on your car and then give the buyer the impression that the car always had that particular trim/option combination, you have committed fraud.

The reproduction of the conformance decal for your own car, is legal.

End of lesson.

[/ QUOTE ]

No argument here, hopefully just a friendly discussion.

Someone is missing or has a badly damaged cowl tag on a 1966 SS 396. They buy a real or reproduction cowl tag and put it on the car. They sell the car. Buyer finds out that the car is not factory correct. Who can be sued? The previous owner? The person who sold the real or reproduction cowl tag? The person who put the cowl tag on the car? If I remember correctly, according to your previous posts, all parties could be sued.

So someone gets a reproduction conforming sticker and puts it on their car. They sell the car and the buyer finds out that the sticker is bogus. Who gets sued? The previous owner, the maker of the sticker, or the guy who put it on the car?

olredalert

12-06-2005, 07:41 PM

--------Im also thinking of this car you might buy; you go to look at a car that you have known to be delivered a certain way. You decide to buy it and then notice the trim-tag is MIA for whatever reason. Do you walk away from a COPO or an LS6 etc. because its missing that tag??? Personally I wouldnt! I probably would try to get some sort of corroborating notarized stuff to back up what the car was and then get a tag popped. As well, I would be up front upon sale of that car about the tag situation and let the chips fall. But thats just me.........Bill S

njsteve

12-06-2005, 07:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's obvious you are just arguing for the sake of argument. It's great practice for lawyers, but as we all know, the louder you argue, doesn't make you more right in your argument.

The metal cowl trim plate is essentially protected under common law fraud statutes: if you put another trim tag on your car and then give the buyer the impression that the car always had that particular trim/option combination, you have committed fraud.

The reproduction of the conformance decal for your own car, is legal.

End of lesson.

[/ QUOTE ]

No argument here, hopefully just a friendly discussion.

Someone is missing or has a badly damaged cowl tag on a 1966 SS 396. They buy a real or reproduction cowl tag and put it on the car. They sell the car. Buyer finds out that the car is not factory correct. Who can be sued? The previous owner? The person who sold the real or reproduction cowl tag? The person who put the cowl tag on the car? If I remember correctly, according to your previous posts, all parties could be sued.

So someone gets a reproduction conforming sticker and puts it on their car. They sell the car and the buyer finds out that the sticker is bogus. Who gets sued? The previous owner, the maker of the sticker, or the guy who put it on the car?

[/ QUOTE ]

On the cowl tag: anyone with knowledge of the false information that was put on that tag could be held liable if someone else (a buyer) relied upon that false information.

If you got a repro of the exact original damaged cowl tag and put it on, no one is liable because no damage has occurred.

If you put on a repro of your original conformance decal, no one is liable because no damage has occurred.

If you swapped the metal VIN tag onto another body and had a conformance decal made up to match that newly installed VIN tag (or even carefully moved the original decal to a new body), the making and placing of the decal on the car, in and of itself is not a crime, but it will be used as further evidence of the criminal act of VIN tampering.

Stuart Adams

12-06-2005, 07:47 PM

Is it beer time yet, its got to be 5:00 PM somewhere.

hep1966

12-06-2005, 07:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
On the cowl tag: anyone with knowledge of the false information that was put on that tag could be held liable if someone else (a buyer) relied upon that false information.

If you got a repro of the exact original damaged cowl tag and put it on, no one is liable because no damage has occurred.

If you put on a repro of your original conformance decal, no one is liable because no damage has occurred.

If you swapped the metal VIN tag onto another body and had a conformance decal made up to match that newly installed VIN tag (or even carefully moved the original decal to a new body), the making and placing of the decal on the car, in and of itself is not a crime, but it will be used as further evidence of the criminal act of VIN tampering.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

njsteve

12-06-2005, 07:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
--------Im also thinking of this car you might buy; you go to look at a car that you have known to be delivered a certain way. You decide to buy it and then notice the trim-tag is MIA for whatever reason. Do you walk away from a COPO or an LS6 etc. because its missing that tag??? Personally I wouldnt! I probably would try to get some sort of corroborating notarized stuff to back up what the car was and then get a tag popped. As well, I would be up front upon sale of that car about the tag situation and let the chips fall. But thats just me.........Bill S

[/ QUOTE ]

I once walked away from a $600 71 Trans Am that had its cowl tag and drivetrain missing just because I didn't want the stigma or rumors surrounding the car. But if you have evidence to back up how it came originally and have a repro trim tag made up and you are then upfront with the fact, there should not be a problem. For instance, if you later sold the car, I would put the whole story right on the bill of sale, in order to insulate you from some nefarious individual down the line.

70 copo

12-06-2005, 07:57 PM

Some one please correct me if I am wrong, but as I recall Jim Osborne was arrested in an FBI raid in 1988 at his place of business.

The government's issues were:

1. The reproduction of decals that were not licensed by GM, and

2. The reproduction of the Blue Certification stickers.

I think they actually locked him up at first. Osborne agreed to quit selling the blue certification stickers and to give GM a cut on the rest of the decals and then he continued in business.

I think some case law since then has clairified the Government's position in these matters since - but what happened to Jim back then was Scary indeed.

Phil

njsteve

12-06-2005, 08:30 PM

Yes, it was very scary back then too. GM and Chrysler used their legal muscle to push the issue and then settled for a cut of the profits from the sales if I recall correctly. The legal issues have been clarified since then. That is why the makers of these decals either sell them untyped or ask for some type of documentation to verify that you are the owner of the actual car.

Belair62

12-06-2005, 08:49 PM

Found this at Chevytalk http://www.classictiger.com/vinopin.html

Mr70

12-06-2005, 09:36 PM

Jim Osborn still sells the reproduction GM blue Door Vehicle certification label,that became mandatory,starting on the New 1970 sold Vehicles.
Part#DC-1318 for $10.50 w/clear overlay included.
http://www.osborn-reproduction.com/catal...184KEY%3APAR%3A (http://www.osborn-reproduction.com/catalog/ProductDetail.asp?rsProduct_Position=FIL%3ACAT+%3D +%27CB5A%27ORD%3AABS%3A184KEY%3APAR%3A)

njsteve

12-06-2005, 10:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Some one please correct me if I am wrong, but as I recall Jim Osborne was arrested in an FBI raid in 1988 at his place of business.

The government's issues were:

1. The reproduction of decals that were not licensed by GM, and

2. The reproduction of the Blue Certification stickers.

I think they actually locked him up at first. Osborne agreed to quit selling the blue certification stickers and to give GM a cut on the rest of the decals and then he continued in business.

I think some case law since then has clairified the Government's position in these matters since - but what happened to Jim back then was Scary indeed.

Phil

[/ QUOTE ]

Another thing I just recalled. (a rather important point actually) The "crimes" alleged were Federal copyright and trademark infringement/counterfeit labeling and not VIN-related crimes. Once the licensing agreements were signed, the case pretty much went away.

PeteLeathersac

12-06-2005, 11:08 PM

Since it's a reproduced 'Vin-ed' item, I'd look at using one of these as similar to restamping a motor or trans. . In either case, the door w/ Vin or drivetrain part w/ Vin can be swapped while inadvertently moving the Vins. . Of course applying a repop decal is much easier to attempt and you can try and try again if you're unhappy with the result unlike if your retamp goes bad, but easier doesn't make things any better or more honest? . If they were aware, any 'Re-Vin-ed' item would have different opinions depending on what local or Federal agencies and their agents feel at the moment. . Also like I've said before, reproducing Vins of any kind could subject your vehicle to possible destruction of any tags by the feds and a State reissued Vin thus greatly diminishing the value of the vehicle. . So like restamping, do whatever you feel comfortable with but allow this to be open knowledge come sale time to the serious buyer or certifying the car as "thorougbread' or other similar type status. . And again, if selling the vehicle, don't just tell the buyer this info, put it in writing so when the car is resold, you have proof you were above board and it's easy to see who dropped the ball of honesty. . As always, personal opinions here and subject to change without notice, any similarity to persons living or dead is purely coincidental, call with charge card in hand, operators are standing by. ~ Pete

camarojoe

12-06-2005, 11:24 PM

Geez....Its a just a friggin' repop decal in a doorjamb...its not like rebodying a car or swapping VIN numbers or anything...i don't think any certified signed letters need to be filled out about it before selling, nor do i think any government agencies are going to come take your car away if you stick one in your jamb...the more i read these posts, this whole subject seems silly to argue about.

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

12-06-2005, 11:30 PM

njsteve

12-06-2005, 11:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Geez....Its a just a friggin' repop decal in a doorjamb...its not like rebodying a car or swapping VIN numbers or anything...i don't think any certified signed letters need to be filled out about it before selling, nor do i think any government agencies are going to come take your car away if you stick one in your jamb...the more i read these posts, this whole subject seems silly to argue about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, it's just a stinkin sticker for cryin out loud - when you go to the DMV do they go look at the little stinkin sticker or do they go to the dash?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's exactly my point. Thank you and good night.

PeteLeathersac

12-06-2005, 11:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Geez....Its a just a friggin' repop decal in a doorjamb...its not like rebodying a car or swapping VIN numbers or anything...i don't think any certified signed letters need to be filled out about it before selling, nor do i think any government agencies are going to come take your car away if you stick one in your jamb...the more i read these posts, this whole subject seems silly to argue about.

[/ QUOTE ]

Joe....I know it's just a friggin' repop decal but it's a friggin' repop decal that includes the Vin, that's what makes it a debate. . If you feel so sure it's nothing, change one on your car and call the feds telling them what you've done and lets all see what happens? . Just kidding really but would you or anyone want to subject your car to some federal guys whim of what's right or wrong according to his interpretation of the law? . And a debate isn't silly....it's personal opinions, just like yours! ~ Pete

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

12-06-2005, 11:57 PM

I bought a few of the Jim Osbourn versions - just to get the clear overlay. I didn't like the quality of the repop's, so I re-used my original one (trimmed off the 'overage' on the original overlay, rounded off the corners of the JO version, and stuck it on!). If I left it off, (like a lot of owners do after repaints), would anyone really care? If I stuck a repop on after typin my VIN on it, would a buyer care? I don't think they would, but that's probably because I certainly wouldn't care http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Belair62

12-07-2005, 12:08 AM

Besides Pete...anyone knows that a Mercury Sno Twister would stomp a Ski Doo any day...with or without the compliance sticker...

olredalert

12-07-2005, 12:09 AM

------Geez, Pete,,,,,It sounds like you have more of a problem with government than with the decals. You arent alone!!!.......Bill S

camarojoe

12-07-2005, 12:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Joe....I know it's just a friggin' repop decal but it's a friggin' repop decal that includes the Vin, that's what makes it a debate. . If you feel so sure it's nothing, change one on your car and call the feds telling them what you've done and lets all see what happens? ~ Pete

[/ QUOTE ]I guess the repro Yenko window sticker displayed in my Deuce with the VIN typed on it is going to land me in Federal prison too then. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif I'll just tell them Marlin did it. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

12-07-2005, 12:26 AM

Thanks buddy! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

PeteLeathersac

12-07-2005, 01:02 AM

Ok, lets not get too carried away. . In days gone by when you wanted the Vin from a GM vehicle you were servicing, you went to this sticker as a Vin location as it was often easier to read than the Vin tag through the w'shld. . And again I'm saying do whatever you feel comfortable with as far as these stickers, restamping, repop cowl tags or whatever....I'd consider buying a vehicle with any of these situations but since it's a Vin-ed item would want it to be known and part of the purchasing decision.
And yes the Merc Twisters were wicked fast, at least the 76's liquids were. . I had a 76-340 for a few years....potent piece but just not a SkiDoo! ~ Pete

bilede

12-07-2005, 01:18 AM

Actually some of you may remember when I bought my deuce I had to get a repop sticker and put on the car to get it registered in arizona. I have never had this with pre 70 cars but 70 and up they wanted the sticker there. I got the repop from jim osborn and put it on the car and then no problems. there was an alternative of dropping off my car to them for a dismantle for hidden vin verification and then at their discretion they can use the GM vin or assign a new state issued vin. nothing personal but I would rather not leave to chance of a dmv clerk when all that happened was my car got repainted. cowl and vin tags are permenant, stickers are not..

CamarosRus

12-07-2005, 01:20 AM

Marlin, How does the OSBORNE Blue Sticker compare in appearance to Pontiac Don, if you know......or is doing a good job of typing the VIN on OSBORNE's just too much hassle??? finding old typewriter etc etc

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

12-07-2005, 02:25 AM

I don't know what Pontiac Don's looks like.

Bill Pritchard

12-07-2005, 06:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know what Pontiac Don's looks like.

[/ QUOTE ]

Marlin,

Take a look here...
http://216.178.81.108/forums/showthread....r%23post2292472 (http://216.178.81.108/forums/showthread.php?t=441272&page=2&pp=20&highlight=con formance+sticker%23post2292472)

There are several pages in that thread and the appearance of the stickers changes a bit as Don learns and produces more. Also differences between various years. Thanks to njsteve for referencing the link in an earlier post.