Trim Tag: none at all or repro?

[chavist93]

I have a small delima here. The 67 chevelle SS that I'm restoring was missing the trim tag when I bought it. It was lost somehow in an engine fire many years ago before those kinds of things were important. The car is all original, paint, interior, engine, tranny, rear so I have no questions about the car itself. Would you guys buy a reproduction trim tag to put on it or just leave it completely off? I dont like the idea of having a fake trim tag, but I think it would be better than none at all. Just need some opinions. Thanks

[musclecarjohn]

Personally if it was my car with no plans of selling it...sure,I'd opt for a re-pop...as long as you know what goes on it.

At the least,it'll hopefully end the never-ending questions you'll have to endure everytime you open your hood..."hey man,what happened to your trim tag...?"

[chavist93]

thats exactly what I was thinking. Who makes the best trim tags?

[musclecarjohn]

[ QUOTE ]
thats exactly what I was thinking. Who makes the best trim tags?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm...help anyone? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[Rick H]

The problem with fake trim tags is by the third owner they are no longer fake.

I know you don't plan on selling the car but things do change.

Anyway, www.trimtags.com (http://www.trimtags.com)

Rick H.

[Lynn]

"The problem with fake trim tags is by the third owner they are no longer fake." Absolutely the truth. You don't plan to sell it, but let's face it; plans change.

Personally, I would just leave it as is. There is no perfect fake tag out there. It raises more questions, and possibly problems, than no tag at all. If you don't want to put up with "the never-ending questions you'll have to endure everytime you open your hood..."hey man,what happened to your trim tag...?" "... you can just make a little tag that says "Original tag destroyed by engine fire and I refuse to put on a fake one."

Anyway, just my opinion. Not trying to force it on you, but you did ask.

Lynn

[Verne_Frantz]

I'm inclined to agree 100% with Lynn on that. While having no tag at all may prompt more questions, the answer is always easy and the same. If there's a repro tag on it, it won't get the obvious question as before, but before too long there will not only be more serious questions raised, but a lot of talk about the car and it's "real" heritage that you will never hear. Afterall, what body number would you put on it? You'd have to make one up, and it sure would be a shame if a car with it's original tag showed up with the same number. That could cause problems for 2 people, one of whom doesn't deserve any controversary over his car....

I also have to wonder about something else. No harm intended, but you stated the original cowl tag was destroyed in an engine compartment fire. Now, I have to think about how severe that fire had to be to completely melt away and "destroy" that tag. You also state, "The car is all original, paint, interior, engine, tranny, rear"
I have to wonder what might happen to the paint on a car's fenders, hood and upper cowl in such a fire...... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif Was the windshield cracked from the heat? Was the firewall pad toasted? Paint has a lower melting point than aluminum.

I said, I'm not trying to start trouble, but from what I've read so far, in my opinion things are sounding a little fishy....... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

[TXSS]

Just to be accurate. I belive he said "It was lost somehow" not destroyed.

I'd put a blank tag on

[Belair62]

[ QUOTE ]
It was lost somehow in an engine fire many years ago before those kinds of things were important.

[/ QUOTE ]

[chavist93]

Yes, I dont know the whole story on what actually made the tag come off or fall off. The engine fire doesnt seem that is was very bad. The fender or hood paint was not damaged. Here is a pic of the car.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/chavist93/lastscan.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/chavist93/lastsc.jpg

[Lynn]

Original quote said "It was lost somehow in an engine fire many years ago before those kinds of things were important." Obviously you are just repeating what you have been told, so no one is trying to hold your feet to the fire (no pun intended) on the previous statement, but Verne is on the money. I remember a very small carb fire on my 57 Chevy that ruined the paint on the hood, but caused no other damage (air cleaner was not installed as I was test driving it). Now, the hood could have been off the car, but still, heat serious enough to damage a trim tag would have caused some other serious damage. Perhaps the paint is just very old, but not original.

Back to the original question: I would still leave it off if it were my car.

Lynn

[chavist93]

The paint is original. I chemically stripped every panel myself by hand. I dont really care how the trim tag got missing, that is not the issue. I bought the car about 6 years ago knowing it didnt have it. This car is for personal enjoyment only as I had one for my first car in 1970. Times would have to get really rough for me to sell this one. I was told the fire story last year during the proces of finding the origial owner. The second owner from 20+ years ago told me this and he had no reason to lie. That aside, looks like most would just leave it off. Although i'm sure 99.9% of the people around here at local show wouldnt know the diff. between a real one and a fake one. Is there any way to estimate the body sequence # for the trim tag by the vin#?

[njsteve]

It's not as crazy as it sounds: if, after the fire, the previous owner pulled the tag off the firewall to get someone to decypher the paint code, it's a plausible possibility. I bring this up because years ago I checked out a 426 Hemi Charger Daytona that had its VIN plate peeled off of its dash with a screw driver. It ripped about 1/4 of the tag off. Why did someone do this you ask???? In early 1969 there was a paperwork discrepency with the Charger 500s and Daytonas. The VINs start with XX29 on a 500 and Daytona versus XS29 on a Charger R/T. After the cars left the factory, local motor vehicle offices started noticing the discrepency with cars showing the actual XX29 VIN plates but the manufacturer's paperwork showing XS29. On the Daytona I looked at, an owner somewhere along the line ran into this DMV problem and instead of trailering the car to the DMV inspector to show them and explain it was just a typographical error on the title, he used a screw driver and pried off the entire VIN plate. You can imagine the response he got at the DMV. He was lucky to leave the DMV with his original VIN in hand, normally they would have confiscated it. But now, 20 or 30 years later, the car has a torn up VIN plate and a bizarre, though true explanation. Maybe something ridiculously similar happened here?

[Verne_Frantz]

Yes, Steve, there might be a number of "crazy" reasons why someone would remove a trim tag. But if we stick to the evidence, it's been stated that it was removed due to an engine fire.

Now, as to providing advice to an estimated body number based on the VIN to make a recreated cowl tag look more authentic, I would hope that would bother every true hobbyiest's conscience.

The cowl tag is NOT a restoration part. Some cars have good luck and they retain their original features - some have bad luck and they don't. That's just the way it is. None of us are entitled to recreate history.

Sorry, nothing personal intended. I just have very strong feelings that so-called "reproduction" cowl tags have an an extremely negative effect in this hobby I love.

[hep1966]

How about using a factory original cowl tag from the same assembly plant. It would have to be correctly date coded of course. It's done all the time with engines, transmissions, rears, alternators, distributors, wheels, glass, etc. If the car were to be sold as having date correct components, then a replaced trim tag or alternator would be OK. Reproduction door tags with VINs seem to be OK with many people. Why is the trim tag so evil?

[Lynn]

Verne, you want this one?

Lynn

[hep1966]

Is Verne the master of trim tags?

[Belair62]

No he's just honest...

[RamAirDave]

The tag may have been lost due to the engine fire incident, but maybe not by the fire itself. Maybe during the repairs under the hood, the cowl tag was removed by the body shop when repairing/repainting the firewall. Ive seen it happen.

Of course, this is just a suggestion of a possibility, nothing more. Regardless the reason, the tag is gone, so maybe it doesnt matter.

As far as the trim/VIN tag swap question asked earlier in this thread, someone else can take care of that one.

dave

[chavist93]

I definately dont want to use a cowl tag from another car as someone suggested. Like I said the car was absolutely all original and if I were to get a new tag it would reflect EXACTLY how the car came from the factory. I have documtational photos of the whole restoration process so this is not about trying to hide or make up something. The chassis and engine/trand/rear are all done and back together and the car body is in the paint shop right now being done back to nantucket blue.

[Lynn]

[ QUOTE ]
Is Verne the master of trim tags?

[/ QUOTE ]

When I said "You want this one Verne?" it was only because it was late and I was going to bed.
Just being a bit of a smart alec. Besides, I knew Verne’s view would be simpatico.

Actually, Verne may not be the master of trim tags, but he is certainly a master of trim tags. On
page 3 of Colvin's Chevrolet by the Numbers for 1965-69 there is a note that states: "I would like
to especially thank Verne Frantz, Jr., President of the Jersey Late Greats, Inc., for his help in this
area." (speaking about trim tag decoding).

Why don't I like fake tags? Actually, I guess the question asked was "Why is the trim tag so
evil?" First, it is not the tag that is evil. It is the fake tag that is evil.

I understand this is still a hot topic and one with more that one point of view, but since the
question has been asked, I will answer it. Sorry for the length of this one.


1. The MAIN reason they are produced is to deceive. Now, before you get all defensive,
please note: I did NOT say the ONLY reason they are produced is to deceive. I have no
doubt someone can come up with a scenario with a legitimate sounding reason for a new
tag. If not for the possibility of deception why else would most folks be willing to pay
$250 for what is in effect a $20 part? An what about the legit tags that came off of legit
cars that were crushed. Why to they bring upwards of $700? For “novelty” purposes?
Puhleeze.

a. A couple of months a guy on ebay who goes by “ginadylan” was selling a car he had just
purchased the month before on ebay. He sells mostly Pontiac parts, and I am sure
provides lots of parts to folks who need them. However, he purchased a fairly rough X11
coded Camaro last August. About a month later he had the same car for sale, but with a
“reproduction trim tag” (I hate that phrase - but more on that later) with the same BDY
number, but now sporting an X22 code. Of course he misrepresented the car as an
original big block. Had one of his friends of relatives place some shill bids to bid the car
up. Before I even knew about the previous purchase I emailed him and asked him about
the tag because it looked fake in the pictures. Sure enough, he played it innocent. “Why
would you think the tag is fake?” he said, and acted as if he had no idea. Then I find out
about the other auction and check out a pic of the previous tag. That is fraud. The tag
forgers can say it is legal in all 50 states, but that is only referring to what you do with
your own car. If you alter it with the intent to deceive, it is fraud. He was pretty pissed
when I called him on it. I posted my findings and his emails on camaros.net. Said he was
going to sue me. So I gave him my name, business address and phone number.
Eventually, with the help of some other guys reporting this to ebay, they pulled the
auction.


b. Last spring, one of the guys on this board bought an X11 car that was cloned into a Z/28.
Nice car with DZ engine and BU rear. Correct tach and 4 leaf springs. I still don’t
understand the whole story on this one, but am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
The car was sold to another guy with an X33 trim tag. Supposedly that buyer knew the tag
had been swapped, although for sure the NEXT buyer did not know the tag was swapped
when he bought it and put if up for sale on ebay as a “numbers matching X33 Z/28". Now
this guy is really pissed and wanting to file a lawsuit. Bottom line is someone
misrepresented that car. The tag wasn’t swapped in the interest of originality, restoration,
or amusement or “novelty” purposes. It was swapped to make some money. Period.

c. Mark C. spots so many fake tags on ebay cars, I think he is getting carpal tunnel from
posting all the fakes. Funny how only big blocks, RS’s, Z/28's and the like show up with
fake tags. No one fakes just the color on their 6 cyl car. Why? They are putting a $250
“restoration” part on an otherwise plain jane and scoring several thousand for the effort
from unsuspecting folks. Of course, the funniest ones are on cars with a 6 cyl VIN, and the
guy is trying to represent it as a Z or big block.

2. Reproduction and restoration parts are supposed to put the car back close to its original
condition. Swapping a tag not only misses the point, it actually attempts to change part of
the car’s “DNA” into something it was not. Does that mean I am not allowed to make
modifications to my car? Not at all. Almost everyone made changes to these cars back
then. Why are the smog manifolds so scarce? Most of them were removed literally on day
2 in favor of some headers. Point is, we use the trim tag (at least on some models) so see
what the car is, and in some cases, to see how it was equipped, so we can restore it to that
condition. A fake trim tag isn’t a “reproduction” of anything. It is a forgery. As far as I
am concerned, you may as well be spending “reproduction” 20 dollar bills. The tag is
supposed to represent what the car is, not misrepresent what the car is.


3. Verne struck another chord when he stated: “I just have very strong feelings that so-called
"reproduction" cowl tags have an extremely negative effect in this hobby I love.” Suppose
a guy and his 15 year old son are new to the hobby and want to get started. He goes to a
local auction and purchases a 69 Z/28 project that must be legit because it has an X77 tag.
After lots of hours and lots of money, he finds out the tag is a fake. Sour taste? At the
very least. My next door neighbor did something quite similar, and it broke my heart to
have to tell him the Z/28 was a fake. I told him that I would be glad to go with him to
check out another car. Instead, he sold it ASAP and has given up on the hobby. Think
about it. Most of the very best friends I have are “car guys”. I have been over at friend’s
houses until the wee hours getting cars ready for a show. I have friends call me with weird
problems because I used to work as a mechanic back when these cars were new, and most
of the mechanics today can’t fix it if they can’t plug a scanner into it. Why do I help these
guys? Because of this “hobby I love.” Real car guys are the best. I just sold some
expensive original parts to a guy on this board. Told him to send me a personal check, and
I will probably ship before I even get it, let alone waiting for it to clear. Why? He is a real
car guy, and I don’t have to worry about getting burned. Think I would do that for
ginadylan (the guy on ebay who so brazenly swapped a tag and then acted innocent).
Unfortunately, my next door neighbor will never know what great guys real car guys are.

4. Alan Colvin feels so strongly about this that he won’t even publish the accessory codes for
fear his books would become the “Complete Guide on How to Build a Bogus Car.” He
goes on to state: “... until the hobby decides that this is wrong and learns to police itself, I
cannot in good faith publish the accessory codes.” Translation: there are too many
unscrupulous scum bags out there that would misuse the information.


My apologies to CHAVIST93. I did not intend to hijack your thread, but believe some of these
things needed to be said. I truly sympathize with your situation. However, you did ask for
opinions, so I gave it. I don’t mean to insinuate in any way that you were or are looking to do
something shady. Quite the contrary, if you were trying to deceive anyone, you certainly wouldn’t
start by posting your question on a public forum. I know some guys will point to your situation
and say this is exactly why we need a trim tag reproduction industry. Sorry, but for every
legitimate story out there, there are thousands that are sold just to help someone make a dishonest
buck.

I don’t know much about 67 Chevelles, but doesn’t the trim tag denote whether the car is an SS?
If the car has its original engine and trans, that’s pretty good evidence right there. It is a great
looking car. I remember tooling around with a friend in high school who had a similar one, same
color with a black vinyl top. Boy would that thing burn rubber! Being an SS, a fake tag would
come under more scrutiny. For instance, now everyone is questioning every tag, just because
there are so many fakes out there. You can’t help that it had no tag when you bought it.
However, if the car ever does change hands and a fake tag is discovered, the assumption is going
to be that the whole car was faked.

Again, just my opinion.

Lynn

[Verne_Frantz]

I would just like to point out that Lynn and I don't really know each other personally. I don't know that much about him, and he probably doesn't know that much about me. So, we're not "teaming up" against anyone. We have had no personal correspondence about these issues at all.
What I have learned though, from reading his prior posts, is that we seem to have some of the same views about the integrity of this hobby we both love. We are also both pointedly opinionated about our feelings regarding the sanctity of "real" cars...original cars.
Lynn has impressed me numerous times with his comments, but none more than this last one. (and NOT because he mentioned my name - that only embarrassed me).
I have a personal view that none of us are important at all. It's the cars that are important. We're only the temporary caretakers of them, if we're lucky. Will they be preserved properly for those in the future long after we're all gone? Will their history be saved?
I wish the vast majority of people in this wonderful hobby had Lynn's views. It's too bad there's so much money in it today. That changes things.

[JoeG]

[ QUOTE ]
Although i'm sure 99.9% of the people around here at local show wouldnt know the diff. between a real one and a fake one.

[/ QUOTE ]-----------Cha-Ching $$$$$

[Pacecarjeff]

I completly agree with Lynn, and Vern. This fake stuff is really ruining the hobby.
This is not buyer beware anymore - that is fraud.
I had a similar discussion about repro POP's on Team Camaro, some of those guys just didn't get it.http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

Fake POP discussion (http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=67616) Interesting reading - I have a way with words. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

If it were me, I would find a tag off another 1967 Car and put that up there in it's place.
Most people wouldn't know the difference, and the ones that do, would understand your explanation.

Otherwise, I guarentee somewhere down the road, someone is going to get burned. Maybe your great-grandson will sell the car. He will believe it to be a real tag. It never fails.

I have a large collection of trim tags (for refrence only)
I would be glad to find you a Cadillac tag or something. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[musclecarjohn]

Boy...riveting and compelling commentary from both Lynn and Vern.

Lynn,
I appreciate your point of view.Your compassion for the hobby is quite evident.

Vern,
Your words are so true.It's the cars that are the stars and we are only the lucky ones to be the caretakers.
Money has certainly clouded the picture...

Thank you both for sharing your feelings.

[chavist93]

Lynn, no apologies necessary. I wanted to hear everyones opinion. For those who didnt know on 67 chevelles the trim tag didnt dictate SS or Mailbu. The vin did that, 138... for an SS 136... for a Malibu. The trim tag only told int/ext color, buckets or bench, assembly plant, transmissions, and a few options.

Pacecarjeff the problem I have with taking a tag off another car is that to me it seems more deceptive than a fake one. That is unless I could fine one with exactly the same color combo and options, but what are the chances of that. I have 3 SS parts cars with trim tags, but I dont want to go that route. I understand 99% of trim tags sold are used to change a car. Maybe I should get a new tag and have "REPLACEMENT" stamped into it. I dunno.

[lowmile]

If you want a trim tag on the car, just have the tag made the way you want and have REPRO TAG stamped near the bottom. That way it won't ever be mistaken for the real thing. Simple enough? m

[PeteLeathersac]

Great topic and points by all. . Personally I think I'm against the repop tags but have to admit if I was in these shoes may feel different? . I think I'd consider the used tag way first but whatever way anyone would go, do whatever you feel best....it's your car! . But like restamps, repop or used Trim tags and repop items that include the Vin need to be open knowledge to a buyer come sale time or if the vehicle is presented for status certification. ~ Pete

[Pantera]

[ QUOTE ]


For instance, now everyone is questioning every tag, just because
there are so many fakes out there. You can’t help that it had no tag when you bought it.
However, if the car ever does change hands and a fake tag is discovered, the assumption is going
to be that the whole car was faked.

Again, just my opinion.

Lynn

[/ QUOTE ]

My thoughts are with you and Vern. I would like to add to the above comment by raising a question.

What if one was faked and the car sold and some new 2nd owner down the line found out and went back in a lawsuit against each previous owner seeking money for the difference in value or his money back?

I realize there is a time limit like 3 or 5 years here in Okla. but would faking one and not discloseing something like this not leave a person a sitting duck for a lawsuit?

Pantera

[Leonard1]

I have to agree with Lynn and Verne in regards to "repo" trim tags. If a fake tag is discovered, it brings the whole car into question, regardless of what the intentions were.

[Pacecarjeff]

No one who orders a "replica" trim tag, (except maybe for this one guy).
To use the exact information on their existing tag.
EVERY SINGLE PERSON CHANGES SOMETHING.

Whether it is the interior color, or paint color, or to make it a Z/28. or a big Block. There is a reason for doing it and it is not "usually" an honest one.

I know of a few Corvette guys who have every piece of original documentation on their cars. However years ago some idiot wanted to change to leather interior, or go from green to red. Back then it was not a big deal. NOW the cars have phoney trim tags on them. Can't get Gold at Bloomington. They are perfect cars but the pedigree is always questioned.
These were not documented changes, and no one has the original tags anymore - those cars are screwed.

WHEN YOU CHANGE SOMETHING IT ALWAYS COMES BACK AT YOU.
MIGHT TAKE 20 YEARS. BUT SOMEONE IS GOING TO LOSE.

The only purpose for a "replica" POP or Trim tag is to change something.
No other purpose, Nada / none.

It always starts out honestly, (a guy wants to change his car to leather interior)
It's his car he can do whatever he wants - RIGHT.
Well 20 years ago, no one could tell the difference.
Now 2 or 3 or 4 owners later, that car has a "repro tag" - even though it is a real car, and hasn't been changed except for the tag and interior- Someone gets screwed.
Usually it is the guy who doesn't know better, or is new to the hobby.

You don't know what your body number was, so you have to pick one. Someone may already have that one in use - sounds like a problem.

It is a no win situation, except for the guy who buys it from you and then makes money on it.

Someone earlier had sugested a tag with no body number, or maybe XXX's - I thought that is a good idea - I thought that is what GM used to do if the tag was damaged

[Verne_Frantz]

As for the "X"s, that's correct. If incorrect characters were stamped on the tag, it was reloaded into the fixture and re-pressed with "X"s over the wrong info, and the correct info was added alongside. But I've only seen this on the Trim, Paint and ACC lines. Based on the earlier tags that I am familiar with, the tags went through two embossing tools. The first stamped the build date, year and style number, the plant designation and sequential body number. The other information was added later, after that particular body got picked from the "bank" and assigned to a car build order (a Broadcast). Sometimes the second stampings overlapped the first ones.

Verne

[Lynn]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


For instance, now everyone is questioning every tag, just because
there are so many fakes out there. You can’t help that it had no tag when you bought it.
However, if the car ever does change hands and a fake tag is discovered, the assumption is going
to be that the whole car was faked.

Again, just my opinion.

Lynn

[/ QUOTE ]

My thoughts are with you and Vern. I would like to add to the above comment by raising a question.

What if one was faked and the car sold and some new 2nd owner down the line found out and went back in a lawsuit against each previous owner seeking money for the difference in value or his money back?

I realize there is a time limit like 3 or 5 years here in Okla. but would faking one and not discloseing something like this not leave a person a sitting duck for a lawsuit?

Pantera

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually the limitation is 2 years for fraud, but the two years does not begin to run until the fraud is discovered. Actual wording of the Okla Statute is "... Two years....an action for relief on the ground of fraud - the cause of action in such case shall not be deemed to have accrued until the discovery of the fraud". The courts have further defined the discovery to include not only actual discovery, but the time a "reasonable man" (fictitious nonexistant person - if we are men we can't be reasonable, just ask your wife)would have, or should have discovered the fraud.

Lots of liablility hanging out there in my opinion. I know from personal experience that one of the guys that frequents this board came within an eylash of getting sued by a guy who had the bucks to finance a serious lawsuit. He doesn't know how lucky he was that the buyer ended up making enough on the car that he essentially had no damages.
Check some of the Ferrari boards. It is my understanding some guys have gotten hammered pretty bad in court after changing tag info. Yeah, it was legal to do it to their own car. But fraud is fraud, and if it is used to deceive, and someone gets burned, there can be serious civil repercussions. If it happens in the right state, with an agressive DA or AG, could also end up with some criminal repercussions.

No, I don't think we should run to court every time someone causes a hangnail. If damages get serious enough, that is where it will end up. After all, the real fraudsters are doing it to make more money. If they get hit in the pocketbook, maybe they will quit.

Lynn

[Pantera]

Lynn,

Thanks for the very good reply. It was even better than I had in mind.


Since some of them just may be reading these posts I hope that they stop and think about what you just posted. Perhaps the best way to put a stop to these guys is for them to be hammered in court a few times and they will think twice about commiting fraud. After all it is all about the Money...!


Pantera

[chavist93]

Ok, put yourself in my shoes for a minute. Everything about fraud and all aside, because that is not what this is about. If this was your car that you planned on keeping for the rest of your life what would you do? Just leave nothing there or but a fake one that reflects exactly how the car came from the factory?

[PeteLeathersac]

Ok Tim, in your shoes I'd consider finding a used tag first. . Even though the body number would be wrong, it'd be wrong if you make one up for a repop tag anyway. . Give it a go, it may be fun searching and if you can't find something acceptable to yourself, consider the repop unit....you may have a whole different perspective then anyway and not shelled out the dough yet? ~ Pete

[chavist93]

I have 3 parts cars with tags, all of them the wrong colo though. I really havn't seend many nantucket blue SS cars. If I went with a repop I could use the body number off one of the parts cars so I wouldnt have anyone elses number.

[Lynn]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, put yourself in my shoes for a minute. Everything about fraud and all aside, because that is not what this is about. If this was your car that you planned on keeping for the rest of your life what would you do? Just leave nothing there or but a fake one that reflects exactly how the car came from the factory?

[/ QUOTE ]

I absolutely sympathize with you. As I stated before, there is no question you are not trying to deceive anyone or you wouldn't have posted the question on a very public forum.

Also, the fact that your VIN designates an SS certainly would be a mitigating circumstance. Hope you understand that this has really turned into a general discussion about ropopped tags rather than a discussion of your initial question. That is why I apologized for hijacking your thread.

As far as what to do, that is certainly your decision. However, there are certain folks that I refuse to do business with just on principles. Once another lawyer lies to me, I will never take his or her word again. If they want me to act on something, they must give it to me in writing (has only happened twice, but believe me, I know who those two lawyers are, and always will). I wouldn't buy anything from someone whom I know is using illegal child labor, even if I have to pay more to get a comparable product. I buy New Balance shoes partly because they are the only manufacturer I know of who still makes very wide shoes for my EEEE foot, but I also seek them out on principle because they are the last major sport shoe manufacturer in the U.S. In other words, I vote with my money.

I would not give a trim tag company one dime to further what they are doing regardless of how much I might like the product, because I don't like what they are doing to the hobby. I admit I am lucky in that my trim tag is in pristine condition. Not sure if I have a small enough pic, but if so, I will attach it. Someone else stated on this thread that he might feel differently if his car needed a new tag for whatever reason. I honestly don't think I would. Doesn't make me any better than anyone else, just more opinionated.

Would I look down on you if you put a repop tag on? Not at all. Hopefully we can just agree to disagree, respectfully. Wouldn't look down on anyone that bought a Nike shoe either. I have lots of friends that I disagree with on some issues. The free exchange of ideas and opinions helps us all grow.

Overall, I think http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/youguysrock.gif, even the guys that disagree with me.

Now, I need to get to work on my car one of these days so I can go drive the crap out of it.

Lynn

[Verne_Frantz]

Getting back to the original question.....would you mind trying to explain why you feel you NEED a tag on the firewall of the car you plan to own 'till you die and just enjoy?
If your restoration goal is to try and make the car as "right" as possible, any other tag you put on it will not be "right".
If the goal is to have a car that looks great, runs great and is a ball to own and drive forever, what difference does a tag on the firewall make?

If you lose your birth certificate, you can call the hospital where you were born and the state to obtain a replacement. The birth certificate of your car is gone. You can't call Fisher Body and get a duplicate. ANY tag you could put on that car now would be incorrect.
Why not just enjoy the car? I don't understand the "need"................ http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[chavist93]

Well really because it looks silly without one there. I love going to local car shows and cruises and I dont want to hear "hey, wheres your trim tag?" all the time. Of course I could leave the hood closed but whats the fun in that? If a fake one is ther I dont really think people would look close enough to even tell its fake. I know I wouldnt unless I was looking to buy. Anyways the answer to your question, just for looks.

[lowmile]

What's wrong with my idea??? Have all of your info stamped on new tag and have "REPO TAG" stamped on the bottom. You get your tag and no one ever gets fooled. Seems easy enough. m

[RamAirDave]

Just want to start off by saying I agree with those here on the entire fake tags, vins, etc. And I like the idea of having a "clone" stamp. Ive been thinking about that for a while, and when the time comes that I build one, I'm thinking about stamping "clone" into the tag and the engine block. But anyway.

Let me run this one by you guys.

Around 1990 or so, a friend of the family bought a 69 PC. Original paint, original interior, and #s matching everything (exc for rear end). However, sometime years earlier, someone had robbed the car of the cowl hood, all the cowl induction parts, 12 bolt, and the trim tag. Other wise, the car was basically unmolested, so no doubt of it being a real PC.

The dealer sticker was still on the back of the car. Looked them up, still in business, and believe it or not, they were able to dig up some original paperwork from the car. The same old guy still owned the dealership, and he was able to obtain the original dealer invoice on the car.

He had a repop tag made for the car. But in this circumstance, with paperwork, having had the original paint and interior prior to resto, and everything (but rear end, of course) #s matching, do you think this could qualify as the one in a million legit reasons to have one (meaning no intention of fraud, whatsoever)?

Of course, looking back in hindsight, with the current climate of the hobby/market, maybe not a great idea. I'm sure the tag is easily spotted now, but has paperwork behind it. Have no idea how the BDY # was chosen. I would think there are now two cars out there with that particular #.


dave

[chavist93]

I like the idea of stamping something like "repro tag" or "replacement tag" or something of that sort. Not "clone" as RamAirDave suggested because the car is in no way a clone. I think that way Is has best of both worlds. Worst part would be forking out over 200 bucks for a piece of scrap metal.

[PeteLeathersac]

Again such a great topic and all really valid opinions and ideas but w/ the endless unique circumstances that can present itself, it's not possible to nail down a simple right or wrong way of dealing w/ it. . The only constant thing that is possible is, whatever anyone does in their own personal situations w/ restamps, repop or used Trim tags and repop items that include the Vin (incl. door stickers), let it be open knowledge to a buyer come sale time or if the vehicle is presented for status certification.
With this '67 SS situation, although I admire how the owner is open about it all off the hop, it seems somewhat contradicting when he says the concern is so someone at a show won't say 'hey, where's your trim tag?' and not for close inspection yet also claims he can't use a tag off his own parts cars as the colors are wrong? .
So whatever happens w/ this SS or in any of the unique murky situations we encounter, do whatever you feel best with, just be open and admit whatever you've done when the time comes? ~ Pete

[TDW]

Have a repro one made that says;

What the hell you lookin at?
Are you the trim tag police?

[Belair62]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[chavist93]

[ QUOTE ]
Have a repro one made that says;

What the hell you lookin at?
Are you the trim tag police?

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be hilarious. I'll put it on there if you buy it. LOL

Pete actually the trim tag doesnt have the vin on it.

[Lynn]

[ QUOTE ]


He had a repop tag made for the car. But in this circumstance, with paperwork, having had the original paint and interior prior to resto, and everything (but rear end, of course) #s matching, do you think this could qualify as the one in a million legit reasons to have one (meaning no intention of fraud, whatsoever)?
dave

[/ QUOTE ]

Dave:

I really respect you, respect your point of view, respect all of the great advice you have given so many even though you and I have never met or talked. I've seen pictures of some of your work, and you do some really good work.

However, I really think the answer to this one is obvious. With all the documentation on this particular car, why mess it up with a fake (notice I said fake, not reproduction, reproduced, or restoration part) trim tag. It will forever call into question ALL ASPECTS of the car.

The logic goes like this: "Well if he faked the trim tag, did he fake the engine, fake the dealer sticker, fake the other documents?"

I really don't understand why it is so hard to accept the history of the car as it is for what it is. You are an honest guy. After you put GM quarters on a car, regardless of how well, you wouldn't advertise the car as having it original quarters. So it needed quarters. Big deal. Just tell them it needed quarters, and they were done correctly. That is part of the history of the car.

For example, check out this thread about, of all things, what appears to be a real Pace Car with an obvious fake tag.

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=69425

Have to admire the guy who said: "Its not one of the real blatant style of fake tags, but theres enough there to tell."

Lynn
My opinion, and only because you asked.

[RamAirDave]

Lynn,

I completely agree, and the respect is more than mutual. I appreciate your comments. Not just based on this thread, but on all the others youve had on this board and TC.

I totally agree with your logic (the same that I have) that it will question the car. But back in that time (1990 or so), things were different. The money wasnt as big as it is now, and the internet wasnt around to share so much info and opinions. Today, it would be better to have no tag at all, I would think, especially having paper on it.

I'm definately against the "fake" cars, as you may already know. Like yourself, I will help or share info/knowledge about all those that show up. The main part of my sharing the story of that particular car was to show that not every single repo tag was for the sole purpose of fraud. Unfortunately, the other 99% or so is for that reason.

Lynn, youre "somewhat" local to me. If youre ever in the LR area, it would be great for you to give me a call.

Side note: Last I heard (99 or 00), the car was in S Cal. No options really other than the RS/SS PC things, column shift. Would be interested if anyone knows of the car out there.

dave

[chavist93]

Lynn, I'm not really familiar with camaros, only chevelles. Can you tell me how you can tell its a fake tag? Well besides the new paint on it.

[Pacecarjeff]

[ QUOTE ]
Lynn, I'm not really familiar with camaros, only chevelles. Can you tell me how you can tell its a fake tag? Well besides the new paint on it.

[/ QUOTE ]

That stuff should be left to private conversations.
Before too long no one will be able to tell the difference anyways.
We dont need to help the counterfeiters get it right sooner. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Lynn]

Dave I would love to see some of your work in progress. I will be making a road trip to Gulfport MS next spring, but will probably take the souther route, rather than I-40. Don't think I have been I40 east as far as Arkansas since 1994. I do make it to Lake Tenkiller every once in a while, so maybe on one of those trips we could coordinate something.

BTW, what do you call a family in Arkansas with all their teeth?



Visitors.

What lives in Arkansas and has 28 teeth?



A family of 5.

[RamAirDave]

Does Oklahoma have a tree yet, or do they still have to staple leaves to telephone poles?

Know why TX hasnt fallen away from the continent yet? Because Oklahoma sucks.

Sorry, couldnt resist http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

dave

[Lynn]

Don't apologize. I started it. You gotta be able to laugh at yourself, right? Actually, the reason it is so windy in OK is because Kansas blows and Texas sucks.

I have always said the only reason anyone came to Oklahoma is because they gave it away (after stealing it) and the only reason anyone stayed is because they struck oil.

Lynn

[Verne_Frantz]

Well, since this has turned into an Okey/Texas thing, I have to share one....
I was driving a '64 Impala wagon I bought for my wife back from Studio City, CA, and stopped in a restaurant in northern Texas for breakfast. Inside one of the bathroom stalls someone had written,
"Here I sit, buns a flexin'
Givin' birth to another Texan"..................

I laughed so hard, I gave myself stomach cramps........

[Belair62]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif