COPO Camaro

[Supergas990]

NOT mine, and I don't have any cash. Maybe it's worth a look.

http://www.racingjunk.com/exec/ca/view/547400/1969-Camaro-COPO.html

Could be someones lucky day.

Blair

[Salvatore]

This brown is starting to grow on me. Not many around. Wish they had more pictures.

[bbbenny]

sammy; sell that small block and move up to the BIG league!!!!!!!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gifbbbenny

[Seaspray]

Why is the price so low? That kinda scares me.

[b4c_maro]

I talked to the owner and am considering making a trip to look at the car. Anyone know if Reggie had a Brown COPO in his collection at somepoint, and if so, did it have #'s matching drivetrain and POP?

[b4c_maro]

bext question - did anyone download and save the COPO VIN List that use to be available at COPO Connection? Its not there anymore....

[Jeff H]

Here's a post about this car from earlier this year.

Brown Reggie COPO (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=copous&Number=136076&page =1&fpart=all)

[b4c_maro]

Jeff - this one is supposed to be a numbers matching car with POP - 11A build X44D80 car with cahmbered exhaust. the mention in that thread of Reggies was that it was a clone. The owner was 'told' it once belonged to Reggie, but no proof. Any ideas on the VIN list to check it out?

[jfkheat]

Tas, you have mail.
James

[b4c_maro]

thanks James!!!

[COPO]

After reading the other thread I would be very careful.

[Jeff H]

What's the VIN and NOR number? I have a list I can compare it to. I grabbed Ed's information a while ago and have it in a file.

[b4c_maro]

I didnt ask for the VIN when I talked to him - wanted to make sure I could compare and I also know some folks are uneasy about providing that. Have asked for a copy of the POP. trim tag is NOR155017 - again 11A build date. also weird is paint code 61 followed by an "F". Any ideas

[deuce-less]

the seller told me the pop was provided to him by a research company. wagners car was inspected by ed c.
and determined to be a clone. supposedly the casting dates and numbers looked right on the car at wagners, it was well done, but a clone. texas muscle cars had a chance to purchase the texas car but passed, i understand that the vin was the same as the wagners car.

[Charley Lillard]

The Wagner car was at Scottsdale a couple years ago and part of it's documentation the the timeslips off my old COPO car that someone downloaded off a web site and printed out. It was a clone. This is probably the same car but now has a protecto plate probably documented by the nutcase that claimed to have all of Vunce Piggins records...

[b4c_maro]

do we know the VIN of the Wagner car? I should be able to get the VIN of this car and compare the 2 to determine if its the same car

[deuce-less]

scott wagner will call me with the vin on monday morning, i know that scott provided the vin to a potential buyer in texas and he did not purchase the car. i am not sure if the two cars are the same, but i would be careful on any potential purchase.

[b4c_maro]

any COPO's known to originate from the Louisville KY area? He didnt have the Dealer name on the POP - but the original owner was from Louisville...

[deuce-less]

the vin number is 124379n695xxx, does that match up with the posted trim tag info??

[Pacecarjeff]

512 Block -- TO923MN -- X44D80
11A -- 124379N69538*
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/111/111196/folders/67366/1760451copo1.JPG

[quick-bowtie]

Its the same car..its been floating around now for over a year.. Ive had numerous guys offer me that car. as the old saying goes.. "If it sound to good to be true then it probably is"

[Pacecarjeff]

Seller seemed a little put off when I explained that I wanted to see a photo copy of the POP. I told him the people who make those still have not gotten it exactly right.

The whole thing really sounds fishy - He seems to be playing dumb. But I don't know for sure. And if it is real, the price is too low to pass up.

But as everyone remembers -
(if it is to good to be true.......)

Says he has owned 43 Corvettes and had them NCRS judged, but is unfamilar with some of the simple stuff.

The POP - does it look old?

http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/111/111196/folders/67366/1760480popcopo2.JPG http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[b4c_maro]

AS for VIN mathcing trim tag - VIN looks like early October, trim tag is 11A - that does raise a quesiton. I got a copy of the same POP, although the owner didnt seem to mind sending it or providing the VIN. Does it look right to the folks that have more knowledge about them than I do? Also, there is reference in the link that Jeff H provided about a brown COPO from Columbus that was tagged for a brown vinyl top but it wasnt on the car. Is the location/VIN of that car known?

[deuce-less]

does the inservice date on the pop say 11-7-69 as it appears in the photo. if the trim tag says 11a, then they got that car sold in one helluva hurry.

[resto4u]

looks real to me. Vin# is N695386, that is what i see on the pop.

[b4c_maro]

Yes, it looks like 11-7-69 and the owner advised nothing was on it for the selling dealer or sales date. I sent an email to clarify if in service date was there or not. I'm thinking same thing - some things not lining up just right, but I sure dont want to write off the 'dream car' without knowing 100% that it isnt real...especially when it's one that I might could liquidate and actually afford.

[deuce-less]

on the older pop's that i've seen the gm tape insignia does not look fresh and green like that tape, also most of the time the tape has lost it's adhesive ability and is being held on by clear scotch tape jmo.

[SMGCO]

If it is the same car , now with pop, that was at wagners a couple years ago then it is definately a clone. I think wagners was the first to get fooled and was for some time attempting to sell it as the real deal. Our freind dennis tuttle was involved with this car for a while also. By the way anybody know what Mr. Tuttle is up to these days ? Would be hard to believe that he is still in business.

[b4c_maro]

6161x11 - yes, that part of the VIN matches, as does the additional digits that PaceCarJeff added. The trim tag does designate this car to have a brown vinyl top - did the Wagner car have that as well?

[SuperNovaSS]

I hope Tuttle is still in business. I still have an unsatisfied judgement against him.


Jason

[deuce-less]

the wagner car did not have a vinyl roof, also i,m not sure that the wagner car was a heater delete, i don't know what the wagner car had for a trim tag code as far as the vinyl roof is concerned. i do know that willie wagner flew ed c.
in to look at the car and determined it was a clone, it was well enough done that it fooled wagners. i believe that ed c. found a wiring harness discrepancy that sealed the clone title on the car. the shifter on the wagner car had some marks on the lower part of the shifter shaft that looked like it had been heated and bent to a little different position than the stock shifter, down near the sifter boot base. also scott wagner said that all the date codes and stampings were correct at the time they bought the car, they sold it and delivered it out of state, then the new owner had some questions that couldn't be answered, wagners ended up refunding the money and selling the car as a clone. it sold the second time around for about $52,000.00, scott said that it was a nice car, though the motor was a little bit tired.

[Jeff H]

Well, the POP looks pretty good so if it's a fake they did a great job. But if this is the car that had the tags removed at the junkyard then this could be a legit POP but the car is a complete rebody from what I gather reading those old threads. Any car that Tuttle was involved with, I would stay far away from. And the heater delete is not legit since the car was sold in the lower 48 states it was required to have a heater. There are threads going back to 2002 about this car so do some searches and enjoy the reading.

[deuce-less]

scott wagner was nice enough to call me back this afternoon with the vin# information, the car being discussed is indeed the car that was at wagners in 2002. scott wagner is a trustworthy dealer in my opinion and welcomed any calls with questions from members. i hope this saves some one a big head ache

[deuce-less]

one further note, in 2002 the car did not have a pop

[Stuart Adams]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif Amazing how that seems to happen.

[b4c_maro]

Very amazing - especially with a POP that looks so good to most folks. I'll just keep looking for that affordable needle in a haystack. Thanks for everyone's information, input, advice, suggestions and guidance!

[Stefano]

This comment is in reference to protecto plates: There are companies/individuals who have been in business many years stamping these plates. Some actually use original blanks as well as the original stamping machine and sometimes even vintage warranty booklets while others do not.

[deuce-less]

if anyone is interested, scott has provided a copy of the ed c. findings page on this particular car. pm me an e-mail address and i will e-mail you back the file, i don't know how to post any files. scott said that they lost $20,000.00 on the deal to make it right with their customer.

[Rick H]

This "COPO" was discussed as part of this thread. Charley knows about the car.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/136076/an/0/page/1 (Been discussed here.)

Rick H.

[69LM1]

Going to go look at the car tomarrow. It is about four miles from me. I have bought parts from the current owner before, and he has always seemed nice enough. On the phone, he readily admitted that the car was probably a rebody. I will get the full story tomarrow. He may have gotten stuck with it.

I know many of you disagree, (flame up) but if it is just a rebody issue, I say no big deal if that is put out into the open (in fact, should have been in the ad from day 1). I do not see a whole lot of difference between a rebody and a complete sheetmetal job that many camaro's these days have.

I am more concerned with the drivetrain being numbers matching and it (or at least the cowl) being from a real CoPo car. After all, it was the drivetrain that set the car apart.

Not trying to start a flame war, just saying........

Rich

[Canucklehead]

You might want to look at the ZL1 clone for sale here, seems like a very nice car and he did a great job for a fair price. I think it's a better buy.

[69LM1]

[ QUOTE ]
You might want to look at the ZL1 clone for sale here, seems like a very nice car and he did a great job for a fair price. I think it's a better buy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes that is one fine ride. On the brown camaro, looks like (vin) numbers are not on the pad, so he wants to try and see if they are by the oil filter. Looks like more and more the car is not a "deal".

Rich

[b4c_maro]

here is the text of an email I received after asking some questions:

Here is the info. Motor 512-- I-14-8 Looks like the date on the block-----front pad ----T0923 MN----- Vin numbers in the side by the oil filter-----79n695386---- Trans---tail---3857584----case---3925660 ------#P9E28C---- Carb-----3959164-GE? List 4346---Date---983 or 988? Rear---- BE 09129 Its very hard to read the date on the rear end But you can see the (BE ) code. Her are some pics.

(not sure if I'll get the pic in, but it does have the vin)

[69LM1]

"Vin numbers in the side by the oil filter-----79n695386---- Trans"

Can this be (restamped) faked, like the front pad?

[b4c_maro]

I would think it could...if someone is good. VIN by the oil filter would be correct for the build date of the car. Big question is whether or not the VIN is stamped on the cowl panel under the wipers. Looks like I will be in New Orleans/Metairie 1st week of Jan. If car is still avail and schedule allows, I'll try to take a look at it.

[Pacecarjeff]

[ QUOTE ]
"Vin numbers in the side by the oil filter-----79n695386---- Trans"

Can this be (restamped) faked, like the front pad?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would think it would be easier to stamp down there. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
There are no machined pads or broach lines to worry about.
The numbers are generally hard to read anyways.

[Charley Lillard]

It has been awhile but one of the bogus cars started as a trim tag off a car in a junkyard. It was a burnished brown with a brown vinyl top trim tag. If you inspect the car you will see it has it's orig. 1/4 panels and they have never had vinyl top trim attached to them. That would give you a clue that the trim tag does not belong to that car. I believe Warren ? knew the details of the whole bogus car being built. It was even featured in a magazine. Somebody besides me has to remember the details better than me.

[MosportGreen66]

I asked for pictures of the Camaro too... this is what he sent me.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/mosportgreen66/cars009.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/mosportgreen66/cars002.jpg

[12bolt]

[ QUOTE ]
"Vin numbers in the side by the oil filter-----79n695386---- Trans"

Can this be (restamped) faked, like the front pad?

[/ QUOTE ]The VIN numbers on my former COPO's engine were crisp and clean. stamped into Rough Casting, It would not be an easy chore to pull off. I am not saying it is impossible to fake, but if you remove the paint from the area in question, you should be able to tell if it has been modified or not. in my opinion, the price that guys are charging for Clones these days he may as well call it that and he might get a Buyer! trying to pass off a car as Real when so much is against it does not seem like the "Smart Move"! maybe he cannot admit to himself that he got burnt? Rule no.1 : when you find yourself in a Hole, "Quit Digging"! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[DarrenX33]

I think the asking price is one heck of a clue. Who is gonna part with a real COPO for under 90k? I remember the Olympic Gold two tone "COPO" at Mecum recently was sold at a bargin price. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[69LM1]

Hypothetically(sp) speaking, (and there are to many questions on this car) which would you rather have. (That what I was trying to get at, did the drivetrain in this car come from the same car as the vin and trim tag?):

1. A Real CoPo, documented, but non original drivetrain
or
2. A rebodied CoPo (ttag, Vin etc) documented, with the drivetrain that came with it (the tags that is)?

Is'nt the drivetrain what made these cars special? I had heard that the VIN by the oil filter was very difficult to restamp, and was wondering if that was urban myth or true.

Think I'll stick with the SS396! Way less and no issues!

Rich

[camarojoe]

Real car over rebody... any day. Didn't we just hash this all out a week ago? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[prototype]

Real car, hands down!!!

[69L72RS]

Hi Rich.
A real car with real body is the only way to go. IMO

I will post my opinion on the ease of restamping the VIN by the filter, hopefully without causing too much of a disturbance.

It is way to easy!!! The difficulty is a myth. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif
They count on the buyers not knowing what to look for.
1)Start with a "CE" block for the best result (no Vin stamp by filter).
2)Deck/rebroach block.
3)Rent gang stamp sets from sellers in Hemmings
4)Restamp block
5)Return stamp set
6)You magically now have a numbers matching block. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

The good news is that "CE" blocks are usually easy to identify.
There are are a few other types of blocks that work better
for "restamping" for certain models of cars, but they have a much higher intial cost for the "donor" block.

Buyers should always know what they are looking at and how to tell if it real before making the purchase.

Sorry for rambling on about an off topic subject. Just tried to answer Rich's question about the ease of block stamping.

Hey Rob, I will send you the checklist for block switches
and what to look for next week.

Later,
Eric

[Jeff H]

I would never want a rebody no matter what. The swapped tags are illegal and could lead to big trouble in the future. Who really has the title to the car with that VIN? As for clone vs real with missing original drivetrain, as long as each vehicle is represented for what it is, it would depend on the price as to which vehicle I would want to buy. If you put all the correct Z28 or COPO parts on a 327 car then it would be just as much fun to drive as a real Z28 or COPO so it would come down to price.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

The real body.

[camarojoe]

A real car with unoriginal drivetrain would have already sold months ago at the asking price of the car in question IMO. That should tell you something about what's really more important to most people.

[69LM1]

Cool Deal. Thanks for all of the info. I will suggest to him that he "comes clean" when selling the car and he may get a better response from the community, and may be able to actually sell it as a clone.

Rich