View Full Version : Does anyone agree with my view over at TC?
YenkoChevelle69
12-18-2005, 06:25 PM
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?p=787976#post787976
This guy over on Team Chevelle is taking a 70 malibu and stamping vins and making trim tags to pass it off as a "recreation" in his words. I think it's a load of BS and told him so. Anyone care to put in your 2 cents? He says he's not trying to pass it off as something it's not (LS6) but if he wasn't why is he stamping parts and replacing trim tags etc?
Rick H
12-18-2005, 07:16 PM
Can you explain what this means?
"The cowl tag reads 72 for the paint code, which is a dead ringer for determining an SS car for those of you who don't know."
"dead ring"
All I have read and seen are statements such as "could" and "probably" was an SS if it had the 72 code. I have not seen anything that states that is 100% true. Unless someone can produce written documentation (not hearsay) to this I would think that any 1969 Chevrolet such as a Camaro, Chevelle, Nova, could be painted code 72 no matter what the model.
Oh by the way. When you backhalfed your 69 with the four door sheetmetal to use GM sheetmetal as you stated you wanted to do, you did check to make sure that the date codes stamped in the metal matched close enough prior to the build date of the 2 door car?
He's clearly stating recreation and not hiding anything (at this time). If and when you sell your car you will disclose it was backhalfed, right?
Rick H.
YenkoChevelle69
12-18-2005, 07:25 PM
Sure I will disclose what was done. Why wouldn't I? No, I didn't look for any date codes on the sheet metal.
I still don't understand why this guy is stamping all of these parts with vins etc...
In 1969 Daytona Yellow and Monaco Oragne were SS only colors for Chevelle.
Charley Lillard
12-18-2005, 07:26 PM
A Friend bought a orange 6 cylinder 69 Camaro brand new. He sold it about 8 years ago.
Rat_Pack
12-18-2005, 07:38 PM
I have not been watching this post on Team Chevelle but I figured it wouldn't take long for someone else (I know of another car out there now) to do this exact same thing. He knows something that very few people know about code 72 and 76 when it comes to the Chevelles in 69 and he is going to exploit it. Since the Privacy Act was started doing title searches is next to impossible unless you know someone. That was the old fashioned way of tracking down the previous history of a vehicle, by finding previous owners and asking them what the car was when they had it. Whomever this uscrupulous person is on Team Chevelle, someone needs to try and get a vin number from him or even better, find out his real name and give it to the local authorities. All that has to be said is this guy is tampering with the vin's and trim tags. The local investigator into stolen cars here said that eventhough a trim tag does not contain the vin, it does contain information regarding what the car was originally and can in some instances be a crime to alter it. Case in point was a 70 LS5 Chevelle that turned out to be a rebody with a 72 Malibu shell. He said since that even if the trim tag was the only item changed, it could be considered fraud as the intent was to make something it wasn't. The administrator could do some investigating by getting his ip address and finding out what town he is in and report him that way. What a scum bag!!!!
Charlie, yes there are Hugger Orange & Daytona Yellow non-hi-po Camaros built in 1969 but there is a difference when it comes to the Chevelles as only the SS cars (COPO's esxcluded) were available with this color. You could special order, as with any GM car, a car with any color of paint that Dupont made at that time on a production vehicle whether GM, Ford, or Chrysler. However there are specific differences on the Chevelles pertaining to these two colors and I would prefer not to eloborate on them publicly.............RatPack...................... .I know of a 1969 Chevelle wagon that is a 350 4-spd and is Daytona Yellow..............
Rick H
12-18-2005, 08:08 PM
[ QUOTE ]
In 1969 Daytona Yellow and Monaco Oragne were SS only colors for Chevelle.
[/ QUOTE ]
As I stated before, show me written documentation NOT hearsay.
Rick H.
Rick H
12-18-2005, 08:12 PM
[ QUOTE ]
However there are specific differences on the Chevelles pertaining to these two colors and I would prefer not to eloborate on them publicly.............RatPack...................... .
[/ QUOTE ]
And just why not elaborate on them publicly?? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif Some sort of secret government conspiracy?? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif
Rick H.
Charley Lillard
12-18-2005, 08:34 PM
Just me spacing out...I was thinking Camaro..
Rick H
12-18-2005, 08:48 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I still don't understand why this guy is stamping all of these parts with vins etc...
[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, I went back and read his post and I read your claim and I looked at his website. You asked him on the other forum[ QUOTE ]
Wow 69396SS, whats up with all the number stamping you've got going on?
[/ QUOTE ]
I saw where he said the tranny is VIN correct but where is "all the number stamping" I didn't see anything but the tranny. You are insinuating more then what he is openly claiming and I can see how he would get a little hot with you.
Rick H.
Rat_Pack
12-18-2005, 09:17 PM
Rick, I too wonder now how this got started as I just read the post on TC and it looks like some of them have been deleted. I don't see any mention of the O & Y paint codes and I tend to agree with you as to why this guy got a little hot. There is something there that I am missing but if it is only about the trans then I don't see anything else wrong unless he does try to pass it off as original.
As for the paint codes, in the Chevelle line (others excluded) those colors were only available on the SS models in 69 without having to special order the paint color, that is why there are the other models of the Chevelles with those colors. (I have read you PM but I had already started this reply.) This is documented in all of the GM literature for the Chevelle that year. No conspiracy either, just don't need to give the counterfeiters any more information than they have, especially on a public forum http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif BTW, thanks for the info on the other car.............RatPack...........
YenkoChevelle69
12-18-2005, 09:31 PM
In his sig he talks about how he has a repop trim tag to match his car, then in one of his later posts he says his transmission that he just purchased is correct date coded and vin stamped.
He said he wants to car to be a "correct" LS6 (the car started life as a malibu) and so far he's stamped the trans, purchased a false trim tag.... Why wouldn't he do the rest.
[ QUOTE ]
Rick, I too wonder now how this got started as I just read the post on TC and it looks like some of them have been deleted. I don't see any mention of the O & Y paint codes and I tend to agree with you as to why this guy got a little hot. There is something there that I am missing but if it is only about the trans then I don't see anything else wrong unless he does try to pass it off as original.
[/ QUOTE ]
Rainer
12-18-2005, 09:46 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In 1969 Daytona Yellow and Monaco Oragne were SS only colors for Chevelle.
[/ QUOTE ]
As I stated before, show me written documentation NOT hearsay.
Rick H.
[/ QUOTE ]
Definitely not hearsay. This is from Colvin's by the numbers book, which he lifted directly from Chevrolet sales literature. See footnote b at the bottom:
http://www.shapeconsulting.com/cars/69trimcombos.jpg
Rick H
12-18-2005, 10:28 PM
Sorry but I don't read that to mean that the SS Chevelle cars were the only ones with orange and yellow. I read that to mean in order to get orange and yellow on an SS the only way was by special order. That's the way I interpret that to mean.
Now if that had said SS package only I would believe it.
The same coded Orange and Yellow were available on any Camaro model. I find it hard to believe that it was available on the Chevelle SS model only and no other Chevelle model.
Rick H.
This is by No means a secret,and is readily available info on any Chevrolet website worth it's salt.
On this,the 1969 Dealership Showroom Literature is Clear.
1969 Chevelle Sales Brochure.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v669/Rick_Peters/7paints0006.jpg
1969 Chevrolet Dealer Album.(These are Yellow & Orange Paint Chips)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v669/Rick_Peters/7paints0007.jpg
1969 Chevrolet Showroom 60"X40" Color & Fabric Board.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v669/Rick_Peters/7paints0003.jpg
Look at the Very Bottom Of same Board.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v669/Rick_Peters/7paints0005.jpg
Rick H
12-18-2005, 10:43 PM
Interesting. Now all I have to do is find that blankity blank picture I have of an original orange non SS Chevelle. Only been 25-30 years since I took it. Argggg.
Rick H.
YenkoChevelle69
12-18-2005, 10:47 PM
Mr70, thanks a bunch for posting those pictures! They make things a lot clearer.
Rainer
12-18-2005, 10:53 PM
Thanks, mr70. Is that enough evidence for you, Rick H? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif Are you going to offer up a picture you took as evidence to the contrary?
Rat_Pack
12-18-2005, 10:56 PM
Rick, find a picture of that trim tag, not the car as you are probably right about the color being orange. However, the trim tag is going to make this all come together for you.
BTW, YenkoChevelle69, what happened to your webpage? I went to look at it so I could see why everyone seemed to be a Nutcracker towards you (seasonal vocabulary http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif) today and it wasn't there. Did you remove it?.............RatPack...............
Mr70, thanks for posting those as I didn't want to have to dig mine out and take pictures.......... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif.............
Rick H
12-18-2005, 11:00 PM
Ok, I'll bow to the masses at the present time until I find that !@#$% picture. Continuing on..
[ QUOTE ]
He said he wants to car to be a "correct" LS6 (the car started life as a malibu) and so far he's stamped the trans, purchased a false trim tag.... Why wouldn't he do the rest.
[/ QUOTE ]
You are assuming without facts and he called you on it. He clearly states he is making a recreation. There is no reason to believe is passing the car off as an original. At least he is being truthful about it. That's more then can be said of the thousands of other so called original cars being pawned off these days.
After what was posted about your rebuilding techniques you must have some concerns about what you are doing because your website is no longer available for viewing.
How are we not to know that an original sheetmetal Orange L-78 Chevelle might not be coming on the market real soon???
Hmmm http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
Rick H.
YenkoChevelle69
12-18-2005, 11:00 PM
Forget it.
Supergas990
12-18-2005, 11:19 PM
Haven't we already thrashed this horse in another post? Well, maybe it wasn't this horse, but it was definitely a horse...
Blair
Rick H
12-18-2005, 11:22 PM
I guess it would be best if I answered your original post and call it a day.
"Does anyone agree with my view over at TC?"
No, I do not. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif
Rick H.
Racefan
12-19-2005, 07:44 AM
FWIW, I would agree that it is wrong to make a trim tag and place it in your car to make the tag match what you want the car to be. If you aren't trying to mislead, I can see no reason to alter the trim tag. Maybe you aren't trying to decieve, but someone down the line WILL be decieved and we'll have to hear about it. So, while I don't wish to get involved directly in any feud, I will voice my opinion that manufacturing a trim tag is WRONG. PERIOD. If someone has a reason that makes sense to any time that a reproduction (and custom made) trim tag would be appropriate....please enlighten me. On another similar post elsewhere, it was inferred that it was potentially questionable to make a duplicate trim tag LET ALONE A FAKE ONE. Why are there not more people stating thier feelings on this one?
SuperNovaSS
12-19-2005, 08:03 AM
I totally agree that restamping parts does nothing but deceive. If a person is going through all the trouble so someone will look at a pad stamping or trim tag and not question the car, it is deception, plain and simple. I didn't say anything earlier because I like to watch Rick H run his mouth. Maybe this will help add fuel to Ricks neverending fire. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Jason
Stuart Adams
12-19-2005, 08:08 AM
You know sometimes people loose sight of what this car hobby/love is all about. I love the cars for what they represent or represented back then, culture, art, fun, etc. Meeting great people along the way.
All these continuing talks about making trim tags, POP's etc. just muddy the waters and I get tired of swimming in the pool after while. So with that said I am afraid as hell of the IRS and the Law, and making something that is against the law to the level of VIN's, Trims, etc. for a car does not even enter my mind as an option. Even if making something for a car was close to being against the law or not cool I wouldn't do it. I would be worried that me or someone else would get in trouble over the car I "restored". There are many more things to be worried about to be adding that to the list. That is my final answer. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif
Tenney
12-19-2005, 08:20 AM
Monopoly money v. counterfeit cash. Making a car look like another car, or the one "you wished you had", is one thing. To each their own. Falsifying the numbers/data plates/ documents to make the car "become" the one "you wished you had" might be deemed forgery to some (the lawyer of the guy you sold the car to, for example).
Rick H
12-19-2005, 04:03 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I totally agree that restamping parts does nothing but deceive. If a person is going through all the trouble so someone will look at a pad stamping or trim tag and not question the car, it is deception, plain and simple. I didn't say anything earlier because I like to watch Rick H run his mouth. Maybe this will help add fuel to Ricks neverending fire. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Jason
[/ QUOTE ]
Tired of the never ending hypocrisy.
Rick H.
hep1966
12-19-2005, 04:39 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Tired of the never ending hypocrisy.
[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed
Xplantdad
12-19-2005, 04:41 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You know sometimes people loose sight of what this car hobby/love is all about. I love the cars for what they represent or represented back then, culture, art, fun, etc. Meeting great people along the way.
All these continuing talks about making trim tags, POP's etc. just muddy the waters and I get tired of swimming in the pool after while. So with that said I am afraid as hell of the IRS and the Law, and making something that is against the law to the level of VIN's, Trims, etc. for a car does not even enter my mind as an option. Even if making something for a car was close to being against the law or not cool I wouldn't do it. I would be worried that me or someone else would get in trouble over the car I "restored". There are many more things to be worried about to be adding that to the list. That is my final answer. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
That's it exactly, Stuart...I agree with you 100% http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
Johnny Horsepower
12-19-2005, 05:44 PM
The problem is 2 owners from now the car gets passed off as #s matching.
Making a car correct is fine. I see no need for forging vins. That is making a fake. Use all the right parts, but i disagree with trying to make it appear it is an original #s matching engine, tranny or rear end.
A side note, i discussed this before with a vette guy and complained of it being accepted in thier circles.
His response was that guys don't want to lose the points in Judging.....
That's like telling a proffessor "i cheated because i wanted an A"
can't condone vin or tag doctoring http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
John http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
You can no longer get a replacement trim tag through Bloomington or NCRS. You can get a replacement engine through both if it is prepared correctly. Kind of interesting that the engine can make it and the trim tag cannot.
allcamaro
12-19-2005, 06:18 PM
I think the book might be wrong, the feature car is a 69 Chevelle Daytona Yellow and its not a SS396.
COPO's are the exception.
The books talking ordinary RPO.
PeteLeathersac
12-19-2005, 06:43 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You can no longer get a replacement trim tag through Bloomington or NCRS. You can get a replacement engine through both if it is prepared correctly. Kind of interesting that the engine can make it and the trim tag cannot.
[/ QUOTE ]
When judged and accepted at Bloomington, are the non original 'prepared' engines presented and acknowledged as a re-creation or an original....or is it purposely not mentioned and the judges don't want to know so they can give their blessing on it if the job has been done "well enough"??? . If this last part is true, are you out of the running if you do admit it's not the 'real' original? ~ Pete
Enoch
12-19-2005, 09:42 PM
Tim, the reason trim tags get busted is because the repros can be told from original. Not all restamps can be proven.
If you disclose your engine as a restamp, the car is judged accordingly. Bloomington will "box" the car and it will not be eligible for Gold, NCRS will check to see if the casting dates, and casting numbers are correct and they will judge the broach, assembly stamp and VIN derivative for accuracy. If Typical Factory Production, it should receive all points.
Johnny Horsepower
12-20-2005, 06:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
If you disclose your engine as a restamp, the car is judged accordingly. Bloomington will "box" the car and it will not be eligible for Gold,
[/ QUOTE ]
Will the third seller down the line let it out of the "box" and into a anonymous auction as a"#s matching car"
It's not the guy doing it with honest intentions that worries me.......its the theif 2 transactions later
Hylton
12-20-2005, 06:51 PM
Some of you guys are going insane (Belair excluded naturally). Who cares if someone is trying to make a clone as real as possible? The guy is admitting it for crying out loud.
I have a question for you guys - if a car has been "back-halved", do you consider it to be a rebody?
http://members.roadfly.org/viv/AwJeezNotThisSheetAgain1.jpg
69hurstSC
12-21-2005, 05:31 AM
i only had a problem with the "rare" quote. no such thing as a rare clone.
Unreal
12-21-2005, 11:55 AM
Will the third seller down the line let it out of the "box" and into a anonymous auction as a"#s matching car"
Why do we focus on "protecting the potential buyer" and in the next breath, brag about the "great deal" we got from some uninformed seller.
Did anyone ever tell a seller, "No, man, your asking price for your grandfather's old Camaro is way too low. It's not just a Camaro, it's a numbers matching Yenko, worth at least $200,000 more than you are asking." No, we give him the $10,000 and take the car. We probably even try to negotiate the price down a couple of grand.
Hylton
12-21-2005, 06:10 PM
It's buyer beware. Always has been, always should be. How much responsibility does a buyer of a car have in the purchase? I think there are people who want no responsibility whatsoever when buying a collector car.
I have 2 undocumented cars and bought them because of my own inspection and research. All cars have a history and letter cars are rarely forgotten or untraceable. Someone in the town it came from will remember it.
We've all seen fake cars at BJ auctions. Is Craig Jackson ultimately responsible for selling it or is it the buyer for not doing his homework?
I would hope that people on this site would be smart enough to do their homework before opening their wallet. If you don't know enough, call someone who does.
Belair62
12-21-2005, 07:16 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Some of you guys are going insane (Belair excluded naturally).
[/ QUOTE ]
Heeeres Johnny !!!
Belairless on a Good Day..
http://www.onlinerock.com/clubs/siberiankiss/heres_johnny.jpg
Unreal
12-22-2005, 01:17 PM
Exactly my point, Hylton. Logically, the sense of fairness should extend to both buyer and seller. If it's only for the buyer, then it's probably not about fairness at all. We hear so much rhetoric about "protecting future buyers" when, in reality, I suspect it's more about "protecting current owners".
Johnny Horsepower
12-22-2005, 11:45 PM
ALL buyers should do due diligence. However , a well done restamp can fake out some pretty knowledgeable people. I always bring someone who knows more than me.
I am not trying to say tell a guy his documented Nickey car is worth more! that is not the point. This has nothing to do with price or even added options ........It is about faking an original motor. The point is creating a counterfeit car and passing it off as such down the line. if no one restamped motors, or they got in trouble for such behavior, we could look at stamps and say its matching or not. Instead, we say " well the vin is matching, but is it a restamp? How do the broach marks look? Is that the right Font?"
It would be nice to know that what you see and research is what you get.
Merry Christmas
PS Santa's sleigh...............is a restamp http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
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