Needing reassurance on purchase

[Grusum]

HI guys, I wish I knew about your forum just a few days ago, you see I just bought the 70 RS Z28 in question in the for sale forum. Please go there and either let me know i'm a big dummy or give me some words of comfort. Did I make a big mistake or not. Thanks,Gord

[Belair62]

[ QUOTE ]
There is nothing wrong with the tag on the car. VIN matches build date.

There are however some small items that are wrong. Alternator, water pump (could be a mistype), fan shroud, master cylinder, wrong shifter and knob, radio is wrong, should have slide on top for AM/FM selection, no rear bumper guards. Since there is no numbers for the carb and because the way the PCV hose is routed I would say it's not correct. Bunch of little incorrect items but the car looks good.
Missing smog would be expensive to correct. Wrong exhaust (but how many really have the correct exhaust).

You could pick on it for all the small stuff but the car is nice. It even has the correct and they look like the original fenders.

Rick H.


[/ QUOTE ]

Quite a few guys know their stuff here but this post seems to sum it up....even if there are a few things wrong its a very noce car...excellent colors and it doesn't look look like you paid way too much....get out there and wax it and have a good time...I don't think you made a mistake.

[Grusum]

When I read this from Rick H. last night I was relieved, but then he posts later that the partial vin on the stamp pad is missing numbers. Leading me (and everyone) to believe that it a re-stamp or worse. I don't want to sound like I,m sniveling but what are the chances that the car is num. matching legit. Or should I just resign myself to enjoying the car as it is and take my lumps. I know the trim tag is o.k. but more (or as as much) is #'s matching drive train.

[Belair62]

Crappy feeling not knowing if its a restamp but I would still be enjoying it...you should PM Rick or one of the others and get more info to hunt for from them.

[TDW]

Can you post a good close up pic of the engine stamp?

[Grusum]

I will post a pic if you can just tell me how.

[Grusum]

I looked in FAQ and I don't think my browser is compatible. I tried to cut/paste from my own files, but that didn't work. Maybe I could e-mail the pic to someone and they could post it for me.

[nrjulin]

email pictures to me at [email protected] and I'll post them.

[nrjulin]

Here is the stamping

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d82/nrjulin/stamp_pad.jpg

[Grusum]

Thanks for doing that for me

[70Z]

Is the vin supposed to be stamped there? The reason I ask is mine only has the CTB stamp on that pad.

Jack, Chuck, Rick, anyone????

[COPO]

How about the trans stamping for a comparison.

[TDW]

Tom...My 70 Z28 is a Ca car, April built. It has the VIN on the pad.

[Grusum]

Once I get the car home, I will check the bell housing flange as well as take a pencil rubbing off of the tranny for comparison( I just learned that trick from you guys )If I find a ground off spot on the rough casting our suspicions will be confirmed. But if the gang stamp lines up right I will feel alot better. Why would someone go through the trouble to restamp it and then not do it right??

[JOZW30]

Good question, I've got a 72 Olds W30 that has a replacement block, and it has only the last three digits of the VIN stamped UPSIDE DOWN on the pad!

Maybe a lazy dealer replacement? Most likely just some Dufus that didn't know better.......

Enjoy your new toy!

Joe

[Rick H]

I am not going to repost what I have already said about this car. I think the car is very nice and you should enjoy it. Fix the little stuff and have a blast. The car is very cool. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

Rick H.

[Grusum]

Well here it is. The car arrived on Thurs. night. I'm so disappointed that I'm close to inconsolable. The car is definitely a 3 dressed up as a 9. I'm so embarassed of myself, that's why I haven't posted til now. I can't believe I got hosed. You purists would laugh at it. So many things wrong I wouldn't know where to start. ALOT of money for a poorly finished car. I can't even go into my garage to look at it. Sure wish I'd had found you guys sooner. Willing to take a loss on her if anyone is interested. I just want it out of my garage.

[TDW]

Well Gordon, start out by letting us know what you found. Mabey it isn't as bad as you think. The pics didn't look too bad on ebay. Try not to be embarassed. If you don't know this stuff, you gotta learn sometime. It can be an exspensive learning process though. I bought a 70 Nova not too long ago. The guy that assembled it has no business working on ANYTHING mechanical.It is now a real nice car. Just time and money, anything can be made right.

[Grusum]

If I'm trying to sell it I should point out some of the positives, motor seems to run great, as lumpy as it should be, no smoke, etc. A-arms have aluminum spacers, correct sway bars (f & r), floor mounted gas pedal. Most of interior looks great. Basically all there just alot of real dumb fit and finish goof ups, like rear pass marker light in upside down (bevel on the bottom), radio doesn't work, paint thin in alot of places, doors repainted hastily, drivers door fits poorly especially to upper weatherstripping (which is very loose), drivers window very floppy, endura nose cracked (looks like it was repaired at some point with bondo), metal door edge guards weren't removed when painted, poor stripe finish (some tape edge seeps), quick undercoating job (alot came off in car wash) doesn't appear to be hiding anything though, a few bondo cracks on hood. Overall it has all the bits its just not nearly the way it should be for the price I paid. I was willing to pay good money for a car I could tinker with and fix the small stuff and end up with a really nice driver, but for what I paid, I feel I got hosed. I didn't pay good money for a car I would have to do a thorough going through.

Sorry......I'm just venting now.

[Grusum]

Hey, this venting bit is really theraputic! The more I talk about it,I'm actually getting a little pi$$ed off instead of just being depressed. I want to publicly thank you guys for your site and your personal comments, both are very insightful and informative. It's nice to correspond with people who know their stuff and who have probably been in my position at one time or another. For that I'll be sending a donation to help ensure this site will continue to educate and inform enthusiasts. Having a priceless resource at your finger tips is a reassuring feeling, knowing that you can bounce your opinions off the people "in the know", and you will get a dozen intelligent responses. Like the little guy with the sign says: YOU GUYS ROCK!! I would like to hear what anybody has to say about my options concerning my dilemma.

[Charley Lillard]

I can't remember which car you bought. Was it a Ebay car ? Item # ? Sorry it didn't work out. Have you contacted the seller ?

[BARN FIND]

[ QUOTE ]
I can't remember which car you bought. Was it a Ebay car ? Item # ? Sorry it didn't work out. Have you contacted the seller ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it was the yellow 70 RS Z from EBAY in Jan. Car looked nice in pics, and with the way prices are going on 2ND Gen Camaros right now the things that need fixed are probably worth doing. Of course I have not seen it in person so the paint problems he noted may be troublesome and finding a smog system may take some hunting...CAN I HAVE IT!

[Grusum]

Sorry 'bout that! I bought the Daytona Yellow 70 RS/Z28 that was originally listed on Ebay(bought it "off" Ebay however). It got alot of buzz a month ago in the "For Sale" forum.

Yes I have contacted the seller and he offered to help me out to find a new home for her by giving me contact info on other interested parties. So far though.......... nothing yet. Only been a couple of days though, and weekend and all. I just hope he doesn't mistake my good nature as a sign of weakness. He did seem genuinely concerned that I was upset. Time will tell though. Keep you posted.

I guess I was stupid to assume that if you pay 42K for a car at least the radio should work and the drivers door should close properly.

[Xplantdad]

Radios can be fixed for a couple of hundred bucks to work good as new...and the door closing properly can be as easy as new weatherstripping or latch adjustment (or not!)

The important thing is do you like the car? If you already have really bad feelings about it...get rid of it. Otherwise, fix the small stuff that's wrong with it and have a ton of fun with it. I must say that the car looks really nice http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Charley Lillard]

Did you win the auction on Ebay ? Have you left him feedback ? Can you post the Ebay item # ?

[BARN FIND]

[ QUOTE ]
Did you win the auction on Ebay ? Have you left him feedback ? Can you post the Ebay item # ?

[/ QUOTE ]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4604137057

[Grusum]

If you're serious, BARN FIND, send me a PM with your offer. Keep in mind though that I'm not just giving it away. It'll go to the offer closest to the one in my head. I'm already eating the costs I have put out to ship it, insurance, importing(broker fees), Canadian tax, etc. I can't take a complete bath on it, alright?

[BARN FIND]

Not to be a party pooper but...GRUSUM are you related to the Bain that these guys all have issues with?

[Grusum]

I'm not familiar with that at all. All my relatives are up here in Canada and none are car enthusiasts. So the answer is definitely no. I'm curious now though, What's the beef. Should I hunt him down for giving my family a bad name or what?

[Charley Lillard]

A quote from the auction "THIS 70 Z/28 HAS JUST COME OUT OF MANY YEARS OF STORAGE, IT WAS RESTORED SOME TIME AGO, THE CAR IS NOT A TOP SHOW CAR, BUT IS A DRIVER / LOCAL CRUISER. I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE IT VERY CLEAR FROM THE START,

I WILL DESCRIBE THIS CAR WITHOUT TYPING FOR DAYS AND WOULD LIKE A PROSPECTIVE BUYER TO INSPECT OR HIRE AN INSPECTION COMPANY TO EVALUATE THIS CAR PRIOR TO BIDDING.



THIS Z/28 IS 35 + YEARS OLD AND I DO NOT KNOW THE CARS ENTIRE HISTORY. HERE IN THE NORTH EAST THE ROADS ARE NOT SATISFACTORY AT THIS TIME “SALT AND ICE”. SO WE HAVE ONLY TEST DROVE THIS CAR AROUND OUR FACILITY."

[Charley Lillard]

We all have different visions of quality and from the auction pics the car looks nice. I do remember the issue of the vin stamping on the front pad. Stuff like the undercoating was clearly shown in the auction. Sorry you are not happy with it but I bet you now have a better idea of what questions to ask next time. It looks like you bought it after the auction also.

[MosportGreen66]

[ QUOTE ]
Not to be a party pooper but...GRUSUM are you related to the Bain that these guys all have issues with?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why even travel down that path?

I think Grusum is a little surprised at the Camaro he bought. I have never bought a car I have not personally inspected myself first. If necessary, I also will bring a professional restorer, judge or mechanic. When I bought my '66 Corvette Convertible original owner car, we brought a NCRS 300 level master Judge, when we bought the Z28, we brought my good friend who owns a restoration shop to ensure the metal was rust free and as described. It is hard to trust people these days when all these muscle cars do is increase in value, seemingly over night…

So you learned LESSON NUMBER ONE really well. Never buy a car without going to see it. Its like buying a new car. Would you spend $42k on a new BMW without driving it or going to the dealer? Absolutely not. The same should be said about classic car purchases as well. We even flew into Chicago to inspect my plane jane '70 Camaro that was viewed and inspected by a big time source from this website. You can NEVER be too careful. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[BARN FIND]

[/ QUOTE ]

CAN I HAVE IT!

[/ QUOTE ]

GRUSUM, this is a long running joke, when ever someone gets a new car we all try to be the first to ask "Can I have it" (for free).

[Grusum]

Yeah, I just felt that the undercoating shouldn't have fallen off the first trip to the car wash. Some aspects of the car are surely a very hasty "spiff up to flip" job. I just expected more for my money. Things like the exhaust manifolds, they just got a quick blast of grey for the pictures, there's even overspray on the orange of the head, other areas where filler was roughly sanded and recently painted (didn't remove door edge guards), etc.

[Grusum]

You got me Ray......for a while there I had my hopes up that you were serious. I must add that I did have some independant support to making me think the car was up to snuff. Out of the blue I phoned a guy in Fishkill, N. Y., to see if he knew anything about the car. I had talked to him about a car that he had up for sale quite a while ago and he was very honest and forthcoming with me, he even told me the he had for sale was a re-stamp without me asking. He said the seller was a friend and if he said it was legit than it was so. This was before I found you guys by the way. Also the seller told me that during the time period that my car sat at his place waiting for the shipper a guy came by and pestered them almost daily for them to contact me to sell to him for a profit. This was all positive reinforcement that I had bought the right car. Hope I get a call from him soon!

[Grusum]

OH yeah, I forgot to tell you, a credit card sized piece of bondo flew off the hood the minute I washed it too, right up front in the middle(not a very good first impression) .

[Grusum]

Dash extremely floppy, Instrumet/guage bezel broken. I might have to go out to the garage and look at it again, I know there's more. Then again, maybe I should shut up, I wouldn't make a very good salesman would I.

[Grusum]

Seriuosly though what's up with this other Bain guy. You've got me relly curious. Is he a pedophile or worse. Let me guess, he does repop tags. LOL

[Late BrakeU2]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey, this venting bit is really theraputic! The more I talk about it,I'm actually getting a little pi$$ed off instead of just being depressed. I want to publicly thank you guys for your site and your personal comments, both are very insightful and informative. It's nice to correspond with people who know their stuff and who have probably been in my position at one time or another. For that I'll be sending a donation to help ensure this site will continue to educate and inform enthusiasts. Having a priceless resource at your finger tips is a reassuring feeling, knowing that you can bounce your opinions off the people "in the know", and you will get a dozen intelligent responses. Like the little guy with the sign says: YOU GUYS ROCK!! I would like to hear what anybody has to say about my options concerning my dilemma.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gordon,
I feel a litle responsible as i'm the one that started the original thread concerning this car.I have been looking for a nice second gen for a few years,and when I came across this one I posted the auction here to see what other members thought of it.To me yellow with houndstooth is one of the coolest combo's on any camaro bar none-but my only concern,(other that zero paperwork)was the trim tag-not that it wasn't the real deal,but that it looked to have been off at one point.I made a toungue in cheek joke about rebody and Well,I recieved more than one PM asking what my problem was,including the then owner who is registered here,when all I was trying to do was get a read from more people as to what the impression was of the originality of the car.Had I known the seller was an SYC member or the car been posted in the for sale section here,I never would have addressed the car publically.

A few years ago I was high bidder on a 70 M22 RSZ and about a day before the auction ended I receieved an e/m from a moderator on the second gen site concering the car.He posted a link to the thread where it was being discussed and it was categorically proven to be a clone.I contacted the seller(who was a peace officer)and sent him a link to the thread where his car was being discussed.After he calmed down,he realized that he had been duped by the person that sold it to him years ago.I retracted my bid,(which he was amenable to),and he sold it to the second highest bidder who didn't care if it was real or not(this was back when nice second gens were still in the mid teens).The point being is I was indebted to the member from that forum who took the time to hip my dumb azz that I was going to get soaked on a clone,(which your car is not)Sounds like it is mechanically sound,if you decide to keep the car and put another 10k into paint I dont think you will be upside down a the rate these are appreciating,especially with that color combo.JHMO http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Rick H]

I have just reviewed the auction again and I have to tell you the car looks pretty darn good in the pictures. I wouldn't be to concerned about fit and finish because he clearing stated it wasn't a show car and needed some work.

I would hope you did your homework before you bought the car and realized what was wrong or missing on the car. From what I see anything wrong or missing can be found and corrected. For example I mentioned way on that the radio was incorrect so it needs to be relaced anyways.

If you were looking for a correct vehicle and had any reservations, spending a few bucks to have someone check out the car would have saved you the aggrevation you are now experiencing.

In my opinion the car has great potential. Great color combo, with correct motor/tranny/rear, RS option, etc.. In the long run I don't see you losing on this. Start looking for the correct parts, correct them and have fun.

Rick H.

[Grusum]

I agree totally, the car looks great in the pics, that's why I bought it. The pics just don't show any of the problems, unfortunately. And yes, in hindsight, an inspection would have been a good plan. Seller told me that an extensive inspection was done and ( don't remember the exact wording he used)but no issues were found. I guess it depends on who inspects it, as learned in other posts.

[SilverLS6]

Re: Needing reassurance on purchase

Not that it helps you in any way now but if that's the place I think it is (seller) it's only about ten miles from me. I stopped there a few years ago and the cars in stock were pretty rough. Let's just say the description didn't line up with the actual condition in my opinion. This car does look really good in the pictures. The seller did a fair job of describing it and even stated an inspection was advised. It's all subjective and you were hoping for the best possible condition and got way less. He obviously tried to make it sound as attractive as possible. Bottom line is don't buy a car without looking at it yourself or having a trusted person do it for you especially when you're laying out that kind of cash. If it does have all the original major components you probably paid too much but might want to give it some time, cool off about it and then start making it the car you had hoped it would be. They are only going up in value and you should break even or come out ahead at some point down the road. You'd probably lose about $10K unloading it now. You may be able to sort it out for that.

[Grusum]

Thats what I like about this site, lots of differing opinions to make an informed decision. Sounds like very good advice. Cool off before making any rash, emotional decisions. Thanks.

[70-SS/RS-L78]

Gordon I think you paid a little too much for the car you are describing but it is Done, Put together a list of
problems And hope that it does not need a lot of parts$$. If it is mostly time and things you can do yourself
I think you will be OK, The car is going to increase in value as long as you own it and you will not get hurt
When you sell it in the future. A numbers Matching #1 condition 70 Z/28 with that color combination for 40
would have been a steal in today’s market. If you are not very mechanically gifted and just plain don’t like
to work on your cars I would just drive it or sell it. If you do enjoy getting dirty once in a while; Get to work.
That will be one Seriously Kool Car that will be worth much more then what you paid for it when you are
finished. If you are Dead Set on selling the car email me,

[Ohio427]

Grusum, I know that this won't make you feel any better but I did the same thing a couple of years ago. I purchased a 68 Camaro from someone in Utah. Not only did the pictures make it look great, he sent me a video of the car including the sound of it running. After receiving the Camaro, it was obvious that his idea of a perfect interior and mine were different. They were things that could be fixed but I felt it was misrepresented. It was a two speed racing powerglide which didn't have a first gear. He refuted the claim. He said it was working ok before it was shipped. What I learned after this experiance is I would wait as long as it took to find one locally, which I did. My wife and family (all grown children) thought that the car was really nice and that I was nuts. Maybe I was a little picky but I sold the car 2 weeks later taking a $4000 loss including the price of shipping. I eventually found one that I was happy with and look back at my internet buy as a learning experiance. Good luck to you.

[Grusum]

Don't get me wrong, I was'nt expecting a concours show winner. For the money, I was expecting an older nicely retored driver that had most all the things it should have. I 'm not interested in having a trailer queen now or in the future. I was expecting a driver that I could tinker with over the next few years, but still have it show well in the meantime. Already had a list to address some of the things like air cleaner, fan shroud, dash fitment, rear bumper guards, etc. Was looking forward to it immensely. What I got is a car in need of alot of work to just make the doors close properly, needs paint job(looks good in pictures, but some very questionable work was done). Makes me shudder to think what I'd find if I did decide to dig a little deeper. I'm not exagerating, the way things were done it was obvious someone slapped some shoddy work on it just to flip it. I don't think it was the guy I bought it off of either, he was probably glad to get rid of it while it still looked good. Having it go over 2500 miles away probably didn't hurt either. There may still be some issues whether it's also a true Z or not. More to come later on that

[Grusum]

If I could get out of this by only losing 4-5K I'd be ecstatic. Lesson learned........could get onto finding the car I want, with alot more knowledge and understanding that there are people out there who aren't on the up and up. Call me a trusting, good natured small town boy, but I guess that's what I am.

[Jim Ferron]

The seller is on the other end of the state from me...I've talked to him and his son a couple times. I've also looked at some of their stuff at Carlisle. I've seen some nice stuff and some not so nice. I've never seen anything that wasn't pretty close to the way they called it but even with that said...and with apology's to all car dealers out there, [and I'm one of 'em] These guys survive on the bigger 'fool' theory..[no insult intended, we've ALL been there]

That whole auction was a series of disclaimers and red flags....Yeah it was detailed nicely but the quality or lack thereof was there to be seen...if only one would look.

[Grusum]

Yeah, I know what you I mean. I guess I was way too over anxious, I thought the red flags thet were being thrown up in the description only made it more legit. He put it right out there , meaning (to me anyways) that it would stand up to scrutiny, if you know what I mean. I'd just had too many other cars eluding me by the smallest of margins (missed my dream car by about 12 hrs.)

[KENNY_PASCOE]

AFTER FOLLOWING THE PREVIOUS 5 PAGES OF THIS THREAD, I CAN APRRECIATE EVERYONES INPUT WEATHER IT IS GOOD OR BAD. I'VE READ THE AUCTION DESCRIPTION NUMEROUS TIMES AND THE SELLER MADE NO CLAIMS THAT THIS WAS A SHOW CAR OR #1 CAR. I DONT SEE ANYWHERE IN THIS AD THAT ANYONE COULD FORM THE OPINION THAT IT WAS. GRUSUM, YOU BOUGHT A REAL DAYTONA YELLOW / HOUNDSTOOTH 70 RS Z/28, IF THIS WAS A #1 CAR I WOULD BE EXPECTING TO PAY NORTH OF $50K +. SOUNDS TO ME THAT ANY IMPROVEMENTS YOU MAKE TO THIS CAR WILL ESCALATE THE QUALITY AND VALUE OF THE CAR. JUST MY .02 CENTS.... KP

[Grusum]

Believe me Kenny this is no #1 car nor was I expecting it to be. For the price and amount of interest in the car, I just expected not to find some of the things I did. Just plain shoddy workmanship, just obvious lack of attention as to how things were assembled, etc. The drivers door won't close with the window up, new weathersripping improperly installed, poor fit on the bumpers, non working radio, floppy side window, floppy dash. I could go on and on. I expected to touch this baby up for the price I paid, not have to strip her down and start from scratch. If this is what I'm finding now I can't imagine what'll be found a little deeper. The blatant lack of concern for these cheap simple little things leads me to believe it's probably more sinister the further you delve into it.

[Grusum]

All this speculation is also assuming that it is a true Z. The jury is still out on this one. If its not even really a Z then I feel it's a case of fraud. If it turns out not to be a Z then we're looking at a very mediocre 18-20K car. I'm working on verifying this. What do you guys think.

[Charley Lillard]

As bad as the resto and engine stamping is I doubt if the guy faking the Z would know to mount the gas pedal on the floor.

[Grusum]

Thats the frustrating part. Why would they waste the time and effort to do just a half-a$$ed car. When alot of the things are right, why cheap out on the easiest things to fix. If he went to the trouble to re-stamp it why not at least do it right, or even half right on some other things( not hard to do at the time, but a big undertaking now ) . More investigation soon to come most notably in the rear sway bar mount. I'll let you know.

[Jim Ferron]

Well I've just recieved a PM from the seller who has taken my 'bigger fool' comment as an insult. He tells me he wants to meet up with me at Carlisle.
Well first off, I was more or less defending the seller or at least so I thought, my comment was aimed at most car dealers in general which BTW I am a car dealer too so I guess I'm allowed the swipe...

Funny how the seller found time to comment to me in a PM but hasn't had the balls to comment in this thread...yet.

It really is a funny world. I should have kept my mouth shut.

[Belair62]

It was actually a pretty honest post Jim...who was the seller here ??? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[69HURST]

YES, MAYBE YOU SHOULD, I DONT NEED ANY HELP DEFENDING MYSELF. AS FAR AS BALLS GO, I HAVE SPOKEN TO GORD ON FRIDAY, HE OUTLINED HIS CONCERNS, WE HAD A FRIENDLY CONVERSATION, HE WENT ON TO SAY HE TAKES RESPONSIBILITY FOR WAIVING HIS RIGHT TO A PERSONAL OR 3RD PARTY INSPECTION.AND DOES NOT PUT ANY BLAME FOR HIS DISAPPOINTMENT ON ME. IF YOU CANT READ OR CHOOSE NOT TO FULLY UNDERSTAND THE TERMS OUTLINED IN THE AD FOR THIS CAR THEN AT LEAST UNDERSTAND THIS BUYER WAS GIVEN EVERY OPPORTUNITY TO MAKE SURE THIS CAR WAS RIGHT FOR HIM.

GORD, IM NOT SURE WHO YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT WHEN YOU SAID "Why would they waste the time and effort to do just a half-a$$ed car" AND "If he went to the trouble to re-stamp it " WHO ARE YOU RE FURRING TO?

ALSO I TOLD YOU ON FRIDAY WHEN YOU CALLED THAT A GENTLEMAN FROM GEORGIA CALLED ME MANY TIMES AFTER YOU COMPLETED THE PURCHASE OF THE CAR. HE WANTED THE CAR IF YOU DIDNT COME THROUGH. ALSO ON FRIDAY I INFORMED YOU AN INSPECTION WAS DONE FOR THE BUYER OF THE FIRST AUCTION BUT I WAS NOT GIVEN THE REPORT SINCE I WAS NOT THE CUSTOMER.

I DONT PLAN ON RESPONDING TO EVERY COMMENT MADE ON THIS THREAD. MY AD WAS VERY CLEAR, I WANTED THE BUYER TO EVALUATE AND DECIDE BY MEANS OF INSPECTION WHAT THE CAR IS WORTH TO HIM, THE CAR WAS ADVERTISED AS A DRIVER,

GORD YOU WROTE "He put it right out there , meaning (to me anyways) that it would stand up to scrutiny"

"THIS 70 Z/28 HAS JUST COME OUT OF MANY YEARS OF STORAGE, IT WAS RESTORED SOME TIME AGO, THE CAR IS NOT A TOP SHOW CAR, BUT IS A DRIVER / LOCAL CRUISER. I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE IT VERY CLEAR FROM THE START,
I WILL DESCRIBE THIS CAR WITHOUT TYPING FOR DAYS AND WOULD LIKE A PROSPECTIVE BUYER TO INSPECT OR HIRE AN INSPECTION COMPANY TO EVALUATE THIS CAR PRIOR TO BIDDING. """

WHAT PART OF THIS STATEMENT IMPLIES THE CAR CAN STAND UP TO SCRUTINY ??

I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO SAY THAT WHAT A CAR IS WORTH DIFFERS FROM ONE BUYER TO ANOTHER, IF A GUY HAD ONE AS A FIRST CAR OR GOT MARRIED IN A PARTICULAR CAR HE MAY PAY WAY MORE THAN WE THINK ITS WORTH. SM

[Grusum]

Scott, The "people" I am referring to are the people who actually did the work to the car, whomever they may be. I don't think that you had the car long enough to do much more than detailing and preparing it for re-sale.

By openly offering for people to have the car independantly inspected, as well as bringing attention to the trim tag, that only more reinforced to me that the car was legit. It's like War or Poker: Showing Weakness=Strength
Showing Strength=Weakness
If you offer something like that, it meant to me that it would obviously pass the test or why else would you bring it up. Hope this clears it up for you. By the way I'm still hoping you can find me that guy who wants the car so bad.

[Grusum]

HEY Scott, better yet, take the car back! I'll ship it, and I'll eat all of my expenses thus far,and we'll all chalk it up to a learning experience.
That is if you are confident you could sell it , you obviously have better contacts and resources than I do.

[Benny Arena]

As someone who flew all over the USA ,and Canada for that matter, to look for a 70Z28, I can understand you being frustrated here. I spoke with many people and got many pictures of cars and flew out on "trust me you see it you'll buy it" only to see real junk when I arrived there. Pictures only show so much as we see here. I think the car is a real Z28 and it is a shame what happened here. But when spending all the money for these cars you have to go look, in the long run its cheaper. If you can get past your first feelings about the car and have the time and funds to fix it-it can turn out to be a real nice car. Good luck in what ever you chose.

[mulsane71z]

[ QUOTE ]
HEY Scott, better yet, take the car back! I'll ship it, and I'll eat all of my expenses thus far,and we'll all chalk it up to a learning experience.
That is if you are confident you could sell it , you obviously have better contacts and resources than I do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds fair, especially seeing he has a buyer in Georgia...... Sorry about your luck......

Could you tell us more on the issue with being a "real Z" or not??????

[Grusum]

Coming soon,....... I just got off a stretch of 12hr night shifts, and need to get some Z's (NO PUN INTENDED!) Plus the weather here seems to be crapping out on us lately and I don't have any heat in my garage. Stay tuned folks....

[COPO427]

Gord, if the door weatherstrips are new then the doors will not shut easily with the windows up. I replaced mine in '85 with new GM strips and they are still tight even after adjusting the glass fuzzies etc.

[Grusum]

Yes they are new.....or reasonably so.....but not even close to being installed correctly. That's my point a complete half a$$ed effort everywhere you look. Have to slam dr. door and when you do the glass slips up over the drip rail molding. It's just easier to leave the window down a bit, even then you have to give er a good shove. By comparison though the pass. door is almost a perfect fit. Still bugs the hell out of me though that they didn't put all the fasteners on the door trim. Also didn't remove the stainless door edge trim before over-painting the doors. Window flops around like a fish, at least 3in of flop.

[Charley Lillard]

69Hurst...Thanks for responding. I think most of us here think your auction did a decent job of making it clear that this was no show car. But in your auction you also stated "ORIGINAL MATCHING ENGINE" . From the engine pad pic posted earlier in this thread it is obvious that someone other than GM stamped that vin on the engine pad. That does have a effect on the value of this car. Maybe you could refund him something in consideration of the engine being wrong.

[69HURST]

CHARLIE, DID YOU READ THE LINE THAT SAID ?

"IT WILL BE UP TO THE BUYER TO EVALUATE AND DECIDE IF THIS CAR IS AS AUTHENTIC AS WE THINK IT IS"... ALSO WERE YOU IN THE NORWOOD PLANT IN MAY OF 1970? I DIDNT THINK SO,,, I PUT UP GREAT PICS OF THE TRIM TAG AND BLOCK STAMP, NOT TO MENTION A PIC OF THE TRANS, THE TRANS HAS THE VIN AND DATE OF 5/06, THE ENGINE STAMP HAS 5/09, CHARLIE YOU CANT DETERMINE WHEN THE VIN WAS STAMPED ON THIS PAD, I BELIEVE THE ENGINE WAS BORN IN THIS CAR. THAT IS MY OPINION, I ALSO WASNT IN NORWOOD IN 1970. I MADE IT CLEAR THAT A PROSPECTIVE BUY WILL HAVE TO DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES. I LIKE HOW YOU DETERMINE THAT I OWE A REFUND. ALL $'S ARE BETWEEN GORD AND I, NOT YENKO.COM AND I. KNOWONE PUT A GUN TO THIS GUYS HEAD, HE CALLED US AND MADE A GOOD OFFER. HE HAD 7 DAYS OF AUCTION TO HIRE AN INSPECTION COMPANY OR FIND SOMEONE OR FLY IN TO BOSTON HIMSELF. HE DESIDED TO FORWARD A DEPOSIT AND HAVE ME END THE AUCTION EARLY. SM



CHARLIE, DID YOU READ THE LINE THAT SAID ?

[69HURST]

BUY THE WAY CHARLY, HOWS YOUR RESTAMPED L89?

[Charley Lillard]

Still restamped and I got about the same lame answer you gave. Do us all a favor and press the CAPS LOCK button on your keyboard.

[69HURST]

IM SURE YOU INSPECTED A CAR THAT MAGNITUDE PRIOR TO PURCHASE RIGHT? CANT SEEM TO FIND THAT BUTTON YOUR TALKING ABOUT.

[Charley Lillard]

Nope... I went on the dealers word. I buy many cars sight unseen based upon someones word. I try to deal with people that stand behind what they sell and it usually works out great. As I recall, the vin on the Z28 in question is supposed to be down by the oil filter. Maybe Grusum can now check down there for a vin.

[69HURST]

YOU MAY ALSO RECALL THAT A FEW MEMBERS THAT HAVE 70 Z'S HAVE THE VIN ON TOP, OTHERS HAVE THE VIN DOWN LOW, THEY WENT BOTH WAYS. SM

[Rainer]

[ QUOTE ]
... ALSO WERE YOU IN THE NORWOOD PLANT IN MAY OF 1970? I DIDNT THINK SO,,,

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, Charlie wasn't at Norwood back then. But what's great is we've got some members here who worked for GM back in the day and who have been able to tell us about the VIN-stamping process. And from what we've learned the stamping on that Z doesn't pass muster. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

[Stuart Adams]

Putting all the stuff in the add about have it inspected, etc. does not release your liability for representing the car. If you state facts about the car, they are your facts and that is the problem. If you state original engine then if it's not, you are responsible. If you said it might be then that is another story. Make the new owner a concession of some bucks and both learn and move on, IMO. Credibility matters most, can't get it back when gone. Do the right thing, trust me if these guys say the stamp is bogus it is.

[Chevy454]

http://www.yenko.net/attachments/108887-capslock.JPG

[SilverLS6]

The VIN stamping on that motor appears suspect based on other known originals. From what I can see of the engine code it looks OK? The date is also in line with other dates. There is glare in the picture so it's hard to tell. I can say my May 1970 Norwood Camaro, although a big block and not a Z, has the VIN down by the oil filter and not on the pad.

Here's a theory - You can prove it if you find the VIN by the oil filter. Who ever did the shabby resto didn't really know what was right. They thought they had an unstamped motor and stamped the VIN on the pad because they heard that's how it was supposed to be. If that proves to be true you have a restamped original engine. How strange would that be? If there is no VIN by the oil filter or another VIN... well, I guess we'll just have to wait and see what you find.

[69HURST]

YOU OBVIOUSLY DIDNT READ MY AD OR THE TERMS. WHEN LOOKING AT A CAR YOU FORM YOUR OWN OPINION. OPINIONS DIFFER..

[SS4Real]

Why not simply do the right thing by returning the car and refunding the guys money? Buyer eats shipping both ways and learns a lesson. Seller mentions he has another buyer and life goes on.

[Chevy454]

69HURST: see my post above, and take a hint...

[Stuart Adams]

Tell me what part of "Original Matching Engine" I don't understand?

[69HURST]

I BELIEVE THE MOTOR IS CORRECT FOR THIS CAR. I AM NOT ASKING YOU OR ANYONE ELSE TO AGREE OR DISAGREE. I PRESENTED AN OFFER TO THE BUYER FROM ANOTHER BIDDER, HE DECLINED.

[Stuart Adams]

BIG difference between correct motor , i.e. correct dated motor but not original and "original Matching engine."

[Chevy454]

69hurst...check your private messages.

[SmallHurst]

Just so everyone knows up front, I am in no way related to this walking, talking JACKA**!

[Chevy454]

HA! I *might* vouch for you, Rusty! LOL!!

What happened on the phone the other day? It's like it just faded to black, so I kept trying to call back, and it's like the whole thing was froze up? Then I finally got through, but it was your friggin voicemail?? Maybe some Hillbilly running the show at the cell phone place again??!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Canucklehead]

I would keep the car and fix the issues, the way the market is going you won't lose. Anytime i ever bought a car i always figured to spend a few thousand on it as it is never what you expect. There is always an issue with it somewhere. Although it sounds like more than a few in your case, but it seems you bought a potentially nice car.

[CamarosRus]

Charley, You're showing more restraint than I'm capable of. MR 69 HURST has stated his position, and now I find him just plain arrogant. His CAP LOCK B.S.is just plain disrespectful to everyone here (Still dont know why K.P. gets away it).....and he deserves a "time-out"
I am one of the 2nd Gen Legends Judges for the ACA Camaro Nationals at Carlisle. I have also been an expert witness in a Tacoma,WA court case, where a man bought a clone 70 Z-28, sold as real......never have claimed to know it all, however 70 Camaros are of a special interest to me.
All the 70 Norwood Z-28's I've inspected had there VIN #'s stamped on lower rear left bellhousing flange (see pic example below) staring with 10N5XXXXX. The block in question may or may not have a real VIN in that location, but VIN on deck has been added !!!!!!!!
L.A. Z-28's generally had there VIN's stamped on the deck.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/CamarosRus/Camaro%201970%20Resto%20Details/Vin3.jpg

[Stuart Adams]

I agree, Charley needs to release those velcro straps on his shoes once in a while and kick some boot.

[Xplantdad]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[69HURST]

I hope this helps, sorry about the caps, I never relied on the block vin stamp to form my opinion of the originality of this block, I realize it should have 2 additional numerals. If i was trying to hide or fool someone i would not have included a photo of the vin. There may very well be a vin stamp down below, I couldnt see one. I dont think anyone can say for certain that this motor did not come in this car. you can say all you want about the stamp being suspect. I agree the vin stamp is suspect. What i cant answer is who put it there. sm

[kwhizz]

[ QUOTE ]
I hope this helps, sorry about the caps, I never relied on the block vin stamp to form my opinion of the originality of this block, I realize it should have 2 additional numerals. If i was trying to hide or fool someone i would not have included a photo of the vin. There may very well be a vin stamp down below, I couldnt see one. I dont think anyone can say for certain that this motor did not come in this car. you can say all you want about the stamp being suspect. I agree the vin stamp is suspect. What i cant answer is who put it there. sm

[/ QUOTE ]

Lawyereze..........Nuf Said!!!

Ken

[musclecarjohn]

As an owner of my '70 Z since 1979 and having inspected many '70-'73 Z/28's,it didn't take me long to see something was seriously wrong with RS Endura nose on this car...that one's about as cobbled up as any I've ever seen.Obviously full of filler...makes one wonder about the rest of the car... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

That would have thrown up a red flag for me...the moment I saw the internet picture.

[Late BrakeU2]

[ QUOTE ]
YOU OBVIOUSLY DIDNT READ MY AD OR THE TERMS. WHEN LOOKING AT A CAR YOU FORM YOUR OWN OPINION. OPINIONS DIFFER..

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
paint thin in alot of places, doors repainted hastily, drivers door fits poorly especially to upper weatherstripping (which is very loose), drivers window very floppy, endura nose cracked (looks like it was repaired at some point with bondo), metal door edge guards weren't removed when painted, poor stripe finish (some tape edge seeps), quick undercoating job (alot came off in car wash) doesn't appear to be hiding anything though, a few bondo cracks on hood. Overall it has all the bits its just not nearly the way it should be for the price I paid. I was willing to pay good money for a car I could tinker with and fix the small stuff and end up with a really nice driver, but for what I paid, I feel I got hosed. I didn't pay good money for a car I would have to do a thorough going through.

"THE BODY OF THIS Z/28 IS VERY NICE AND STRAIGHT, THE CAR HAS VERY NICE LINES, THE DOORS OPEN AND SHUT WITH EASE. THE PAINT IS IN VERY GOOD CONDITION, IT SHINES AS IF PAINTED LAST WEEK,"



http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gifSounds like two different opinions(and cars)being described.

Silk purse or sow's ear? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[Jacsey 70Z]

I think if this is not the original block they sure found a perfect block to put in. What I'm saying is the dates fit perfect for the car, and I think if you look on the oil filter flange it may make you feel better. I alway said a 70Z with the VIN on the pad is worth taking a second look at because i don't think it happened at the factory. But everyone thinks all correct engines should have it or else people will question the car, so they were added when they got a chance. Some did a better job then others, this guy did a lousy job like it was done in the car with the head on and free hand.
So like someone said you my have the original engine with a added VIN on the pad. If so I think you have a nice car with a lot of potential and a Great color and options you just paid to much.

[LexDawg]

Gentlemen, Obviously there is room for blame on both sides of the issue. I hope everyone reading this thread who is new to the hobby realizes the importance of examining a car first hand before buying. If you are spending an amount of money that makes you the least bit uncomfortable, then for petes sakes go look at the car wherever it may be. What makes you uncomfortable has more to do with the value of the car as opposed to a buyers financial situation. (Although I'm sure certain people buy six and seven figure cars without looking at them and don't think twice) My rule of thumb is to research the value of the car through various sources and reach an educated opinion of the REAL value to me. If I'm going to pay that number or more I always go look. Otherwise I may simply buy based on photos knowing I'm getting a real steal and there might be some hidden problems. The problem I see here is the attitude of the seller when confronted with the issue. If the seller had a different demeanor with regards to the complaints I think the responses would be less harsh. The seller needs to consider that he may be "burning bridges" with folks who might be potential buyers when he jumps on a respected member of the hobby ,and this site ,like Charley. By the way Ken that doesn't sound like lawyereze. If the seller had spoken with an attorney, I'm sure he would have been advised to make no statements regarding his belief that the vin stamp is suspect. An admission that is patently ommitted from the original desc. on e-bay. It is one thing to honestly be in the dark about an issue and quite another to have suspicion about an issue and fail to disclose the same. Hope that wasn't too much lawyereze. Mitch

[69HURST]

Not for nothing, "failure to disclose" the picture of the vin stamp is plain as day, the description shows the vin as it is stamped. how did i fail to disclose? sm

[70Z]

69Hurst, some of these guys have given you really good advice that would allow you to come away from this looking like a real standup guy and yet you just keep plugging along trying to justify your position. Why? Don't you see your just making yourself out to be the bad guy? There have been over 2600 views of this thread. Talk about free advertising! Come on man, work this thing out and at least walk away with your reputation in tact even if it cost you a few bucks. It's the classy thing to do.

[69HURST]

As i said early in this thread, the buyer and i had a conversation on friday, we have not spoken since. I have read many posts concerning the stamp none of witch has been a concern from the buyer to me. Some talk about giving a few bucks back. It is up to the buyer and the seller to work that out isnt it? Here is the first post that gord made on this site.

I just bought this car officially on tues. You can imagine how shocked I was when a friend of mine sent me this link. When I saw it was my new car being questioned I nearly puked!!! Until I saw the forum I was completely happy with my new baby. I have been looking for about 1 1/2 years for the right car and it always seemed to elude me. Some just plain went for too much or the one I really wanted at Legendary Motorcar in June I missed by 24 hrs. because I waited to phone them instead of E-mailing them immediately.To make a long story short, I thought I missed this one as well when it first went off e-bay. When my wife found it relisted I took it as fate. I jumped on this one. To my novice knowledge I was satisfied everything was proper. I once vowed to not buy w/o docs but somehow I felt secure with this one. Documentation always seemed to put the price up just out of my reach. BUYER BEWARE!!! No one but myself to blame for my now bleeding ulcer and baggy eyes. I want to make it clear I don not blame the seller in any way. I think some of you know who he is and I want to make it clear, every option was put before me to verify things and I opted for blind faith. Is there anyone who can share some insight to how big a mistake I've made or not made. Regardless, I intend to enjoy this car to the fullest. It's only money right! I can drive this puppy without fear of depreiciation. I intend on using AAAuto Transport to get it here. Cheapest, and most helpfull out of 40 phone calls. Any Red FLAGS on this decision? Hope to get more sleep tonight. Thanks, Gord

I will try to work it out with gord for a positive outcome. sm

[70Z]

[ QUOTE ]
I will try to work it out with gord for a positive outcome. sm

[/ QUOTE ]

That sounds like a great idea http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[kwhizz]

By the way Ken that doesn't sound like lawyereze. If the seller had spoken with an attorney, I'm sure he would have been advised to make no statements regarding his belief that the vin stamp is suspect. An admission that is patently ommitted from the original desc. on e-bay. It is one thing to honestly be in the dark about an issue and quite another to have suspicion about an issue and fail to disclose the same. Hope that wasn't too much lawyereze. Mitch

[/ QUOTE ] http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

Yawn!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ken

[Grusum]

Hey guys lets all take a deep breath here!!!!!! This has gotten a little out of control. I have just gotten off the phone with the seller, he's always treated me in the most forthcoming manner, with respect, and honesty. I will concede that I was not the most educated buyer when I bought the car and am still learning today. Ultimately, I was the one who bought the car, if I had been a better educated buyer at the time, I may not have. Regardless, it's my responsibility. The seller and I are taking steps to work this issue out. He has taken some harsh criticism here and for that I am sorry. That was not my intent. I was using this site to educate myself, not to bash the seller!!! He talked to me and is treating me with the utmost respect, and deserves the same in return. I need to clear some issues up that have been raised, so the onus is on me to do so, I will get to this as soon as I can. Lets all take a collective deep breath and stop jumping to conclusions, O.K.

[scott s]

Iam sure we have all taken our lumps in what ever deals we have done cars,houses, whatever etc??But somewhere sometime we must all grow up and take responsibility for our actions because someone won,t always be there to hold our hands if it dosen,t go our way.Its taken years of car collecting and hard lessons to gather the knowledge that i personally and most of the board members here have and we still have lots to learn,imho if the seller wants to kick some money back to the buyer he,s a hero in my eyes..... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Stuart Adams]

Good, then the posts accomplished the goal. Cool.

[Jeff H]

Have you checked for the partial VIN down by the oil filter flange? That's the first thing I would be doing, check to see if it truly is the original motor. That will make a big difference in value and could help you decide if you want to keep the car or not. The car is a great color combination and the original motor will help even more.

[Grusum]

I am going right now to try and see whats there. Should I also find a partial vin behind the heater core on this year camaro?

[Belair62]

Here is my take on a situation like this...Grusum...when the car got there it was not what you expected. I have bought cars sight unseen and they are never what we envision.Work something out with the seller. If it's a real 70 Z in Daytona yellow you have a very cool car. Play with it...work on it...put money in it...enjoy it...down the road you will be glad you did.

[Grusum]

I took the blower motor off..........no numbers on that flange. Checked for the partial vin above oil filter....nothing there either. Tried to take heater core box off but was unsuccessful, broke a couple of studs and quit while I was ahead.

[CamarosRus]

Point of Information Regarding Norwood VIN location......I bought my current 70 Norwood Z-28 in 1978. I will tell you that I found my VIN stamped on the left side of block in the area between the two soft plugs. I can't explain why or how, but it is true.
I dont have picture at this time, but with enough doubters I will do so......

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
I took the blower motor off..........no numbers on that flange. Checked for the partial vin above oil filter....nothing there either. Tried to take heater core box off but was unsuccessful, broke a couple of studs and quit while I was ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is a photo of my 72 T/A (with a/c). It actually has the VIN stamped in two spots, the traditional a/c equipped location, vertically, to the left of the heater box opening, and in the non-a/c location: horizontally under the circular fan motor hole. It is very hard to get to these spots: you have to remove your heater box to do so, which can also require removing the pass side inner fender to access all of the studs.

[Jeff H]

Did you get the casting # and casting date from the engine? I'm guessing that if the engine code and date stamping are real then the casting date on the block will fall in line as well. I would check with some of the 2nd gen gurus here to see if they can help out a little more.

[Jacsey 70Z]

This is where you should find the VIN behind the blower motor, also a picture of my oil filter flange. They kept trying about four times, also notice the inspection crayon mark.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL17/1627096/6964160/130184799.jpg

See it on the inside left?
http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL17/1627096/6964160/130184706.jpg

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL17/1627096/6964160/97138874.jpg

[SuperNovaSS]

Charley,

I appreciate the fact that some people can buy things sight unseen still. I have bought a few parts sight unseen from you and would do it again it a heartbeat. It is a shame when others will not do the same and give honor a bad name. I can see both sides of the coin in this thread and hope everything works out for all involved. One thing is for sure, that color combo is awesome and in todays market throwing some money at a paint job would just be an investment in the future of the car!


Jason

[Belair62]

Jack...absolutely great pics...

[Jacsey 70Z]

Thanks Bob, I have a Great subject!!!

[mister_copo]

Gordon,

After reading this lengthy thread it is quite easy to see why so many posts were added, and yes there are points to both sides of the debate. I won't get into discrepencies of the car, but would offer to say that the car appears to be a real RS Z at this point, and it is quite obvious that you have a lot of car there to work with. Since you pulled the trigger on this deal without the required due dilligence most would excercise, I suggest you now lick your wounds and learn to appreciate what you have sitting there.

If I can further caution you on the car, don't rush to remove parts in the quest to find it's authenticity and end up breaking or damaging parts, but get the proper info on where to look and how to get there. Many of the knowledgeable people on this site and others would be happy to converse with you on the car, and can easily show you what to correct should you discover things that are not quite right on the car. Whats important is the fact that 2nd generation cars are well on the move $ wise, and you have a great car to work with should it require some work over the next couple years.

You can always drive it in the summer, and do a partial resto on a budget over the winter without having to redo the entire car at once should that be the thing that makes it right for you. I have owned and inspected many muscle cars over the years, and this one may have stung you a bit, but it's far from the type of car one should bail from just because it's rough around the edges. Fact is, the market is strong, and you will come out of this alright in your pockets. Don't be so hasty to dump it. It's a hot car that's very much in demand.

Tom http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[real_fast]

I'll have to say some of these forums are very good reading material; better than some of the magazines I read.

I would say there will probably come a day you'll be glad you have the car.

[Grusum]

OH MY GOD! I didn't realize the #s were in there, I thought they were on the flange where the blower mounts. My bad, I'll check again and get back. Hey you guys, THANK YOU for your support and advice. That comes from my heart, very much appreciated.

[Grusum]

Thank God for digital cameras! I didn't even know I had the answer until I downloaded the pics tonight. I just jammed my camera up in there and snapped away. If you zoom in on these you can clearly see 0N5446 the last two you can't decifer well, but I'm conviced. I'll can't post them so who can I e-mail them to?

[Mr70]

I'll post them.
Email them to me at [email protected]

[Rainer]

Keep in mind that your cowl pictures will just confirm that the body on the car matches the vin tag, i.e., there hasn't been a vin/body swap. The more important question is whether the engine has a stamping "from the factory" that matches your VIN. As was indicated earlier, the one on the block deck is suspect.

[Grusum]

Yes the stamping on the block is still a point of contention, however with the casting dates being what they are: D 28 0, I think that it is unlikely that someone could find a correct CTB block(that stamping is legit) within that narrow time frame. Possible, yes, but unlikely, right? The casting # is also correct for a CTB. Tranny #'s, and diff #'s are within the proper time frame as well. So if it is not a matching #'s stamping, it may be a date coded, re-stamped block at worst, right?
I've sent the pics of the partial vin found in the blower motor area to mr70, Thank you to him, that confirms that the vins, where they are in fact correct, match to this car undoubtably. Also it has been confirmed by esteemed gurus here that the trim tag is legit, and by inspecting it myself, armed along information collected here I strongly feel that the tag has never been off the car. In short the car has all the right parts apparently, including the correct gas pedal parts, guages, and various bits. A true Z28, withdesireable options. So apart from paying too much, in my opinion, the general consensus on this forum is that I'm still getting most of what I need to build a very nice car. I just hope I can get over the initial first impression to get up the will to start the project. BUT, if someone got marooned on a deserted island with an ugly woman, I bet it wouldn't be too many months before he had thoughts of jumping her anyway (or killing her and using her for bait, LOL) I haven't decided what to do yet and may not for sometime, but I do appreciate everone's input.
I must say that support fom my family and friends has been a very comforting aspect to all of this. I am grateful, and very lucky.
P.S.- If anyone here knows Chip Foose personally, let him know what a good story this would make. Maybe we could donate the car to charity when it gets overhauled, LMAO.

[Rainer]

Great, glad to hear you're not feeling as bad about the car. I agree with the general consensus here. The initial bad taste the car left you with will fade as you roll up your sleeves and undo some of the shoddy work and do the car justice. It deserves it. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Grusum]

Don't misunderstand, I'm still PI$$ED. It's just that a week has passed and I am finallyable to sleep at night. I have had lots of encouragement from here and at home. That doesn't take away the sour taste I have in my mouth. I feel as though I have been severely ripped off. Where the bulk of the blame lies is up to speculation. The point being is that I paid good money, in good faith (handshake deal-paid in full up front) and didn't get nearly the product that type of money would warrant. This was supposed to be a drive-enjoy-tinker(the small stuff) type of adventure, my dream car. It has turned into a financial nightmare, with the prospect of spending thousands more on a car I may never love.

[kwhizz]

I just hope I can get over the initial first impression to get up the will to start the project. BUT, if someone got marooned on a deserted island with an ugly woman, I bet it wouldn't be too many months before he had thoughts of jumping her anyway (or killing her and using her for bait, LOL)

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[PPPJJJFFF]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't misunderstand, I'm still PI$$ED. It's just that a week has passed and I am finallyable to sleep at night. I have had lots of encouragement from here and at home. That doesn't take away the sour taste I have in my mouth. I feel as though I have been severely ripped off. Where the bulk of the blame lies is up to speculation. The point being is that I paid good money, in good faith (handshake deal-paid in full up front) and didn't get nearly the product that type of money would warrant. This was supposed to be a drive-enjoy-tinker(the small stuff) type of adventure, my dream car. It has turned into a financial nightmare, with the prospect of spending thousands more on a car I may never love.

[/ QUOTE ]

Has the seller offered to reimburse you for what you feel may have been misrepresentations. The seller has made it sound like you and he have discussed that possibility.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Patrick

[Mr70]

Grusum wanted me to post these for him about the Car in question.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v669/Rick_Peters/z28syc.jpg

[Mr70]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v669/Rick_Peters/z28syc1.jpg

[Mr70]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v669/Rick_Peters/z28syc2.jpg

[Mr70]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v669/Rick_Peters/z28syc3.jpg

[SuperNovaSS]

Didn't you make the seller an offer to sell it to you off of Ebay? What was his reserve price? It seems like if you made an offer then you are the one who assigned the value to the car, not him. Also, if you bought it outside of EBay it is likely you did so to avoid the car going to a higher price than you paid. Is this correct? While this method may save you some money, it also leaves you vulnurable. I have learned a lesson from this one. It seems that this seller went further than most would to overstate some of the negatives about the car. I am not sure at this point whether it was to be ethical or protect his butt. Any input guys? Was the buyer ignorant about certain issues or dumb like a fox?


Jason

[Rainer]

Not to bust your chops any more Grusum, but in response to Jason's question I think that your lack of due diligence (or ignorance - Jasons's choice of words) resulted in your expectations not being met. I don't see it as the fault of the dealer, and trust me, I don't generally have a soft spot for classic car dealers. I read the description early on, and I think an effort was made to say essentially, "Hey, I think the car is nice, but you may not agree with me so come and look at it or send someone on your behalf." That's the cue you chose to overlook, and I think that most people who've bought classic cars recognize that doing so is very risky. If you feel that you've been severely ripped off, I don't think you have a right to blame the dealer. IMO you've severely overpaid for the car given its condition, and I understand your anger about that, but that blame rests with you.

[Grusum]

Thanks guys, all opinions are welcome.

[Rick H]

At the request of the buyer I was asked to review a few pictures and give my opinion. After review I contacted both the seller and buyer and asked them to resolve this issue and if possible to do it offline.

Let me state that if I found that the pictures favored the buyer I would have stated so, if it favored the seller I would have stated that as well. I was to be objective and look with an open mind.

I reviewed the above pictures and a couple more and have found some very disturbing issues. These issues show that in my opinion the seller has a very good case.

Again, I was only trying to help and was not favoring either party. BUT, the pictures shown above are just a few of what I looked at.

Again I hope they can resolve this in a civil manner.

Rick H.

[GaryH]

Rick, you say the seller has a good case. So the car is acceptable then?

[SuperNovaSS]

I meant to say was the seller ignorant or dumb like a fox. OOPS. Sorry about that.


Jason

[Rick H]

Gary,
In my opinion, no. I would hope that they can resolve this where all parties are satisfied.

Rick H.

[EUGENE OREGON]

Grusum,
It was nice talking with you this morning on the phone. I'm sorry for you loss on your Camaro. I agree with 69HURST (yup), and lots of other guys. You should ALWAYS have a car inspected before purchase.
ESPECIALLY from "Milford Auto Sales" in Hopedale, Massachusetts. Scott has obviously gotten better at shading the truth to protect himself. Of course every car a dealer sells isn't bad, but Scott will shade it to sound like every one is good! We true "car guys" need to stick together and inspect cars for each other--and drive shady dealers out when we can.
Yes, I purchased a misrepresented car 3 years ago from Scott. NO ONE would have paid what I did if they had seen it! My $30k "done" car I'll have over $50k in it before I can actually drive it. That's $20k in just mechanical problems! I won't bore you with the details, if you want to know, search for him on www.complaints.com. (http://www.complaints.com.)
I got the same song and dance, all the things that make it sound like he cares and will settle. Then he tells you to f-off. I wouldn't hold out any hope that he will help you.

I hope he does do the "stand up" thing! Can we all say in unison: INTEGRITY?

[PeteLeathersac]

I've stayed out of this thread 'til now but I just went back to the original eBay auction to review how it was laid out....here's the link if anyone else wants to.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4603329540

Here's a few comments....only an opinion from a simple car guy so please don't anyone attack. .
First off, I'm not saying Grusum is right because it's a buyer beware world and he did jump the gun and pass on the opinion of others. . Two, maybe not what he expected or worth what he paid, it appears he's got a real car there and a correct maybe even original motor that some foolish has dummy-stamped the pad? . So although not a 'flipper' for Grusum, hopefully he can enjoy working on the car improving it and in the long run the value will surpass what he paid. .
On to the seller....after reading the auction, I can't help but feel he knew more than he lets on now and avoided some points or worded around them carefully? . Worse was the disrespect in his postings here? .
That's it, good luck Grusum....hope to see your postings of progress on your car! ~ Pete

[Belair62]

I don't believe its a real Z 28...those gas pedal studs look kind of weird...

[Late BrakeU2]

"Contacting the seller: I talked to the seller the day the car arrived and told him of my disappointment with the car. Even the truck driver that delivered the car said, "This is a rough car!".

I have bought and sold cars,sight unseen,with sYc members and have had very pleasant experiences.When looking at ebay auctions one of the first things I look for(aside from hide and seek)is how candid the seller is.If he goes into detail about the faults and to a degree,understates the cars condition that tends to score high on my INTEGRITY meter.

The description of the car was pure babe in the woods fare,but clearly it should have been touched prior.That being said not everyone has the resources to fly all over inspecting cars.By the time you pay for air fare,rental,hotel etc that adds to the amount invested in the car(Yeah,a lot less than being a bagholder of bondo)but let's face it we all have rolled the dice at one time and hoped it would be boxcars not snake eyes.I would never purchase a collector car from "dealer" because rule #1 is never fall in love with the merchandise,and that can have ramifications with the code of ethics sometimes.JMHO

[Grusum]

[ QUOTE ]
Gary,
In my opinion, no. I would hope that they can resolve this where all parties are satisfied.

Rick H.

[/ QUOTE ]

As Rick knows, I have more issues here than simply fit and finish. I will withold posting these pending Scott and I coming to some middle ground. I sincerely hope that we can.

[Grusum]

In my defense, in my neck of the woods, a handshake is your word and one's honor is defined by your actions. If I was to sell something and offered the opportunity for someone to inspect it thoroughly, that would mean I had NOTHING to hide. I guess I'm not used to a world where that means "I'm covering my butt here so that I can't be held responsible". If I sold something to someone and they were in tears over it I would do everything in my power to rectify it. If I was certain the price was fair I would be confident that I could take the item back and sell it the next day to someone else, honor intact, sleeping well at night. I must also stress that I had independant assurance on the purchase. I coincidentally phoned a person for his opinion about the car two days before sealing the deal, not only did he say the car looked great in the ebay ad, but also he was a friend of the sellers, and told me if the seller said it was so then it was so. I also felt reassured by the fact that as the car sat waiting to be picked up, the seller told me that a guy literally woud not leave him alone about the car and was willing to pay me 3K more. Wouldn't this make you believe you had a decent car?

[Rick H]

Ok, I am going to post two pictures that will pretty much tell the story. Again, I reviewed these on the basis that I would be subjective and let both party know of where I stand about this car. When I reviewed these 2 pictures I knew right away that something was very wrong. I have a 1970 Z/28 sitting in my driveway and have owned more of these cars then I can remember. I'm not saying I am an expert but I know a thing or two about these cars.

Anyways, the following pictures of the rear swaybar frame brackets are in no way factory installed. They look nothing like any factory bracket I have ever seen. Matter of fact if you look close to the framerails you will not see any evidence of the correct brackets ever being installed. The welds are bad and you can see the undercoating.

Factory swaybar brackets have an eliptical shape to them and are welded to the sides of the framerail. Any 1970 Z/28 owner should recognize this right away. The ones shown in the following pictures are homemade.

I have nothing to gain from this and want to see that all parties are satisfied.

There are other issues with the car but these pretty much sum it up.

Rick H.

http://www.camaros.com/rick/sway01.jpg
http://www.camaros.com/rick/sway02.jpg

[COPO]

As another '70 Z-28 owner, I can tell you those rear sway bar brackets aren't even close to factory appearance.

[Stuart Adams]

I'm with Belair, is this a real Z. Rough car, IMO.

[chevjon396]

here is a photo of the correct 70 Z28 rear stab upper bracket.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y45/chevjon396/assemblyrear1.jpg

[Charley Lillard]

I think what Rick and Copo are telling you is the car is not a real Z28.

[Stuart Adams]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

[70Z]

Holy crap, not even close is right. I have a close up pic of what they should look like but I don't know how to resize it and post it.

[Hotrodpaul]

Here is a pic of an original bracket off of my 70 Z-28.


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/Hotrodpaul86/DSCN4065.jpg

Also, I noticed that the car in question had no rear bumper guards and I did not see the cup style bracket that hold the gas pedal studs. The studs seemed to be attached directly to the floor. Take a look at an original bracket:

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y86/Hotrodpaul86/DSCN3914.jpg

Paul

[Rick H]

Two pictures for comparison.

Rick H.

http://www.camaros.com/rick/sway03.jpg
http://www.camaros.com/rick/sway02.jpg

[@wot]

I am not a 2nd gen z28 expert, but I have seen (and fabricated) plenty of non-original hangers, traction bars, etc., and those pics clearly show the work of a back yard mechanic.

[Rick H]

I believe that it is time for the 2 parties to resolve this issue. It is evident that things just do not add up and I for one am pretty convinced about this car.

I really do not think that anymore hashing, bashing and posting is going to help this matter. Let the 2 parties work it out.

Rick H.

[CamarosRus]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/CamarosRus/Camaro%201970%20Resto%20Details/BumpStop.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/CamarosRus/Camaro%201970%20Resto%20Details/EngineMountsZ28.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/CamarosRus/Camaro%201970%20Resto%20Details/Scan10012.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/CamarosRus/70%20Camaro%20RS%20SS%20350%204Spd/RearWheelHouseFactoryOverspray.jpg

A few more misc pics detailing some of the cars issues.....

Rick, Have you drawn a conclusion yet re: originality of Norwood Z-28 trim if sway bar mounts were fabricated...

[Rick H]

Chuck,
I just can't put my finger on why the complete drivetrain is Z/28 (except for that obvious stamp). The trim tag build date is within the VIN number range but the body is not Z/28. The floor gas pedal attachment is wrong, the rear swaybar frame mounts are homemade, there are no rear bumper guards. I have a theory but really don't want to post it in fear of it becoming gospel.

The drivetrain points to a Z, but the body does not.

Something is escaping me and I really have to think of what I am missing.

As for the stamp, has anyone figured out why it is wrong besides the 2 missing numbers and possible location? Yes, I do know.

Rick H.

p.s. Chuck, you really need to learn how to resize your pictures, my computer screen isn't wide enough for some of your pics. LOL http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[RamAirDave]

Im definately learning this evening. I know these cars "decently", but nowhere near an expert.

After reading through this thread, I was out in the garage checking the pedal cup bracket and rear sway bar brackets (two things I didnt know to look for before) on my 70 RS Z. They're there and untampered with. Didnt really have any doubts, but still nice to know for sure.

dave

[Late BrakeU2]

[ QUOTE ]
Im definately learning this evening. I know these cars "decently", but nowhere near an expert.

After reading through this thread, I was out in the garage checking the pedal cup bracket and rear sway bar brackets (two things I didnt know to look for before) on my 70 RS Z. They're there and untampered with. Didnt really have any doubts, but still nice to know for sure.

dave

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's the orginal thread that got the party started-
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/181769/page/8/fpart/1/vc/1

BTW what do I win? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

[CamarosRus]

Rick, Sorry about large pics......I have many, many pics and alot of the older ones, never got edited and resized.
How about the possibility that the drivetrain, trim tag, and vin tag got moved to a non sway bar/non Z body.....I missed the info if firewall VIN, matches the dash VIN.
Has GRUSUM inspected entire left side of block looking for (any) VIN stamping..........as Ive previously written I found mine between soft plugs......however if in car, I might not have ever seen.
I have not yet determined why Block partial VIN is wrong, but I strongly believe it was not NORWOOD applied...

[THNDER]

Anyone ever catch the "400" ballancer in the ebay pics?

[CamarosRus]

Mike S. (aka THNDER) has a LEGENDS award winning 70 Z-28 and is one of the 2nd Gen judges for the ACA Camaro Nationals at Carlisle. As well he heads up the Gateway Camaro Club, which hosted the outdoor show at SCR8.
I did not catch the balancer Mike....is it the indented area having to do with balancing ??????? This does not bode well for car having ORIGINAL CTB engine?????

[Hotrodpaul]

This looks to be a non original LT-1 engine. The block appears to be from a 70 Z since the stamp looks legit but with a 400 balancer I would guess the internals are based around an externally balanced 383 stroker (3.75" stroke vs 3.48" stroke) and a cast iron crank. I would also check the flywheel to verify the imbalance weight as well. If a VIN is found on the bellhousing flange my guess is that it will not match the car, and that is why the partial VIN was stamped on the pad to make it "Numbers Matching".

Oddly, the trim tag and rivets look original......

Paul

[Rick H]

[ QUOTE ]
I have not yet determined why Block partial VIN is wrong, but I strongly believe it was not NORWOOD applied...

[/ QUOTE ]

Well that is an easy question. There is no way the partial block VIN should be different from tranny VIN. When the tranny was mated to the engine the SAME gang stamp was used to stamp both the tranny and engine. It was stamped by ONE individual. I find it hard to believe that the two numbers might have fallen out or that someone forgot to put them in during the stamping process. I don't think Norwood changed there stamping process from the previous years.

It might have been Scott Norwood applied. He did miss wide right one time.

I think it's shame really because when I first saw the pictures I thought the car looked great.


Rick H.

[1970ChevelleSS]

Well I guess this shows that some of us who are not experts, but want to aquire one of these cars really needs to pay an expert to look at them for us. Seems like cheap insurance.

[PPPJJJFFF]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I guess this shows that some of us who are not experts, but want to aquire one of these cars really needs to pay an expert to look at them for us. Seems like cheap insurance.

[/ QUOTE ] http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif

[bigdave33]

Not to beat up buyer anymore But, I think if you are going to spend that type of cash for a car . I would get a plane ticket to see for my self.Photo's get be very forgiving on condition of paint and body depending on lighting etc... I just purchased a 67 L79 corvette roadster from east coast car is a frame of restored car I still had to see for myself before handing over that much cash . I did not want to wait till the hauler showed up to inspect car . Unless a car has some type of recent pedigree ncrs,event or magazine coverage a inspection is a must .

[VinYenko]

This thread reminds me of a car I bought from a member of this site a couple years ago....Frame-Off my A$$ !!
It's my fault though...proper due diligence was lacking. Chalk it up as a lesson learned.
p.s. At least the mechanicals were sound.

[chevjon396]

In looking over all of the conversation and the details set out in this discussion, I have a question about this car. If the car at issue is the one that has the non factory upper rear stabilizer brackets it can not be a factory Z/28 body. And if it's VIN is "N544693" and this number is also the same stamped at the heater motor hole in the fire wall then this VIN was never assigned to a factory produced Z28. Thus the question is how can that number appear on the block (at any location) and be the "original" block???? Hint: check each side of the rear frame rails in the area where the factory tail pipe hangers mount. Look to see if the frame rail holes for the bracket attachment bolts are threaded on both sides.

jon

[Rick H]

[ QUOTE ]
If the car at issue is the one that has the non factory upper rear stabilizer brackets it can not be a factory Z/28 body.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're jumping into the end of what already has been determined.

[ QUOTE ]
And if it's VIN is "N544693" and this number is also the same stamped at the heater motor hole in the fire wall then this VIN was never assigned to a factory produced Z28.

[/ QUOTE ]


Just what documentation do you to prove that statement???


[ QUOTE ]
Hint: check each side of the rear frame rails in the area where the factory tail pipe hangers mount. Look to see if the frame rail holes for the bracket attachment bolts are threaded on both sides.

[/ QUOTE ]

That proves nothing. What about any other 1970 Camaro factory ordered dual exhaust? I once owned a 1970 Camaro 350/4speed car that had dual exhaust and it wasn't a Z/28.


Let's let the 2 parties resolve this issue.

Rick H.

[EUGENE OREGON]

Good Morning GRUSUM!
Do you have any good news for us yet?

[Grusum]

We have come to an agreement, not a perfect one, but a settlement just the same. I'll let you all know when the dust has settled.

[musclecarjohn]

the suspense is killing me.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

[EUGENE OREGON]

Any resolution?