NBC REPORT.....US AUTO INDUSTRY AT A CROSSROADS

[JoeG]

Ford has to lay off approximately 30,000 jobs closing some 14 facilities
Patriotism has been replaced by the bottom line....
In 1995 the US auto industry had 75% of the American market to themselves, last year in 2005 that margin shrunk to 60%..
Toyota has captured a big chunk of the market thru quality control and hi-tech cars.
Chrysler has made up some of it's lost market share thru the 300 platform...
Toyota has 29 US Auto plants called transplants---They employ young non-union workers at less pay and Toyota keeps putting up auto plants as US Auto plants close their doors-----Even if the US Auto industry makes a car to compete with Toyota--They'll never be able to build one as cost effective as these Toyota transplant plants
The UAW UNION is being looked at by the Major US auto industries as far as possible reductions in retirement packages and benefits ......
The playing field is in favor of TOYOTA....Just thought you'd like to read this....

[Chevy454]

[ QUOTE ]
Toyota has captured a big chunk of the market thru quality control and hi-tech cars.

[/ QUOTE ]
Here's one for the "Take it for what's it's worth" department, but...

I read a report some time back about build quality and reliability and such...I think it was JD Powers or something...anyway, GM had actually closed the gap and even *surpassed* the usual heavy hitters of Benz, BMW, Lexus...in fact, the report hammered Lexus pretty hard as it had moved considerably down the list. Anyway, while GM's quality and reliability has come a long way, the problem lies in the *perception* of prospective buyers...consumers automatically assume a Lexus or Benz is gonna be more reliable or trouble free than a GM, even though some reports/surveys prove otherwise...the off shore makers have simply raised the bar and forced the domestic brands to either sink or swim.

I wish I could find the article as it was a good read, and was critical of GM *not* because of it's build quality but because of it's lack of efforts at changing the perceptions of consumers.

[Jeff H]

Great point Rob. The current perception of GM is amazing and GM isn't doing much marketing to change it. Even if the quality was identical to imports, most Americans would still want the domestic product to cost 25% less than the import before they would buy it. But consumers will baby and pamper their imports as they praise them, but at the same time they will abuse their domestic vehicles and complain. They need to change the perception of what is really happening with the vehicles to recapture market share. I'm a Chevrolet guy and always will be so if I go to buy a new car it will be a Chevy. The problem is, I don't buy new cars very often so I can't really help GM. I keep thinking it has to do with some really poor management and bad decision making in the upper ranks.

[PeteLeathersac]

We're all at a turning point in the North American Auto Industry for sure. . Don't forget Canada is part of this whole thing w/ the Auto Pact. . Maybe GM makes quality stuff now but the average persons perception of quality comes from experiences w/ cars made 3 or more years ago? . The General may have done well on models like the Astro Vans having recovered tooling costs long before they stopped pumping them out, but alot of people who owned them and experienced the magic of the 4.3's moved on to import stuff and will never return to the fold again. . I'm sick about it all and we're in for worse troubles as the Chinese Auto invasion is yet to come. ~ Pete

[Kim_Howie]

I said this 25years ago. It's hard to buy a car that cost 12.00 an hour when I am making 6.00 per hour. The cost to build a American car vs Jap car is the problem.

[Canucklehead]

I've had my Ford ranger for 10yrs vertually trouble free. I would stand in line to buy another one anytime. Even though im a chevy guy, when i checked whats out there the ranger was best in it's class.

[PeteLeathersac]

[ QUOTE ]
I've had my Ford ranger for 10yrs vertually trouble free. I would stand in line to buy another one anytime. Even though im a chevy guy, when i checked whats out there the ranger was best in it's class.

[/ QUOTE ]

But isn't your Ranger really a Mazda w/ badge engineering?

~ Pete

[JoeG]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Toyota has captured a big chunk of the market thru quality control and hi-tech cars.

[/ QUOTE ]
Here's one for the "Take it for what's it's worth" department, but...

I read a report some time back about build quality and reliability and such...I think it was JD Powers or something...anyway, GM had actually closed the gap and even *surpassed* the usual heavy hitters of Benz, BMW, Lexus...in fact, the report hammered Lexus pretty hard as it had moved considerably down the list. Anyway, while GM's quality and reliability has come a long way, the problem lies in the *perception* of prospective buyers...consumers automatically assume a Lexus or Benz is gonna be more reliable or trouble free than a GM, even though some reports/surveys prove otherwise...the off shore makers have simply raised the bar and forced the domestic brands to either sink or swim.

I wish I could find the article as it was a good read, and was critical of GM *not* because of it's build quality but because of it's lack of efforts at changing the perceptions of consumers.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is part of the problem that was mentioned in the report Rob, that it's not gonna be enough for the US auto manufactures to bring their quality control up, which they have, but they will have to surpass the foreign auto makers to convert back the market shares they lost..............It's gonna be tough for US Auto manufacturers, as it stands right now, with these foriegn car transplant facities low production costs vs US Auto plant production costs......

[Late BrakeU2]

Ray Charles could have seen this one coming,why do you think they were snapping pics of everything in sight?

The big three thought denial was a river in Egypt,sat on their hands,and had their pockets pickeds slowly since the Reagan Administration.Pretty pathetic actually.

The good thing is with the Camry entering Nextel cup in 07 it will backfire due to jingoistic pride and all will be right in the kingdom

[JoeG]

Denial is a river in Egypt.. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
When I was in my late teens I was seeing a girl in South Jersey, and she would kid me about how I would always lock my car door---They didn't lock their car or housedoors---Different times .....As is the US open door policy....It needs updated safeguards.....I'm off my soap box.. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[SmallHurst]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've had my Ford ranger for 10yrs vertually trouble free. I would stand in line to buy another one anytime. Even though im a chevy guy, when i checked whats out there the ranger was best in it's class.

[/ QUOTE ]

But isn't your Ranger really a Mazda w/ badge engineering?

~ Pete

[/ QUOTE ]

Pete,

That may be the case for a lot of products (Ford Escape for instance) but it is being built in the US. As for new designs coming down the pipe for Ford, they are all coming from across the pond (Mazda and Volvo) and they are making some adaptation for North America. One of the other obstacles is the dealership experience. How many people can actually say that they like going to a dealership? I work at the Ford KC Truck plant as a supplier and I drive an Oldsmobile to work. I get to park on the back row of the parking lot (because I am a non-Ford product) and I am not the only one back there. When my car dies (137K and still going) I might buy a new Ford or Ford family product. Here is some more food for thought. All segments of Ford worldwide were in the black except for Ford of North America! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[NapsterNova]

I agree, there is a serious problem in this country. GM and Ford layoffs, CEOs ripping off companies left and right, importing steel, etc. Everything we freakin' own is foreign. I own three Chevys and quite frankly have been trouble free...except for that dang 40 year old Nova. It really breaks my heart when I hear my coworkers say that American cars are crap. I can argue facts and figures until I'm blue in the face but they just keep to their own opinion. One thing goes bad on a guys car and all of a sudden it's "crappy American car" I am sick of it! We import much more than export and it is killing our country. Sorry, I'm just disturbed over Ford’s last announcement.

[WILMASBOYL78]

It took the Japanese 60 years but they finally won the war!!

wilma http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[SamLBInj]

The problem is Americans in general, its our fault, its called capitalism and Im all for it but we cant have it both ways. The American worker always wants more, more pay,less hours, more paid vacations and holidays, medical, pensions, perks, ect. The executives want more too, more stock options, bigger saleries, company cars and jets, ect, ect...Thats why a vette cost 6 grand in 1976 and 60 grand in 2006...its a domino effect that starts with the union guy who mines the iron that eventually becomes a part installed on the car by a UAW worker. This is our way of life and unless we do something drastic you will soon hear a giant vacuum sucking sound headed for China and there $2.50 an hour work force building 9K cars...

[PeteLeathersac]

Exactly....you can hear the vacuum sound already! . Part of the problem is our factories have to comply w/ enviromental and safety issues where the Chinese plants spew the bad into the air and water without penalty or cost also if a worker gets hurt they just don't have a job anymore....no work is no pay plus there's no benefits or retirement funds to cost the manufacturers either! . I think the real issue is why our governments allow these products to be sold here which is what's been taking our own manufacturers out of the game? . Look at the small town stores now....WalMart is basically an all Chinese outlet now and how can anyone compete? . The Chinese cars are soon arriving and I don't know of plans to build plants here like Toyota etc? . We're in BIG trouble and I think it's a one way river we just came down....Sh*t Creek is maybe a better name for it??? ~ Pete

[SamLBInj]

Your right, I believe our biggest problem right now is our oversized government run by idiots with zero common sense, there relatives and friends, lobbiest, contributers, ect, all haveing no clue and their only interest is the almighty buck. Halliburton comes to mind http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif..

[ANDY M]

For what it's worth, Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Mazda built plants here because American workers are more productive than their Japanese counterparts. If that wasn't true, they never would have invested the billions of dollars to build the plants and pay the parts suppliers to help make their AMERICAN built cars the best selling cars in the country. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif
Mercedes, BMW, Subaru, Mitsubishi and now Hyundai all have plants in America now. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif
GM bought and lost it's ass on Fiat in Italy. Same thing with Saab, which is now sharing a platform with Saturn. They also sold off their share of Fuji because it was losing too much money. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
Daimler-Chrysler sold off Mitsubishi for the same reason. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
They weren't making money out side of America, and they were losing money here.
Remember Iszusa? GM would like to forget what they lost on that deal. Same with Suzuki. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
They are now selling more trucks and cars without the Chevy bowtie on it. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif
Ford would like to forget how much they lost trying to sell Kia, which seems to be selling well without a blue oval on it. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
For what American automotive exectives are being paid, they sure have a spotty track record, but yet the top execs still get paid more than rock stars do. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif
No comparison between the union wages and the top execs salaries with perks. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif
JMO

[PeteLeathersac]

I have no problem w/ what name goes on anything as long as what we buy is manufactured here in North America. . It's the stuff that's made offshore that's screwing things up! . I'm not connected enough to know what the import-export ratios are now compared to in the past but expect that would shine some light on what's happening? . Sounds like a question someone from Vandelay Industries might be able to answer??? ~ Pete

[SamLBInj]

[ QUOTE ]
For what it's worth, Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Mazda built plants here because American workers are more productive than their Japanese counterparts. If that wasn't true, they never would have invested the billions of dollars to build the plants and pay the parts suppliers to help make their AMERICAN built cars the best selling cars in the country. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif


[/ QUOTE ]
Politics...Its not cheaper to build here its the import taxes that create problems for them, they sidestep by creating the so and so America company, grease the politicians hands and whalla, instant tax breaks and incentives for opening the factory's in repressed areas and nice little tariff import breaks for their sister company in the Motherland....

[SamLBInj]

[ QUOTE ]
I have no problem w/ what name goes on anything as long as what we buy is manufactured here in North America. . It's the stuff that's made offshore that's screwing things up! . I'm not connected enough to know what the import-export ratios are now compared to in the past but expect that would shine some light on what's happening? . Sounds like a question someone from Vandelay Industries might be able to answer??? ~ Pete

[/ QUOTE ]
Ever shop at Walmart? 95% of there stuff is from China...

[Mr. T]

[ QUOTE ]
Ever shop at Walmart? 95% of there stuff is from China...

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree Sam, and I'll bet that someday soon, that 100% of all the items at Walmart will be China or whatever country imports. I am getting real tired of picking something up at Walmart or any other store, and not seeing "MADE IN THE USA".

[ANDY M]

BTW It was H Ross Pirot who coined the phrase "that giant sucking sound..." about American automakers building plants in Mexico for cheap Mexican labor.
There are many Chevy trucks proudly made in Mexico. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif
The new giant sucking sound is the USA accepting more and more illegal Mexican and Central American workers who are more than happy to do the menial labor that we are above doing ourselves. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
More Mexicans came here than jobs that were lost to Mexico, not to mention the quality control nightmires that some manufacturers had.
Think about that the next time you have a salad or sleep on clean sheets in a hotel. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif
People all over the world are trying to get onto this country. Even if it is being run by crooked politicians.
(Asses and Elephants) http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
Point is there is no solution to this problem. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
There are no simple solutions for anything that involves global economics, and all car companies are global. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[SamLBInj]

If you have an American Standard toilet lift the tank lid and see what it says....Made in Brazil or Made in Mexico..That tells the story right there... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[SamLBInj]

Actually Andy there is a solution but its takes people with guts and determination to change things, Americans have become fat and lazy (Just a loose term) and dont follow up or really care what the sneaky money grubbing politicians are doing...Funny, I see more interest and action from the Bikers than most others. Just look at the first few pages of Easy Rider or Biker Mag and they always list the politicians and laws that effect our way of life and stand up and fight them. Basic society could care less and to prove it all you have to ask a few simple questions, How many of you belong to a tax association? have ever read the constitution and bill of rights for your state? or this country? When was the last time anyone here read the monthly publications of new idiotic laws trying to get passed by seedy politicians. If we were in the mid 1700's there would be another Tea Party. Our own Country has us scared to death to stand up for our selves by fear of arrest or worse tax audits. I know im getting off track a little here but in general everything goes back to the politicians. A couple good movies make pretty good points, Tucker and A distinguised Gentlemen....

[SamLBInj]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ever shop at Walmart? 95% of there stuff is from China...

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree Sam, and I'll bet that someday soon, that 100% of all the items at Walmart will be China or whatever country imports. I am getting real tired of picking something up at Walmart or any other store, and not seeing "MADE IN THE USA".

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a friend and we were talking the other day, he is a partner in a company that manufactures toilets, it cost them 48.00 bucks to make them here and they were just making enough to survive so they went to China and opened a factory. It now costs them 12.00 bucks and they are making loads of cash. They still sell them retail for 200.00. Its all about making the shareholders happy and maximizing profits..Were do you stand on this? making your American workers happy and driving a Yugo or hiring cheap China labor and having a stable of ZL-1's and Hemi's...? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

[mockingbird812]

[ QUOTE ]
Ray Charles could have seen this one coming,why do you think they were snapping pics of everything in sight?

The big three thought denial was a river in Egypt,sat on their hands,and had their pockets pickeds slowly since the Reagan Administration.Pretty pathetic actually.

The good thing is with the Camry entering Nextel cup in 07 it will backfire due to jingoistic pride and all will be right in the kingdom

[/ QUOTE ]

O.K. that hurts my brain. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif What does this mean?:

" ...it will backfire due to jingoistic pride and all will be right in the kingdom... "

[Late BrakeU2]

Basically that France Jr allowing Toyota to enter cars in the most sacred series in american motorsports could have a potentially damaging effect on Japanese car sales.

If they prove successful(the Tacoma has already won a championship in the NCTS) and best believe they will(because of a virtually unlimited budget thanks to the US pumping billions through car sales to them for years)how will it be recieved at a time when domestic car companies are struggling for survival? It's no fault of the Japanese,they did their homework and built a better product while we were offered world class models like the Pontiac Aztec http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif. This is a very proud country that loves sport.Once the connection is made between Toyota winning races,factories closing,and americans losing jobs you could potentially see a wholesale boycott of Japanese products by the rabid and passionate Nascar fan base and-that is a rather large one.JMHO

[ANDY M]

The Camry is getting into NASCAR because it's the been the best selling car in America for the past 7 years. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Say what you want about NASCAR, but they do understand marketing, and making money. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[SamLBInj]

[ QUOTE ]
...consumers automatically assume a Lexus or Benz is gonna be more reliable or trouble free than a GM,

[/ QUOTE ]
Its not an assumption its a fact, Ive owned a dozen or so Benzes and Lexus and have had ZERO problems, Cant say the same for my domestics..How about my GMC truck that the dealer has had in his shop more than ive had in my driveway...Those who campare quality between Mercedes and Lexus vs Domestic have never owned or driven one, there is no comparison....

[70Z]

totally agree Sam.

One of our cars is a little BMW 323is..This is a low end bemmer but it's built like a tank. Been rear ended twice by BIG American cars. A Bonneville and a Caddy..Both times the Bemmer just had scratches and thats not an exaggeration. Didn't even get it fixed the first time the damage was so minor. Both the American cars just sort of blew up on impact and had considerable front end damage.

Had that car now since it was new in '99. 70,000 miles, not 1 single problem. Still tight as day one in every way. Made me such a believer thats all I'll buy anymore.

[COPO]

In the BMW enthusiast circles, bimmer is a BMW car and beemer is a BMW motorcycle. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Back in the early 80's my everyday driver was a gray market Hartge BMW 323i back in the early 80's with 4.10's & nitrous. That little car would run 4.5 sec. 0-60 and mid 12's in the 1/4 and was a blast on a road race course.

[70Z]

Well see, you learn something around here everyday. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[JoeG]

And driving in the snow with a bimmer was a bummer....