Maher ZL1 in Corvette Fever: Question

[zl1vette]

First of all let me state that this is not intended to start a flame war nor make accusations. I ask questions and seek facts.

The March 2006 issue of Corvette Fever has a four page article on John Maher's 1969 Monaco Orange Corvette and is claiming that this is the second documented ZL1 Corvette found in existence. Thus it would also make it ZL1 Corvette no. 3 including the yellow and white ZL1's. The white ZL1 does not have its tank sticker, but two previous owners have signed affidavits as to its originality.

Corvette Fever shows what it reports as the origninal invoice for the car, and part of the original tank sticker.

What I find strange is that the invoice lists "Special Turbo Jet 427" and then the price of $3000. On the tank sticker next to the "02ZL1AA" code it lists "Special Turbo Jet 427".

Now it has been my understanding that the ZL1 option was an aluminum block for the L88. In other words, there was no ZL1 engine itself. The customer had to order the L88 engine and the ZL1 option, which is what the whole, original build sheet for the yellow, fully documented ZL1 shows. (Vette Vues magazine, March 1980, page 10). The reproduction invoice for the white ZL1 also has the L88 listed.

Perhaps this was a typo on the tank sticker, but unfortunately the rest of the sticker is missing where it would have indicated that an L88 was ordered for the car.

The invoice however is complete, with all options listed, but again there is no mention of the L88. The VIN number is listed as ending in 10209. What is also of note is that the white ZL1 VIN number indicates that it was Corvette number
6753 built in 1969, and the yellow ZL1 VIN number is 29219. Therefore, if we accept the authenticity of the white ZL1 and its VIN number, that would indicate that the orange ZL1 was built in between.

My question: was the ZL1 option available without the L88?

One could conjecture that GM might have done this as a price break to help sell the RPO, but then Fred Gibb ordered 50 COPO ZL1 Camaros all at once and he did not get a price break.

In the Camaro the ZL1 was not listed this way, but then that was a COPO car, and technically there was no L88 nor ZL1 RPO for the Camaro.


BW

[rpoz11]

"My question: was the ZL1 option available without the L88?"

I doubt it,... if you look at what every ZL1 came with internally, you'll see GM's intentions. It was a short lived run, and I believe had only one purpose!!!!
The de-tuned version played with by GM , to me, has not ever shown what was run internally, though considered, never made it to the showroom nor production.

So for your answer, NO!

[Chevy454]

If I remember right from talking to John, his car was the magazine test car...and went from white to hugger orange at some time early? Maybe it got a price break since it was an early, early press car?

[ratbox]

definately not an expert . but i disagree in the statement that zl-1's were the same engine as l-88 only with aluminum block. i'm not sure what else(probably more) .but i know that the cam's were differant . L-88 -#3925535 .540 intake/.560 exhaust-duration 326/334. ZL-1 -#3959180 .560 intake/.600 exhaust- duration 322/334.
.also found on HD parts list-pushrods # 3942415,3942416(intake/exhaust)with listing desription "Pushrod,intake,427-CID w/heavy duty aluminum block.7/16-in.diameter."so obviously they used a differant pushrod. and i'm sure there are other differances also. ie; possibly carb - maybe more.there's another interesting part listed on "HD" list-#3967811, despription "Crankshaft-1968(?)-'69 aluminum-block 427 CID.3-49/64-in. stroke,5140 steel forging w/cross-drilled mains.Nitride finnish on journals.2.1985-in.rod,2.748-in. main journal diameters.(Ident.7115). both of those parts have a desription that mention for "aluminum block", so they must be specific.and their are probably other parts and processes TO parts(treatments) that are differant. but it definately is a differant motor with differant specs. i have know idea about build sheet's and rpo's(possible two step rpo order to get one-manditory l-88?) for these cars as i have never seen one. but i would doubt it. maybe the build sheets with rpo l-88 also were put there so the builders would know to put on the rest of the applicable components (like special brakes and suspension) as they might have already been instructed as to what an l-88 car consisted of and how to build one. and the zl-1 rpo was less familiar. so a helpful guideline for assembly workers? i don't know, just a possible guess.that's all i could remember off the top and with a quick look in my library. note- remember not related to production cars, but they also made ZL-1's that were different from production car ZL-1's. that had some differant parts from normal ZL-1's for Can-am applications ie; even higher lift cam(.600/.600) and gear drive. probably even more differant parts(and massaging) here too.

[JChlupsa]

Notice where it states the ORG ZL1 engine was at home in the garage.

http://www.yenko.net/attachments/188668-ZL1VetteArticle2.JPG

[zl1vette]

Ratbox,

You are definitely correct that the RPO L88 and RPO ZL1 are different motors with more than just different cylinder blocks. My question has to do with how it was written up on the build sheet.


BW

[Rowdy Rat]

[ QUOTE ]
You are definitely correct that the RPO L88 and RPO ZL1 are different motors with more than just different cylinder blocks.

[/ QUOTE ]

While the first design L-88 differed considerably from the ZL-1, the second design L-88 and ZL-1 were essentially the same with the only difference being the aluminum block. Open chamber heads, the bigger camshaft, the new Holley DP carb... all were part of the second design L-88 as well as the ZL-1. A few second design L-88s were built early in the 1969 model year (around November/December 1968 to get them in the hands of racers for Daytona), but the vast majority were built after the strike in mid-1969.

As far as the ZL-1 in question, I also have the 1980 Vette Vues and was immediately curious why it differed from the Corvette Fever article... I even had someone email some high resolution photos of the Daytona yellow car which he had to make sure that I wasn't seeing things.

Your question in the initial post is a good one. There are differences between the paperwork for orange car and the yellow car that should be researched.

One piece of information that would be very helpful in my personal research is if someone has in their possession or has access to an original window sticker for a Hechler Chevrolet (Virginia) delivered Corvette in the latter half of 1969. If so, I would very much like to get a photocopy of it (I'll be happy to pay for your trouble in getting it).

Regards,

Stan Falenski

[JChlupsa]

The complete article and a copy of the Yellow ZL1 Vettes sticker

http://www.yenko.net/photos/data/500/medium/ho_zl1_page_1.JPG
http://www.yenko.net/photos/data/500/medium/HO_ZL1_page_2.JPG
http://www.yenko.net/photos/data/500/medium/HO_ZL1_page_3.JPG
http://www.yenko.net/photos/data/500/medium/HO_ZL1_page_4.JPG
http://www.yenko.net/photos/data/500/Yellow_ZL1_Vette_sticker.JPG

[Marina66SS]

There were four ZL-1's built originally. Two are supposed to be the yellow Roger Judski car and the white (Otis Chandler owned, I know he doesn't own it now and I apologize to the current owner). I don't know much about the other two other than one was a convertible painted in a light color. I read an article that had vintage photos that showed the light paint, possibly white. They used this car for testing and actually had put a TH400 in it and got a best of 10.96 @ 132 mph with slicks and the bumpers removed. All this is from memory so if I remember right he car was supposedly destroyed. However, if it wasn't along with the fourth car it is possible to have four documented ZL-1's. Certainly this car fits the pictures that I seen before being that it is a convertible.

[zl1vette]

An earlier post commented that the orange car owned by Maher could be the white convertible that Zora set up for the press. However, that test session occurred in Feb 1969 and the Maher Corvette has a sale date of 12-30-68. The white convertible also had a four speed Muncie transmission as reported in the May 1969 issue of Road & Track, so that would disqualify these two cars as the same.

The test car that Zora set up with the automatic transmission was a red T-top coupe. There is a photo of it in the Oct 1969 Motor Trend.

Corvette Fever also reports that Maher was a friend of Don Yenko, and their August 1992 issue has an article with paper work that shows a Yenko purchase of a 1966 L88 Corvette roadster. This car of course does not show up on any of the sales sheets as it was not sold to the public. Maher's car was invoiced through Chevy dealer West Penn Garage.

[Chevy454]

You also have to remember that this car has a Gulf Racing connection, and GM regularly backdoored hi-perf stuff to them...

[Jeff H]

I thought I remembered reading an article a few years back about a ZL1 Corvette that was used for hill climb racing like at Pike's Peak. Was that the Yellow car? Then a couple of years ago I remember reading somewhere that the new number was there were 7 ZL1 Corvettes made, but I have no idea where I saw that. So I have no clue as to how many were supposedly made. It's kind of the same situation with the ZL1 Camaros. 2 prototypes and recently the talk of a Yellow car in Canada that does not appear to be on the list of 69.

[TimG]

I remember the white ZL1 press car with the automatic transmission locked in Drive (to avoid blowing the engine) being a 1968 fitted with a ZL1 engine. It was a white roadster with a hard top and dark stripe the length of the car. The door push knobs are a give away to the year.
I understand that this orange ZL1 was discussed at the NCRS Florida meet and the tank sticker was felt to be authentic. The feeling is that there were more than two factory ZL1 Corvettes built.
I visited with the owner of the orange car at the Fall Vettefest in 2004, very genuine and pleasant fellow that enjoyed talking about his car.

[COPO_Anders]

For what it´s worth.

[DarrenX33]

I thought I remembered Larry (Pantera) saying that he saw a blue ZL1 on a lot back in the day... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

[Defbob]

[ QUOTE ]
Certainly this car fits the pictures that I seen before being that it is a convertible.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

I see an orange car with a vinyl top. My opinion is that it is just an L-88 car that probably had a ZL1 in it when he bought it and he was conned. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[hvychev]

[ QUOTE ]
I thought I remembered Larry (Pantera) saying that he saw a blue ZL1 on a lot back in the day...

[/ QUOTE ]

Darren I was thinking the same thing. If memory serves the car was blue and was sitting outside a body shop in Oklahoma.

[PLATINUM6BBL]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Certainly this car fits the pictures that I seen before being that it is a convertible.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

I see an orange car with a vinyl top. My opinion is that it is just an L-88 car that probably had a ZL1 in it when he bought it and he was conned. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
I DOUBT THAT! Being that he was a State Trooper at the time it wouldn't have been smart. His connection to Don Yenko comes from the fact that his dad bought GMC trucks for his fleet from Yenko. I have 2 friends that grew up w/ John and his cars. He traded in a blue 1968 L88 'Vette, w/ around 2400 miles, on the orange ZL-1. Andy Africa bought the traded L88 and luckily, it still survives today. My friend Burr Corbett mounted the first set of slicks this car ever had on it and ran around quite a bit w/ John. When I asked Burr about Johns' car he stated "why would John take a perfectly good L88 with only 2400 miles on it and trade it for another L88 a year later? He traded it because he found out about the ZL-1 option and he wanted the baddest 'Vette available!" The other friend is Jimmy Stewart (not THE Jimmy Stewart) who grew up near John and has relayed to me many a harrowing rides in the car.

[PLATINUM6BBL]

I also remember John telling me that the car ran 10.90's with just the addition of a roll bar and slicks.

[PLATINUM6BBL]

the show card from the day when I first say the car. I actually heard it before I say it! It thumped windows hard enough in downtown Clarion to set off the buglar alarms in about every business it passed!

[PLATINUM6BBL]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

[PLATINUM6BBL]

the view to most

[Xplantdad]

Way cool pics Lon! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

[PLATINUM6BBL]

[ QUOTE ]
a 1966 L88 Corvette roadster. This car of course does not show up on any of the sales sheets as it was not sold to the public.

[/ QUOTE ]
I've seen a rollbar and intakte manifold that are believed to be from one of these cars.

[PLATINUM6BBL]

Thanks, Bruce. That car definately had my full attention that day. John is an easy fellow to talk to.

[markinnaples]

I have also seen this car in person and it's awesome. After talking to Mr. Maher at a car show when I lived in Pgh and heard the story about his relationship with Don Yenko and that this car was also used as a Gulf research vehicle, I believe him.

[Pantera]

Guys you have to remember that Tulsa was a hotbed of auto racing back then. The Gulf corvettes were wrenched on here very often. I remember stoping by and drooling over them at a Gulf service station that is now a Churches fried chicken outlet at I-44 @ Peoria. Bob Creitz and his chief mechanic Mike Sizemore would also have them at their shop over on Admiral. Creitz was a well known drag racer at the time. I grew up with Mike and Pat Sizemore. Bob Creitz lived across from me back in the early 60's. There was so much to see in and around Tulsa back then.

I just figgure the Blue L-88 vette was delivered here for Gulf to prepare to race or something like that. I got to see a lot of neat stuff back then. I was always out looking for neat cars and crusing the "resless ribbon" most every night.

If it rolled on wheels and was fast I probably saw it at one time or another. I grew up on 15th st. and remember a pair of SCCA race ready new 68 Z-28's at a alignment shop less than a mile from where I lived.

When I was younger, King Dave a pin striper lived on the other side of my block. He always had some of the neatest custom cars on his driveway to pinstripe and I would ride my bike around there and watch him for hours. That is probably what built my interest in cars so much when I was not even old enough to drive yet.

Pantera

[Bill Scott]

I grew up in the same area where this car come from. I worked at "Ferrante Oldsmobile" from May of 1969 to May of 1970 before joining the military, and helped crew the owners son Anthony's F-85 coupe Ultra Stock car from Vandergrift PA. Racing mainly at "Keystone Dragway" in New Alexandrea PA., where John used to race his Blue 68 L-88. The main reason I remember the blue L-88, was because it had the Black vinyl top on it. What a pretty car it was !!! It was the first time I'd seen a Vette with a vinyl top, so it always stuck in my mind. It's my understanding that when John traded the L-88 in for this ZL-1, he kept the roof from the L-88 for this car. The first time I ever seen the ZL-1, John had come into the Olds dealership to visit with Anthony, (Drag racing buddies), and as someone else said in a earlier post, You could hear it comming way before you ever seen it show up. Not only was every window in the dealership vibrating so hard I thought they would all shatter, but the ground all around was also vibrating like a mini earth quake was happening. Quite the impressive car for a young Chevy fan to witness. What always amazed me though is the fact that he could drive this car on the streets of Pennsylvania. There is no way this car could ever pass the strict inspection laws in PA., unless it was 100% from the factory. It might have something to do with him being a PA. State Trooper, but nobody seemed to question it's legality at the time. Us nobodys on the other hand, were getting tickets for having Air Shocks that when inflated, threw our headlights out of line, and heaven forbid if you put a set of glass packs or any mods at all to the exhaust system, and here John was driving around with virtually unrestricted headers and side pipes that literally rocked the ground you were standing on. Hell, we couldn't even have tinted windows legally. If we did tint our windows, and got away with it, we had to scrape it all off again when the next inspection come due, or they wouldn't pass it. Back to the ZL-1, I seen John a couple time drive it on some local hill climb runs in the area too, and it did rather well on the hills and road course. This was the first time I ever heard the car in competition other than at the drags, and it was very noisy and impressive on the road course's too. It was my understanding too, that he had all the original needed paper work for the car too till he got divorced from his first wife, and that she had done something very wrong to it. thus destroying a very important piece of automobile history in the process. A woman scorned, go figure, but she deserves to have her ass kicked for this one !!! Another thing I remember about the ZL-1 was the first time I saw John run it at Keystone, he was up against his old L-88 4 speed car, and the old L-88 won by quite a good margin. I'm not sure John had the car quite set up for the drags yet as I think it was the first time he took it out. Although both cars were very nice,the ZL-1 just had a way of out classing the old L-88 in every way !!!! Thanks for the memories John !!!!

[agtw31]

bill,
you have a pm

[SBR]

Stan is correct, most people do not realize that there were two types of L88 motors. The first design was made from 67 to June of 69 and was replaced with the second design motor for the remainder of the 69 production run that receieved the open chamber heads and several other improvements that were implemented on the ZL1s. I spoke with John at the 04 Vettefest and he sure did seem like a good guy. Interesting that the tank sheet differs from the yellow car.

[novadude]

Interesting. I am from Pittsburgh and have seen this car at local shows / cruises when it still had the Gulf stickers on it. I just assumed it was a nicely done tribute car.

[markinnaples]

Novadude, where are you from in Pgh?

I used to see that Vette all the time too, as stated above.

[rynoshark]

A big milestone today. It has been exactly 50 years since the Maher 1969 ZL1 rolled out of the factory on December 10, 1969!

[Tracker1]

A big milestone today. It has been exactly 50 years since the Maher 1969 ZL1 rolled out of the factory on December 10, 1969!

The car "might" be real, but the "original" documentation on that car is highly questionable

[rsinor]

The car "might" be real, but the "original" documentation on that car is highly questionable

Caveat emptor