69 Z28 w/ P-O-P on Ebay

[Hotrodpaul]

Check out this 69Z. Looks nice but block appears to be restamped and no pic of the P-O-P.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4616243499&fromMakeTra ck=true

Could this be another fake? I think we need a 69 Z-28 Registry to keep track of the real documented cars with history.

Paul

[olredalert]

-------If that car didnt start life as a Z28 somebody spent some time on it. Nice car, good color!!!.........Bill S

[Lynn]

I didn't see a pic of the protecto plate. Did I just miss it?

Lynn

[DZ Fool]

I dont like the gap in days between the casting date and assemble date of the engine. My car is a norwood car and it is K12 68 casting 1I19 is the assemble date and the car is dated last week of Nov 68

[GaryH]

It has to be real. It has a "Caution Fan" sticker. We need a Graemlin for that that says "Caution Fan Stickers Suck"

[RamAirDave]

Have to say, I love the Caution Fan sticker also. Few months back, did a Ford eng comp, so I got a little creative around the shop. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b217/RamAirDave/Random/Caution3.jpg

dave

[Mr70]

Some Sox fans were seen standing in line for Cubs season tickets here this week wearing those decals on their Sox jackets.

[Jonesy]

I have this car in my database. It came out of Minnesota with a real DZ engine in it that had the original stamping of V0501DZ. Now it shows up with POP. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

Us Minnesotans are pretty honest people http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Hotrodpaul]

Someone is willing to pay nearly $50,000 for it. Poeple need to educate themselves before laying down that kind of cash. I guess that is why the value of the real original documented Z-28's has gone through the roof.

Paul

[Lynn]

[ QUOTE ]
I have this car in my database. It came out of Minnesota with a real DZ engine in it that had the original stamping of V0501DZ. .... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

Good catch Mike. So, I am guessing the "original stamping of V0501DZ" was not represented as the car's original motor, correct? Wonder what VIN was on it. With the internet resources, it is a shame more guys aren't making efforts to reunite engines and cars.

Lynn

[TDW]

Well. The seller has been to this site to read the thread, according to the "ask seller a question".

[Blad Boys Cars]

I am the owner of this car and I would like to go on record as saying that I bought this car out of New Jersey under the impression that this is a z28. If you guys feel that this is a forgery, I would appreciate any help that I could get on finding out the full history of this car. I bought this car from an estate. The gentelman had passed away and his siblings are selling his muscle car collection. This car was in Jersey but the gentelman also had a place in Florida. I have not recieved the POP yet from the gentelmans brother who says that the POP is in Florida. If I do not recieve the POP soon, I feel that I might have to take some sort of legal procedure to correct this situation. I would appreciate any feedback that I can get.

By the way, I am from Ohio and some of us Ohioans are also honest people. I am not in the business to rip people off. I want to make this right and if this car is not the real deal then I apolagize for not having the proper resources for doing the proper homework on this car.

Thanks,

Nick Winblad
937-239-0400

[Jonesy]

Nick

All I can tell you is that I have that car in my database of 69 Camaros. I write down notes about them and log the VIN and cowl tag info. This car at one time was in Minnesota according to my info and had a DZ engine in it that was dated May 10th (V0501DZ). I wish I would have written more notes about the car.

When I read this in your ad: [ QUOTE ]
"You are looking at a all numbers matching 1969 Z28 Camaro. This vehicle is has had a frame off restoration that is about 8 years old. The car is a low mileage car with only 30450 documented miles. This car is a true all numbers matching authentic Z28 with PROTECTOPLATE."

[/ QUOTE ] I would think if there was POP, I would have noted it, but who knows when I got the info from this car.

I never said it wasn't a true z/28, although I have no proof that it is. I never said it wasnt a nice car.
I never said that you werent honest, I think the wording in your ebay auction is a very bold statement. If you bought it as a numbers matching z/28 with POP, the POP information will solve all the mysteries about the car's heritage. POP is also being faked, so I would be carefull with that also.

[Astock]

Why assure everyone on Ebay it's a real Z28 w/pop just come and see.If I flew there today,how would you prove it's a real Z with pop?

[Jonesy]

I has been in my database for about 5 years
This was the info I had on it:

1 = Chevrolet
2 = Camaro
4 = 8-cylinder engine
37 = coupe body
9 = 1969 model year
L = Los Angeles, CA assembly plant (Van Nuys)
516692 = vehicle serial number sequence

Decode for body number: 223540

01C = Built the Third week of January.
69-12437 = Coupe.
VN = Built in Van Nuys California.
727 = Standard Ivory/Black Bucket Seats.
65-65 = Car Color is Olympic Gold
M537 = internal plant scheduling code.

[rpoz11]

[ QUOTE ]
I have this car in my database. It came out of Minnesota with a real DZ engine in it that had the original stamping of V0501DZ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looking closely at what the seller has posted for an image of the VII27DZ, when I look closely, I see an image underneath the V, the 2, and the D....and possibly the Z

To me , it looks like it was re-stamped.

Jonesy...When you got the VO5O1DZ info, was it an 010 block, because the 386 blocks were far from being used at that time!

There is a guy who rumages thru one of our local swap meets EVERY MONTH and buys up all BB blocks, and 386,618, and 010's from 69 era, and he even advertises restampings for whatever you need. That guy worries me! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

Too bad this GOLD Z is in question, but I see issues with what is provided with the DZ id#ig given here.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Lynn]

Nick:

No one accused you of being dishonest. Hope you understand that. The closest thing I saw to an accusation was the statement made by one poster saying it was unclear whether you or a previous owner changed items on the car.

You can track the title history in a situation like this. While title information is normally confidential, you can make a request under certain circumstances.

In Oklahoma you can obtain title history of a vehicle "For use in connection with any civil, criminal, administrative or arbitral proceeding in any federal, state or local court or agency or before any self-regulatory body, including the service of process, investigation in anticipation of litigation..." The Texas law has a paragraph with the identical wording, so I am guessing both states passed legislation with wording "suggessted" by the Federal privacy laws. Most other states will be the same, or at least similar. I have just recently obtained title histories on several questionable cars in Oklahoma (which takes only a day or two) and am waiting on the history on one car from Texas (which will take 6 to 8 weeks).

Assuming you wish investigate the possibility of fraud in anticipation of litigation, you can start with New Jersey. The title history there will show the previous out of state owner, and you can then back track to that state (presumably Minn., but could have changed hands a couple of other times - who knows).

In investigating actual fraud, I have found most of the previous owners are more than happy to discuss the particulars of the car, and are appalled to find someone has used "their" car (these cars are like kids in a way - even when they are gone, we think of them as "ours") to commit fraud. You would be surprised what you can find out.

Obviously one of those previous owners swapped out the motor, and someone restamped the current motor.

And yes, as you may have guessed, I am an attorney. While I don't beleive in suing everyone who looks cross-eyed at you, I honestly beleive the fraud problem will only subside when the risk outweighs the benefit. The risk in this case is the risk of being sued. I normally don't handle litigation. I practice mainly in the area of Estate Planning. I am however, investigating a case right now that involves a swapped trim tag, which I consider more serious than a restamped engine. Once the necessary evidence is gathered, witnesses lined up etc, I will have no reservation hitting the offending party with a lawsuit. My client is quite anxious on this one. Can't share any more details for fear of hindering my current investigation, but once this one is in the books, you can bet I will share all the details, naming names, so that others can use the info to fight this kind of fraud.

Good luck on your car, both on the sale, and finding out whether it was misrepresented, and, if so, by whom. It is a very nice looking car, and frankly the gold color is kind of refreshing.

Lynn

[Blad Boys Cars]

I appreciate everyones feedback.

Thank you

[Hotrodpaul]

Overall, I think the car looks nice, I started the thread because the engine stamping looked suspect. It seems almost every 69 Z-28 I see on Ebay has issues from swapped trim tags, repo trim tags, restamped blocks, forged P-O-P's, and the list goes on and on. Many of the sellers are very honest people who bought the cars from dishonest sellers who knew about the cars history and "restoration" Because of the rising value of 69 Z-28's, you will see more of this. My recommendation to anyone entering the hobby would be to purchase and read as many reference books as possible and frequent this website and ask as many questions as you can BEFORE you lay down the cash for a car.

To the seller, it is difficult to document a Van Nuys built Z-28 since there are no X Codes on the trim tag. What I would recommend to document the car would be do the folllowing:

1) Talk to the previous owners and try to find the original owner. A title search may help but you may have to follow the rope as they say. That is how I found the original owner of my 69 SS L-78.

2) Any other documentation would be great to have. The original P-O-P would document the Engine, Trans assy date, Rear axle assy date and ratio, steering and radio options, etc. These can be reproduced and they look very good. Also LA built cars usually had build sheets placed on top of the gas tank before the tank was installed, and may have survived. If the tank has not been removed, it may still be there. There may be additional build sheets under the carpet, in the seat springs, etc. Norwood built cars very rarely come with build sheets.

3) Check the mechanicals of the car. The rear leaf springs should have 4 leafs although some high optioned cars may have 5 leafs. Take close up photos of all the stampings (Rear, Tranny, Engine) and post them on this site. Many experts here will check them out for you. For an original 4.10 ratio, the axle code will be BV as this should be a 12 bolt (12 bolts holding the cover and ring gear). This will also show on the P-O-P.
The tach should have an 8000 rpm scale with a 6000 rpm redline. Some older Z's have been documented with 7000 RPM scale tachs. The car will have a single 3/8" fuel line. Check to see if it is original, old looking, or has it been replaced? There will also be a 2" X 4" sized plate welded on the drivers side frame rail behind the rear tire for an attachment point for the dual exhaust hanger. All SS and Z-28 cars had these. There may have been a few LM-1 and other dual exhaust small blocks built with this hanger as well.

4) Check for other original Z-28 parts such as front disc brakes, 15 X 7" Rally Wheels date coded that match the car, US stamped master cylinder, 9204 Brake Booster, Harrison Radiator, proportioning valve located on frame rail under drivers seat, rear bumper guards, etc.

I you have any other questions on documenting your Z, give me a call at 713-306-1892. Thanks, and good luck.

Paul

[Rick H]

[ QUOTE ]
This car at one time was in Minnesota according to my info and had a DZ engine in it that was dated May 10th (V0501DZ).

[/ QUOTE ]

Hopefully that was just a typo because V0501DZ is not May 10th. That stamp is May 1st.

May 10th was a Saturday, May 1st was a Thursday. Just for info.


Rick H.

[Salvatore]

[ QUOTE ]
Some Sox fans were seen standing in line for Cubs season tickets here this week wearing those decals on their Sox jackets.

[/ QUOTE ]You are a SICK pup! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[Jonesy]

Yep, I meant May 1st. V0501DZ

[rsatz28]

3)The tach should have an 8000 rpm scale with a 6000 rpm redline. Some older Z's have been documented with 7000 RPM scale tachs.
4) proportioning valve located on frame rail under drivers seat
Paul

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with what has been said on this thread about checking for certain items. I will disagree with a couple of items that were mentioned.

According to Jerry MacNeish's book, there have been documented Z-28's w/o a tach. I have an X77 car that does not have a tach. In addition I have a Nov 68 built car with the propotioning valve attached to the booster/master cylinder. There are several pictures in his book showing the valve attached to the booster/master cylinder.

As Paul said buy a couple of books and ask questions.

[JRSully]

If you look at the stamp pad, you can obviously see the horizontal (sideways) decking machine marks from a modern decking machine kind of "swirly"

[Pacecarjeff]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This car at one time was in Minnesota according to my info and had a DZ engine in it that was dated May 10th (V0501DZ).

[/ QUOTE ]

Hopefully that was just a typo because V0501DZ is not May 10th. That stamp is May 1st.

May 10th was a Saturday, May 1st was a Thursday. Just for info.


Rick H.

[/ QUOTE ]
It is not competly unheard of for a block to be stamped on a Saturday. There were sometimes weekend shifts earning overtime. Especially in 69, after the labor strike. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[tirebird]

"To the seller, it is difficult to document a Van Nuys built Z-28 since there are no X Codes on the trim tag."

Boy, I can relate to that HotRodPaul. Years ago I sold a Van Nuys Z28 in excellent shape. I used a local consignment shop to avoid the "lookyloos", posers, pretenders, and wannabe joy riders who would lie just to get behind the wheel. It amazed me how many would be buyers didn't know that Van Nuys cars did not come with the "x" on the trim tag. They would argue with the consigner about the car.

I had the complete owner history of the car, no POP plate, and all the machine shop and body shop receipts for the frame off restoration performed several years earlier. I even had the original bill of sale. However, the last owner before me, rebuilt the engine and decked the block. So, the assembly date stamping was missing. That made it somewhat difficult to sell, despite all the other documentation. Even with machine shop receipts, showing the stamping number, buyers think you're guilty until proven innocent. Frankly, given the amount of fraud out there, I don't blame them.

I sometimes miss "my Z28", but I don't miss the two month marathon of selling it. In the end, honesty does pay, and the new buyer realized I was telling the truth and bought the car. He was also able to contact the machine shop, and the previous owners to verify it's authenticity which put him at ease.

[Hotrodpaul]

To anyone wishing to purchase a first gen Camaro, please visit the CRG site at www.camaros.org. (http://www.camaros.org.) There is a wealth of great information that is just a mouse click away.

Paul