Motor oil info

[Mad Dog]

Due to recent EPA regulations on motor oil, the oil manufactuers have dropped the zinc content in SAE certified motor oil. Zinc burns up over time and turns to ash which leads to increased emissions. Newer model cars with OHC's and roller style cams do not have any problems with these changes. Unfortunately, older engines with flat tappet cams need the zinc to properly lube the camshaft. You see, zinc additives in oil help lube direct metal to metal contact when it occurs.

I have been hearing these stories for a little while about flat tappet cams going flat and set out to find the truth. I emailed Royal Purple, Valvoline, Quaker State, Castrol, and Penzoil. I copied the same email to Comp Cams and Crane Cams. Everybody but Penzoil replied, and they all had the same response. They all recomend using a racing grade oil with flat tappet cams. A few companies told me that it was imperative that I switch from standard oil. Even Royal Purple told me that thier sae approved synthetic oil was not enough to protect a flat tappet cam.

Racing grade oil contains more zinc than current formulations of SAE approved motor oils. This is to help metal to metal contact that occurs at high rpm and long duration high heat races. Everyone I contacted told me that these oils ensure the life span of flat tappet cams.

The high zinc content has been shown to shorten catalytic converter life, and possibly shorten the life of O2 sensors, so you get to make the choice on which you want to replace. Screw in O2 sensors are easy and relatively cheap, and catalytic converters are not that bad either. I know which ones I will take the risk on.

To date, I have not found an oil additive that will replace the zinc that is designed for prolonged use. Many break in supplements and cam break in lubes have a high zinc content, but thier manufacturers do not recomend thier use past the first part of new engine break in.

Don't take my word for it, research it yourself. I'm just here to make sure you guys have heard about the situation.

[camarojoe]

I'd be interested to see the e mail replies you got from the oil and camshaft manufacturers.

[Belair62]

It's true....I think it's most critical at break in but I would sure like to see an additive of some sort...

[copo69]

I'd like to see those emails also.

[John Brown]

Thats the same info I got from my automatic trans builder, the zink is needed to protect the bushings. He suggested a quart of straight 30W oil in the trans then finish the fill with type F.

[JRSully]

Does the subject address synthetics at all.?

[Belair62]

Sully...I found this on another site I visit

Brand VI Flash Pour %ash %zinc
20W-50
AMSOIL 136 482 -38 <.5 ---
Castrol GTX 122 440 -15 .85 .12
Exxon High Performance 119 419 -13 .70 .11
Havoline Formula 3 125 465 -30 1.0 ---
Kendall GT-1 129 390 -25 1.0 .16
Pennzoil GT Perf. 120 460 -10 .9 ---
Quaker State Dlx. 155 430 -25 .9 ---
Red Line 150 503 -49 --- ---
Shell Truck Guard 130 450 -15 1.0 .15
Spectro Golden 4 174 440 -35 --- .15
Spectro Golden M.G. 174 440 -35 --- .13
Unocal 121 432 -11 .74 .12
Valvoline All Climate 125 430 -10 1.0 .11
Valvoline Turbo 140 440 -10 .99 .13
Valvoline Race 140 425 -10 1.2 .20
Valvoline Synthetic 146 465 -40 <1.5 .12
20W-40
Castrol Multi-Grade 110 440 -15 .85 .12
Quaker State 121 415 -15 .9 ---
15W-50
Chevron 204 415 -18 .96 .11
Mobil 1 170 470 -55 --- ---
Mystic JT8 144 420 -20 1.7 .15
Red Line 152 503 -49 --- ---
5W-50
Castrol Syntec 180 437 -45 1.2 .10 .095 % Phosphor
Quaker State Synquest 173 457 -76 --- ---
Pennzoil Performax 176 --- -69 --- ---
5W-40
Havoline 170 450 -40 1.4 ---
15W-40
AMSOIL 135 460 -38 <.5 ---
Castrol 134 415 -15 1.3 .14
Chevron Delo 400 136 421 -27 1.0 ---
Exxon XD3 --- 417 -11 .9 .14
Exxon XD3 Extra 135 399 -11 .95 .13
Kendall GT-1 135 410 -25 1.0 .16
Mystic JT8 142 440 -20 1.7 .15
Red Line 149 495 -40 --- ---
Shell Rotella w/XLA 146 410 -25 1.0 .13
Valvoline All Fleet 140 --- -10 1.0 .15
Valvoline Turbo 140 420 -10 .99 .13
10W-30
AMSOIL 142 480 -70 <.5 ---
Castrol GTX 140 415 -33 .85 .12
Chevron Supreme 150 401 -26 .96 .11
Exxon Superflo Hi Perf 135 392 -22 .70 .11
Exxon Superflo Supreme 133 400 -31 .85 .13
Havoline Formula 3 139 430 -30 1.0 ---
Kendall GT-1 139 390 -25 1.0 .16
Mobil 1 160 450 -65 --- ---
Pennzoil PLZ Turbo 140 410 -27 1.0 ---
Quaker State 156 410 -30 .9 ---
Red Line 139 475 -40 --- ---
Shell Fire and Ice 155 410 -35 .9 .12
Shell Super 2000 155 410 -35 1.0 .13
Shell Truck Guard 155 405 -35 1.0 .15
Spectro Golden M.G. 175 405 -40 --- ---
Unocal Super 153 428 -33 .92 .12
Valvoline All Climate 130 410 -26 1.0 .11
Valvoline Turbo 135 410 -26 .99 .13
Valvoline Race 130 410 -26 1.2 .20
Valvoline Synthetic 140 450 -40 <1.5 .12
5W-30
AMSOIL 168 480 -76 <.5 ---
Castrol GTX 156 400 -35 .80 .12
Chevron Supreme 202? 354 -46 .96 .11
Chevron Supreme Synt. 165 446 -72 1.1 .12
Exxon Superflow HP 148 392 -22 .70 .11
Havoline Formula 3 158 420 -40 1.0 ---
Mobil 1 165 445 -65 --- ---
Mystic JT8 161 390 -25 .95 .1
Quaker State 165 405 -35 .9 ---
Red Line 151 455 -49 --- ---
Shell Fire and Ice 167 405 -35 .9 .12
Unocal 151 414 -33 .81 .12
Valvoline All Climate 135 405 -40 1.0 .11
Valvoline Turbo 158 405 -40 .99 .13
Valvoline Synthetic 160 435 -40 <1.5 .12

[njsteve]

Looks like the Valvoline Race has the most Zinc at .20. Any info on Penzoil Race Oil?

[Belair62]

Thats all I have...thankfully I have Valvoline race in my fresh engine...roller cams don't have any problem on break in which is when the zinc becomes critical...its flat tappet that you really have to make sure you have plenty of manufacturer break in additive or they will be gone in minutes I hear...or just go with a roller. Long term I think we need to find an additive.

[Chevy454]

On BBC's w/flat tappets, it's *imperitive* to only break them in on the outer springs, or a set of actual break in springs...

[WILMASBOYL78]

[ QUOTE ]
On BBC's w/flat tappets, it's *imperitive* to only break them in on the outer springs, or a set of actual break in springs...

[/ QUOTE ]

I've heard of this before..is it really that "imperative" ??

wilma http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

[Belair62]

Good practice...few people do it...you roll the dice on full spring pressure.

[JRSully]

The guy who is breaking in my new, stock L78 motor said "YOU MUST" use only the outer spring for break in and insists on the 25w-50 Pennzoil race oil because it has a lot of zinc in it, he was up on this a long time ago, told me about the additives being left out of most oils these days except the race oils. He also went on to say that the factory break in GM product EOS, doesn't have the additives it used to. Just one man's opinion, but 30 years experience... SULLY

[NCGuy68]

Here in NASCAR country, many top notch engine builders assemble the motors in race or street condition and run them as is. No break-in required. They Highly recommend a true, 100% synthetic oil such as Amsoil, Royal Purple, etc, along with a high quality filter.

Its easy to make horsepower - can you make it last for 500 miles?

[Chevy454]

Knock on wood, I've been running Syntec for a few years with good luck...

[camarojoe]

OK so what is the recommendation for oil brand for a standard oil change on a flat tappet motor?.. not a break in, or fresh engine, but for regular usage.

[Salvatore]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On BBC's w/flat tappets, it's *imperitive* to only break them in on the outer springs, or a set of actual break in springs...

[/ QUOTE ]

I've heard of this before..is it really that "imperative" ??

wilma http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

[/ QUOTE ]Absolutely! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Belair62]

Joe I asked a local excellent engine builder that question to day...he shrugged his shoulders...there are no additives that are really worth a damn ...He actually rarely builds a flat tappet motor anymore. All rollers for the most part. It's important to know that it is mosy critical on break in though. Rollers are unaffected but I think we may need zinc in these old engines....are there any engine builders on this board that can shed some light ? I know the racing oild have some zinc in it still and also Rotella oddly enough.

[VintageMusclecar]

(yes, I'm posting this at 3:45 a.m. ain't insomnia a wonderful thing? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif )

For those of you who aren't familiar with this site...

Everything you ever wanted to know about oil but were afraid to ask (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/)

Rob is correct about BBC's (and just about any other engine for that matter) and break-in with flat tappet cams. It's a little more work to re-install the inner springs once break in is complete, but it beats the h*ll outta pulling the engine back down because of a wiped cam. You'd be suprised how much damage that material does to bearings, cranks, piston skirts and cylinder walls.

(Of course, if you have an extra $700+ burning a hole in your pocket, Schubeck lifters (http://www.schubeckracing.com/) are an option. Just drop these in and go racing, no break-in needed.)

Oh, fwiw...

There's some worthwhile power to be had with synthetic oil. How much? Depends on the oil.

Food for thought: I personally know of one big block Chrysler bracket engine that was switched from 50-weight racing oil to a fairly thin name-brand synthetic.

After the engine had fully warmed up with the synthetic oil in it, the owner found the idle speed had increased by roughly 300 rpm.

"Things that make you go hmmmmm" http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

Eric

[Pantera]

Just to bring up a different thought on the std -> or syn oil problem. I know on the Valkyrie Riders motorcycle forum, this question came up often. It was recommended that a new motor was broke-in on std oil for 5k to 10k miles and then switched to syn oil.

There was a problem with oil ring blowby when it was not done that way. It was felt the rings could not break in properly with syn oil. The zink cam lobe issue was not considered a problem though.


Pantera

[JoeG]

I agree Larry....
And it should be NOTED that breaking the engine with the outer springs or break in springs would be the SAFEST way to go when breaking in a flat tappet engine ,BUT not to cause a PANIC if you don't turn the valves down for a tight adjustment and really butter up the cam and lifters with the proper break in lube in race oil not synthetic oil and let it run according to each cam or lifter manufacturers recommendations--usually 2krpms for the recommended length of time usually 30min---Also leave the break-in lube in the engine for at least a few 2k miles keeping the engine under a light or moderate load --your engine should be fine------------Lot of guys wipe the cam lopes by adjusting VALVES down too tight on break in............

[RichSchmidt]

You can get the zinc back by using GM Engine Oil Suppliment,it is available from any GM dealer's parts department.I build many bigblock Chevy race motors with flat tappet cams and I have been preaching this practice for a while.I am still from the old school,so I have no problems running 20/50 weight race oil in my race engines so I just buy Valvoline race oil,but if I were running the tighter clearances that some builders use,or was inclined to try synthetic oil,then I would use the suppliment at every change with a lighter weigh oil.I run a flat tappet in my own 440 inch engine with 140# on the seat and 450# open spring pressures and never broke the cam in with just the outers,I just put the springs in as they were inteneded an broke the cam for about 15 minutes as most people would normally do.It has over 550run and a few hundred street miles on the engine and I think the pistons rings are going to die before the cam does.A soft ramp cam like a stock L78 or LS6 cam should have no problems with this method.

[JoeG]

[ QUOTE ]
...I just put the springs in as they were intended ...

[/ QUOTE ]
OOPS---I left that part out.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[elcamino]

I was using synthetic oil in my new 1975 Chevy Blazer and my 1973 Chevelle SS 350 back when they were new. I put way over 100,000 miles of the SS 350 Chevelle and the motor was like new when I sold it in 1977 and got a new Monte Carlo.

Amsoil (Superior,WI) came out in 1972 and Mobil 1 in 1973. I first used Mobil 1 then switched to Amsoil in 1975 and have used it ever since.

20W-50 Amsoil in for sale section (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=193860&page=0&vc=1&PHPSE SSID=61adf59c73369a3ccfa47ced4cd8cede#Post193860)

btw-You would be surprised at how many mechanics and engine builders know little to nothing about lubrication. I have seen them spend $1000 of dollars rebuilding an engine and recommend the cheapest quality oil for use. So take what they say with a grain of salt. I had one tell me once that oil was oil, pick whatever one you want and go with it.

[camarojoe]

OK, I walk into AutoZone tomorrow after work to buy oil for my Deuce, what should I buy?

[JoeG]

Valvoline race--I've used
Quaker state--I've used
Wolf's Head--Ive used
The synthetics--very good
K-MART mechanics oil treatment ---very good
Stp oil treatment--I've used
GM oil treatment---I've used
Bertoilli virgin---lunch

Everybody has their own witches brew.....All above have performed well and tasted good...

[Chevy454]

I do know that 99% of the cam manufacturers get their blanks from the same place, and that within the past few years their has been a decrease in quality in these blanks...I've heard that from different cam mans, so either they're corroborating their stories or there is something behind it. I know of some "Pure Stock" BBC's that have had cam failures (me included) using the tried & true methods of break in, with blueprint cams and stock (120-ish) spring pressures...it's a very intermittent thing.

But I wonder if a lot of solid cam failures can be attributed to poor lash maintenance? As the lash widens the abuse on the lobes/lifters increases exponentially...I've made it a habit to check my lash religously.

[Belair62]

Camarojoe..I don't think you really have to wory all that much about the cam after break in...I use Valvoline racing anyway....JoeG...go with the extra virgin and some Kalamatas http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[RichSchmidt]

Everybody blamed the problem on low quality Mexican lifters during the "lifter shortage" a few years back.Now you mention low quality cams.Every cam manufacturer seems to be aligning with the quality of new oil being the cause of the problem.I never had any problems with any of the flat tappet race engines I have built over the last 10 years despite the fact that most of them are out there being whipped to 7500rpm within less then 1 mile of fresh assembly with no break in other then a 20 minute warm up and an oil change.Somehow guys with $100 a set lifters on .450" smallblock street cams with synthetic oil are tearing up cam lobes even after careful break in,but I run $60 a set stock replacment speedpro lifters in our race stuff and dont even break it in and nothing fails.As for valve lash adjustments,it might make sense but 3/4 of these failures are on hydraulic cammed engines anyway,and the truth is that any street engine should be able to go years between valve lash adjustemnts if the engine is built right.I have about 500 runs over 7 years of racing on my current 427 with a .620" lift flat tappet cam and I checked the valve lash 3 times,and the last time I only did it out of curiosity right before I swapped out the valve springs.Never once did the valves actually need adjustment,but thats a whole different story.

Here is a great story about this.I got a call last summer from one of my racing buddies who had a freind who wanted to know why his 454 street rod engine ate 2 cams in one year.I told my friend that there was a good chance that it was the oil he was using,and my friend called me back and told me that I was full of crap and he had the best mobile 1 oil he can buy in the engine.He replaced his otherwise fine running very low miles 454 with a brand new GM crate 454 because somebody told him that old 454's had lifter boss alignment problems{at which time I mentioned to my friend that I would like to know how such a badly aligned block ran for 300,000 miles in a pickup truck before it went into a hot rod}.after it was all over,the guy tried to get crane cams to warranty the cam so that he could put the engine back together and sell it,and their first question was "what oil were you using"they sent him a new cam because they admitted that they werent advising customers of this problem at the time he bought his cam,but the fact is that nobody wants to believe that $7 a quart oil can actually be bad for your engine.

[Seattle Sam]

[ QUOTE ]
Looks like the Valvoline Race has the most Zinc at .20. Any info on Penzoil Race Oil?

[/ QUOTE ]

I just visited the valvoline web site to figure out where to get their race oil. I found they have three types of race oil, conventional, eynthetic (both listed as "not street legal") and "VR" oil. ALL THREE list zinc at 0.12, not 0.20 as stated above. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Seattle Sam]

The Pennzoil 25-50 GT has NO zinc listed on its data sheet, and claims to be compliant with the current API SJ standards.

[Salvatore]

So what oil is good for us to use in our street motors. I have always used Castrol 10w-40. No good anymore? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[Belair62]

This is supposedly a real concern on engine/cam break in...but I use Valvoline Racing all the time which has a good amount in it..GM engine oil supplement also is supposed to have plenty of zinc but don't quote me on it.

[tirebird]

All the research I've read so far indicates that this is a break in problem,..not a running problem with already broken in engines. For my recent rebuild, we used Castrol 10-40 with moly lube and GM break in additive. Changed the oil at 500 miles to plain Castrol 10-40, and at 3k to Mobil 1 10-30. No cam problems and no oil burning.

My question still is if the oil marketers can't use zinc and phosphate, what are they using to reduce wear and are these substances just as good as ZDDP?

[tirebird]

I wrote to Mobil 1 about zinc/phosphorous levels in it's motor oil and received the following response.

"Mobil1 MX4T 10W40 and Mobil1 V-TWIN 20W50 motorcycle motor oils, Mobil1
15W50 Extended performance and Mobil1 5W40 diesel motor oils contains
the higher levels of zinc and phosphorous for your cams. The new energy
conserving motor oils do have reduced levels of zinc/phos however, they
typically do not have any adverse effects on cams unless you are
running
higher valve spring pressures. I would suggest you stick with the
product listed above if you are concerned about the phos/zinc issues."

[Mr70]

I wanted to add this link onto this topic as I found it useful and informative.
More Than You Ever Wanted To Know About Motor Oil (http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/oilinfo1.htm)

[Chevy454]

There's also a good article in one of the latest Hot Rod magazines...they talk to oil mans and cam mans...pretty interesting...