Possible COPO on ebay

[Leonard]

Found this on ebay. I spoke with seller. X44 car. Ex race car. He informed me of cowl induction piercing in firewall. Has speedometer cable piercing in firewall for muncie trans. Has big block springs and heater box. Im 98% sure this is a COPO. What caught my attention was the info on trim tag. Anyone looking for a COPO should check this one out. :burnout http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=4637491226&sspa gename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT

[TDW]

It says "listing removed" when I go to the link.

[Mr70]

Here it is.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayIS...item=4637491226 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay .com%3A80%2Fws%2Fsearch%2FSaleSearch%3Fsofocus%3Db s%26satitle%3D4637491226%26sacat%3D-1%2526catref%253DC5%26sofindtype%3D0%26from%3DR7%2 6nojspr%3Dy%26pfid%3D0%26fsop%3D1%2526fsoo%253D1%2 6fcl%3D3%26frpp%3D50%26fvi%3D1&item=4637491226)

[Tommy_Mathison]

No power disc brakes in the front though....

Tommy M.

[COPO PETE]

10 body #'s away from my white car. Likely sold in Michigan. I'd bet on it being a COPO car. Lots and lots of work!
Peter

[396L35]

[ QUOTE ]
No power disc brakes in the front though....

Tommy M.

[/ QUOTE ]
Most race cars dont have power brakes due to lack of vacum so they would install drums to stop... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[camarojoe]

[ QUOTE ]
No power disc brakes in the front though....

Tommy M.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not so sure about that, looks like a power disc brake #309 master cylinder to me, only the booster is missing. Its definitely not a drum brake master cylinder.

[Leonard]

Joe, talked to seller this morning about disc brakes. He stated that there were drum brakes on car. I told him to check upper control arms(upper a-frames) to see if there was a hole pierced and threaded for disc brake line retaining bracket(drum brakes do not have this)and he mentioned that he had problems with the brake lines in the past because of drum brakes. He did not tell me what the problem was.I also noticed the wider master cylider but forgot to have him get the # from it for me.

[Rick H]

This guy thinks he might have a possible COPO because someone looked at 13 hazy pictures and made an "educated" guess that it's a COPO????

Must be the reason his NO RESERVE auction now has a statement with a $20,000 dollar ending price.

"My Brother said due to numerous phone bids he will accept twenty thousand to end auction". I bet he would, I know I would if it was mine and someone offered me $20k. Can you say SOLD!?

Could be a BB car, could be a COPO, heck it could be the rare and ellusive X44 Z/28. Why not, it has a Z/28 emblem on the tailpanel.

All BS aside, I truely hope someone looks at this car in person before they buy to make absolutely sure what they are getting. Ebay is a haven for junk, fakes and wannabees.

Rick H.

p.s. got feeling we'll be seeing an auction ending early because item is not longer for sale.

[Leonard]

Rick H, im the someone that looked at the picture and had a phone conversation with the seller. Yes, this car needs to be inspected well before any $$ has passed hands. From my conversation and info obtained, i realized it had some key items that make it a POSSIBLE COPO. BE rear is gone, daul exhaust plate is gone, It has the cowl induction piercing in correct location along with muncie trans speedocable piercing in firewall, and info found on trim tag that is consistant with most other COPOs built that time frame. Any info i have posted on this site is base on my opinion(from research and data).All i am saying is, if someone is looking for a COPO on a lower $$ scale, They should look at this car and inspect it well.It has some of the key items found on COPOs. IMO.

[SuperNovaSS]

How does a dual exhaust plate that is welded to the frame disappear?


Jason

[69LM1]

The Tubbing maybe? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[SuperNovaSS]

Ooops, that makes since.


Jason

[camarojoe]

Say what you will, but based on what I see and what Leo has come up with, there's enough evidence to warrant a closer look. If the cowl induction piercings are original, and the tags haven't been messed with, an X44 with original cowl induction can be a real good clue, as the only way an X44 could have had factory C.I. is if it was a COPO. Add to that the big block heater core, the 309 master cylinder, the fact its 10 numbers away from a known COPO, and you have quite a few things that point in the right direction. Yeah, it would be great if there was a stack of original paperwork, and "documentation" but usually thats not gonna be there on a ratty old car, so you gotta look for all the right clues that are still there. If anyone's near Eastlake Ohio and has some $ to play with, this is definitely worth a closer look and could very well be the real deal. If everything looks right, it could be another real COPO car found for a price that is within reach for someone. JMO.

[396L35]

I would have to agree with Joe on this call. Most of the COPO camaros were bought with the intension of racing... Some cars were lucky and not cut on, but some cars were successful in racing and updated so they could go faster... This car has some interesting points and knowing it was built 10 cars away from a documented COPO raises an eye... I just hope this doesn't get as bad as it did with that Yenko car a year ago or so... Good luck to whoever ends up with that ratty "POS".. I just love how they mounted the guages in the car!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gifhttp://i21.ebayimg.com/02/i/07/07/fa/1a_12.JPG

[COPO PETE]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gifhmmmmmmm http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif Four body #'s off the other Funston Chev sold COPO. Not saying it is either, but like Joe says. Worth taking a look! If you can get it cheap, it could get interesting!
Peter

[Mike]

Getting it cheap now is probably out of the question! Once you make it public to the 5 billion people on this board the chance of getting a deal is lost. It's sad because you probably could of had the car for $5K if you didn't go public with the info and let the owner know what he "potentially" has.

I guess we didn't learn anything from the Yenko fiasco in upstate NY... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif Thanks for thinking of the little guys.

Mike

[Rick H]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess we didn't learn anything from the Yenko fiasco in upstate NY... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif Thanks for thinking of the little guys.

Mike

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah come on Mike you don't have $20k laying around for the purchase and another $100k plus for the restoration? Doesn't everybody have that kind of money to blow on a pile of iron oxide? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

You can think of this in two ways. One, somebody might, repeat MIGHT get a great deal on a possible COPO or two, someone will get a good screwing, excuse me a good lesson on how not to buy a car. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

A $200k car for $20k or a $1000 car for $20k. Crap shoot on this one. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

One question I have, has anybody seen a picture of the cowl induction piercing? Reason I ask is because I wonder were he ran the plumbing for those monster gauges? Obviously not through the factory auto speedo hole because it still has a plug in it. Would like to see the hole they went through and the cowl induction piercing.

Rick H.

p.s. Still think it will not sell. To much interest.

[JQ]

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gifhmmmmmmm http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif Four body #'s off the other Funston Chev sold COPO. Not saying it is either, but like Joe says. Worth taking a look! If you can get it cheap, it could get interesting!
Peter

[/ QUOTE ] I just noticed that it was that close to my car as well. Defiantly worth taking a serious look. JQ

[Leonard]

Pardon me for not being greedy. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[Leonard]

I thought i was thing of EVERYONE on this one. Some of you on this board complain that you do not get a chance at rare cars like this because some of us on this board keep that info to ourselves. Now someone like me gives everone a chance to get a possible COPO and someone like you complains? Its a no win situation. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif And yes, i thought the seller had a right to know that his car may be a possible COPO. There are alot of us on this board that are here to help people out. Answer questions pertaing to Supercars. Thats what this hobby should be about. Not personal gain $$. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Mike]

Leo,

Sorry to have put a negative turn on your otherwise good natured and well intended post. Pretty naive of me to hope that no one else noticed the big block heater cover, X44, master cylinder, and other stuff that points this car to being a possible COPO. For me its not about greed, its about being able to justify the purchase. Obviously, risking $5K is alot easier than risking $20+K, especially for a car like this that needs a ton of work.

Sorry if I offended you! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Mike

[69LM1]

Leo,
Don't sweat it. Thanks for the info sharing.
Rich

[king_midas]

I think the point was that broadcasting this and letting the cat-out-of-the-bag may put the car out of reach of the ordinary Joe that would like to have it. A guy that would do his own work, etc...

This will probably go to a "more money than sense" guy regardless of your post anyway; someone that can gamble on what he is or isn't getting, and pay more than it's worth in order to take the car from others that may have limited funding.

Don't get me wrong-- I'm not complaining. That's life, that's business, that's the way it goes.

Being originally from Ohio, rare cars could be had in dilapidated condidion all over the place-- Not all that uncommon. I've posted about the cars I passed up and/or personally witnessed being destroyed before. Because of the internet, the days of barn finds or diamonds in the rough are over. I've said it before, and I'll say it again-- Clones, clones... Who can blame people?

And maybe the Honda fart-pipe kids are all-right after all-- They just want what they can't afford, and do hot-rodding with what they have to work with. I guarantee if Civic hatchbacks were more expensive that complete POS, terd-with-corns-in-it basket case F-bodies, they'd be figuring out how to weld and get parts for the '69.

Just my $.02...

Peace out.

[69hurstSC]

shes taking off. 15K

[Mark_C]

[ QUOTE ]
One question I have, has anybody seen a picture of the cowl induction piercing? Reason I ask is because I wonder were he ran the plumbing for those monster gauges? Obviously not through the factory auto speedo hole because it still has a plug in it. Would like to see the hole they went through and the cowl induction piercing.

Rick H.

p.s. Still think it will not sell. To much interest.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://i7.ebayimg.com/03/i/07/10/64/a5_3.JPG

[69LM1]

And were done. Auction ended early.

[Rick H]

[ QUOTE ]
And were done. Auction ended early.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some things are just so predictable.

Rick H.

[69motion]

i saw this car and also the be rear i spend hours trying to find deals im sick of people telling this board about all the rare items on ebay so the rich can buy them up any feedback thanks jeff

[ANDY M]

Ebay gets scanned daily by lots of people.
This site has nothing to do with any auction ending early, IMHO.

[69motion]

andy what i meant was that alot of people who dont have time to find items get leads from people on this board it hurts people like me who spend hours finding rare parts http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[COPO]

The car was purchased by a member of another board.

[69hurstSC]

is the verdict in? COPO on Non-COPO???

[Jeff H]

You have to make a quick move on something like that but is it really worth the risk if it turned out to be a good fake? It's the small guy that will get burned the most if he makes a hasty decision. A car like that one is probaly best left to someone who has the financial resources to bring it back to it's original condition. Even then, without paperwork or original drivetrain it will always be a non matching car with unknown history. I wouldn't sweat it .

[king_midas]

I just find that the irony within the hobby eating itself is just too much. I mean honestly, even for someone with too much money, that car was a major headache and a laughable expenditure if it went for $20k. I've seen better candidates for restoration and re-assembly at the grocery store containing soup and cola. It will be re-bodied, and that's that, so why pay $20k for it in the first place?

Jeff H - That statement about not numbers matching... You couldn't be more wrong. It will be numbers-matching when done, and probably sold to someone as a gennie. Ahhh, Chevy muscle... A hustler's paradise. And so rewarding. If you're at all concerned about matters such as this, you should be buying AMC's. Still cheap, and great performers. Everything you need to know is in the VIN, and they don't have serial #'s on the motors!

BTW-- Don't worry about the rust. The best part of Ohio is that they still have titles, so how much easier could it be?

[Leonard]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

[Charley Lillard]

Why restore it back to stock ? Restore it as a tubbed COPO. Put a 572" engine in it and make it look like a 427. Put the big meats on the back. Would be a fun drag car.

[Jeff H]

[ QUOTE ]
Why restore it back to stock ? Restore it as a tubbed COPO. Put a 572" engine in it and make it look like a 427. Put the big meats on the back. Would be a fun drag car.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I was thinking too. Day2 COPO race car. But that body definitely needs some rust repair. As for the car being resold as a number's matching COPO, it's now in my database with notes so I'll know it's history when it comes back around.

[PeteLeathersac]

I'm not saying the buyer's planning this and nothing personal against him....but if it is confirmed as a real Copo car maybe it could become 2 cars? . One original Copo car modified-tubbed drag car....missing tags of course but with a sworn letter confirming it was originally a Copo car. . The second car a rebody using the identity and tags....it seems like there's a big market of guys who could care less about rebodys and are happy w/ 'matching numbers' even though it's all restamps etc? .

~ Pete

[JChlupsa]

A lot of fast triggers as to what happens to the car. I agree with Charley restore it Tubbed and a built engine and go have fun with it.

[396L35]

I would have to agree with Charley and Jeff, restore it back as a race car and run the s--t out of it.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[69hurstSC]

before jumping the gun on making it a day 2 COPO i would trace every last detail of this cars history. i sat here (on this board) and asked a general question about anyone remembering a 1970 GTO Judge out of Albertville, Alabama and ended up finding the original owner with original documents. the car hadn't been in Alabama since 1972! there are people out there who know the history of this car (COPO or not) and all that MUST be addressed before deciding on the fate of said camaro!

[king_midas]

Why pay $20K for a car your going to make a Day 2 COPO out of?

Restoration costs of even making a presentable race car out of that thing aside, why make a drag car out of it when you can find 50 others that you don't have to pay $20K for, but $2K. I do know that how fast you go is directly proportional to what you spend, so once again, it seems like a bad investment.

Where one is starting from with that car, just about any old leftover drag car/rustbucket will do, and you could buy one of those repro tags and say it's COPO regardless, because none of the COPO parts are there to contradict.

Hence the saga comes full-circle.

I need help.

[69LM1]

King Midas,

So, if you got a 69 CoPo drivetrain, even the BE rear, and put it in a six banger, would that make it a CoPo?

My point is that the cars are the same, only the drivetrains and some other associated parts were special (as far as I know).

Which leads to the argument that the 6cyl "Clone" car was never a CoPo and never will be. Which of course begs the question, if this car discussed here was a real CoPo, won't it always be one, even if it had a six banger in it?

For someone like me, this would have been a deal. I can't fork up the 185K for a finished CoPo, but could afford 20k for a project. I could work on it for a few years and in the end have the same car many of those out there do, a NOM original CoPo car. How much metal repalcement is too much? Many CoPo's out there have new quarters, and in some cases floors.

In the end though, I do kinda like Charley's idea of a day two, real CoPo, that you could run the snot out of at the track!

IMHO,

Rich

[Charley Lillard]

So you can pay 2K for a 6 cyl car or 20K for what we think is a COPO. It costs the same dollars to build either car. One is gonna be worth alot more when it is done. I would much rather pay the 20K for the COPO. So you then throw 50K at building it...Pretty cool COPO for 70K. The trick is proving it is a COPO.

[Jeff H]

I think a COPO with race history would be much cooler restored to raced condition. Especially a car like this since the original drivetrain is gone and the car might have real race history. But that's my point of view and I'm sure other people would restore it back to original. Should be cool to see what happens.

[396L35]

[ QUOTE ]
I think a COPO with race history would be much cooler restored to raced condition. Especially a car like this since the original drivetrain is gone and the car might have real race history.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thats what Bill thought with the #1 ZL1, hell I would take that one over a restored one anyday... By the way, where are these $2000.00 69 camaro's at???? All the trash I see starts around $3500.00 for a shell... Good luck whoever ended up with the car... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[bkhpah]

Were are all the 2K 69 Camaro's at?...BKH http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[396L35]

Brian I'm in line first!!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[bkhpah]

I'm 1 minute behind...I bet its a long one...BKH http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[king_midas]

$2k was a number that I've seen totally wasted rot-boxes for sale for. Swamp finds, etc... Arbitrary, yes. But, about what you were getting with that supposed COPO. There were NO usable panels-- None.

My point is that a COPO starts out life no differently than any other "body in white". Essentially, at that point, any '69 camaro will do. So, paring this down even further, it seems confusing to me what you're actually paying for in a case like this. If someone can clue me in, be my guest.

What are you paying for? The trim tag? Seems pretty stupid to me when they can be had from "other" sources.

[Charley Lillard]

The "other" source for a trim tag is a repo trim tag. This trim tag on this car is part of the guts of this car and helps make it what it is. From the indicators on the car it appears this car came with a 427 from the factory. Most of the people that frequent this site are here because of that type of car and this kind of find is what it is all about. You can go get a body in white and build a nice clone but when you are done you still have a clone. I looked back at the auction and there are plenty of usable panels. This is not even close to a swamp find.....And you get a free trailer.

[firstgenaddict]

A COPO is a COPO no matter whether it has an engine, or anything left for that matter just as a base V8 is a base V8 whether it has tags that say it is a Z28 or a SS or even if it has a MN 427 in it that has a vin that matches the cars VIN it is what it left the factory as... Anyone can clone a car or swap the tags (well almost) but it takes someone who is determined and appreciates them to bring one back from the dead.

[Steve Shauger]

It seems from your comments your rather a newbie in the camaro arena. Before you make comment about the purchase of the car like " What are you paying for? The trim tag? Seems pretty stupid to me " Educate your self in COPO/ Super Car world.

In my opinon, it was a great opportunity to own a COPO rather inexpensively. Yes it needs a lot of work, but to each his own. To some, it brings a great sense of pride and satisfaction resurrecting these basket cases.

Also lets not speculate that this is going to rebodied car at some point. I am sure the new owner would appreciate our support rather than bashing.

Who knows the history of this car, it may turn out to have a historical background.

[sean70ss]

It looks like it might have a real good cahnce on being the scuncio sponsored race car and it will be restored to the way it was raced if it is all correct to the research according to the new owner should be pretty cool. Sean http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[396L35]

[ QUOTE ]
This is not even close to a swamp find.....And you get a free trailer.

[/ QUOTE ]
No Charley!!! The trailer was $20,000 and you get a free car... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Stefano]

Less than 1/2 of a % (percent) of all '69 Camaros were ever produced with a COPO performance option. Uncovering a "new find" is a big deal, in my book, as is having the opportunity to bring one back to its former prominence.

[sean70ss]

[ QUOTE ]
It looks like it might have a real good cahnce on being the scuncio sponsored race car and it will be restored to the way it was raced if it is all correct to the research according to the new owner should be pretty cool. Sean http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Just want to be clear not saying it is the scuncio race car but could be a chance it came from scuncio. With more research we will let you know still a copo though. sean

[Mark_C]

Doubt it was ordered by Scuncio. It might have ultimately been sold by them, but theres a better than 90 percent chance it was originally ordered by Funston Chevrolet in Detroit, and any paperwork (window sticker, shipper forms etc.) would show them as the original dealer. If Scuncio sold it in a dealer trade then the only evidence would be the original bill of sale. Besides Funston is less than 100 miles away from where it sits today, while Scuncio is probably 800 miles or so. Bet the car hasn't left the SE corner of Michigan/NW corner of Ohio its whole life.

[Chevy454]

I'd go along with that...only 10 cars away from COPO_Pete's Funston COPO and only 4 off another...

[Lynn]

[ QUOTE ]
Why pay $20K for a car your going to make a Day 2 COPO out of?
.....

Where one is starting from with that car, just about any old leftover drag car/rustbucket will do, and you could buy one of those repro tags and say it's COPO regardless, because none of the COPO parts are there to contradict.

Hence the saga comes full-circle.

I need help.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't tell you how distrurbing that statement is. Especially the part about "buy one of those repro tags and say it's COPO". That is what we call fraud. I won't even get into the whole argument about there being no such thing as a repro tag, only forgeries.

Lynn Bilodeau

[Xplantdad]

[ QUOTE ]
Less than 1/2 of a % (percent) of all '69 Camaros were ever produced with a COPO performance option. Uncovering a "new find" is a big deal, in my book, as is having the opportunity to bring one back to its former prominence.

[/ QUOTE ]

That kind of puts it all in perspective...less than 1/2 of one percent...WOW. Good luck to the new owner http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[COPO PETE]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd go along with that...only 10 cars away from COPO_Pete's Funston COPO and only 4 off another...

[/ QUOTE ]
That being said.... I am told it is one body # off a Scunico race car COPO..... could be sister cars! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[HS PROFESSOR]

20K for a ex race car that needs everything?? very very steep. 20k for a copo ex race car. a very very good deal.how if at all can it be PROVEN to be a real copo?? if it cant its just another hacked up 69.

[Mark_C]

Was that Scuncio race car originally a 10-10 car? If so check the body number again, cause its quite a few more than 1 number away. I know about two 10-10 Scuncios with slightly higher body numbers one built a couple of days before this car and one probably the day after. I'd still place my money on Funston as being the ordering dealer.

[MikeA]

I think someone does have the COPO Camaro VINs.

[69hurstSC]

good buy!! after all that nonsense with the Baldwin Motion Nova that was all BS its nice to see something thats legit!

[raw muscle cars]

would the vin to the car be on copo connections old website if all his info was still on there?
________________________________
1970 hemi cuda fc7
the poison dart 700hp injected dart
1967 mercury wagon 428 orig
1963 olds F84 215 aluminium v8

[Mark_C]

The info is still there, but the VIN on this Ebay car isn't listed. VINs without tag info is pretty much useless though.

[JQ]

Was this car ever verified as a copo??? JQ.