Factory Stockers Unite!!!

[supergonzo]

Ok we are all set to go for the June 11th Factory Stock Drags at Englishtown, NJ.

We got a car show, a video tape crew, girls, trophies, interviews, after event dinner planned, girls, car magazine writers, chassis dyno, oh yeah almost forgot Girls....

And
How about this??, save all of your time slips, whomever has the best Reaction Time in Factory Stock will get a special trophy, and a picture with the trophy girl of your choice at the christmas tree!

Not from a test and tune, but one of the best of three shootouts.

Gates open at 9am, park by the rest of the muscle cars in the middle of the pit parking lot, and Yes there is a tech inspection after park your car, One of us will be handing out a driver information sheet which the track announcer uses and one of the guys with the Blue Tech Crew T-Shirts will tech you in.

Everyone should READ the Factory Stock rules carefully, if you dont make Tech you can STILL run, but you will be Bracket racing and NOT in the same lanes or results with the Factory Stockers.


READ here:

http://forums.factorystockmusclecars.com/eve/forums/a/frm/f/352100271

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

I attended the first event - bummer about the rain - but had a fun time. I was reading the rules and don't recall these paragraphs from prior years. Could you explain a little about the vacuum test?

I'm a bit concerned about some of the parameters about not idling etc... When I was there b4, my car was running like shitt because I'm not an experienced tuner, (special thanks to the two guys from Kansas who really helped me out http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif ). Is it possible to get bounced out of a class because your car surges or doesn't idle - even though it has stock TRW 11.0:1 pistons (+30thous) and the GM blueprint cam? I have a factory stock car, and don't want to be put into a fast class.


Excerpt from the rules page:

"Your car must still look and sound and idle like a factory stock 60's muscle car. This means you must be able to idle at 900 rpm in gear, if not you'll be put in F.A.S.T class. If your car surges (because your cam is too wild at idle), you will be moved into F.A.S.T class

Any car that runs faster than 12.30 in Factory Stock class will be subject to mandatory vacuum test of 15" of vacuum at 900 rpm, we will check the compression of your engine, to see if you are over stock compression by more than a point, we will check the cubic inches of your motor to make sure you are not more than 10 cubic inches over stock."

[supergonzo]

"When I was there b4, my car was running like shitt because I'm not an experienced tuner"


The first event you are talking about was in 2004. Are you telling me your car still can't idle after 2 years??? But you are thinking of bringing it anyway??

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

No, I'm not saying that, (although I have not started it this year yet, so I'm hoping all is cool!), I brought my car to your first event to work out some bugs, and I'm sure others might do the same - just wanting to have some fun!!

I'm really just inquiring about the rule changes. I'm not always clear about what's being tested by requiring a certain idle, at a certain rpm, a certain vacuum, etc... I'm obviously not a seasoned drag racer, and I don't know what a p&g meter is, or why cranking compression is checked, etc... Just want some clarity, before I go smoke em up http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[supergonzo]

Well Marlin we were going on the honor system that people who had "stock" muscle cars would bring "stock" muscle cars.

But low and behold, racers are racers, so some cars were not as exactly as stock as most average muscle cars fans remember them. So without trying to dampen anybody's enterprising spirit and still have a race that is true to the name "Factory Stock" we had to institute a few rule changes. I think they are liberal and allows the guys who have done some mods some leeway. This also does not discourage the average car show guy who represents most of our events participants.

So as an example if you are running 12.00's and can't idle below 2000 rpm without stalling......are you really stock??? I say no and so does virtually everyone else who participated, and all the BS you can come up with doesn't fool anyone. I am not talking to you personally of course.

If you truly have a stocker with a few mods you have nothing to worry about. The rules are self explanatory I think. We want everyone to come out an enjoy themselves and have a good time, its not for somebody to is trying to make a name for themselves or somehow change history. History itself has already demonstrated what the quickest Factory Stockers were. This is for enjoyment purposes only.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Ok, I understand - I guess. I am planning to build my next Yenko deuce as a Certified Pure Stocker by following the rules laid down by the PSMCDR crew in Stanton, MI. I've been to several of those events, and I really enjoy them. I think there is a distinct challenge to get the most out of a pure stocker by putting the time and effort into the buildup that GM couldn't do within their mfg parameters.

I think that what you are saying though, is that if I get all my ducks in a row by blueprinting everything to GM spec's, etc... that I might be disallowed as a pure stocker bec/ I'm faster than history? I'm not trying to be a hard asss here, but it sort of defeats the goal of trying to make your car faster! I wasn't around back in the 'day', so I don't have a basis for what historical cars ran - but I know that I (with help) have dramatically improved my own et & mph compared to my own history, and I plan to keep improving.

BTW: If you put me through a tear down, I would pass - but I know that my car will never idle smooth at 900rpm. I think the spec is actually 1000, and the best I can get it too right now is around 1200 - which is just fine since that's my launch rpm sometimes http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[supergonzo]

Marlin, the stock LT-1 camshaft that was in your car was a solid, with a LSA of 116 degrees and a lift of .435 I believe. If THAT cam doesn't idle like a kitten purring quietly then NO camshaft does. Or you got the wrong cam.

I didn't say blueprinting your motor would be illegal, and todays technology has certainly improved ET's over the years.

I DID say that if you are running in the 12.20's your getting tested, and if you are running better than 12.00's your car is no longer a true representation of what a "stock" factory muscle car would run. I think we both know that to be true.
==========================
Everybody wants to go faster naturally, but you can adjust the timing only so much, and only breathe on the motor so much, and tune till you are blue in the face...this does not make a 11 second stocker! Its makes a good F.A.S.T. class car though.
=====================
Remember those Mopar ads with a blueprinted/tuned Hemi Roadrunner, with Ronnie Sox driving it getting mid-low 13's out of the car??? Do you think Ronnie didn't know how to drive?? I think giving everyone till 12.00's is fair enough for some tinkering.

[supergonzo]

I might be wrong on the lift, might have been higher .458/.484 something like that. As I remember they have a pretty big overlap , but used the wide LSA to smooth it out, so they would idle fine

[njsteve]

I thinking about driving the hemi Charger down there. I live about 45 minutes away and the weather is looking nice for this weekend. I dont think I can run in any of the official classes as the car still has the original set of headers on it that were installed at the dealership when new. (and yes I have the original dealership invoice documenting it) and also the car is riding on the original Amercian Racing mags that have been on it the same amount of time. Is there a "fun run" class I can run the car in? Or am I relegated to the show field?

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat...0&fpart=all (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=rides&Number=82224&page=0 &fpart=all)

[supergonzo]

There is a fun run class, for cars that don't quite meet the Factory Stock rules. Its called MCE, Muscle Car Eliminator.

Be glad to have ya, awesome looking ride man WOW http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

[Verne_Frantz]

I just might bring my '62............ http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

Put it in whatever class you want to. I'll just be happy to ring it out a bit. It's been quite a few years since I staged that car. I don't care who's alongside me. I'm going to run it to win.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[njsteve]

By the way, what's the admission/entry fee?

[supergonzo]

Its regular entry to the track, we do not charge additional for the day. $25.00.

Bring em' down, read the rules if you can and decide where you fit in. Weather forecast looks very good.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

[ QUOTE ]
I might be wrong on the lift, might have been higher .458/.484 something like that. As I remember they have a pretty big overlap , but used the wide LSA to smooth it out, so they would idle fine

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what my cam card says, but I keep it in the glove box for these very type of discussions. I simply went to the GM dealer and ordered up the blueprint LT1 cam/lifters. I'm sure other owners could/can get their deuce to idle smooth at 900, but I can't - and therefore I don't think that idle rpm should be used as a barometer to gauge how 'stock' a car is. I think you are saying in a earlier post that the idle quality is not the only test of 'stockness', so then I should be ok. I'm not sure that comparing today's cars to a ronnie sox mag article from 35 years ago is appropriate either, but... that's just me. I think even Ed Hedrick 'may' have had a few bad runs here or there http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

As I type this discussion, I'm realizing what my point is - I hope! Having been to 'stock' events that were put on by different organizations, I have found that the most thorough is the PSMCDR in Stanton - specifically, the Certified Stock class. I plan to build my next deuce within their parameters, and get it Certified through their tear-down process. My concern is that I will bring a legit Certified Stock car to your event, and get deemed a cheater because of rule changes, or different testing procedures, or running too fast, or....???... I would suggest that rather than reinventing the wheel, maybe just piggyback off of their efforts? (maybe not a Certified tear-down process yet, but a similar intrepretation of 'stock').

[COPO PETE]

Marlin,
The reason for the rules "changes" are because of JJ and I. Last Nov. the crops were off early, and the weather east looked awsume, so JJ and I each spent a grand each in fuel, hotels and beer and thought we would help the car count at this fairly new event. Besides, Andrew H had been bugging me for years to go down to that track. We had a good idea we would be the quickest, but also knew we would be racing each other all week-end,( best 2 outta 3), so no one should get there panties in a knot.
The week end went well with amazing barometer reading, and everyone was about 3 mph and 3 tenths quicker than normal. Wayne Nelson set a new record in FAST at 10.59 http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif
(He was back last week-end and was stuggling to get high 10's.) Anyways, we had a good time, car went a 11.75 and JJ 11.58 and seemed everything was cool when we started back on our 13 hour return drive.
The next week, we get gangbanged on there message board, so they decide we have to race in FAST next time against overbored, rollerized, punched and stroked cars.
They don't have to worry cause we won't be back. I don't need to drive 26 hours round trip to take that kind of abuse.
So they get some dork to come up with the rule that a car must pull 15 inches of vacuum @ 900 rpm, or automatic FAST class for you. You can take a time machine back to 1969, and you will not get a ZL-1 Camaro or a L88 Vette to pull that kinda #. Actually , it also makes LS6 cars, L72 cars illegal http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif Not up on my Pontiac #'s , but pretty sure a Ram Air 4 would be stuggling to get that reading as well.
I would need to go out and start my Nova, but I think the Nova would have to idle @ 1200 to get close to that number as well. You better check it before you leave Marlin. Good Luck!
Peter

[Mr70]

This is a very informative and interesting topic for me & I appreciate all who have participated.
Please continue..

[supergonzo]

OHH NO here we go, the persecuted retaliate! relax Pete, I think you got a great car and you and JJ are great guys.

Maybe the stockers around here have never seen those type of ET's from "pure stockers" before. I admit was a bit sceptical myself, having LS6,L88's,LT1's,RAIV's, among many others in my own personal stable as well.

I find the whole conversation amusing though. I live down the block from one of the most revered Icons of this website. In fact I painted some of his creations across the street as I was a painter working in a body shop. I spent time at his house and spoke with him on many, many occassions.

His passion was Pontiacs and Big Block Chevy's. His name was Joel Rosen, maybe you heard of him. Funny thing was back in the day he had this guy who worked for him as a mechanic, his name was Bill Mitchell. Maybe youv'e heard of him. You see these guys could tune a Chevy like nobody else in the country could, and they had their own dyno right here on Sunrise Hwy at their shop known as Motion Performance. Many local track records were held by Joel back in the day with his 427 engines that he transplanted into Camaro's. If you had the funds you could even buy one yourself. These came from Baldwin Chevrolet which was 1 mile away, NOT next door as always erroneously reported here and other places.

Funny thing though, Joel and Bill Mitchell, couldn't seem to get those 427 Camaro's with Headers, Slicks, Tractions Bars, CD Ignitions, and super Dyno Tunes near the times now being reported by ...ahem... "pure stock" cars without the benefit of any aftermarket mods and tires.

Geez such a shame that Bill Mitchell and Joel Rosen couldn't read the Dyno correctly huh??
All they had to do then was take the showroom driven Camaro throw a few stickers on it and blast down the quarter mile on stock tires to 11 seconds. WOW!!! wonder how they missed that??
================================================
Hmmm. there is no doubt todays replacement parts are better,and so are tire compounds. That much better??? I think not.

I don't mind people claiming they are near stock or certified 4 years ago or whatever their story is...I don't care. But if you come down with a car that is heads and shoulders above the rest in performance and seems to be out of the ordinary, then just be prepared to back it up. thats all. Otherwise you and you alone set yourself up for this type of "abuse". Its not anyones elses fault that they are sceptical. Its up to you to prove them wrong. If you don't do that but constantly bad mouth the race or the other competitors...anything to deflect why your car runs as fast as it does, then I say you are not fooling anyone other than yourself. Its a stupid argument.

If you have a near stocker that can pass the test then bring it down and pass it for krissakes. The test is certainly more liberal then a tear down, and takes 10 minutes. By all means shut your critics up..if you have the means to. Who wouldn't want to do that??

[COPO PETE]

[ QUOTE ]
I admit was a bit sceptical myself, having LS6,L88's,LT1's,RAIV's, among many others in my own personal stable as well.

[/ QUOTE ]
Perfect! You should go out right now with a vacuum gauge and see what they pull at 900 rpm! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
Then just to double check, ask Joel what he thinks they should pull.
I am very aware who Motion was and is. There accomplishments are second to none. They were the pioneers in the sport.
It was a different time when the first thing you did was throw on a set of headers and slicks. I doubt Joel ever took a lot of time to try and hook up polyglas tires. Track conditions back then were not what they are today.
Why is it so hard for you to believe that a 3300 lbs ZL1 can go a second quicker than your 4000 LB GTO convertible???? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
Anyone here with a Moroso power chart????? How much horsepower does it take to make a 3300 lbs car go 115mph????? I've done a little dyno work myself. Matter of fact we did a dyno article on the ZL-1 for Musclcar Enthusiast. We later took the head and intake off for the certified stock class. The camshaft was dead on, cause I too like Marlin, bought it from my GM dealer. So I think i have proved myself lots. I'll be at Martin racing in two week, bring your P&G and your compression tester. It'll pass in it's sleep.
Looking forward to your findings on that vacuum on your "stable L88."
Peter

[SmallHurst]

Before this becomes a monkey crap flingin' contest, I think that you, MR. Supergonzo, need to show up in Stanton, MI the 15th and 16th of September and become a believer. Yes, Pete and JJ are at or close the top of the class, but there are some others on had at this meet that are very close. Are you going to call all of them 'cheaters'? In the area of the country I grew up in, you call someone a cheater, you had better be ready to back it up or fight like hell! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

[supergonzo]

I am not calling anyone anything!! I personally have been called alot of names even a couple on this thread. I am sorry I won't respond to stuff like "dork" or any other nonsense, I stopped that in high school. I have been nothing but nice to Pete and JJ. They came down and I appreciate that, I made sure all the photographers made them a high priority. I even had Pete interviewed on camera with one of our awesome Trophy girls, which we had to reshoot a few times because I think Pete stumbled abit talking about his car and looking at this girl at the same time. All completely understandable. Pete and Jim are even on the DVD we produced, I don't know what kind of abuse you are used to but that doesn't sound like abuse to me.
=========================================

Its a wonder that the other LS6 cars and 396/375 hp cars didn't have this same problem that day?? You guys all use the same camshaft?

I agree this is getting stupid. Pete and JJ are welcome anytime they wish. You misunderstand my comments. This is not about my RAIV car at all. I don't have to be king of the hill. I think it was very smart of you guys (this might be the last time I compliment you) to build a 427 lightweight BBC. Just like Wayne Nelson did. Its a very tough combination to beat. Almost impossible. I WANT you to prove to the naysayers that your car is legal as you say it is, thats all. This is for your benefit, not mine. I could care less. I am telling you, if you run 1 1/2 seconds ahead of the field that includes similar cars such as your own, your gonna get some flack, whether its my event or not. I am giving you a chance to shut them all up. Either take it or.........forever have doubters.
===========================================
Don't talk to me about areas of the Country. I'm from NYC, we don't listen to alot of BS, if you can prove yourself here where EVERYONE is sceptical, then you can make it anywhere. You might have heard a song or two like that.

================
Listen I'm done. Pete and JJ I wish you guys well whatever you choose to do, and be safe racing out there, I wish my Camaro ran as well as that one I really do. I'd have a great time with it in F.A.S.T. class

[JLerum]

One of the problems is the air was so good. Chuck in his 1966 chevelle was 4/10 faster as well. His car went 12.50s as well. I know he is around + or - 12.85 at the pure stock drags.

Jim

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v508/JLerum/67Chevelle12.jpg

[njsteve]

Here's some photo coverage:

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat...0&fpart=all (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=lounge&Number=208976&page =0&fpart=all)

[bbbenny]

steve, good talking to you today. your car is one nice mopar. very orginal and docs to boot. got my vote. thanks for the pics of the copo. we;ll have to run one off sometime. bbbenny http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[JLerum]

[ QUOTE ]
Before this becomes a monkey crap flingin' contest,

[/ QUOTE ]

Rusty, I haven't been to one of those in a long time. Do you need to go across the boarder in Mexico. If we're having one of those at Stanton I'm bring old kitty litter to sling.

JIM

[zl1vette]

Ahh, nothing like some good old fashioned research from back in the day. Here are a couple of tests on a ZL1 Camaro:

A guy from Kansas City (Dick Harrell, you may have heard of him) tested a 1969 ZL1 Camaro for the May 1969 issue of Super Stock and Drag Illustrated. The exhaust manifolds were swapped for a set of headers, but still ran the full exhaust. Back pressure being what it is, the headers probably offered only minimal advantage. The car was fitted with a set of street legal 8.00/8.50 x 14 M&H 6 ½” Super Stock tires. With the newer compounds in the repro tires of today, my estimation is that these are probably very close in traction to each other. The Camaro ran the stock Turbo Hydra-Matic transmission with a stock rear end housing a set of factory 4.10 gears. The 850 cfm double pumper was swapped for an 850 cfm with vacuum secondaries because the tires could not hook up.

Dick Harrell ran a 1/4 mile of 11.85 seconds @ 119.06 mph. Uncapping the headers yielded 11.64 @ 122.15 mph.

The guys from Popular Hot Rodding showed up later, and for their July 1969 issue, Dick Harrell, running the same configuration, but with different jets in the carburetor and timing at 42 degrees advance, ran a quarter mile of 12.14 seconds @ 117.80 mph.

There was no mention of track conditions or temperature, but having spent almost a year at wonderful FT. Lost-in-the-woods, MO, I can tell you that there is a HUGE temperature difference between FREEZING COLD Feb and NICE WARM Apr. Since most magazines in 1969 were written three months prior to publication date, I am estimating that these are approximately the actual test months and could easily account for the 0.29 second difference in the two cars with closed headers.

And of course we all know that Chevy built the Corvette to perform better than the Camaro, even with the same motor, so one would expect even better times from a ZL1 Vette.

To COPO Pete and JJ, I say that the above referenced articles should more than prove that your numbers and cars are legit. Not that you don't know the truth; this was merely for the nay-sayers.

BTW, according to "Corvette Quarterly", Fall 1988, the official publication from some car company (Chevrolet, you may have heard of them), the ZL1 motor idles at 2000 RPM, and runs rough below this point. As far as vacuum is concerned, a Competition Cams XR300HR-10 (close to L88 specs) .562/.580 I/E lift and 300/306 duration @ 0.006" can only pull 6.5" Hg @ 1000 RPM.

Seems reminiscent of when the Corvettes were banned for dominating every Showroom Stock race they entered until they had to form the Corvette Challenge series just to race.

[JLerum]

[ QUOTE ]
Ahh, nothing like some good old fashioned research from back in the day. Here are a couple of tests on a ZL1 Camaro:

A guy from Kansas City (Dick Harrell, you may have heard of him) tested a 1969 ZL1 Camaro for the May 1969 issue of Super Stock and Drag Illustrated. The exhaust manifolds were swapped for a set of headers, but still ran the full exhaust. Back pressure being what it is, the headers probably offered only minimal advantage. The car was fitted with a set of street legal 8.00/8.50 x 14 M&H 6 ½” Super Stock tires. With the newer compounds in the repro tires of today, my estimation is that these are probably very close in traction to each other. The Camaro ran the stock Turbo Hydra-Matic transmission with a stock rear end housing a set of factory 4.10 gears. The 850 cfm double pumper was swapped for an 850 cfm with vacuum secondaries because the tires could not hook up.

Dick Harrell ran a 1/4 mile of 11.85 seconds @ 119.06 mph. Uncapping the headers yielded 11.64 @ 122.15 mph.

The guys from Popular Hot Rodding showed up later, and for their July 1969 issue, Dick Harrell, running the same configuration, but with different jets in the carburetor and timing at 42 degrees advance, ran a quarter mile of 12.14 seconds @ 117.80 mph.

There was no mention of track conditions or temperature, but having spent almost a year at wonderful FT. Lost-in-the-woods, MO, I can tell you that there is a HUGE temperature difference between FREEZING COLD Feb and NICE WARM Apr. Since most magazines in 1969 were written three months prior to publication date, I am estimating that these are approximately the actual test months and could easily account for the 0.29 second difference in the two cars with closed headers.

And of course we all know that Chevy built the Corvette to perform better than the Camaro, even with the same motor, so one would expect even better times from a ZL1 Vette.

To COPO Pete and JJ, I say that the above referenced articles should more than prove that your numbers and cars are legit. Not that you don't know the truth; this was merely for the nay-sayers.

BTW, according to "Corvette Quarterly", Fall 1988, the official publication from some car company (Chevrolet, you may have heard of them), the ZL1 motor idles at 2000 RPM, and runs rough below this point. As far as vacuum is concerned, a Competition Cams XR300HR-10 (close to L88 specs) .562/.580 I/E lift and 300/306 duration @ 0.006" can only pull 6.5" Hg @ 1000 RPM.

Seems reminiscent of when the Corvettes were banned for dominating every Showroom Stock race they entered until they had to form the Corvette Challenge series just to race.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to make a point. A ZL-1 going 122+ mph is a 10 second car in todays world. The slick of yester year do not come close to a preped track with the soft compound slicks of today. How many wheel stands do you see of these old cars in yester year perf pics? few to none!!!!!! Today this is what you always see!

Tires, track conditions, and the will to run exhaust manifolds havn't really happened till now. I don't think that even the AHRA required manifolds in their Pure Stocke division, anybody know?????????

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v508/JLerum/Bobby_Brannon.jpg


Jim

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Wow!! This got interesting while I was traveling!!

I'm not sure what happened last year, but it sounds like it was exactly what my fear of this year would be. I have not gone through the rigor of the PSMCDR Certification because I have not blueprinted my engine, however, in the event that I do - it looks like I will face the same issue http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

As surprising as it is to hear Pete and JJ's experience, there is a bigger issue here: Gonzo apparently feels that the PSMCDR Certified Stock process is not legit! Whether you have a ZL1 Chevrolet, GS, RAIV, etc... the fact that it was Certified via a tear down process in Stanton is meaningless? On what basis?

My goal with this questioning was to find out if there was uniformity in the definition of 'pure stock', 'factory stock', 'whatever stock'.... My hope was that if I build my next car to the PSMCDR Certified program, that it will be accepted and respected at another event. I'm not getting that feeling though http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[JLerum]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow!! This got interesting while I was traveling!!

I'm not sure what happened last year, but it sounds like it was exactly what my fear of this year would be. I have not gone through the rigor of the PSMCDR Certification because I have not blueprinted my engine, however, in the event that I do - it looks like I will face the same issue http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

As surprising as it is to hear Pete and JJ's experience, there is a bigger issue here: Gonzo apparently feels that the PSMCDR Certified Stock process is not legit! Whether you have a ZL1 Chevrolet, GS, RAIV, etc... the fact that it was Certified via a tear down process in Stanton is meaningless? On what basis?

My goal with this questioning was to find out if there was uniformity in the definition of 'pure stock', 'factory stock', 'whatever stock'.... My hope was that if I build my next car to the PSMCDR Certified program, that it will be accepted and respected at another event. I'm not getting that feeling though http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are not running the magazine article times you might have a problem. If your car sounds different at idle because you retarded the cam you are suspect. Less vacuum, worse idle and now you must fit the 900rpm rule?????????? I would ask Gonzo what your LT-1 Nova needs to idle at???? I think it would be appropriate before you make the drive to an event. Their needs to be a method to the madness!!!!!!

Jim

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

I put the cam in straight up. It idles higher than 900 bec/ it's supposed to, and I'm not an experienced tuner!

As of right now, I will not attend Gonzo's event bec/ it appears he is unable or unwilling to justify the classification of 'factory stock'.

[supergonzo]

"Gonzo apparently feels that the PSMCDR Certified Stock process is not legit!"

When did I say that??? Thats the way its done there and thats fine with me. Clear?

"the fact that it was Certified via a tear down process in Stanton is meaningless? On what basis?" Again when did I say that???

That was 5 years ago, as Pete said on camera. Your missing the point, I have always been nice to Pete and JJ and have no problem with there cars, however some others have brought up their legality. If they want to settle it, then settle it here at our track in a 10 minute process. Whether they do or don't makes no difference to me. The cars are still bad-a** awesome. CLEAR??

But please don't call people names, or insult anybodys intelligence by claiming that Joel Rosen or Bill Mitchell never drove any cars with Bias Ply tires or tested them properly. They in fact had their own Magazine called Hi-Performance Cars, and tested 100's of musclecars back in the day especially Chevy's.

Don't say headers don't make any difference, anybody who has seen a 427 Camaro/Chevelle exhaust manifold and been to a dyno room and swapped on a set of headers, knows they are worth 40-70 hp. Same for slicks, do you think they were running on rock hard tires back then?? They weren't morons you know, how much does it take to figure out a softer no thread tire is better than a harder threaded tire??

The 900 rpm rule. Obviously certain cars came with cams that had lots of overlap which created lopey idles. As Pete pointed out even RAIV Pontiacs had lopey idles. I agree. And I can obviously be flexible as needed, and I am not looking to upset anyone, its the more the merrier here. If any of you read the original posting about Pete's car... It was originally started here when some factory Stockers were complaining about C.O.P.O cars in general.
I defended the use of C.O.P.O cars and added that they were among the baddest muscle cars ever built. And said they are staying like it or not.


The problem escalated when someone pointed out that Pete's car didn't idle below 2000 rpm the whole day....not 900....2000. Pete explained that it was cold that day (degrees) and that he was warming up the car, plus the engine being all-aluminum needed to be warmed up consistently. Some people did not totally accept this answer. I am a bystander in this CLEAR??


"it appears he is unable or unwilling to justify the classification of 'factory stock'"

What are you talking about??? Read rules, you'll be fine.
Relax, have some fun, its not all that important.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

I would respectfully suggest adopting the tried & true rules of the PSMCDR, don't bother setting up your own rules - because this type of stuff is what happens. Of course you didn't 'say' it, but the actions speak ... yada ... yada...

BTW, I'm relaxed, having some fun, and looking at the pic's of the event - looks like you had a great day!

[supergonzo]

Marlin, we had a great day thanks, and Raceway Park actually asked about you, if you were coming. I told them it might be a bad time to be asking that question! HA HA.

Look I'm an easy going guy, I know some people are fanatics, I am flexible, I am putting on an event that people enjoy, thats what gets me going personally. I don't have to win, competitive yes, but I just like all kinds of muscle cars.

Its a tough line to walk in a competitive hobby, because no one really likes to get beat by anyone. But at some point you have to say wait a minute......you don't have a 10 second Factory Stock car!! At some point there has to be a cutoff I believe. I know its different at Dan's event and thats fine with me. The Pure Stock drags are what inspired the east coast events I run. It does not mean I have to do exactly what anybody else does. I have rules everyone here understands and likes them. If you run 11 seconds here consistently you are in F.A.S.T. class...and that includes me. The whole reason there IS a F.A.S.T. class is because some guys were caught cheating, however up until that point they also declared they were stock as you could get! Remember??

Yeah well I am trying not to make that mistake again. If you have an 11 second car, you done more than just buy a factory camshaft and turned the distibutor left and right to time the car, youve done your homework, your a racer, like it or not.

Thanks again for your comments, good and bad are appreciated and looked at, I am trying to make the events as fun as possible, without dwelling on this tedious stuff.
I believe this was originally a thread between You and ME to begin with and not someone elses place to gripe.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

I understand, thanks for clarifying.

[COPO PETE]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't say headers don't make any difference, anybody who has seen a 427 Camaro/Chevelle exhaust manifold and been to a dyno room and swapped on a set of headers, knows they are worth 40-70 hp.

[/ QUOTE ]
That is very correct, but if you are running exhaust manifolds hooked up to a 1969 exhaust system and then bolt on headers on that same 1969 exhaust system, you "might" get 10 horse. I does not matter how big you make the funnel at the top, it still has to flow through the bottom!
Todays exhaust systems are light years ahead of yesteryears systems. I know some of the 1969 articles are great to look back on, but there are some articles up to and including 2006 that would show that 2.5 madrel bent pipes with todays excellent mufflers and a X pipe will outflow open headers. Actually, 1969 highwater marks in a lot of sporting events or records for lack of a better term have all been broken up to and including 2006! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
Seat time is everything. period. I have to smile when I read some of those ZL-1 tests. Dick and the boys were even doing 6000rpm neutral to low gear drops in the column shift cars trying to get ets! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif
So Gonzo.... are we in agreement that ZL-1/L88 would get a varience in vaccumm reading of between 5 and 6 @900rpm????
Did you get a reading off your stable L88 yet????
Peter