I need help to authenticate a LS6 Convertible [Archive]

SS427

07-19-2006, 08:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
.........when someone finds a lost car for a good price.........These days chances are that you have a fake as 99% of the ones left have been found.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interestingly enough at least 4 unknown LS-6 converts have surfaced in the last 2 years and I believe all have been proven or are on their way to be proven real. I completely wrote off one of them as something other than an LS-6 and now the owner has obtained affidavits going back to the early 70's from previous owners so one never knows. Another was still parked in the original owners garage on a main road!

I used to think there would be no more new cars found but because the prices are escalating so quickly, I think people are looking in every barn and open garage door where they used to not pay too much attention. I know I do and more cars are being found because of this. Just look at all the drag cars that have surfaced lately. I just looked at a collection of around 20 cars and a barn full of parts a couple of weeks ago on a farm that no one seemed to know about and it was only 4 miles from the airport. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
Rick

musclecarjohn

07-19-2006, 08:25 PM

True...I think you are right,people are looking alot harder than ever...in the hopes of striking it big time.

firstgenaddict

07-19-2006, 10:05 PM

That and the baby boomers are begining to move from their homes that they have lived in for along time and either selling off stuff or giving it to relatives who could care less.
I think that in the next 10 - 20 years we will see alot of low mileage original cars that are going to come from garages, barns, and basements of people who are retiring and moving from their long time homes.

mmcporter

07-20-2006, 01:31 AM

Dave,

nice looking car with questionable-at-best pedigree. It looks like your friends might have paid relatively high $$ for an SS convertible; it's almost certainly not an LS6.

rich p

07-20-2006, 05:16 PM

He didnt get burned to bad at that price. It could have been worse. He's got a cool ride that would have cost around that to build a good clone.Hope its a 4 speed and I HOPE he wasnt buying it to FLIP !!!

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

Dave Castine

07-20-2006, 07:08 PM

Thanks Guys!! I will send your VERY APPRECIATED information on to my friend... as always I appreciate your integrity - this hobby should be as fun as these cars were meant to be!!

Thanks
Dave Castine

Stefano

07-20-2006, 07:17 PM

Several Nice 'advertised as clones' have sold in that price range.

SS427

07-20-2006, 07:45 PM

Dave,
Glad to hear you took the comments as only concerns and not slamming or belittling. I think I know who the buyer is and if I am correct he should be ok. Stefano is correct, there have been clones that have sold in that range. I am just finishing an original SS396 convert that was restored as a driver not a show car and feel the car would go for over $100k based on what I have seen them sell for this past year. I remember not too long ago I friend of mine (and sYc reader) paid around $45 for a clone LS-6 convertible and I told him (begged him) not to pay that much. I am now the one that feels stupid. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

At any rate, outwordly it looks like a decent car though the seller should have been more honest. Some of these people are going to get burned badly if they sell to the wrong person. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

I wish more people would rely on these web sites and registries before buying these cars. There are many people that can authenticate the LS-6's for people and many are members here. Take advantage of them. The cost pales in comparison to the savings if the car is fake. jmo
Rick

Jeff H

07-20-2006, 08:57 PM

The price reflects what a "built" LS6 conv would cost so it's not a bad buy. But, if the seller represented the car as an original, number's matching, documented LS6 conv then there could be some legal recourse. The Ebay auction looked to be fraudulent. Still a nice car though.

PPPJJJFFF

07-20-2006, 09:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But, if the seller represented the car as an original, number's matching, documented LS6 conv then there could be some legal recourse.

[/ QUOTE ]

Boy I hope so! If I was the buyer, I wouldn't want to hear " We'll, don't worry, other clones have sold in that price range. So you won't get hurt to much on this car".

No way I could swallow that one. Patrick

agtw31

07-20-2006, 10:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The price reflects what a "built" LS6 conv would cost so it's not a bad buy. .

[/ QUOTE ]

so if i found a 307 malibu ragtop,threw a LS-6 drivetrain in it,and bought some SS emblems,i should expect 150K?

musclecarjohn

07-20-2006, 10:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The price reflects what a "built" LS6 conv would cost so it's not a bad buy. .

[/ QUOTE ]

so if i found a 307 malibu ragtop,threw a LS-6 drivetrain in it,and bought some SS emblems,i should expect 150K?

[/ QUOTE ]

at least!

PPPJJJFFF

07-20-2006, 10:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The price reflects what a "built" LS6 conv would cost so it's not a bad buy. .

[/ QUOTE ]

so if i found a 307 malibu ragtop,threw a LS-6 drivetrain in it,and bought some SS emblems,i should expect 150K?

[/ QUOTE ]

at least!

[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty funny!

Patrick

Dave Castine

07-20-2006, 11:15 PM

I would still like to have an http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif LS6 expert come to see the car if there is a local authority close to Boston... The owner would gladly pay that person - Thanks again, Dave
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif
Email me at [email protected] or call 617.513.7407

Musclecarkid

07-20-2006, 11:21 PM

Wow, you guys are really getting soft. Now its ok to sell a malibu as a documented Ls6 as long as the final bid doesnt reach real car money? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

SS427

07-20-2006, 11:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would still like to have an http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif LS6 expert come to see the car if there is a local authority close to Boston...

[/ QUOTE ]

Chris White is as close as you can get (Upton, MA) but what would be the point if the car is a clone? You don't need an LS-6 expert to tell your friend he has a very nice car. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
Rick

PeteLeathersac

07-20-2006, 11:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, you guys are really getting soft. Now its ok to sell a malibu as a documented Ls6 as long as the final bid doesnt reach real car money? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Only if there's phony documents included! .

Seriously though, although the documentation isn't real what is the status of the car itself? . If it happened to be genuine LS6 car this whole episode sure shows how adding phony docs can turn a real car into supposed fake! .

Hopefully for the sake of Dave's friend something can be uncovered that proves the car real....and the phony documentation filed in the trash where it belongs. .

~ Pete

Steve Shauger

07-21-2006, 12:20 AM

I am sure you already know Chris White, you been into Chevelles for quite a while. If you really want to know give him a call.

GTO_DON

07-21-2006, 12:31 AM

CHRIS WHITE IS PROBABLY THE GUY WHO BUILT IT. I THINK THIS GUY DAVE KNOWS WHAT HE'S DOING. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

07-21-2006, 12:42 AM

Where's my popcorn.....

SS427

07-21-2006, 12:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
CHRIS WHITE IS PROBABLY THE GUY WHO BUILT IT.

[/ QUOTE ]

It was a restoration shop not Chris White.

427TJ

07-21-2006, 12:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Where's my popcorn.....

[/ QUOTE ]

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a234/BE427TJ/PopcornEater.gif

Musclecarkid

07-21-2006, 01:20 AM

"so if i found a 307 malibu ragtop,threw a LS-6 drivetrain in it,and bought some SS emblems,i should expect 150K?"..................I think you can expect 15 to 20...........YEARS http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

Late BrakeU2

07-21-2006, 01:39 AM

Playhouse 90 at best.Like already stated I hope people that read this can make the distinction between the clear intent of outright fraud and the rationale that it's still a nice car.

Ain't no babes in these woods

Stuart Adams

07-21-2006, 01:47 AM

Is there a market for 150K Clones? I wouldn't think so. It's a great looking car, but I can't believe he got a good deal. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

Charley Lillard

07-21-2006, 02:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
CHRIS WHITE IS PROBABLY THE GUY WHO BUILT IT. I THINK THIS GUY DAVE KNOWS WHAT HE'S DOING. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Don, are you accusing Chris of something ? Chris is who I send people to when they ask me about LS6 converts or parts and this is the first hint of anything negative I have ever heard about him.

LVCamaro

07-21-2006, 02:24 AM

I hope you're joking, Don http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif...Chris White is a stand-up guy, IMO.

SS

GTO_DON

07-21-2006, 02:27 AM

No Charlie,I would never acuse him of any wrong doing. I have heard of him and know he is a real knowledgable person when it comes to chevelles. Someone told me that he does do cars for people now and then but I do not know anything about this car or mean to disrespect Chris. I just think this guy Dave knows him and think he's a little smarter than led to believe. Maybe he's just testing the waters here to see wht you guys know. Again I mean no disrespect. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

SS427

07-21-2006, 04:21 AM

Chris does do some cars and is doing at least two right now that I am aware of. One is his convertible that I am sure will be the best of the best when completed. I got to spend some time with Chris earlier this summer at Chad's and the guy is amazing. Pick a part and he will not only tell you the part number but likely the superceeded part and the dates the assembly line changed over to a different configuration. All off the top of his head. Quite the teacher to say the least but also and extrememly honest guy.
Rick

njsteve

07-21-2006, 05:17 AM

Three seperate unrelated points here:

1) Nice car looks neat.

2) It's fraud when you represent a car as something it is not and have paper made up to substantiate your fraudulent misrepresentation. If there's evidence to establish the seller created the car or doctored the docs to make it an LS6 and then represented it as one when he sold it, he's in a world of trouble liability-wise in a civil suit for money damages.

3) Since the value is well above the minimum standard for wire fraud or mail fraud, if the car is fake he is also criminally prosecutable for a 5 or 10 year Federal prison sentence since he most likely used a telephone, the internet or the mail for some part of the transaction.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif class dismissed.

Steve Shauger

07-21-2006, 05:18 AM

A true "expert" of chevelles, and a genuine and honest guy. He has always been willing to share his knowledge to help me and many others as well. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Musclecarkid

07-21-2006, 07:12 AM

I rarely judge a person's character, but is anyone else starting to think Dave is the owner or a broker for this car? Just my personal observation. Please don't take this the wrong way.

Stuart Adams

07-21-2006, 07:23 AM

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

Late BrakeU2

07-21-2006, 07:32 AM

That's certainly the right mindset but the problem with burden of proof is just that.Ain't a court in the land that could convict the seller of that car based on evidence.You could hire Jerry for expert camaro testimony but last time I checked there wasn't anyone making a tidy sum flying across the country representing burned Chevelle buyers.The time is quickly approaching that there will be no way to de bunk a restored car one way or the other-once that happens it's not a stretch to see overall interest(let alone valuations)suffer as a result.Counterfitters have been getting free tuition through TC and this site,there most likely will never be a PHS equivalent for these cars,it's open season,and they're springin up like daisys.Some of the foremost authorities on these are members here-they already know not to disseminate build sheets and specific production info but it's incumbent on everyone for the good of the hobby($?)to PM sensitive info. Some may laugh at that notion but cleary the fox is in the coop(or coupe in our case)and he goin to do some damage.If I didn't own one of these I would not be on my soapbox but given the circumstances it's pretty fertile ground for the disingenuous.This thread was a fishing expedition,nothing more.
jmho

RamAirDave

07-21-2006, 08:34 AM

Just a thought:

I have no doubt that the "crooks" are reading this and other sites gaining all the knowledge they can.

Sure, many have been caught. Some easier to spot than others. But how do we know for sure that some aren't spot-on? How many docs/tags/etc. are out there that would pass (or have passed) by even the most knowledgable "experts"? I guess that is only known by those that are producing the fake stuff.

There may be none out there that are exactly right, I dont know. But I sure wouldnt doubt it if some out there are and only a select few know about it.

Like I said, just a thought.

dave

L78 ELCAMINO

07-21-2006, 10:23 AM

Some time back I looked at a unrestored, unmolested, LS6 Chevelle Convert that Chris had also looked at according to the owner. The car was so original it looked like a bolt had never been removed. As soon as I figure out how I will post some photos including the untouched engine stamp. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

musclecarjohn

07-21-2006, 07:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I rarely judge a person's character, but is anyone else starting to think Dave is the owner or a broker for this car? Just my personal observation. Please don't take this the wrong way.

[/ QUOTE ]

what was your first clue...? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Bill Pritchard

07-21-2006, 07:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ain't a court in the land that could convict the seller of that car based on evidence.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lynn Bilodeau ('Lynn' on this board) just might disagree with you on that http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

Musclecarkid

07-21-2006, 08:09 PM

"Ain't a court in the land that could convict the seller of that car based on evidence"........It seems to me a fellow sold someone here a repro crossram hood as NOS and everyone was up in arms contacting the FBI etc,and the seller now is in jail. Yet on a 150K sale of a 40K malibu,its no big deal? Is the double standard due to the fact a non member bought the Ls6??? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

SuperNovaSS

07-21-2006, 08:13 PM

Who went to jail?

Jason

Stuart Adams

07-21-2006, 08:35 PM

These are reasons why original cars should be worth way more (like Steves COPO camaro) than restored even if in half the shape, IMO. Scarry world, counterfitting is everywhere. They check money at the cash register don't they.

zap

07-21-2006, 09:06 PM

Just curious but who in their right mind would suggest that a Malibu convert with a LS6 drivetrain, which is what this car more than likely started out as, would be worth 150k..today, tomorrow or ever??? I think if you feel this way you are living in "dream land" and forgetting that this market, much like other recent markets, isn't the "norm" but a historical annomoly..If you don't feel the prices will recind once this market goes away, I suggest you go back and look at prices in the late 1980's..LS6 cars were selling for 90-100k then for restored cars...So if the market never reverts back and prices do not go backwards then why is it only now, some 3-4 years into this latest market that LS6 prices are at the same level?

Isn't this one of the biggest problems with Chevrolet musclecars in the first place...no way to truly document the cars except paperwork.If you accept that technology consistently allows the manufacture of things to improve, and the discrepancy between an original and a repro to get closer...isn't it only a matter of time before the paperwork "manufacured" today gets to the point where it can't be detected?? Look at it this way...15 years ago most people in this hobby could tell repro parts from NOS..whether they were emblems, door handles, carpet, etc..Now as a result of technology the repro parts aren't nearly as detectable..and in most cases if you put a repro part in an original box, they are indectable...Paperwork is sure to follow. Since of the "big 3" GM really didn't include engine or option info within the serial number of the cars...some exceptions noted as the serials are known...the greatest area for abuse is from a GM car.

Therefore in my opinion in another 10-15 years most buyers of these cars, will not be willing to pay more for "original" as at that point the possibilty of buying a real car will have greatly demenished. Unfortunatly these cars were mass produced and were not destined to be collectible in the 1st place...

Late BrakeU2

07-21-2006, 10:05 PM

That you John Wayne?

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Jeff H

07-21-2006, 10:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Just curious but who in their right mind would suggest that a Malibu convert with a LS6 drivetrain, which is what this car more than likely started out as, would be worth 150k..today, tomorrow or ever???

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not about it being a smart buy, it's about a buyer buying what he wants. This has been happening for the past couple of years. If a guy can't afford a $500K LS6 conv then he will buy a well done $150K clone. Look at the Yenko clones selling for 1/3 price of a real Yenko. No difference if it's a Yenko clone or an LS6 clone. If it's built well with dated correct parts then someone will buy it. And it's happening today!

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

07-21-2006, 10:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]

....Isn't this one of the biggest problems with Chevrolet musclecars in the first place...no way to truly document the cars except paperwork...... Since of the "big 3" GM really didn't include engine or option info within the serial number of the cars...some exceptions noted as the serials are known...the greatest area for abuse is from a GM car...

[/ QUOTE ]

This perspective could also be used to explain why the real & rare GM cars don't seem to bring as much money as the other mfgr's - to much inherent risk of being false.

olredalert

07-22-2006, 12:40 AM

-----At what point in the future, once the paperwork gets perfected (if it does) and repro parts become closer to original (if they do) will the fakes actually become real???? Im sorry to bring this up but if its a perfect (and I do mean perfect) fake in all ways would the car become real at that point????........Bill S

nuch_ss396

07-22-2006, 12:52 AM

Because of the fact that many of the reproduction parts
are getting so good today, knowledgeable people started
to point to the documentation as the only way to "buy real".
Now, we have better fake documentation. Then it gets aged
better to look more real. Now we have sellers on eBay
trying to sell VIN plates, cowl tags, etc.. You can all see
exactly where this is going - can't you? If the suggestions
made here are correct ( so many good fake cars ), what will
happen to the real cars? Only those known for many, many
years to be real will survive with high prices. I fear for
all the other real Z/28's, L/78's, etc. that have not been
"known" by and large. Those cars will be cast in doubt for
a long time and this will have to affect their respective
values. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

zap

07-22-2006, 02:04 AM

The biggest problem with GM musclecars is these cars were never intended to be collectible. Noone foresaw that people would want to collect them and as such the steps needed to ensure future provence were not taken. Ford and Chrylser while not making cars for collectors at least had the good thought of including engine and other pertinent data in the cowl tags and VINS. This in my opinion (and a good many other non-brand specific collectors) will always ensure Ford and Chrysler cars bring more money..That and the fact that the true hi performance cars from each are truly rarer than the GM cars..GM had a far greater market share in the 1960's and 1970's than either and as such just plainly made more cars...

This is of course is dependant on people just plainly viewing the cars as rare or collectible in the first place..Interestingly some high quality "factory original" restoration shops are now moving away from "original" cars and more into Day 2 or "pro touring" as I would imagine the finite supply of real parts, the propensity for fraud with "real" parts..ie: restamps" and the sheer ridiculous money are making the consumers move away from "original" and into other areas. Thus in order to survive they move to other areas of restorations.

The idea that musclecars will always be worth the money seen today doesn't make sense to me...When the market corrects, as all collectors markets do..coins, guns, cars, art, etc..there are going to be a lot of people left holding the bag..

Im curious why do people feel the cars will continue to go up?? Can anyone here realistically see the day when a 1970 Malibu is worth 70k, when the cost of just living..gas, housing (which let's be honest more people would rather spend 70k in housing anyway..as often quoted.."Land..they don't make it any more"), raising kids, food, etc..continues to go up..Where are all the people with an extra 70k laying around going to come from??? This is assuming that future genrations even find the value in a 1970 car that really only did 1 or 2 things well and compared to current offering, maybe only has stlye going for it..Is there anyone on this board that collected Model A and T's and pre-war cars in the 1950 or 1960's...Keep in mind wasn't too long ago car collectors thought those prices would always go up as well...One could argue the musclecars have more flair and certainly more power, but once the guys that grew up with them die off..so does the vast majority of collecotr interest..the new generation buys the cars oftheir youth, which just so happen to have all the power and flair, but also are cheaper, better engineered and offer more ammenities..

Any thoughts??

SuperNovaSS

07-22-2006, 02:33 AM

Last time I checked they don't make 60's cars anymore either. Sure, they may morph into something more than they were, but they are still a 60's car. When these cars were new, an entry level car was 2,500. Now an entry level new car is 25,000. I am not sure if classics will continue to go up but inflation will continue.

Jason

Steve Shauger

07-22-2006, 03:12 AM

How many and what type of cars do you own. Trying to figure out why are you so concerned how the market will correct. Would I own as many cars as I do now if the market was weak, probably not. Would I enjoy them as much hell yes. Am I really concerned about the market, not especially because I enjoy the heck out of my cars. Can I predict the future heck no, I'll leave that to the speculators and know -it- alls. Lifes to short enjoy it before its too late....

Late BrakeU2

07-22-2006, 03:29 AM

"Where are all the people with an extra 70k laying around going to come from??? "

Millions of people need homes but you only need a few thousand financially solvent(and rabid) collectors to keep the valuations climbing.Everyone here knows the diff between a fugazi and diamond(including the starter of this thread),if not all they have to do is pm one of the sages to get a feel on the cars authenticity.You say in fifteen years noone will be interested in these as the boomers start denture fittment..I will be one of those geriatrics cruzing my rides till I drop and I'm pretty sure I ain't goin ta be alone.Pursuant to our other conversation BJ is (no matter how over the top) the true definitive valuation of muscle-call it a what you want but the it has become Mecca for anyone looking to get the max for their merchandise and the register rings every January with steadily increasing prices.Back on topic the point is it's clearly down to genuine people on this site and TC to make it as hard as possible on the greedy by NOT POSTING SHEETS,BROACH MARKS,STAMPINGS,and other pertinent info that will ultimately make our worst fears come true.These sites are the last line of defense,period.

zap

07-22-2006, 04:34 AM

Been watching too much Donnie Brasco latey..lol..I actually just sold all of my cars within the last year, as I personaly feel most of the cars, especially the original cars are way over priced and fraud, whether it is bogus paperwork or restamped parts is too rampant. I also do not think the price trend will contine and I wanted to re-allocate the money to more stable investments. The topic is interesting to me and I thought in light of some of the post concerning the value of a clone or what used to be called a hot rod...a car that is nothing like it started interesting..

Something I'm not sure if many have thought about is the correlation between short term rates, real estate, and the current boom. It is certainly interesting how prior to the drastic historic annomaly in short term rate drop of 2001-2005, the musclecar market was soft...When realestate and musclecars took off is when the govt regualted a recession with short term rates (ie: the Fed Fund rate). Now that rates are up, realestate is self correcting to a normal market...some might say soft or certainly slow in most areas, what will happen with musclecars.

While prices among hardcore collectors might stay up,I'm really not sure how many "hardcore" collectors there are. I would bet there aren't as many as most will think. As most economist will tell you, the main reason the economy isn't in better shape, which isn't to say it is in bad shape now, is directly related to the war. Once the consumer confidence truly returns and stocks make rallys and are generating decent returns, how many guys will bail on musclecars for more traditional investments. Given that there are more musclecars "known" about today and the acessiblity is greater as a result of the internet today vs. the first "boom" I would suggest that once the cars reach a certain plateau they will drop in value. Look at it this way..there are only a certain amount of people able or inclined to pay 100k (or even 50k)for a car that gets driven only in nice weather. Once these people buy the cars and own what they want the remainder (the cars that is) have no where to go, so the result is the prices drop as demand decreases. Right now musclecars are hot, but at one point so were Beannie Babies..it still boils down to price drives demand..the higher the price the lower the demand hence the price eventually corrects to what the market will bear and when looking at a commodity the price usually drops quickly and below where most expect...We aren't talking about cars that as a general rule only 1000 were made...So if we are saying that a LS6 of which there were 4475 made and even 20% survive (much higher I would bet) we are discussing almost 900 cars. So if the current price is 100k then for that to remain there has to be a majority that will and more importantly CAN pay that much. That is 447 people...are there really that many people out there??? Not sure...

zap

07-22-2006, 05:24 AM

I guess one of the fundamental problems I have with your interest in keeping certain info inaccessible is doesn't the lack of sharing promote fraud that is undetectable or goes undetected? If it weren't for the sharing of info wouldn't so much of the history of these cars be lost. Not for nothing but wasn't there a "well known" car that was shown to be not what it was represted as a result of sharing of thoughts and info. What happens if only the financially solvent get the info? How and who should get to enjoy these cars history...just the few that have the funds to buy them? Is it the guys fault that enjoys reading about LS6's, Yenkos and the such but can't afford them that GM didn't preserve a historical record to weed out fakes. I guess one of the most basic problems I see is the catch 22 or double standard that a lot of guys with high dollar GM cars have..that is they want the prices and subsquent cash windfall in their favor, but they aren't willing to accept the assocaited risk..that the cloners, fakers, etc will eventually make their original cars and "re-creations" undistinguishable..I guess the point is if you want a "safe" muclecar investment with respect to clones go buy something where the VIN is guaranteed to be the real deal..ZL1, Hemi, etc..not "mass muscle" like Z28's, LS6's, etc..

Jeff H

07-22-2006, 08:53 AM

I think you are over analyzing the market. There is no better place to put your money right now since real estate has leveled out(it has not dropped like many predicted). The stock market, forget about that. So collectibles is really the only place to make any money. But this situation isn't about collectibles. It's about somebody that has always wanted a car like an LS6 convertible. A real one costs $450K so he can't afford it. A well done clone that 99% of the people can't tell the difference he will buy for $150K. It has nothing to do with the real value of the clone, it has to do with what he really wants. 9/11 changed everything and people are going about their lives differently. I don't think the car market is going to adjust like it did in the late 80's early 90's because of 9/11. There are too many people willing to spend their money for enjoyment. And musclecars = http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

camarojoe

07-22-2006, 09:01 AM

While I certainly don't believe the fake LS6 ragtop in question was described accurately, and feel it was without question blatently misrepresented, I definitely can't say I feel that everyone with a restored musclecar or supercar should hurry up and sell them off before they are all worth pennies on the dollar... if you believe that, i think you're in a bigger dream world than the guy who thought he bought a real, documented LS6 ragtop for 150k. (if such a transaction even happened) Just as diamonds will always be able to be distinguished from cubic zirconia, bogus cars will always be able to be distugished from real ones. Maybe not by everyone, but the true enthusiasts will know how to tell the difference and will be able to spot a fake. That's pretty much how it is already, with diamonds and cars alike. All the focus on this car was how good the build sheet looked, (which was quickly discovered as fake, with tons of errors i might add) but I bet if you took the fake paperwork out of the equation all together and just looked at the car itself, you'd find just as many inaccuracies and clues that it was a "put-together" car. Just like when the repro 69 Camaro bodies came out and everyone was immediately worried that it would bring forward a host of phony cars...has anyone actually SEEN one of these bodies? There are more differences from an original than you can count. You'll have your hands full just trying to get the fenders and doors to fit right let alone trying to turn one into an undetectable bogus supercar...

If these cars are such overpriced wastes of money and frauds ("especially original cars") and destined to be worth nothing, why are you here on this site? As someone who already sold their car(s), i would expect you to profess how they all will soon be worth nothing...as someone obviously in it for the investment rather than the love of the cars, it would be hard to admit an error if you sold your cars while they were still climbing in value. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

If you don't mind me asking, what car(s) did you recently sell?

I'm not a part of this "baby boomer" demographic that you claim are the only folks keeping this hobby alive, and am actually a "gen X'er" that is supposedly not going to have any interest in these cars. I'm anxiously awaiting this day you speak of, when I can buy chevy musclecars and supercars for pennies on the dollar. I also know many others my age (or younger)that would also be interested in buying some cheap supercars when they become available for next to nothing... Let me know when it happens... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

LVCamaro

07-22-2006, 01:25 PM

Anyone that wants to dump their SuperCar[s] before the sky falls...please PM me for a quick/easy deal.

SS

enio45

07-22-2006, 02:54 PM

Considering this thread started with Dave Castine request - and his comfort at 80% the car is real . . . Dave where are you with all this new info and your friend??

What do you think your friend is planning to do??

Mr70

07-22-2006, 04:28 PM

MuscleCar prices rise & fall and rise & fall,just like everything else does in society today.Nothing is immune from this.
If this upsets & disturbs anyone today,then they are in this hobby for the wrong reasons and were in over their heads from the very beginning.
I see only the Carpetbagging chicken littles with no experience,as the first to declare the "Sky is Falling" & jump ship..and I say good ridence to you all. http://www.wdisneyw.com/forums/images/smilies/hello.gif
Speaking soley for myself,if car prices do escalate,I will still own my Super Sport Chevelle.
If car prices do fall,I will still own my Super Sport Chevelle...plus I will buy as many as my 401K allows.
I do believe that if Musclecar prices do fall drastically one day,it'll be the Clones that will take the largest,most dramatic decrease in value first overall the other vehicles on the block at that very time.

zap

07-22-2006, 04:34 PM

I think you are really over stating and exagerating my point..I don't think I ever mentioned they'd be worth pennies on the dollar..simply that there isn't really any evidence to suggest that they will continue to rise in value and "the sky's the limit" mentality when it comes to value isn't really valid...It would defy historic data as well as economics...

Just curious but if you are assuming that there will be no reduction in value where do you see a 1969 Z28 in 5 years? a LS6? a COPO? If you are expecting these cars to continually rise in value at the same proportions they have over the last few years isn't it safe to say that even among "hardcore" collectors there becomes a point when the price exceeds either their ability to buy or their desire to pay? Please keep in mind you aren't talking about objects where there is a very finite number made..art (1 or 2 pieces that are alike) or exotics...You are talking about mass produced items that are truly appreciated when it comes to value by a minority. If you want to see this...go take a COPO, LS6, Hemi or any musclecar to a public arena and ask how mnay people would honestly pay your asking price for it. The majority will not pay what this market is bearing at the moment among colectors, simply because they do not see the perceived value. Musclecars simply aren't viewed as a commodity or truly collectible by folks outside of the hobby like a Ferrai or Renoir or land. Therefore they are much more volatile with respect to price and the market and once the market becomes saturated with product at a given price the prices drop because there aren't enough people that will pay the price. This type of thinking isn't being negative...just basic economics which I would suggest if you are paying these current prices for musclecars then you should have studied.

I agree after 9/11 people's perception changed and a more "get it while you can" mentality has taken over...but we are still discussing cars which are still viewed by the majority as mere tools to move about. Sure everyone wants to look stylish but one only has to look at the current new car situation and you quickly realize most want practical verse flash. If they didn't people would still be buying SUV's and trucks at the same rate as 2-3 years ago...

Just for the record in the last couple of years I've sold a few very hi-po cars...'vettes, a 'cuda, a couple of LS6's, etc..I sold them because I didn't enjoy them any longer and my interest have moved more to "Day 2" cars and just basic fun musclecars without regard to originality..which can encompass anything from matching numbered cars to the clones. I'm actually thinking about building a pro touring car (camaro or cuda)as for me and my enjoyment they represent the best of both worlds. I have been messing with these cars since the first "boom" and honestly think if you move away from very niche sites like this to more "masses" sites..Team Camaro, Chevelle, Moparts, etc..you will find the majority of musclecar enthuiast don't feel the current prices are both good for the hobby or will keep going up.

just my thoughts

camarojoe

07-22-2006, 05:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Just curious but if you are assuming that there will be no reduction in value where do you see a 1969 Z28 in 5 years? a LS6? a COPO?

[/ QUOTE ]

Since you asked, I believe that original examples of every one of the above mentioned cars will be worth more in 5 years than they are right now.

Unlike yourself, I'm not a value speculator or "investor", nor do I use the word "economics" when talking about the cars i love, but I do know this... I have been into these cars all my life, and since i was a little kid I have been going to auctions, car shows, swap meets, etc. I have never seen the cars I liked cost LESS one year than they did the previous year. EVER.

While I'm not any type of expert on LS6 prices or values, I have followed the prices of Yenko cars fairly closely simply because I have been trying to buy one for years...as the years passed, I watched Yenko Deuces go from 20k to 30k to 40k to 50k to 100k all the way to 175k. At the time I bought mine it was one of the highest prices ever paid for one. There were some folks in the shadows similar to yourself saying it was "too much money", "the bottom was going to fall out", "its overpriced" etc. That was less 5 years ago. I think those folks were proven wrong at least 3 times over. In fact, every one of 'em sold since has sold for more money than the one before it. What will it be worth in another 5 years? I don't know, but to be honest I hope you're right and its worth less than what I paid for it, because "economics" has nothing to do with my love or interest in these cars, and I'd like to get another one. (or 2 or 3!) To me it doesnt matter if they "continue to rise in value at the same proportions they have over the last few years", which I agree they will likely not do, (since they have indeed tripled in value in 5 years or less) But at the same time, I'm not saying i feel that their value is going to fall. Restoration and parts costs will keep rising, as will the prices of the cars themselves... from the bottom level project 6 cylinder cars all the way to the top level restored supercars. It seems to me that over the years, (as far back as I can personally remember) I've heard alot more people saying "Man, i wish I still had that car I sold" more than I've heard them saying they are glad they sold when they did. Just about everyone who ever sold a car believes in their minds that they sold at "the right time", yet the car ends up being worth even more as time passes. Believe it or not, I actually hate talking about values and prices, as thats not why I'm into this stuff... but this thread just sorta got me thinking about it a little.

As with the speculators and naysayers of the previous 5 years who were proven wrong when they said these cars were "overpriced" in 2001, we'll just have to wait and see who's doomsday reports of today prove to be fact or fiction in 5 more... Talk to ya in 2011.

So you really sold original Corvettes and LS6's to buy and build clones/day 2 cars?

zap

07-22-2006, 05:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
MuscleCar prices rise & fall and rise & fall,just like everything else does in society today.Nothing is immune from this.
If this upsets & disturbs anyone today,then they are in this hobby for the wrong reasons and were in over their heads from the very beginning.
I see only the Carpetbagging chicken littles with no experience,as the first to declare the "Sky is Falling" & jump ship..and I say good ridence to you all. http://www.wdisneyw.com/forums/images/smilies/hello.gif
Speaking soley for myself,if car prices do escalate,I will still own my Super Sport Chevelle.
If car prices do fall,I will still own my Super Sport Chevelle...plus I will buy as many as my 401K allows.
I do believe that if Musclecar prices do fall drastically one day,it'll be the Clones that will take the largest,most dramatic decrease in value first overall the other vehicles on the block at that very time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are correct that the clones will drop value faster and perhaps more drastically..but then we get back to the problem with GM musclecars...documentation. I feel if you are collecting GM musclecars you run the very real possibilty that the documentation being faked will not be able to be detected and as a result the prices on ALL GM cars will suffer.

zap

07-22-2006, 05:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Just curious but if you are assuming that there will be no reduction in value where do you see a 1969 Z28 in 5 years? a LS6? a COPO?

[/ QUOTE ]

Since you asked, I believe that original examples of every one of the above mentioned cars will be worth more in 5 years than they are right now.

Unlike yourself, I'm not a value speculator or "investor", nor do I use the word "economics" when talking about the cars i love, but I do know this... I have been into these cars all my life, and since i was a little kid I have been going to auctions, car shows, swap meets, etc. I have never seen the cars I liked cost LESS one year than they did the previous year. EVER.

While I'm not any type of expert on LS6 prices or values, I have followed the prices of Yenko cars fairly closely simply because I have been trying to buy one for years...as the years passed, I watched Yenko Deuces go from 20k to 30k to 40k to 50k to 100k all the way to 175k. At the time I bought mine at 50k it was one of the highest prices ever paid for one. There were some folks in the shadows similar to yourself saying it was "too much money", "the bottom was going to fall out", "its overpriced" etc. That was less 5 years ago. I think those folks were proven wrong at least 3 times over. In fact, every one of 'em sold since has sold for more money than the one before it. What will it be worth in another 5 years? I don't know, but to be honest I hope you're right and its worth less than what I paid for it, because "economics" has nothing to do with my love or interest in these cars, and I'd like to get another one. (or 2 or 3!) To me it doesnt matter if they "continue to rise in value at the same proportions they have over the last few years", which I agree they will likely not do, since they have tripled in value in 5 years or less but at the same time, I'm not saying their value is going to fall. As with the speculators and naysayers of the previous 5 years who were proven wrong when they said these cars were "overpriced" in 2001, we'll just have to wait and see who's doomsday reports of today prove to be fact or fiction in 5 more... Talk to ya in 2011.

So you really sold original Corvettes and LS6's to buy and build clones/day 2 cars?

[/ QUOTE ]

"No..." I didn't sell original cars to buy or build clones...sold them to buy a business and realestate which in turn made me way more money then musclecars..

I'm not a specualtor or investor in these cars either..have had them in some capacity for over 20 years. I actually really enjoy original cars, but with the current situation with fraud and restamped parts I just don't feel comfortable buying original cars, especially GM cars. I watch websites like this and read post and see that the potential for deception doesn't seem to be limited to low end cars being turned into high end cars...I know it has even gone so far as historic cars being faked and that bothers me. If guys are faking cars and turning unknown cars into historic cars, with known historic provence then what are the chances someone will fake a basic SS396??? So for now if I want to drive a 1969 Camaro I'd rather have something where noone cares about documentation, matching numbers, etc..Something that is just enjoyed for what it was/is..a cool old car that sounds great and performs great and gets "thumbs up" without all the other hassles.

Just for the record about cars being worth less..I can remember looking at a 1969 RS/JL8 cross ram car Ed Uylate (sp?) had in 1994 or 1995..it was a LA car loaded to the gills with options, a 10 10 car, etc..He wanted 19-20k for it at the time, but it didn't have paperwork...the sum of the parts was worth the money, but why part it out if it was real...If he had listed that car in 1989 would it have been listed for 19k or 65k? That is just one example.

It seems like you are only looking at the "good" data....the data from the boom...check out the prices from 1989 and then 1994 or so..what was the percentage of drop..not the actual money, but the percentage...inflation in general has to be taken into account. It also looks like you are into the car even in a "bad" market for "ok" money so you will be ok more than likely..However what about the guys buying them for 100-150k?? Who knows...

camarojoe

07-22-2006, 06:09 PM

Sounds like you've been into this stuff for awhile too...I see you just recently signed up here... did you just discover the site? Where are you from?

zap

07-22-2006, 06:14 PM

I've been around the block...lol I am not a huge internet guy...when online (I use computers daily for work so when off try to stay away from them..lol) normally stay on other sites...have way too many interest...cars are just one of them.

camarojoe

07-22-2006, 06:43 PM

What state are you in?

Steve Shauger

07-22-2006, 06:50 PM

It seems you are only focused on the muscle car economic market, but have little insite into the enthusiast/hobby boom. Your points are based soley on dollars and cents, what about the other variables that are what this hobby is built on. I believe your model is not balanced and ignores the true enthusiasts interest and passion for these cars. Also GenX's are now large income producers and just like there parents they also see the significants of these cars thru their parents. This forum is made up of quite knowledgeable hobbyist who help each other and most suspect cars with no known history, questionable docs and pedigree are usually weeded out.

Steve Shauger

07-22-2006, 06:52 PM

Did/do you own a green LS6 chevelle??

mmcporter

07-22-2006, 06:56 PM

I agree with Patrick. The point is that the buyer THINKS he's popping for a real LS6. Maybe he wouldn't write the big check if he was told truthfully that the car was a clone.

442w30

07-22-2006, 10:31 PM

I'd have to agree more with zap than you. You say, " I believe your model is not balanced and ignores the true enthusiasts interest and passion for these cars," but the average "true" enthusiast can't afford the cars he or she wants.

Steve Shauger

07-23-2006, 12:19 AM

So if someone has the means and determination to buy one, they are not "true" enthusiast by your definition??

zap

07-23-2006, 01:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
So if someone has the means and determination to buy one, they are not "true" enthusiast by your definition??

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are refering to an extreme minority when you assume that the average musclecar enthuiast can afford to spend 100k or really even 50-75k on a car in one shot. Usually the guys that are enthusiast are having to buy a car and then over a period of time restore it as money permits. These cars were never made for the minority..keep in mind they were built for the masses as general transportation. I think you are trying to say this site and the income levels represented here are the "norm" in the hobby and as such the cars are still witin reach of most enthusiast. I would beg to differ...Take your RG Yenko to a local cruise and offer it for sale at what you feel is the current going rate...how many guys will say "nice car, wish I could afford it?" I would wager that you probably wouldn't get many credible offers on the car...Better yet try it with a LS6 at 100k...If the cars haven't priced themselves out of the enthusiast market then you should have a majority that can afford it and see the value asked..

I think you are really trying to apply the thougths of an extreme minorty represented here to the whole market...The bottom line is these cars were never rare or collectible in the first place and once the cars as a whole price themselvs out of the market where the majority of enjoyers can afford them then the prices on ALL the car will drop...Don't think it can happen...do alittle research and look back to the first "boom"

As far as Gen X'ers earning a majority of money..actually that isn't the case..I'm a gen'xer and while our income levels on paper are higher than where the previous generation is, we also come into "life" with more debt..ie: student loans, having to buy into housing at a higher cost without the benefit of equity, startig careers and raising familes, etc..so to say that Gen X will be able to afford these cars doesn't make any sense..You have the benefit of disposable income as a result of already raising your family, owning a home and establishing equity, being "seasoned" in a profession, carrying less debt over all..hence you can afford and more importantly see the value today...Will someone of genX see the value in 10 years when we are in your economic situation now?? Take you car to a local school or youth event..ask both car enthusiast and none car enthusiast if they would pay 250k for a Yenko, provided they had that amount of money laying around in disposable income...What will be their answer?? Now explain that the only real difference between your car and a clone is perhaps a serial number and some dates..which can always be added (the dates at least) if it matters..and the clone can be built for less... way less than half.. Will they say "yes" or look at you like you are crazy? Maybe truly original cars will always be worth more money and noone is disputing that...but the biggest problem is you can build the exact same car in terms of looks, performance and visual appeal for a lot less and the future generations will not care about "numbers" Take a look at the gorgeous ZL1 recreation that just sold for 89k or so..that is what...maybe 20% or less of a real car...yet to probably 90% or the folks out there offers just as much pleasure if not more...plus you can save the extra 600k+ and use it in other areas..

sYc

07-23-2006, 01:47 AM

Hum.. so supercar owners are not enthusiasts? I beg to differ, at least the ones that attend the SCR and hang around here 24/7. See the definition of enthusiast below.

Like Steve and the others, for me it is about enjoying my cars, not the $$$. Just becasue you felt you needed to invest elsewhere does not mean that everyone else should do the same. In fact, according to most investment firms, our hobby is THE best place to invest. Sounds like sour grapes to me, as you folded (sold) when you should have been holding.

<font color="red"> enthusiast

n 1: an ardent and enthusiastic supporter of some person or activity [syn: partisan, partizan] 2: a person having a strong liking for something [syn: fancier]

</font>

ANDY M

07-23-2006, 01:57 AM

There have been clones for sale on this site that have had more money invested in them than what they are or were selling for, and they admit that right up front in the ad!
Nut and bolt correct clones that are money losing trailer queens!
Look in any "cars for sale" listing and I bet you will see ads for cars that say "X" amount of receipts, will sacrifice for ... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
How many "Divorce Projects" have we all heard or read about.
How many guys are there that thought they could build a car and sell it for more than they invested in it?
These guys are real enthusiasts, skilled enough to do the work themselves, but maybe not so good at arthimatic.
All this stuff is about an extra number after the comma, thats all. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

tirebird

07-23-2006, 02:15 AM

I think Zap is correct. I live in a housing market where the prices are among the highest in the nation. My home has never lost money going from $110k when I bought it in 1981 to $950k today. It will keep going up in value but not at the 15-20% a year it has during the past decade or so. How does this relate to cars?

Well, everyone wants a home and there are tax, financial, and emotional reasons to own one. Lately, with certain muscle cars, there are emotional and financial reasons. For many muscle cars, in the near future, there will only be emotional reasons.

After us old folks die off, will men and women born in 1980 or later lust after a Yenko or an LS6? Yes, they like them today, but when they're 50 and older, with discretionary income, will they pick our cars or others?

The owner of one of the big consignment shops in the Bay Area, who sells dozens of muscle cars, British, German, and other cars each year says he thinks the muscle car market has this exponential growth for the next four years. Now, he's only guessing, but he says the next generation, and the generation after that, will go for Ferrari's, Porsche's, and other exotics with their big money.

I think he's partially correct. I think the Yenko's, LS-6's, Hemi Cuda's, Thunderbolt's, etc., will always have high value and thus, collectability. They're rare and will always be so. But, those guys who paid big money for a 383 Satellite may not see their funds ever when selling.

Now, and I think this is important, many young people today don't know or care about originality or authenticity. They like our cars for the looks not the cowl tag. Thus, a cloned Z28 with dubs and a killer stereo is even more valuable than a numbers matching original. They're the ones buying 20-30 years from now when many of us are racing at that dragstrip in the sky.

firstgenaddict

07-23-2006, 03:54 AM

I believe as the younger gear heads grow up they will appreciate original cars even more than they do now... I used to pass over the original ones when I was in my teens - mid 20's... it is only recently that I have really begun to appreciate orignal cars. It is much more work to restore a car as it rolled off the assm line than it is to do a cruise in resto.

There was a large run up in model A's in the 70's... they peaked then stayed at the same $$$ for many years... recently however they have begun to go up again.
Same with Duesenburgs and Pierce Arrow's etc. They went through the statosphere... over $1,000,000 back in the late 80's at Charlotte auto fair. The prices fell and now are back up, I think to around a breakeven now...
The best of the best are always going to be valuable. Like was said before... the marginal cars and the questionable cars are going to be the ones that take the HARD HIT when there is a correction... the me too muscle cars IMHO

nuch_ss396

07-23-2006, 07:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Now, and I think this is important, many young people today don't know or care about originality or authenticity. They like our cars for the looks not the cowl tag. Thus, a cloned Z28 with dubs and a killer stereo is even more valuable than a numbers matching original. They're the ones buying 20-30 years from now when many of us are racing at that dragstrip in the sky.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is probably the most important part of this debate.

What exactly will our cars be worth to the next round of
buyers? I too worry about that when I see the "ricer"
market and also the fact that each new generation seems to
be suffering from an increasing lack of work ethic. I fear
that they would rather buy a "looker" cheap than a high
priced real car. I'm sure there will be exceptions - there always are.

Based on the recent introduction (to the resto-mod market)
of the aftermarket 69 Camaro body, I think we are seeing
the start of this trend. I will be watching the acceptance
of that "Camaro" closely.

It's clear that we all love our cars and respect each others
accomplishments with our respective restorations. No one is
challenging that I'm sure. With the relatively high number
of recent Yenko, ZL-1, etc. clones on eBay selling for what
I consider to be respectable money, you have to wonder. I
frankly was somewhat shocked ( and still am ) to see so many
cloned Supercars out there. The big question is how long
have many of these cloned Supercars been in existance. Were
they created to resell, or for the enjoyment of the owner.
I am starting to think that most of them were "manufactured"
for potential resale value. That takes us full circle on
this topic.

Late BrakeU2

07-23-2006, 07:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So if someone has the means and determination to buy one, they are not "true" enthusiast by your definition??

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are refering to an extreme minority when you assume that the average musclecar enthuiast can afford to spend 100k or really even 50-75k on a car in one shot. Usually the guys that are enthusiast are having to buy a car and then over a period of time restore it as money permits. These cars were never made for the minority..keep in mind they were built for the masses as general transportation. I think you are trying to say this site and the income levels represented here are the "norm" in the hobby and as such the cars are still witin reach of most enthusiast. I would beg to differ...Take your RG Yenko to a local cruise and offer it for sale at what you feel is the current going rate...how many guys will say "nice car, wish I could afford it?" I would wager that you probably wouldn't get many credible offers on the car...Better yet try it with a LS6 at 100k...If the cars haven't priced themselves out of the enthusiast market then you should have a majority that can afford it and see the value asked..

I think you are really trying to apply the thougths of an extreme minorty represented here to the whole market...The bottom line is these cars were never rare or collectible in the first place and once the cars as a whole price themselvs out of the market where the majority of enjoyers can afford them then the prices on ALL the car will drop...Don't think it can happen...do alittle research and look back to the first "boom"

As far as Gen X'ers earning a majority of money..actually that isn't the case..I'm a gen'xer and while our income levels on paper are higher than where the previous generation is, we also come into "life" with more debt..ie: student loans, having to buy into housing at a higher cost without the benefit of equity, startig careers and raising familes, etc..so to say that Gen X will be able to afford these cars doesn't make any sense..You have the benefit of disposable income as a result of already raising your family, owning a home and establishing equity, being "seasoned" in a profession, carrying less debt over all..hence you can afford and more importantly see the value today...Will someone of genX see the value in 10 years when we are in your economic situation now?? Take you car to a local school or youth event..ask both car enthusiast and none car enthusiast if they would pay 250k for a Yenko, provided they had that amount of money laying around in disposable income...What will be their answer?? Now explain that the only real difference between your car and a clone is perhaps a serial number and some dates..which can always be added (the dates at least) if it matters..and the clone can be built for less... way less than half.. Will they say "yes" or look at you like you are crazy? Maybe truly original cars will always be worth more money and noone is disputing that...but the biggest problem is you can build the exact same car in terms of looks, performance and visual appeal for a lot less and the future generations will not care about "numbers" Take a look at the gorgeous ZL1 recreation that just sold for 89k or so..that is what...maybe 20% or less of a real car...yet to probably 90% or the folks out there offers just as much pleasure if not more...plus you can save the extra 600k+ and use it in other areas..

[/ QUOTE ]

The reality is it's a have and have not world.Lusting over a car you can't afford isn't going to change the fact these already have pretty much changed into higher income hands.There are no more free lunches,and when the real deals surface cough up or take a pass fearing your purchase will be the harbinger to wholesale market collapse.The more likely scenario is they will continue to appreciate.LS6 cars were categorically made for the minority considering they only made 4k and change out of nearly half million 70 A's. These were highly anticipated,and until the C6Z the highest HP car to come from GM in four decades-hardly your mass transportation unit.When will the trend reverse? Matt's tripoli turquoise 68Z just brought 85k,is that the new valuation for one like that in todays market? What about SD's? they seem to have gone to 80k overnight.Like LS6's at 100+,all were selling for half those prices two to three years ago-but every year people are in shocked amazement when new highs are seen.Maybe the Mopars are the one's that are "overpriced" for todays "average" collector and GM muscle is seen as an attractively priced?.That would certainly explain the increasing valuations.Like Warren Buffet says don't invest in anything you aren't prepared to lose 50% of it's value on,but clearly here the trend is your friend my brother!.This site and the income levels here ARE the norm for this hobby,nobody takes yenkos to cruise nights with for sale signs they go to BJ!. For anyone that has cashed in recentely more power to em,but attempting to predict and time a sliding market for re entry is hopeful at best.Most anyone that has sold a special car wishes they hadn't,i'm no different and it's not always about the money.It's a whole new ballgame now rife with fraud and greed and hard cuts soft,everytime.

Hylton

07-23-2006, 07:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
.....Most anyone that has sold a special car wishes they hadn't, I'm no different and it's not always about the money. It's a whole new ballgame now rife with fraud and greed and hard cuts soft, everytime.

[/ QUOTE ]

This whole thread nicely summed up in 2 sentences. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

ohhawk

07-23-2006, 09:12 PM

If the debate at this point is primarily centered on the popularity / value of musclecars 10-15 years from now then I would agree that there will be a decline in interest due primarily to shifting demographics as has been noted.

In the meantime, 10-15 years is a long time from my perspective to enjoy and benefit from these cars. Some of us will enjoy them longer than that regardless of market conditions. Prior to this oncoming potential shift of interest I believe most will continue to benefit financially by their ownership of these cars. One could make a case that the market could even get stronger for these cars. Anyone know what a narrow trading range stock market is? We're in one now that has lasted approx. 6 years where gains have been minimal overall. These narrow trading range markets can last 10-15 years. There have been several of them since the beginning of the stock market. The last lengthy one was from '65-'81. Factoring in inflation during this period investors would have lost approx 1% on their investments over this 15 yr. period. Some believe we could be headed into another long narrow market for years to come. If that develops these cars could continue their rate of appreciation as some traditional investors look for other investment channels in which to place some of their money.

Back to the original post I hope Mr. Castine and his buyer come out OK on this. Eventually some enterprising car enthusiast/s is going to grow a consultant business to help combat unsuspecting buyers. I'm not talking about brokers or services that rate the general condition of a car but someone who knows certain makes/models and might charge a fee to examine a car and its pedigree. I know there are some businesses out there that offer this type of service already but they are generalists at this point. I'm talking about the guy that knows his Chevelles inside and out or Camaros, or whatever. Someone who represents a buyer but has no financial incentive whatsoever in the purchase or sale of the car. May not be able to guarantee 100% protection of fraud to the buyer but I'll bet many would still use the service if this specialist has or grows a positive reputation. In the meantime this website and others do a good job of keeping some of us informed.

nuch_ss396

07-24-2006, 12:52 AM

OK - FINE!

I have a solution as far as I am concerned. When I die,
just strap me in the drivers seat and lower me and my
Camaro into the ground. Everybody wins...... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Stuart Adams

07-24-2006, 02:13 AM

The real one or fake one!!

nuch_ss396

07-24-2006, 02:30 AM

Stuart! You just had to go there - huh?

The fake one of-course! What am I - stupid?! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

ssl78

07-24-2006, 03:48 AM

I have given this topic a lot of thought lately I have always bought my cars to drive them its has reached the point where driving my Yenko Camaro isn’t fun like it used to be. Being a original body panel car and the knowing that’s something that can not be replaced if something should happen I might as well be driving any car since I can not treat it like it was built to be driven. There probably are not many Yenko Camaros still driven but next week mine will probably go on a 80 mile car cruise to a car show and I know I will probably get crazy with it a few times and if something would to happen it would be terrible.
I started off having my first muscle car when I was 17 but that led to drag racing I drag raced until I was 25 but it got to be so expensive I had to quit. I then spent the next 25 years owning muscle cars Chevy Fords Mopars it didn’t matter they were all a blast to own and drive. Its gone full circle since I bought that 67 Chevelle I have gone to the track a few times I realized its much cheaper to go racing then to afford most muscle cars.
I havent even signed up for the reunion yet since I always enjoyed getting there on Thursday and taking my car off the trailer and not putting it back on until Saturday after the show. With all the stolen cars that you here about you better keep it in a trailer under lock and key.
There arent many Yenko Camaros that are still driven and I can understand why with the incredible prices they are and it is almost impossible to restore one with nos parts anymore. Theese are special pieces of muscle car history and most are in collections right now and Im sure the ones that arent soon will be Im pretty sure mine will be very soon and the prices of these type of low production muscle cars will keep going . I do believe there is a place for clone cars but not at these prices all they are is another Camaro with a big motor.

nuch_ss396

07-24-2006, 04:38 AM

John,

A lot of non-believers feel that's what the day 2 Supercars
are anyway - just another Camaro, Nova, Chevelle with a big
motor. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif Ask the Corvette guys http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

ssl78

07-24-2006, 05:28 AM

Steve, even a Yenko your still only buying just another Camaro your just paying for the history of it. Dont tell the Corvette guys that.

Late BrakeU2

07-24-2006, 05:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If the debate at this point is primarily centered on the popularity / value of musclecars 10-15 years from now then I would agree that there will be a decline in interest due primarily to shifting demographics as has been noted.

In the meantime, 10-15 years is a long time from my perspective to enjoy and benefit from these cars. Some of us will enjoy them longer than that regardless of market conditions. Prior to this oncoming potential shift of interest I believe most will continue to benefit financially by their ownership of these cars. One could make a case that the market could even get stronger for these cars. Anyone know what a narrow trading range stock market is? We're in one now that has lasted approx. 6 years where gains have been minimal overall. These narrow trading range markets can last 10-15 years. There have been several of them since the beginning of the stock market. The last lengthy one was from '65-'81. Factoring in inflation during this period investors would have lost approx 1% on their investments over this 15 yr. period. Some believe we could be headed into another long narrow market for years to come. If that develops these cars could continue their rate of appreciation as some traditional investors look for other investment channels in which to place some of their money.

Back to the original post I hope Mr. Castine and his buyer come out OK on this. Eventually some enterprising car enthusiast/s is going to grow a consultant business to help combat unsuspecting buyers. I'm not talking about brokers or services that rate the general condition of a car but someone who knows certain makes/models and might charge a fee to examine a car and its pedigree. I know there are some businesses out there that offer this type of service already but they are generalists at this point. I'm talking about the guy that knows his Chevelles inside and out or Camaros, or whatever. Someone who represents a buyer but has no financial incentive whatsoever in the purchase or sale of the car. May not be able to guarantee 100% protection of fraud to the buyer but I'll bet many would still use the service if this specialist has or grows a positive reputation. In the meantime this website and others do a good job of keeping some of us informed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Completely agree.I also mentioned that a few dozen posts above this one,and personally know of one individual here that is extremely qualified if he chooses that direction.Problem is that vocation is a very nebulous and serious one for someone who restores cars out of passion.Until that happens,(or another Mattison miracle)it's down to the members here and at TC.This site has been a great source of info and influence for me.I purchased my LS6 coupe from a member and have sold a car to another member.Both great guys and very knowledgeable enthusiasts.I consider myself very fortunate to have found a such great car with it's pedigree fully intact,well known within the community,and almost complete owners history from day one.Pretty icorruptable stuff for down the road with the scammers on the full court press lately.That would not have happened without SYC because of the sharpies here keepin it real.The thrust of my prattle is if we continue to edumacate the dark side by providing blueprints to these cars they will diminish in value quicker than if not.Personally I would rather see the current owners protected than trying to save a future one's who apparentely will have no interest in these in 10-15 years anyway http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

DarrenX33

07-24-2006, 06:20 AM

I agree John. Believe it or not I had the most fun with the 72 Z28 I had last year. Didn't have to worry about anything. My cars aren't anywhere near the value of the Yenko but I share that same thought. Lately I find myself wanting a plain jane small block 2nd gen Camaro to have fun with. I'll take a little rust or something that can drive but needs restoration. I wouldn't be doing it anytime soon though...

sYc

07-24-2006, 06:38 AM

Something to think about. If the supercars become simply showcars, spending the majority of their time in climate controled "vaults", then will their popularity continue? I think not. IMO, the reason rare musclecars are so popular today is the the WOW factor, which comes from the excitment of driving them. Nothing else comes close.

kwhizz

07-24-2006, 06:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Something to think about. If the supercars become simply showcars, spending the majority of their time in climate controled "vaults", then will their popularity continue? I think not. IMO, the reason rare musclecars are so popular today is the the WOW factor, which comes from the excitment of driving them. Nothing else comes close.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

firstgenaddict

07-24-2006, 07:20 AM

Supercars didn't achieve the Label by sitting on showroom floors... they got them by racing and blistering the tires, if you can't afford to drive the car then you can't afford to own it. IMHO

nuch_ss396

07-24-2006, 08:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Supercars didn't achieve the Label by sitting on showroom floors... they got them by racing and blistering the tires, if you can't afford to drive the car then you can't afford to own it. IMHO

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds good. However, most of the guys who have them can
afford them, but they still don't race or drive them.

poolhustler

07-24-2006, 08:27 AM

Whats with the picking on Vettte guys?? I have a C5 Vette and love all muscle cars!! Especially bowties!!!!!!

Russ....

nuch_ss396

07-24-2006, 08:39 AM

Russ,

I wasn't really taking a shot on my part. I have had
numerous discussions with Corvette owners over the years
and I think it's safe to say many of them don't see the
perceived value of the day 2 cars. That's all. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

They just consider them dealer modified. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

hvychev

07-24-2006, 09:13 AM

I can't wait till the day that "people loose interest" in muscle cars. I actually believe this could happen to a certain extent. In 20-30 years I wonder if people will care if a car is #'s matching or if has the correct style broach marks, or if the widget spring is the correct color. I think future generations will be more interested in the look or the general "attitude" of a bad ass American Muscle Car. All I know is I will be lined up waiting to get another supercar if the values go down!

I drove my Deuce EVERYWHERE and ANYWHERE in Chicago. I had fun with it and did not worry about what it was worth. I parked it in any parking lot, drove it in all forms of city traffic, and beat the piss out of it without worry. I terrorized the streets of Chicago and the 1320 of Gateway International with that car even though I knew the car was worth $150,000 and loved every minute of it!

For now all I have is the memories of the actual experience of being a supercar owner. I will NEVER forget blasting down the track at Gateway International with my Yenko Deuce as long as I live. For those brief few minutes in my life I did not care about the values, risks, or politics surrounding supercar ownership. All that mattered was banging them gears as hard as I could, just short of breaking the stick to make sure I won! Being handed the time slip with your new best time was all worth it. THAT is what it should be all about.

http://www.yenko.net/photos/data/500/medium/121_2107.JPG

PPPJJJFFF

07-24-2006, 05:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone know what a narrow trading range stock market is? We're in one now that has lasted approx. 6 years where gains have been minimal overall. These narrow trading range markets can last 10-15 years. There have been several of them since the beginning of the stock market. The last lengthy one was from '65-'81. Factoring in inflation during this period investors would have lost approx 1% on their investments over this 15 yr. period. Some believe we could be headed into another long narrow market for years to come. If that develops these cars could continue their rate of appreciation as some traditional investors look for other investment channels in which to place some of their money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Large Cap Growth stocks are just one of many asset classes. There were many investible asset classes that did extremely well from the mid 60's to 81. No one ever seems to bring them up though. I agree that for the last 6 years Large Cap Growth again has experianced a side ways trading range. However todays investors are hopefully diversified into other asset classes.

For instance: Small and mid-cap stocks, developing markets and commodities have all been on a tear for the last 6 years.

I don't buy into the theory of muscle cars being an alternative investment to stocks. Possibly a non-correlating asset in addition to certain equities. My 2 cents. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Patrick

SmallHurst

07-24-2006, 07:54 PM

As a gen X'er myself, I have to respond that there are more than just a few of us that have the car of our dreams sitting in the spare stall of the garage, but multiply by many times the numbers that want these cars. Currently, I have my car by shear 'want' and determination. I was 25 years old when I picked my car up. I had no debt, I had nobody depending on me, I lived in the back of an old boarding house and ate a great deal of peanut butter to buy and make that car what it is today. And the fact is, I would not change a thing. It may be correct that the market may drop some, but that will only be until the Gen X group has kids off to college and they have some disposable income. I can see Ferrari's and Porsche's being purchased, but there are a great number like myself that will be collecting these cars when they become available and the bank account allows. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

ANDY M

07-24-2006, 08:06 PM

"Sounds good. However, most of the guys who have them can
afford them, but they still don't race or drive them."

This is how you end up with barn finds. If a car becomes a White Elephant, the owner says "It's not for sale" and sticks it in a barn or garage, or even worse his backyard for someone else to find years later. Sometimes the car is a gem, sometimes its a crusher.
A Yenko or a COPO or Hemi could be had for next to nothing in the mid-'70s, and many have been discussed here. However, when you suddenly figure out that your car is worth more than your home, and you don't have the resources to restore it because you've retired, but you can't let it go...

firstgenaddict

07-24-2006, 08:07 PM

Some of my friends have Porsches (all GenXers), I have had Porsches, would rather have MUSCLE CARS.
The owner of the Black 69 RS/Z has a 02 911 Cab. He told me the other day that he wants to get rid of the Porsche and buy a 67-69 Camaro Conv with auto and A/C so his wife can drive it. He said that there is nothing like stabbing the throttle and getting instant power...unlike a high revving small displacement where you have to wait on the power.

Steve Shauger

07-24-2006, 09:21 PM

I'm not sure if my son is a Gen X'r but he is 21 and already bought his own survivor second gen z28 camaro. He enjoys driving it and ALL his friends especially the girls love the car. I hope I had some influence (positive) on his interest in these cars. It not a super car, but if his interest, desire and bank account allows he will purchase another one.

musclecarjohn

07-24-2006, 09:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Stuart! You just had to go there - huh?

The fake one of-course! What am I - stupid?! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

No...I'd say you were dead if I had to guess. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

MYSTERYCHEVELLE

07-24-2006, 09:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Eventually some enterprising car enthusiast/s is going to grow a consultant business to help combat unsuspecting buyers. I'm not talking about brokers or services that rate the general condition of a car but someone who knows certain makes/models and might charge a fee to examine a car and its pedigree. I know there are some businesses out there that offer this type of service already but they are generalists at this point. I'm talking about the guy that knows his Chevelles inside and out or Camaros, or whatever. Someone who represents a buyer but has no financial incentive whatsoever in the purchase or sale of the car. May not be able to guarantee 100% protection of fraud to the buyer but I'll bet many would still use the service if this specialist has or grows a positive reputation. In the meantime this website and others do a good job of keeping some of us informed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here Here!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Stuart Adams

07-24-2006, 10:06 PM

There is never and end that pleases everyone in these discussions. New cars should not be compared to a 40 year old camaros, chevelle, etc.

There will always be a market for the ferrari's etc and muscle cars. Not all muscle cars are collectables either.

I was not attracted to these cars because of money. The dollar value or rarity has nothing to do if I like the car or not. We buy cars that loose money everyday, so if it was strictly an investment we would all be driving collectables to work. I don't think you can always say investment with muscle cars, for me its just icing on the cake and a way for us to somehow justify it to the wife!

Buyer beware for sure. This site is awesome at ratting these cars out.

SuperNovaSS

07-24-2006, 10:14 PM

Frank,

You are awesome! I look forward to meeting you someday. My attitude parellels yours. Many cars that are looked at as survivors today went through the ringer quite a few times and lived to tell about it. Being careful is one thing but being a hermet is something totally different.

Jason

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

07-24-2006, 10:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As a gen X'er myself, I have to respond that there are more than just a few of us that have the car of our dreams sitting in the spare stall of the garage, but multiply by many times the numbers that want these cars. Currently, I have my car by shear 'want' and determination. I was 25 years old when I picked my car up. I had no debt, I had nobody depending on me, I lived in the back of an old boarding house and ate a great deal of peanut butter to buy and make that car what it is today. And the fact is, I would not change a thing. It may be correct that the market may drop some, but that will only be until the Gen X group has kids off to college and they have some disposable income. I can see Ferrari's and Porsche's being purchased, but there are a great number like myself that will be collecting these cars when they become available and the bank account allows. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto, 'xcept I was 26! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

machinist

07-25-2006, 04:04 AM

Ok we have gone 12 pages and still we do not know what has happened to the deal with Dave Castine. Was it a real deal?
Was it a fishing post or whats up. Does anyone have any info?

Johnny

nuch_ss396

07-25-2006, 05:31 AM

Who cares! This has been entertaining on its own right. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Oooh look! This starts lucky page 13...... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Born30YrsLate

07-25-2006, 05:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Was it a fishing post or whats up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Deep Sea...

L78 ELCAMINO

07-25-2006, 10:16 AM

The entire market craze reminds me of a friend in California who started a door hardware polishing business with himself and one truck. He would go to an exclusive area to perform his service, within a day half the homes on the block were calling wanting theirs done. Four years later, 12 trucks and 30 employees. Hmmmmmmm.

SSJunkie68-69

07-25-2006, 05:39 PM

Let me see if I get this correctly....in other words, your friend is going to high dollar neighborhoods and being paid a pretty penny to go to a rich person's home to polish his knobs?

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Canucklehead

07-25-2006, 07:28 PM

Sounds like a job George Micheal might like!

704EVER

07-30-2006, 02:12 AM

I think I just stumbled on the captain of the fishing trip. The 27.9 mile Red LS-6 is up for sale again and the owner/broker is the same guy who's friend just got hooked with the 150K clone.

jfkheat

07-30-2006, 06:07 AM

He has advertised several LS-6 cars for sale on this site.
James

Ngtflyr

08-09-2006, 06:54 PM

Dave,
Are you following the Collector Car Fraud string:

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/217137/an/0/page/0#217137

Might want to pass on the following to the buyer:
Bryan W. Shook
The Law Offices of Darrell C. Dethlefs
2132 Market Street
Camp Hill, Pennsylvania 17011
(717) 975-9446
[email protected]

novadude

08-10-2006, 11:01 PM

'Nother gen-x'r here (34 yrs old). Many folks seem to forget that our generation ALSO grew up with these cars! Back in the mid-to-late 80's the LS6, Hemi, etc were out of our reach, but I can tell you that every high school parking lot and cruise spot was packed with "lesser" 68-72 Malibu's, Cutlass, Camaros, etc. Back then these were cheap 15-20 yr old used cars.

We all WANTED the LS6, Hurst Olds, Z28, etc, and we all have fond memories of the 60s/70s cars that were our "first". As more of us get into the position to afford the "top dog" models that we always wanted, I predict the values will stay high.

As for me... forget it. I don't see me having that kind of disposable income for many years to come. Plus, although I really appreciate the historic significance of the "rare" cars, I feel clones are where it's at! I own my car to drive it... when I want, and where I want. Having a high dollar piece would spoil the fun for me... too much worry.

The only sad part is that the collector car craze is even driving the price of base model stuff out of the reach of guys like me. I guess I shouldn't complain though.. I bought my Chevy II CHEAP in 1986, and it is worth much more today.