Fake Trim Tag?

[Hotrodpaul]

Nice looking Z28. What do you think of the trim tag, real or fake?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-Z28-...1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-Z28-MATCH-PRIVATE-COLLECTION-302-DZ_W0QQitemZ160009087830QQihZ006QQcategoryZ6161QQr dZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

Paul

[lzdick]

Paul,
I do not see anything questionable about the trim tag. I would very much want to see the VIN stamping in the rough casting (near the oil filter) and the hidden VIN locations on the firewall). Appears to be a very nice car. The color has what appears to be a brownish cast to it... it may be the photo or the reflection off of the macadam road. The Z/28 stripe on the trunk deck is a pet peeve of mine. It should end UNDER the spoiler and not be seen on the lip of the trunk deck and NOT go under the vinyl top. IMO, for the $$ asked, the paint issues concern me the most.

Keep us posted if you are a 'player' on this car.

Rich

[Steve Shauger]

Definitely fake IMO.

[resto4u]

fake tag, yes. car looks really nice though.

[COPO]

Looks like a repo tag, but the car still might be a legit Z/28.

[firstgenaddict]

Did they use the 388 block this late? I thought that the switch to 0010 occured in late March.

[lzdick]

According to Jerry M's book...

3932386 May 1968-December 1968

3956618 December 1968-April 1969

3970010 April 1969-September 1969

3932388 December 1968-September 1969. Fairly rare casting. The casting date is located next to the casting number, behind the LEFT cylinder head.

It appears that several of you know this to be a fake trim tag. Is it the 'fatter' text/characters that gives it away? I guess I'm not very good at identifying these tags. I keep comparing it to photos in Jerry M's book and the characters appear to be the only difference I can detect with my failing vision. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Rich

[Jeff H]

Repo tag for sure. I can't see the 041 heads being original either. The exhaust manifolds look wrong as well. Nice looking car but I would want a professional inspection done based on the trim tag and other items. And that d@m "Caution Fan" sticker! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

[Rick H]

Non-bleeder repop master cylinder, lack of deep groove alternator pulley, wrong exhaust manifolds, and list goes on and on and on.

Beautiful looking car but....


Rick H.

[Lynn]

I have really tried to stay away from car bashing, as I don't believe that is what this site is all about, but do have some serious questions about this car, only because of how it is being represented. Others have already mentioned manifolds, stripes, MC, alt pulley etc. I know Colvin's book lists the 041 head as being POSSIBLE on a 302, just have never seen or heard of an original car that actually has them. Just like Jerry M's book lists the 170 water pump as being possible on a 302, but don't believe anyone has ever found one on an ORIGINAL car. I guess it bothers me when there are so many incorrect details, yet all of the paint marks and supposed chalk marks are put in place.

Claims to have an original build sheet. Would like to see that on a Norwood car. He could have shown at least a partial photo. Maybe my eyes are just that bad, but in the photo just above the trim tag, isn't the gap between the quarter panel and the tail panel filled in with bondo on this car? What is up with that?

Seller was asked for the casting date on the block, and avoided the answer by saying it is in the description. Are my eyes that bad? I can't find the casting date. Wouldn't it have been easier for the seller to just state the date? Why so evasive?

If the tag is a fake, it is certainly one of the better ones. Would like to hear from Mark C. or Kurt on this one.

[musclecarjohn]

that trim tag was making me dizzy just looking at it.
could any of the other pictures be any more blurry?
loved his excuses to Lynn as to why he couldn't show the trans VIN....ha! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

[Hotrodpaul]

I really like the car but the seller has represented the car as a real Z28. If it has a fake tag, then this is fraud in my opinion. Just wanted to bring this to light. Looks like there is too much filler in the rivets also. I have never seen that much before.

Paul

[Steve Shauger]

Looks like the putty is being used to cover up incorrect rivets.

[ohhawk]

Certainly things that cause suspicion but I wouldn't rule it out as the real thing myself. I'd want to see that buildsheet. Other things that aren't correct only tells me that the restoration wasn't totally correct. Not everyone tries to make them totally correct.

As far as the trim tag rivets I wouldn't say they look that out of place......

http://classicauto-sales.com/zoom.php?car=187&pic=5

[Lynn]

Check this out. Mark C. did speak up, but on TC forum. Unbelievably someone swapped a fake X33 tag onto a car that had a real X77 tag. Car used to be Glacier Blue. Engine is also a restamp according to Mark.

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=86575

Many thanks to Mark and all the other guys who have been tracking tags and VINS.

[Steve Shauger]

Yes the engine restamp is another poor attempt to deceive unsuspecting buyers. The stories the sellers come up with are real winners. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

[jbsides]

Won't eBay be participating in a fradulent auction by accepting fees from the sale of this bogus car? Isn't there any liability on eBay's part if they do so? Can't they get sued when the lawsuits start flying after the unwary winning bidder concludes he has been taken?
I know there are lawyers who are members of this board. Someone is going to be awful upset they spread out that much dough for something this misrepresented.
Nice looking car, though. I'm surprised noone has brought up the non original shiny new valve covers yet.

JB

[jbsides]

Maybe I missed it, but were there any casting dates noted for those 041 heads? Even with the extended production, I have never heard of them used on a '69 Z, and I don't recall seeing any on a 70 1/2 Z either.

JB

[Hylton]

[ QUOTE ]
Won't eBay be participating in a fradulent auction by accepting fees from the sale of this bogus car? Isn't there any liability on eBay's part if they do so? Can't they get sued when the lawsuits start flying after the unwary winning bidder concludes he has been taken?
I know there are lawyers who are members of this board. Someone is going to be awful upset they spread out that much dough for something this misrepresented.
Nice looking car, though. I'm surprised noone has brought up the non original shiny new valve covers yet.

JB

[/ QUOTE ]

Who says it is fake?

You see JB, it may very well be but the problem is that you must prove it is fake. In order to do that, you will have to do it in a court of law. The burden of proof will be on you, not the seller. Whoever gets this car will have to tear it apart to find some incriminating evidence as well as do a previous owner search and get sworn affidavits from them as to what the car was in the past. Right now, this seller may be guilty of having a fake trim tag and a re-stamped block but it is possible that this car can be real.

Do I think it is real? Hell no! Can I prove it is not real? No I can't.

Thinking of buying a muscle car? Previous owner history, previous owner history, previous owner history...........

I say this is more important than docs!

[jbsides]

You asked who said it is fake? I didn't.

Bogus, misrepresented, yes, but I did not say "fake." Point is, when and if the buyer does discover the car is not what he thought he was buying, the chances of him sueing everyone is good.

Whether or not he can proove it in a court of law is something else.

JB

[Hylton]

[ QUOTE ]
Bogus, misrepresented, yes, but I did not say "fake."

[/ QUOTE ]

Semantics, semantics.........

[Lynn]

[ QUOTE ]
Won't eBay be participating in a fradulent auction by accepting fees from the sale of this bogus car? Isn't there any liability on eBay's part if they do so? Can't they get sued when the lawsuits start flying after the unwary winning bidder concludes he has been taken?
I know there are lawyers who are members of this board. Someone is going to be awful upset they spread out that much dough for something this misrepresented.
Nice looking car, though. I'm surprised noone has brought up the non original shiny new valve covers yet.

JB

[/ QUOTE ]

JB:

At this point, I don't see any liability on the part of Ebay, unless they have been put on notice that this car has a fake tag and a restamped motor.

I can tell you what usually happens when the "unwary winning bidder concludes he has been taken". He has his lawyer contact the seller, who then offers a full refund, because he doesn't want to defend a lawsuit. Seller then turns around and sells the car to another "unwary" buyer. Especially in times like these, when the cars are escalating in value by the week. Seller may actually make more the second time around.

As far as being able to prove fraud in this case "in a court of law", well, I don't see much problem proving that, especially if Mark C. has a photo of the previous tag. Read his post on Team Camaro. The only question is: who swapped it? That won't be that hard to find out. Even though owner history records are not available to the general public, an attorney can get them very easily as long as it is being accessed in connection with a pending suit or for "investigation in anticipation of litigation".

Not to change the subject, but I think ebay is exposing itself to litigation IF someone buys a car with a trim tag (either real or fake) that was purchased on ebay. I believe plenty of folks have complained to ebay about selling trim tags, and the possibility of them being used for fraudulent purposes. But then, I am shocked that there haven't been a flurry of lawsuits against trimtags.com for this very reason. Trimtags.com knows exactly what most of its customers are doing with fake tags.

Just my opinion.

[Hylton]

[ QUOTE ]


I can tell you what usually happens when the "unwary winning bidder concludes he has been taken". He has his lawyer contact the seller, who then offers a full refund, because he doesn't want to defend a lawsuit. Seller then turns around and sells the car to another "unwary" buyer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or, buyer realizes he's been had once he gets the car home and then desides to wait a few months to pawn the car off on another Ebay sucker. We've seen that a few times on this board!

[ QUOTE ]

Not to change the subject, but I think ebay is exposing itself to litigation IF someone buys a car with a trim tag (either real or fake) that was purchased on ebay. I believe plenty of folks have complained to ebay about selling trim tags, and the possibility of them being used for fraudulent purposes.....

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't checked in a while but I am sure the contract everyone agrees to when becoming an Ebay member takes care of any liability issues on the part of Ebay when fraud occurs on their web site. Besides, they have more money than anyone here to throw at lawyers until you are drowning in legal costs.