Collector Car Fraud!!!

[elcamino72]

Hey guys, I've been a member here for many years and just recently graduated law school. In the time I've spent reading the posts on this board as well as many others, I have noticed that collector car fraud is a BIG RACKET and something needs to be done. I recently took a job with an energetic law firm which I was able to talk into pursuing collector car fraud cases in Pennsylvania. These cases would include cars sold on fraudulent built sheets, protecto plats, window stickers, etc. Also restamped engines, VIN and Cowl Tags, misrepresentation of a restoration, inherent diminished value, auction problems (ebay scams), estate issues (wills devising classic cars to charities, trusts, heirs, etc.).

There are more '69 Z28 Camaros out there today than GM built, same with '57 Fuelies. If anyone out there knows of anyone who was ripped off buying a fake car that was sold as genuine, please point them in my direction and we can finally get some much needed justice. I have nothing against clones, but it is against the law to misrepresent a vehicle to another person (telling someone it's an SS when it really started life as a 307cu., etc.)

I can be contacted at:

Bryan W. Shook
The Law Offices of Darrell C. Dethlefs
2132 Market Street
Camp Hill, Pennsylvania 17011
(717) 975-9446
[email protected]

I'm working on updating the website and this field of law will soon be included. www.dcdlaw.net (http://www.dcdlaw.net)

[rsatz28]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Ngtflyr]

Awesome, I assume your firm will only deal with cars bought in Pennsylvania. If so, at least it is a start and knowing lawyers it won't go unnoticed by other firms and hopefully some firms in other states will look into it. I'm thinking some of you "experts" could make some $$ as an "expert witnesses" when a case comes up. Can't believe I am encouraging lawyers, but something has to be done to put the brakes on this trend.

[Hylton]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

I can forward you the names of a few victims but they are not necessarily from PA.

[elcamino72]

We can intially handle any case. If the case were to have to go to court, we would have to refer the case to a local lawyer in the state where suit would have to be filed, but we can certainly handle the case.

[Keith Tedford]

When selling a car, it might be wise to take a lot of pictures in case of problems down the road. A full description of the car, acknowledged with the signature of the buyer, might be good as well. Down the road,if the car were to be built into a fake, you would have a defense. When the faker is caught he will probably try to blame one of the previous owners which might be you. It's getting to the point where I don't even want to sell any of our cars without involving a lawyer. Too bad. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[firstgenaddict]

I am giving an atta boy to a lawyer... what is the world coming to?
Go get them... there is way too much fraud going on nowadays with the faked build sheets, POP's etc.
I believe that ebay will give out info on the sellers as well as the buyers id's if hit with a lawsuit.
Plus the paper can be tested to determine the chemistry used to during the pulping process.

[king_midas]

Hey Brian,

A nice and very noble idea, and I hate thieves too. But, some real issues to think about when getting involved in something like this:

1. It's very difficult to establish the "expert" status that is necessary to prosecute a fraud. Any transactions that are not via a dealer will not be prosecutable within a court of law.
2. Dealers, when faced with prosecution, will most likely squirm like an octopus in a bucket. Or, they will simply go out of business and hide behind the protection of being incorporated. Like they say, you can't get blood from a turnip. When faced with paying out, you gotta think a dealer would simply say "The company doesn't have the money" or, "that motor was correct when I sold it". A phony photo of some casting numbers, a Photoshop session, and voila-- Original, matching numbers after-the-fact. The criminal mind is devious.
3. You already identified perhaps your biggest problem-- Establishing jurisdiction, and handling by-state lawsuits. A logistical nightmare to say the least, especially when people/titles/registrations move often, etc... Yikes.

I think there is a reason you don't see lawyers messing around with collector car fraud. The problem you have currently is that musclecars are far too common-- There are lots of them, they share parts, ownership changes seeminly exponentially-- Fradulently sold cars may have changed hands numerous times over the years, and how do you determine culpability? "I didn't do it" is a likely response. A chain of lawsuits will not get anyone anything. Now, if you're talking about a Ferrari 250 GTO or some kind of an exotic, then you've got something to base a lawsuit upon-- Owner history is much more direct, and most importantly, there is enough money within the suit to make it worth your while.

The best defense is, and has always been, being an informed buyer. The way the market currently is, non-knowledgeable buyers will get burned. There's too much hype, and demand equals opportunity. I can personally remember looking at Hemmings in the mid-to-late 80's and thinking that there are more 435 Corvettes than they ever produced, so the currently state of affairs is nothing new. It's much like that old saying, that the biggest lies are done right out in front of people.

Anyone that is buying a '69 Z has to know that the odds of it being legit are slim to none... They made zillions of '69 Ca-mullets, and changing a fuel line, springs, adding a clutch pedal, some emblems, etc... (all parts that are readily available repro) to a plain-jane V8 car is just too easy, especially if it's a LOS built car. Chevrolet cars in particular were not built new to be collectable 35 years later (engines/transmissions not in the VIN).

Anyway, good luck. I'm not saying it can't be done, and if you pull it off, who knows-- Maybe you'll strike it big. It's going to be a tough one, though.

Oh, I almost forgot-- Can I send this bill for consultation to your attention? Ha ha... Just kidding.

Good luck!

[69LM1]

"3. You already identified perhaps your biggest problem-- Establishing jurisdiction, and handling by-state lawsuits. A logistical nightmare to say the least, especially when people/titles/registrations move often, etc... Yikes."

Could'nt it be handled by grouping firms like meritas does now?

[ZL1#17]

WOW, what a great thread. HATS OFF TO BRIAN! Did I say that loud enough? In response to King Midas, and by the way I do agree, fraud is far too common.
King Midas you state:
1) “Expert status is difficult to establish” huh? I know that if I want a Z/28, COPO, or ZL-1 certified all I have to do is call Jerry MacNeish. He is nationally licensed and certified.
2) Dealers can’t hide. I know for a fact, a dealer can loose their license and go to jail if they commit fraud. Most dealers will try to make it right before the case even goes to trial. I have read many instances (including this board) were the dealer took the car back because they knew that they falsely misrepresented the car.
3) Who cares how many times a car changes hands? It’s the seller who represents the car who is solely responsible for delivering that car for what they said it was. I believe the politically correct term is taking responsibility for your actions.
If I buy a Ferrari 250 GTO or some other kind of exotic and I decide to replace the engine or whatever on the car and then decide to sell it as “all original” it is me the seller who is responsible for that sale, not the previous owners. Now, let’s say I bought the Ferrari with out an original part and it was sold to me as “all original”. That does not give me the right to re-sell it as “all original”, or an excuse such as “that’s how I bought it”. AGAIN I APPLAUD BRYAN W. SHOOK, and wish him the best with his new career.

[elcamino72]

First off, thanks for supporting me guys!

To address some of the concerns:

1. I will not have a problem obtaining experts, as stated by other members of this board; there are plenty of guys out there I can qualify in front of a judge as an expert.

2. Dealers can't hide. Sure they may be able to hide some assets, but corporations can be pierced and it is possible to go after the incorporators and any agents or employees. If a client has a civil cause of action against the seller he may also have a criminal cause of action against the seller which could possibly be turned over to the Attorney General for the state we are dealing with.

3. Jurisdiction - The firm I am working for, The Law Offices of Darrell C. Dethlefs, has contacts with attorneys in all 50 states and a networks is being set up to handle these cases no matter where they arise.

We will handle ANY vehicle fraud cases, Ferrari 250's, Mercedes 190SL, 300SL, Z/28, LS6, SS, L89, etc, anything. Even Ford and Mopar products. Fraudulent car appraisals, restoration misrepresentations, car is sold as "all numbers matching", but has a "CE" motor, etc. If a seller claims a car is something that it isn't, its fraud. If a seller or restoration shop is restamping engine blocks, putting them in cars and selling the cars as numbers matching all original, that’s fraud and misrepresentation.

Another thing to think about that we will be handling is inherent diminished value. This is when you purchase a high dollar car; take a Porsche for instance. You paid $100,000 brand new, right afer you purchase it, you have it appraised and it comes in at $95,000 (just because you drove it off the lot). You have it for a week, it has no miles on it and someone hits it. Insurance fixes the car and you get it re-appraised. Now the appraisal comes in at $85,000 just because it was hit. The car looks new, functions as new, but it has had major repairs. The difference between the $95,000 it was worth and the $85,000 it's now worth is an inherent value loss and I'm of the opinion that since your car is supposed to be returned to it's pre-accident condition, but now it's worth $10,000 less. I would like to try one or two of these cases because I believe the insurance company owes you a duty to get the car back to baseline ($95,000) and they should pay you for its inherent loss. If you were dealing with a Ford Focus, who would care, and the inherent loss would be too small to even worry about, but with a high-end car we are talking big dollars.

There is too much fraud in our hobby. Too many cowl tags trading hands on eBay, too many base Camaros being turned into Z28's and sold as original Z28's, etc. It's a wide spread problem and I'm trying to bring some legitimacy back to our hobby. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[69LM1]

How do you plan to handle the cases where they are "selling for a friend" and the info is "only what he/she told me" line, especially that you see on the dealers sites where many of these cars are on consignment? Seems as if the seller blames the dealer and the dealer blames the seller.

Point it case: I sold a LM1 at a auction on the MS gulf coast a few years back. The auctioneer stated MANY untruths about the car, things that I had never stated. Luckily, I was able to catch the winner and set him straight, and as the car was nice, he still wanted it and it worked out great. Could have been bad.

Finally, I know there is probably not much money in it, but what about action against sites like trimtags.com, that started out where you had to produce proof that you owned a car to get that trim tag to now where they will make anything you want no ? asked. That would help alot!

[elcamino72]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you plan to handle the cases where they are "selling for a friend" and the info is "only what he/she told me" line, especially that you see on the dealers sites where many of these cars are on consignment?

[/ QUOTE ]

The seller (owner of the car) is committing fraud by misrepresenting the car so the buyer has a case against the owner of the car. Now the case with consignments; if the consignment seller (person merely selling the car) knows the car is fake and still sells the car as legit, that's fraud and the buyer has a case against him as well.

Now the auction case is a little different, both guys are on the hook, both the auction company and the seller. The seller is on the hook unless he comes clean to the buyer (like you did 69LM1), but if the seller was to stay silient, that's fraud.

[agtw31]

i guess personal injury is a little too competitive for you.

[Donutblue]

Bryan, congrat's on what you plan on undertaking but I think you should disclose a little more on this site as to what this can cost $$ the collector. We all know lawyers get their cake win or lose. You and I know first hand that the target of the lawsuit must have the funds or real property to make this lawsuit worth your victim's efforts, and to be fair about it your victim will look to recover their large legal fees as well. Maybe you should consider a pro-bono case or two just to get your name out there. On another note, victims should be aware that they can probably approach a State Attorney Generals office, they can not only go after the target with civil repriasals but criminal -- and they can go after someone out of state. Additonally, the State AG does not charge you $$$.

[novadude]

Off Topic: Bryan, I live pretty close to your office. I am in Hampden Twp, and I own a '65 Nova SS clone (and I never tell anyone it is a REAL SS! LOL)

[mrrec]

Go get 'em tiger! I believe many lawsuits are initiated just to line pockets, but a few high profile collector car fraud cases may go a long way to slow some of the scoundrels down....
Dave

[Canucklehead]

Legal action agaisnt fraudsters should include legal fees for recovering of any loss to the victum. However as far as making it worth while for our "lowly" muscle cars (as compared to the exotics), take for example a recent ZL1 clone that sold for approx. 100k, when a real one would fetch approx. 1 mill thats a 900k difference? To me thats worth going after the guy for, and why would he just go out of buisness he obviously still has his 900k profit somewhere and should be recovarable. With the price of muscle cars now reaching millions this is something that has to be started now before it gets out of hand.

[king_midas]

I don't doubt you'll not have a problem finding experts. Getting them to testify in court is another matter entirely, as they'll probably not do it out of the kindness of their hearts. The Jerry Macneish comment-- I'm sure he'll fly all over the country to appear in court to testify. Uh huh...

The real issue, and what I was referring to by the "expert" comment, is the inability to actually prosecute private sellers for fraud because proving that they should have known of the fraud prior to sale would be impossible. Long story short, unless you can prove that the seller is an expert, you cannot prosecute them for fraud. Here's why, via an example: I'm a normal guy that sold a fradulently misrepresented vehicle, and yeah, I knowingly switched body tags, rebodied a VIN, kissed your wife and winked at your daughter in the process, what have you. However, my defense is that I bought it this way; "I don't know nothin'", and I didn't know that it was misrepresented, because hey, I'm not an expert-- I'm just a guy that sells a few cars a year, maybe makes a few bucks... How am I supposed to know, I'm just a novice car owner-- I also collect hats and like my riding lawnmowers, by the way. I don't buy and sell vehicles for a living. Just like in this example, the court cannot hold a private individual in the same regard that someone that does buy/sell for a living (i.e.: Dealer), and the transaction once again is simply buyer beware.

Dealers have their own ways of dealing with trouble, and depending on their available resources, they could reimburse, can appeal, blow it off, etc... Courts expect reasonable people to work it out between themselves first, and court is the last resort. Couple this with logistics such as court dates in advance, courts are already clogged, determining jurisdication, etc. A case of fraud, even if it's seemingly iron-clad, will probably never reach the stage of prosecution anyway. It would be settled
via mediation, leaving the guilty party free to do the same thing again (because there's too much money in it for them not to). And, even if a court orders someone to pay up, it doesn't guarantee that the guilty party will act-- Look at the O.J. case...

You've also probably noticed that e-bay and other outlets of sale have taken puffery to the next level. This will also be a very convenient defense in the case of a misrepresented vehicle-- Take a look at some of the ads on e-bay, and you'll most likely notice that sellers, and
specifically dealers, are very careful as to what they state regarding selling.

That ZL1 comment-- I don't even know where that's coming from... There are 69 cars, and they are all known, so very little chance of fraud there. That's why people clone Z's and Chevelles-- It's easy to do with success.

I just googled collector car fraud, car fraud, etc...-- The type of fraud that Brian is referring to, and noting came up as a lawsuit. What does that tell you? It tells me that it's not successfully prosecuted.

By the way, what's a "victum"?

[bruno17]

"victum" is what you tell your wife to do when the tenant in the basement is too far behind on the rent.

[af1fe]

The Jerry Macneish comment-- I'm sure he'll fly all over the country to appear in court to testify. Uh huh...

Jerry has also been known to drive to testify!

[Verne_Frantz]

What is a "jurisdication"??

Now, does "victum" still seem like such a big deal?
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[fdny37]

This is no knock on attorneys but I feel King Midas makes a legitimate point. How many times have peolpe been told by an attorney___Well....you really don't have much of a case because the guy doesn't know anything or own anything. It really is a sad state of affairs for the guy who always wanted a muscle car but really doesn't know much about them. He's the guy that's going to take the hit. I've been a car guy all my life and I didn't realize how important it is to do your homework and ask a ton of questions.

[firstgenaddict]

What you will get is alot of car dealers that will become dumb and clueless http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif when they go to court... the same ones that were the know it all experts when they sold you the car.

[COPO427]

I still like the rope over a tree like they did in the real west.

[PeteLeathersac]

[ QUOTE ]
I still like the rope over a tree like they did in the real west.

[/ QUOTE ]

When you've got the tree and rope set up, it'd be nice to let this guy be one of the first to swing....he's that 'Lex Luthor' of the Chevy world that sells the 'aged documents' on eBay. .

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1967-72-C...1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1967-72-CORVETTE-CUSTOM-TANK-STICKER-FOR-YOUR-CAR_W0QQitemZ4644846258QQcategoryZ10076QQrdZ1QQcmd ZViewItem)

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
~ Pete

[rsatz28]

He know's exactly what the winners are doing with these, and he know's it by keeping the id's private. He is contributing to problem. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1967-72-C...1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1967-72-CORVETTE-CUSTOM-TANK-STICKER-FOR-YOUR-CAR_W0QQitemZ4644846258QQcategoryZ10076QQrdZ1QQcmd ZViewItem)

NOTE .........THESE ARE MADE FOR NOVELTY AND PERSONAL USE ONLY ,NOT FOR RESELLING OF CARS

[firstgenaddict]

I believe that if hit by some law suits ebay will expose the auction winners...
There is no legitimate reason to have an aged document like the ones he sells. Not for fun... for wow factor... nothing, he can put all the disclaimers he wants in his ad.

It is like fake birth certificates, SS cards, etc. You may want a birth certificate that says you are John Wayne and it may be neat to have it, it may even be a conversation piece but that does not make the producer of the document any less guilty of forgery.
The difference is that he is guilty of a crime and for some reason the forgery of "authentic documents" is not a crime.
Disclaimer or not doesn't this guy bear some responsibility for the illegitimate use of his docs?
He knows exactly what they are being used for... or else he would sell them with out the "aging".

[elcamino72]

Guys, first off, I really appreciate all of the positive comments. Second, I have all the faith in the world in the group of attorneys I’m working with, if fraud happens, we are committed to flushing it out. As for what this can cost, it all depends, every state is different and in Pennsylvania you are not allowed to advertise a flat fee for work like this because each case is different. Hopefully a majority of these cases will only take a phone call and a letter or two and they can be settled, if the odd few go further, we’ll have the ammunition and knowledge to be successful. Expert witnesses will not be a problem, car experts are no different than medical experts, they are still experts, once qualified in front of a judge, and the expert can charge a reasonable fee and have all his expenses paid for testifying. As for the aged paperwork, I agree what is the legitimate use/need for it?

Thanks again guys for supporting us on this, it means a lot. I really want to make a difference and I have my whole career to do so. I’m a car enthusiast, first and foremost, I own over 8 classic/collector vehicles and I know what the hobby means to all of you guys. I know if we all work together we can make a difference. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/youguysrock.gif *(these smileys are the greatest)*

Bryan Shook
[email protected]
717-975-9446

[ohhawk]

The pioneers get the arrows but they eventually get the land.


Best to you and your firm!

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Hey Bryan,
Can I sue the PA-DOT for losing the records on my '69 Nova SS? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif I was able to trace it back to a bank and Sunderland Chev. in Lemoyne, PA - but not further bec/ PA says 'it's an error' http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Verne_Frantz]

Marlin,
I heard that no PA records go back any further than '72 due the huge flood that wiped through Harrisburg.

Verne

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Verne, you got some bad info, I have a book of records that go back much further than '72. The 'flood' is a commonly used excuse, but when pressured the DOT will only call it 'an error' http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif My '69 must be cursed because it's not in the NICB database either http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[kwhizz]

[ QUOTE ]
Verne, you got some bad info, I have a book of records that go back much further than '72. The 'flood' is a commonly used excuse, but when pressured the DOT will only call it 'an error' http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif My '69 must be cursed because it's not in the NICB database either http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


Maybe it's a Clone...........LOL......Just Kidding.. M

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[Les Quam]

Bryan,
I have no doubt your heart is in the right place and having been licensed to practice law since 1983 and also being licensed in four different states I have had my share of experience with collector car fraud as you put it. Most of my collector car fraud experience is from helping friends and neighbors with their various car problems and I have never charged them a dime for my time. I assume you and your firm will not be working pro bono and will be charging your firms standard hourly rate after also receiving a retainer with each case? If I am mistaken please correct me? I can't imagine your firms hourly rate is less than 200 dollars an hour presently?

If your firm retains an attorney in another jurisdiction and motions that jurisdictions court for a pro hoc vice motion to allow your firm to represent a client in that foriegn jurisdiction that will be quite costly for the client. And unless the value of the car in question has at least a six figure value or more most such litigation is cost prohibitive for the client. Each jusrisdictions laws are different as to when a losing party must pay the winners attorney's's fee's. Most often if the loser has a good faith defense attorney's fee's are not awarded.

Only a few large well known dealers will resolve a problem with a few letters as you state. Most dealers are shell corporations or minimally capitalized and could care less if they become involved in a litigation. They just close down and move to another location under another name and continue with their fraud.

With Chevy's it is almost impossible(which is why I don't own any) to prove fraud because unlike Pontiac's and Fords the factories have suppiled little or no support to document how a car left the factory. For every expert you find to prove a car is a fraud the defense can find their own expert to say the car is legitimate. Having an abundance of trial experience I can tell you their is an expert available to testify to anything an attorney should need.

The other inherent difficulty is most often times a car is finally determined to be a fraud after being sold numerous times over several years and it's virtually impossible to determine who actually created the fraudlent parts and introduced it into the stream of commerce. Most often 4 or 5 successive owners over a long period of time all honestly thought for example their Camaro was a real L-78 when they sold it until one day someone finally figures it out. Very difficult to establish liability in that case.

IMHO the real fertile ground for an ambitious young lawyer fresh out of law school seeking to quell collector car fraud is the well known muscle car auction houses. These so called "no reserve" auctions are for the most part a sham with chandlier bidding common place and buyers buying back their cars at no fee's in many cases. This practice which is getting more well known and common place is a treasure trove for antitrust lawyers. Look up and research the recent litigation and subsequent criminal issues Sotheby's and the other high end art houses were subjected to for doing exactly what the current muscle car auction houses are doing now. These auctions houses are driving up the prices of muscle cars on a global scale using phantom bidders and bogus scams to increase their fee's and it hurts all potential buyers trying to afford a muscle car.

I admire your desire to help stop muscle car fraud and am in complete agreement with you that fraud is rampant in our hobby and needs to be attacked. However the reason it exists after 30 something years of muscle car mania and fraud is because it is damn near impossible to stop it. Nine out of every ten calls I get for help in a case of collector car fraud involve a Chevy most of them are Camaro's. In most case the dealer has no assets or it was purchased "as is" "where is" at an auction who has no responsiblity to research the thousand or so cars it consigns for authenticity.

Please don't take my comments as an attack on your post I am just sharing my thoughts and experience. Keep up the good work.

Again I respect where your heart is and don't want to deter you in any way. Good luck.

[70 copo]

Les,

Well stated. Sad but true. The buyer has got to know what he is buying today.

[elcamino72]

Les, I truly appreciate all of your comments and insight, it means a great deal to me. I understand the problems with pursuing these collector car cases however with the value of the legit cars going through the roof; the discrepancy between a legit car and a clone can be in the six figure range. I believe that a buyer of one of these vehicles should have a place to turn to get some relief. As a true enthusiast, I can empathize with the buyer and I feel strongly that this fraud in our market as go on too long. The prevailing hourly rate for our firm is less than $200 an hour. You are correct, making the other side pay the buyer’s legal fees may be difficult, but it is something we would certainly actively pursue.

This board’s enthusiasm is wonderful and I hope that by putting this out there, we can show that there may be a legal recourse after you find out the car you bought isn’t the car you thought it was. While buyer beware is the best defense, sometimes even a somewhat informed buyer can get tricked.

[Hotrodpaul]

I think the responsibility rests with the buyer. I feel that anyone buying a car of this type for an investment should educate him or her self and do the research necessary to know what they are buying. All too often emotion takes over and we tend to get in a hurry, plunking down our hard earned cash in a rush to get the car. I have done it in the past. There are many books, publications, forums, and experts to draw knowledge from that could go a long way in preventing this type of fraud.

Paul

[Les Quam]

Go get em Bryan!!!!

I have been closely following a dealer down south and some of his more dubious transactions and sooner or later I will put him out of business. I just need to find the rebodied car with the bogus tags he put on this specific car and sold not to long ago. Like corpus Delecti I need a body , but once I find the car I will put him out of business. That is of course unless he told the new owner of this six figure plus car it was a rebody with a repop fender tag and an VIN number from another car???? LOL

[AutoInsane]

For a good resource on auto related legal matters check out the Legal Files (I believe that is the name of the column) in Sports Car Market. Many issues including liability and fraud have been covered. Most often these cases do seem to involve $400,000 to 1 million plus dollar cars.

www.SportsCarMarket.com (http://www.SportsCarMarket.com) <-- best magazine!!

[BARN FIND]

[ QUOTE ]
Verne, you got some bad info, I have a book of records that go back much further than '72. The 'flood' is a commonly used excuse, but when pressured the DOT will only call it 'an error' http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif My '69 must be cursed because it's not in the NICB database either http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

How extensive are your records going back to 1972. I am interested in the PA records between 71 and 78.

[Lynn]

Wanted to ad my 02 cents. Lots of valid points. Les, you are correct in many ways. However, even with a Camaro, it MAY be possible to prove fraud. It just takes some investigation and a little luck. VIN searches that are usually off limits are available for "investigation in anticipation of litigation". I was able to pinpoint the timeframe when a fake X33 tag was installed on a car. I realize it may not be that easy each time.

No, we can't stop every case, but I honestly believe we can stop the most blatant ones.

I have a case pending against a dealer in Southern Oklahoma. Email me if you want a copy of the Petition. It is a monster file in tif format, about 8.5mb. Frankly, I don't care if I have to hound the seller the rest of his life, as long as he quits committing this kind of fraud.

A judgment based on fraud is NOT dischargeable in Bankruptcy.

For those who believe it is "all" on the buyer to determine, I must respectfully disagree. Sure, diligence in having the car checked out thouroughly is great. However, if someone represents the trim tag info as correct and original KNOWING that it is a fake tag (especially when he put it on there) a novice buyer should be able to rely on that information. That isn't puffery. It is fraud. For those reading this who may have been burned by obvious fraud, and have sought help from private attorneys without luck, contact your state's Attorney General. Most states have consumer fraud divisions. You may need to do some of your own investigation, but it is another avenue worth pursuing.

Lastly, if you know anyone in your state legislature, request a meeting. Tell them about the rampant fraud being perpetrated with these fake (notice I did not call it a REPRODUCTION - IT DOES NOT REPRODUCE anything 99.9% of the time) trim tags, and ask if they will consider sponsoring a bill that will outlaw the sale of those tags "for use in the state of __________". I have just requested such a meeting, and hopefully by this time next year, it will be illegal to sell a fake tag for use in Oklahoma.

Will keep you posted.

Lynn Bilodeau

[elcamino72]

Alright guys, I have the website up and running. Please bookmark it so that you can easily find it in the future.

http://www.dcdlaw.net/carfraud.htm

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[68SSCamaro]

Are you able to obtain the NICB microfiche records for an open case? Maybe a way to get them for a car?

[L30M20]

Hello everyone, Very interesting topic. I always try to follow a simple rule when looking to purchase, or purchasing a car. Price ratio/documents supplied- If not documents can be supplied the car should be priced and purchased as a "Clone". And the purchse price should reflect that. If the new owner later locates legal, truthfull documentation about the car, then so much the better. We all know about the "aged" build sheets from our friend B from up North, with the laser printed sheets on modern paper, as stated in previous posts, the paper can be carbon dated if in doubt. Whats $500-$1000 on a 6 figure car? Why is that all these aged build sheets have a rusty spring imprint on them????? All sheets found by individuals haven't been found carefully tucked between spring row 1 and row 6. He-He And while i'm ranting, why is it that every 1000 point, best of best yada-yada cars have a pretty dark blue ac oil filter showing on all those 47 underbody shots. My god man, can't you simply buy a couple extra filters, scuff, and spray can them gloss white? Or spring for the 28 bucks and get the Genuiene Imitation GM filter. Well anyway the moral of my story: NO LEGITIMATE DOCS=BUY AT CLONE PRICE,no matter what B.S.that uncle al's sisters-in-law told you about how it was stored at her uncles mothers house since new and she worked for the dealer that sold the car. Behind every car/owner ther is always a story, always. Later, craig--Oramac Restoratios

[HEMIBEE]

you can also go through the BS of flying to look at a car and makeing the buy, and when the car shows up, HU!!! wrong carb, hemi radiator is now a 318 unit,only a few digits off but there is 2000.00 diff, even the distributor and alternator, you know what i mean, your parts will be on ebay and its your word and the sellers word and he is out of state, seen this before, so even going and looking yourself might not even be enough in some cases.

[FallbrookAMO]

Excellent discussion. Unfortunately, I am entering this subdued fray a little late, however I am entering with all good intent. I am now 47 years old. From the time I was licensed to drive, I was a tried and true Chevy enthusiast. I owned these cars in the 70s when cloning was absolutely unheard of. 69' Chevelle 396/375s, 70' 1/2 350/360 Z/28s, 69' DZ 302s, Novas', Impalas, Vettes, etc, etc. You name them, I owned them.

At this point, I would not touch a "collectable" Chevy with a ten foot pole. Even with my level of experience and expertise. Vehicle fraud runs absolutely rampant amongst this mark, and as one individual previously stated, factory documentation in terms of trim/vin tags was minimal at best.

For the past 10 years or so, I have been an avid collector of AMCs. Do a Google search under "Ed Buscis". AMCs are.....peculiar, to say the least. However, engine/trans combinations are clearly designated in the vin. Trim codes, (interior and paint) are clearly stated on the trim tag. The dollar amount commanded for these vehicles was never significant (until as of late). For many years, these aforementioned factors helped to provide a "safer haven" for the AMC collector.

Now??? The same disgusting scumbags have infiltrated this marketplace also. So, as far as I'm concerned, ultimately two major important elements will help to protect yourself.

One. Due diligence.

Two. Caveat emptor.

I praise ANYONE for the noble cause of attempting to create and maintain a high degree of integrity in this marketplace. But with all due respect.....Good Luck. It seems to me that deception has become a greatly crafted, and finely honed skill for many of these dishonest individuals.

And ultimately? It is we, as the buyers and sellers of these vehicles, that will take the ultimate responsibilty for our actions. Crying over spilled milk, and then retaining the services of a skilled attorney to attempt to correct our mistakes, draws a close parallel to bringing a box of Band-Aids to a Russian Roulette party. Maybe you shouldn't of went in the first place.

Just my 2 cents.

Most Respectfully,
Ed Buscis

[elcamino72]

Ed, I very much appriciate your taking the time to post what you did. You are correct, due diligence and caveat emptor will only get you so far as you also noted. Even you with experience would shy away from a Chevy; this is precisely the reason I started this. I can't imagine the feeling in your stomach when you realize that you just spent six figures on a car only to find out it's worth half that because it's a clone, but was sold as an original. At that point, the hobby needs a place to turn, that's where my firm comes in, we can help you at that point. Stuff happens to good people, you do your homework, you do everything, but you bring the car home and you have been out foxed, the car has been misrepresented and fraud has occurred. At that point, you can email me, call me or check out the website www.dcdlaw.net/carfraud.htm (http://www.dcdlaw.net/carfraud.htm) and perhaps we can help. We've already been able to help several individuals in just this short period of time.