70-71 CAMARO BB 4SPD

[FMTHREE]

i know its fairley rare but how rare would a factory 1970-71 bb 4spd ss camaro be?its a factory black bucket interior car.

[CamarosRus]

Camaro WHITE BOOK reports 1553 LS-3 Camaros were built in 1971 and 970 built in 1972.......the LAST year for Big Block Camaros.........NO accurate info on how many were 4spd and how many were Turbo 400.

[AutoInsane]

L-78 375 / 396? or one of the lower HP 396's?

[akcamaro]

nastyz28.com has how many were made with each individual option listed, but with combinations of options it is unknown. you should first find out which big block you have; L78, L34, or LS3. just to ballbark it with 120,000 camaros in 70 and 2400 of those being 396 and half of those being 4speeds your around 1 in every 100. and these figures are very ballbark because all the L78s came 4speed.

[Mr70]

..."and these figures are very ballbark because all the L78s came 4speed."

I think Mr.Lillard might have something to say about that.

[Fhakya]

uh oh...not this topic again.

[Xplantdad]

Mark, Did you get something in the mail?

[Charley Lillard]

I'll still bet 5K they made at least one L78 auto... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Mr70]

Well Hello Mr.Lillard.

[70 copo]

Ok what would be the basis for "no auto" in an L-78? ZL-1's and L-72's had them already in '69. Clearly the TH tranny was stout enough to handle the power, and of note is the fact that automatics were phased in for the Z-28 in 70 also. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[Hotrodpaul]

Somebody must have and options list or order sheet from back in 70 to confirm or deny the rumor of an Auto L-78 Camaro??? Could it have been a COPO option for someone who really wanted it? You see many LS-6 Auto Chevelle's and some L-78 Auto 69 Camaro's so why not a L-78 Auto 70 Camaro?

Paul

[akcamaro]

the no auto in a 70 L78 camaro subject has been beaten to death at nastyz28, and until someone comes up with documented proof otherwise, I'm standing by my uninformed gossip. There is rumor that someone in California has one, but isnt willing to let anyone look at it or take pix.
could you get a 70 L78 chevelle with auto?

[70-SS/RS-L78]

[ QUOTE ]
..."and these figures are very ballbark because all the L78s came 4speed."

I think Mr.Lillard might have something to say about that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hear we go again. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[Mr70]

Yes,but I've only found 3 out of 200 so far,including MINE. (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/77826/an/0/page/3#77826) http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif
If anyone has proof of another 1970 L-78/TH400 Chevelle,please let me know.
I too believe that at least one had to be built with the Camaro,but Tonawanda records & salemans materials would indicate differently.
The 1970 L-78 Novas seem to be the model most favored by the TH400.
In fun,we subtly gang up on Charley as he has seen the paper for this example,but can't get pics of its paperwork.
Quite honestly,if Charley says it does exist,that's good enough for me.

[Jeff H]

Is there actually a different engine code designating the automatic on that 1970 TH400 L78 car? I just think it would be very cool for the hobby to see this documented car. Kind of reminds me of the 68 Z28 convertible that was never made.

[Mr70]

CTY was the code shared by the 1970 L-78/TH400 Camaro-Nova-Chevelle/Elcos.
CKP if it's one of the 18 Aluminum Headed Chevelles w/TH400.

[Charley Lillard]

I have not seen the build sheet but friends have and the owner is not one to make stuff up. I have seen the car but didn't bother to examine it closely because I wasn't aware of all the controversy at the time. He has probably owned the car for 20 years. He used to use it as his tow car to tow one of his other 70's to the drags. Another member here has seen the sheet. No takers on the 5K bet ?

[Steve Shauger]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[CamarosRus]

Everybody on this board has a certain speciality, niche, or passion re: the musclecar hobby. Mine happens to be 1970 Camaros. I ordered my 1st 70 Z-28 new, after returning from Viet-Nam in 1969. I currently own three 1970 Camaros; 1) R/S Z-28, R/S SS L-48 & SS L-78. I have been serving as a Camaros at Carlisle 2nd Gen Legends judge since 2004 (1st year of 2nd Gen Legends) and also judged with the old USCC.
Having said all that I DO NOT claim to know it all.
I have been involved in this controversial 1970 L-78/Turbo 400 argument for longer than I can now remember. BKH refered someone from NHRA(drag racing)to me, via E-mail.
A racer had been using a 70 Camaro Big Block with T-400 to compete in the Stock/Automatic class. Somebody in NHRA then started dissallowing the car, challenging if that combo had ever existed. The NHRA official asked me to investigate, as I could not answer him directly. I have spent the past 7yrs on the internet posting, having discussions, judging car shows, making & receiving phone calls on this 70 L-78/T-400
issue. NO ONE has ever been able to show me any evidence, brochure, literature, pictures, statement saying WITHOUT DOUBT they ever wittnessed such a car.
With 600 1970 L-78 originally built and maybe 100 (wild ass guess) still around, you would think that SOMEBODY would have knowledge or proof of ONE ever being built
It would be easy to change a 4sp L-78 to a T-400, except for removing the 4spd hump and having floor appear as factory auto. A person could install L-78 powertrain and L-78 VIN Tag into L-34/T-400 body. SEEING the L.A. build sheet of Jack's and having impartial 1st Gen Judges inspect the car hopefully would settle this never ending discussion.
I'm not willing to get into a $5K "pixxing contest" with Charley over this. I would be willing to contribute $$$ toward the expenses of having a legitimate FULL INSPECTION of this car. This would at a minimum show Engine block assy stamping, VIN stamping, T-400 stamping, 12 Bolt stamping, TRIM TAG authenticity and rivets, VanNuys build sheet, and unlikely to happen Firewall Vin stamping. Other misc dated parts could also point to this car being assembled or a survivor.
Below are pictures of book pages written about the subject.
FYI, Mike Steitz another L-78 owner and 70/2nd Gen judge is trying to accumulate a L-78 registry at www.nasty28.com (http://www.nasty28.com) (Original Forum) but needs more participation/cooperation

Regards to all, Chuck

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/CamarosRus/Camaro%201970%20Resto%20Details/M40a.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/CamarosRus/Camaro%201970%20Resto%20Details/M40b.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/CamarosRus/Camaro%201970%20Resto%20Details/M40c.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/CamarosRus/Camaro%201970%20Resto%20Details/M40d.jpg

[DarrenX33]

I don't have this book but just out of curiosity what Antonick's credentials? Just wondering where he got his information.. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

I tend to agree that if Charley says there is one, there is. However, it is odd that the info on the car is so hard to obtain. I find it interesting that this is such a hot topic. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[SS427]

Reminds me of a certain LS-6 that was supposably manufactured in Oct or Nov 69 that Chuck Hanson and a select other few have seen. I respect the man beyond words but until someone can show me and other researchers a real piece of documentation it does not exist. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
Rick

[rsatz28]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't have this book but just out of curiosity what Antonick's credentials? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I did a quick Google search and many links with his name deal with Vettes.

[Late BrakeU2]

Paging Jim Mattison..

[DarrenX33]

You know that's what I was thinking to.. He is going to be at the reunion...

[Charley Lillard]

Darren...The info was not hard to obtain. The owner frequently brought the car to club meetings. He also frequently brought the build sheet in a binder with him. He dug his heels in when basically he had his car called a fake by Chuck. This guy has owned and probably owns more 70 Camaro's than Chuck ever has. To him there is no other Camaro than a 70. I'm sure he would probably allow me a day to look the car over but it is not high on my list of things to do.
I don't need to get into a pissing contest. I am just making my point that I am that sure the car and build sheet are real by offering to bet 5K. If anyone such as Chuck is so absolutely sure that it is a fake I would think they would jump at the chance to make 5K.

[njsteve]

I do love when people quote selections from books written by experts that later prove to be incorrect. One of the best was the Mopar expert books that would consistently state that the nose cones on the Daytonas and Superbirds were made of fiberglass. Absolutely incorrect. They were all steel from the factory. One writer back in 1969 assumed they were glass before ever seeing a real car in person and then every book writer from then on quoted his assumption for the next 30 years even though everyone that owns/or owned one knew better. But you couldn't convince the experts otherwise until you literally rubbed their noses in it.

Hey, does anyone remember a time when no one believed that a 69 Camaro ever came with an aluminum 427?

[DarrenX33]

That part of the story I didn't know. Thanks Charley. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[70 copo]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't have this book but just out of curiosity what Antonick's credentials? Just wondering where he got his information.. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

I tend to agree that if Charley says there is one, there is. However, it is odd that the info on the car is so hard to obtain. I find it interesting that this is such a hot topic. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


I checked the Library here at the house and sure enough the original source seems to be Michael Lamm from his book "The Great Camaro" Lamm-Morada Publishing Co. ISBN 0-932128-00-9 (Third printing February 1980).

Page 114 Discusses the lack of TH as an option specifically on '70 with L-78.

Quote from the second paragraph: "with Turbo Hydro optional on all but the L-78 396"

Again on the same page in the 6th paragraph-quote: "In the Super Sport option (Z27; $289.65), the L-48 350 came standard, or you could order the L-34 or the L-78 396's with the 4 speed." "Turbo-Hydra-Matic was optional for the L-48 and the L-34."

Finally in the specifications section of this same book (on page 139) the "1970 Camaro Drivetrain chart" lists L-78 with TH for 1970 as N.O. (not offered)

Factual or not I am not taking a position on the matter at this point.

I will say that even by today's standards the writing of Lamm holds up very well factually even after all these years, however with only about 1/6th of the L-78's made (located to date) we can all speculate on what Chevy did or did not make.

At any rate -I think we have the original source of the information carried forward by Antonick in his book.

Phil

[njsteve]

BTW, here's a second generation GM F-body car that was never available, that just popped up on ebay. A black 1972 Trans Am. Everyone knows that they were only available in white or blue...everyone it ends up, but the guy at the factory that somehow got it built. Read the thread - all 5 pages. It's funny how it starts and how everybody is badmouthing the seller and the car (myself included) until the documents get posted and authenticated...then everyone, (myself included) tries to get the guy to sell after he decideds to keep it! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

In the end, until someone brings the documents and/or the car forward to be authenticated, it's still just a "maybe."


http://216.178.81.108/forums/showthread.php?s=5a95d0bb4c8aa11efbdfd01a5d66966d& t=486878

-Steve

[Rick H]

What are the chances someone can go look at the car?

Of course without having to pay $5,000 to do so.

Rick H.

[CamarosRus]

Is this the Camaro in question with Z-28 wheels and stripes ???? or is my picture of another "L-78" that VOLO had???


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v470/CamarosRus/70%20L78%20Camaro%20Misc/70.jpg

[Rick H]

[ QUOTE ]
Z-28 wheels and stripes ????

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

Rick H.

[Fhakya]

Here's the car in question:
http://www.yenko.net/attachments/219246-jackwhtext.JPG

[Fhakya]

Engine:
http://www.yenko.net/attachments/219247-jackwhteng.JPG

[Fhakya]

Tough to see, but the tach looks correct:

http://www.yenko.net/attachments/219248-jackwhtint.JPG

[Rick H]

Is this the same car Chuck posted above only with the correct wheels??

Rick H.

[70-SS/RS-L78]

No, Different car. This is the alleged M40/L78. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[Rick H]

[ QUOTE ]
No, Different car. This is the alleged M40/L78. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh?? There are 2 white 1970 SS/RS cars with incorrect stripes, one with Z/28 wheels and the other with correct rally wheels but the later is the supposedly L78/M40. What the...????? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif


Rick H.

[MosportGreen66]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No, Different car. This is the alleged M40/L78. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh?? There are 2 white 1970 SS/RS cars with incorrect stripes, one with Z/28 wheels and the other with correct rally wheels but the later is the supposedly L78/M40. What the...????? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif


Rick H.

[/ QUOTE ]

This has always been the car in question...
the other car from Volo has nothing to do with this thread.
Different cars, similar color combo.

Edit:
The car in question has its Z21 style trim in place... Volo's does not.
The car in question has stripes that stop mid way to the endura nose, Volo's stripes run to the endura nose.

[Rick H]

Whatever, I guess my point is when I see things that are incorrect I start to question the authenticity of the car.

Maybe the buildsheet will show the Z/28 stripes as well. That would answer a ton of other questions.

Of course nobody answered my post asking if someone can come look at the car. Or is it a national secret and will cost $5k to look at it?!


Rick H.

[MagicRatt]

This is some good reading....once again. I've been working in and out of car dealers since 1985 and I have seen some crazy things go on. Who's to say that this car was sitting on a lot back in the day without seeing any interest until somebody came along and told the GM of the store that they would buy the car if it had an automatic trans in it. Sometimes GM's will jump thru hoops to move old inventory off the lot. Putting a deal together that included a trans swap wouldn't surprise me at all. I am in no way saying that the car is a fake. Is the current owner of the car also the original owner? Just some food for thought.....

Rich

[Rick H]

Reading the whole thread you would see that there is rumor of a buildsheet with the car in question that supports the M40 option so the tranny swap theory wouldn't apply.



Rick H.

[THNDER]

I would just like to take a minute here, and stick up for Chuck. Chuck is an often misunderstood, misinterpreted guy, but i have figured out, after getting to know him at Carlisle and at the Super car reunion events that he just wants to find out the truth. I don't beleive he ever said the car was a fake, but rather asked for proof of authenticity. There is a differance. All known documentation that exists, including the AMA specification sheets that comes in the folder of information from GM when you call the 1-800 number shows the 70 L78 Camaro was not available with M40 auto transmission. I understand the fact that auto equipped novas and chevelles with L78 were produced, but until THIS car came along, the pattern seems to be that ALL 70' L78 Camaros were 4 speed cars. I personally don't care if it exists or not. I bet the NHRA drag racers who want to run this combo do. If the car is real,fine. If it is not, well that is fine too. Thanks for the site Tom. Mike

[Rick H]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Rick H.

[70 copo]

On the cosmetics side of the discussion on this car you may recall that the Second generation guys have an open topic on SS Camaros with Z-28 stripes:

http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28406

(Please read the entire thread)

Now ask this: Why would you build a car that no one thinks really exists? You are not going to try to sell it with putting up with a boat load of crap (Example L-78 Auto car), Now the same with the alleged SS stripe cars, yet they keep popping up for sale? (SS camaro with stripes)

Comments?

Phil http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[DarrenX33]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you build a car that no one thinks really exists?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm still getting up to speed on 2nd gens. But, back in 1970 when someone walked into the dealership and looked at the brochure for Camaros. Isn't it true that the L78 wasn't even listed? Therefore, the L78 didn't really exist back then either? Let alone with an auto trans???

[Gregs396]

I recall reading the post about the SS cars and them having stripes too. There was one guy who had a trim tag with the
Z27 code followed by a stripe code as well. I don't remember what the final outcome of that topic was, as far as it being authentic or not.
On the L78 TH-400 topic, I don't know a lot about these cars, and haven't really seen very many of them either. My only question is why wouldn't they offer the TH-400 in an L78 Camaro given that they did have it in other cars with that engine as well as the 454's?

[BARN FIND]

[ QUOTE ]
Whatever, I guess my point is when I see things that are incorrect I start to question the authenticity of the car.

Maybe the buildsheet will show the Z/28 stripes as well. That would answer a ton of other questions.

Of course nobody answered my post asking if someone can come look at the car. Or is it a national secret and will cost $5k to look at it?!


Rick H.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think Charlie is saying it will cost 5k to look at it, I think he is saying he is so convinced that it is authentic that he will give 5k to anyone who proves him wrong. By the way, my 72 SS had stripes on it when I bought it in 78 and I took them off in 82 because I was told numerous times that they were not "correct".

[Rick H]

[ QUOTE ]
I think he is saying he is so convinced that it is authentic that he will give 5k to anyone who proves him wrong

[/ QUOTE ]

That is not what he said. He placed a bet which means if you loose you give him $5k and if he wins he gives you the money. That's how betting works. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

Rick H.

[Rick H]

[ QUOTE ]
I recall reading the post about the SS cars and them having stripes too. There was one guy who had a trim tag with the
Z27 code followed by a stripe code as well. I don't remember what the final outcome of that topic was, as far as it being authentic or not.
On the L78 TH-400 topic, I don't know a lot about these cars, and haven't really seen very many of them either. My only question is why wouldn't they offer the TH-400 in an L78 Camaro given that they did have it in other cars with that engine as well as the 454's?

[/ QUOTE ]

The final outcome is there never is a final outcome. Certain individuals post claims and after a 4-5 page thread it is never proven. Request are ignored and so on and so on.

There are certain people who feel that their word is gospel and nothing else needs to be proven. They said it's true so it must be.

I just don't see why it so friggin difficult to allow people to verify the car and it's alleged paperwork.

Unless it can be proven I myself stand by the understanding that there were NO 1970 L78/M 40's built. Also the stripe issue was never proven either. Show me the trim tag and supporting documentation and then I might change my mind.

Have a nice day.

Rick H.

[sYc]

<font color="red"> Unless it can be proven I myself stand by the understanding that there were NO 1970 L78/M 40's built. </font>

If so sure, take Charley up on his bet, an easy $5 grand. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[Steve Shauger]

Come on Rick H., proving Charley wrong and making 5 grand. It doesn't get better than that, and that money would sure come in handy on your 70 Z project. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Charley Lillard]

"There are certain people who feel that their word is gospel and nothing else needs to be proven. They said it's true so it must be."

Rick... Do you have any more insults for me ?

[Gregs396]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I recall reading the post about the SS cars and them having stripes too. There was one guy who had a trim tag with the
Z27 code followed by a stripe code as well. I don't remember what the final outcome of that topic was, as far as it being authentic or not.
On the L78 TH-400 topic, I don't know a lot about these cars, and haven't really seen very many of them either. My only question is why wouldn't they offer the TH-400 in an L78 Camaro given that they did have it in other cars with that engine as well as the 454's?

[/ QUOTE ]

The final outcome is there never is a final outcome. Certain individuals post claims and after a 4-5 page thread it is never proven. Request are ignored and so on and so on.

There are certain people who feel that their word is gospel and nothing else needs to be proven. They said it's true so it must be.

I just don't see why it so friggin difficult to allow people to verify the car and it's alleged paperwork.

Unless it can be proven I myself stand by the understanding that there were NO 1970 L78/M 40's built. Also the stripe issue was never proven either. Show me the trim tag and supporting documentation and then I might change my mind.

Have a nice day.

Rick H.

[/ QUOTE ]
There was actually a picture of this guys trim tag posted on nastyz28.com a while ago. The tag did have the Z27 code followed by a stripe code. I'm sure someone could find it in the archives, and post it here. I am not saying that I took that picture as 100% proof, as I couldn't tell if the tag was real by the picture posted.

[70 copo]

The photo is on the last page of the second generation thread.

The first thing people do today is say the "tag is fake".

IMO.. It is the easy way out of the debate if technical issues arise. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

Phil

[Chevy454]

[ QUOTE ]
I personally don't care if it exists or not. I bet the NHRA drag racers who want to run this combo do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, the class guys will tell you that the L78 is hampered by the automatic...in front of a stick is where it works it's magic...http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[Gregs396]

[ QUOTE ]
The photo is on the last page of the second generation thread.

The first thing people do today is say the "tag is fake".

IMO.. It is the easy way out of the debate if technical issues arise. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

Phil

[/ QUOTE ]
What area is it under, I did a search in the Trim Tag one with no luck??

[Rick H]

[ QUOTE ]
"There are certain people who feel that their word is gospel and nothing else needs to be proven. They said it's true so it must be."

Rick... Do you have any more insults for me ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Charley, i'm pretty sure I didn't mention your name and was directed at no one in particular.

Rick H.

[Rick H]

[ QUOTE ]
Come on Rick H., proving Charley wrong and making 5 grand. It doesn't get better than that, and that money would sure come in handy on your 70 Z project. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Steve, send me the 5 g's just in case. would ya? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif


Not trying to prove anybody wrong, just want to get the facts staight and if there is legit documents that prove what has been said then show them, have someone verify them, verify the car, etc.. Why is it so friggin hard to do this?


Rick H.

[70 copo]

[/ QUOTE ]What area is it under, I did a search in the Trim Tag one with no luck??

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28406&amp;page=4

Photo is included as part of post #47 in the thread.

Phil http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[70 copo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I recall reading the post about the SS cars and them having stripes too. There was one guy who had a trim tag with the
Z27 code followed by a stripe code as well. I don't remember what the final outcome of that topic was, as far as it being authentic or not.
On the L78 TH-400 topic, I don't know a lot about these cars, and haven't really seen very many of them either. My only question is why wouldn't they offer the TH-400 in an L78 Camaro given that they did have it in other cars with that engine as well as the 454's?

[/ QUOTE ]

The final outcome is there never is a final outcome. Certain individuals post claims and after a 4-5 page thread it is never proven. Request are ignored and so on and so on.

There are certain people who feel that their word is gospel and nothing else needs to be proven. They said it's true so it must be.

I just don't see why it so friggin difficult to allow people to verify the car and it's alleged paperwork.

Unless it can be proven I myself stand by the understanding that there were NO 1970 L78/M 40's built. Also the stripe issue was never proven either. Show me the trim tag and supporting documentation and then I might change my mind.

Have a nice day.

Rick H.

[/ QUOTE ]


Rick,

In reality I have looked at several striped SS cars over the years and two of them were L-78's. Some where the owner stated the "dealer had added the stripes" and some who claimed the stripes were applied by the factory. In the Nasty Z thread I commented several times (as you can see) on the SS cars with stripes were surfacing at that time.

I am simply keeping an open mind as to what could be out there. All the information to date says no stripes on an SS... So why do these cars keep popping up? I cannot think of a reason someone would repop a tag with a code that everyone in the'70-72 Camaro corner would question right from the start as being "wrong".

The same can be said with the L-78 auto car - hell who knows and who really cares?

The proper time to be critical of this car will be when and if it ever comes to market. Current owner seems happy with his car now- as it is not for sale.

Oh yea - one more thing on this recent (in context) quote from you reproduced again below:

"The final outcome is there never is a final outcome. Certain individuals post claims and after a 4-5 page thread it is never proven. Request are ignored and so on and so on."

"There are certain people who feel that their word is gospel and nothing else needs to be proven. They said it's true so it must be."



I posted quite a bit in that thread that you were commenting on... hmmm... Now you have me wondering-were you writing an opinion on me? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

Phil http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[Rick H]

What's that saying?? Paranoia runs deep.. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

To answer your last question Phil, No.

Rick H.

p.s. Let me ask this. Can anyone produce a 1970 Camaro SS, unrestored, original paint with factory stripes? With supporting documentation of course.

[Jeff H]

There are quite a few combinations that Chevy said they never built or offered that have popped up in recent years. So it would not surprise me if this L78/M40 turns out to be the real thing. And if it would benefit racers then I would think lots of people would like to see the proof behind this car. I can't say why the owner isn't more willing to share this information but hopefully some day he will change his mind.

[70 copo]

Rick,

Thanks I feel better already!

Perhaps one day I will get a '70 SS....

Phil http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
p.s. Let me ask this. Can anyone produce a 1970 Camaro SS, unrestored, original paint with factory stripes? With supporting documentation of course.

[/ QUOTE ]

and if they do, can I buy it? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[MagicRatt]

[ QUOTE ]
Reading the whole thread you would see that there is rumor of a buildsheet with the car in question that supports the M40 option so the tranny swap theory wouldn't apply.






Rick H.

[/ QUOTE ]


Rumor of a build sheet? Has anyone ever seen the build sheet with the M-40 code to squash the tranny swap theory??

Rich

[Charley Lillard]

Yes..At least 2 members of the Sacramento Camaro club have seen the build sheet.

[70 copo]

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y226/70COPO/Cnv1359.jpg


I had some time this Morning and took another look through the files and found this memo. While dated for mid '69 it does provide insight into engine carryover to '70.

The complicating issue with the memo and our topic is the Continuation of the '69 body well into '70 with Chevy calling it a '70 and then followed later by the "real" Chevrolet rollout of the new '70 Camaro in February.


Notabily both Colvin and Hooper agree on M-40 as an option on L-78 as follows:

Hooper in his book "The Illustrated Camaro Recogintion Guide 1970-1973" first on page 63 listing "CJL"- and later on page 129 - "Manual or automatic Transmission was available in any SS Camaro".

Also Colvin in his book "1970-75 Chevrolet by the numbers" (on page 58) actually lists two seperate three letter codes for L-78 Camaro and TH in 1970. CJL and CTY. Colvin however does not discuss the carryover engine issue which could mean that when the CJL carryover engines were all used then CTY could have been the later (post) February '70 Camaro L-78/M-40 engine.

Time will tell http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

Phil

[70-SS/RS-L78]

Did we ever come to a conclusion on why GM Over Bored the 396 in 1970? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[COPO]

[ QUOTE ]
Did we ever come to a conclusion on why GM Over Bored the 396 in 1970? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I recall it had something to do with emmissions.

[Rick H]

[ QUOTE ]
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y226/70COPO/Cnv1359.jpg


I had some time this Morning and took another look through the files and found this memo. While dated for mid '69 it does provide insight into engine carryover to '70.

The complicating issue with the memo and our topic is the Continuation of the '69 body well into '70 with Chevy calling it a '70 and then followed later by the "real" Chevrolet rollout of the new '70 Camaro in February.


Notabily both Colvin and Hooper agree on M-40 as an option on L-78 as follows:

Hooper in his book "The Illustrated Camaro Recogintion Guide 1970-1973" first on page 63 listing "CJL"- and later on page 129 - "Manual or automatic Transmission was available in any SS Camaro".

Also Colvin in his book "1970-75 Chevrolet by the numbers" (on page 58) actually lists two seperate three letter codes for L-78 Camaro and TH in 1970. CJL and CTY. Colvin however does not discuss the carryover engine issue which could mean that when the CJL carryover engines were all used then CTY could have been the later (post) February '70 Camaro L-78/M-40 engine.

Time will tell http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

Phil

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's a quote from an earlier post and it is not mine, "I do love when people quote selections from books written by experts that later prove to be incorrect."

Just because there is a list of proposed changeovers into the following year doesn't mean it happened. For example, using the list above has anyone ever seen a 1970 L89 Camaro? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Rick H.

[70 copo]

Rick,

Please read what the Memo says again. obviously there was no L-89 option on the new Second generation body style that we know of.

The memo simply provides additional insight into the inner workings of Chevrolet at that time, which I clearly state is 1969-and further provides some basis for what later authors have written about the optional power team combo's in what shaped up to be a pretty confusing year.

That is all I was pointing out with the memo post that you have quoted above. OK??

Phil

[CamarosRus]

I have only ever seen CKO used on 1960 Tonawanda L-78's.
Whose car has ANYBODY seen WHAT other code/designation stamped on an assy line installed 1970 L.A. or Norwood Camaro L-78 ???

[Rick H]

I did read it and I know exactly what it says. The memo clearly states at the time it was written that Chevy planned to carry over the 396-400 BB engine/tranny combinations into the 1970 model year when the new Camaro came out in January of 1970. Obviously not all of the combinations made it. Case in point the L89 combo.

Matter of fact as Chuck pointed out the L78/manual was designated CKO. Since the memo you have obviously exists, there must be a final or superseded memo or other documentation that clearly shows what engine/tranny combo's were finally delivered.

Rick H.

[70 copo]

[ QUOTE ]
I did read it and I know exactly what it says. The memo clearly states at the time it was written that Chevy planned to carry over the 396-400 BB engine/tranny combinations into the 1970 model year when the new Camaro came out in January of 1970. Obviously not all of the combinations made it. Case in point the L89 combo.

Matter of fact as Chuck pointed out the L78/manual was designated CKO. Since the memo you have obviously exists, there must be a final or superseded memo or other documentation that clearly shows what engine/tranny combo's were finally delivered.

Rick H.

[/ QUOTE ]


Rick,

You missed one detail from the memo. It states "effective August 1st 1969..." clearly this memo is referring to carryover engines into the new '70 model year - the intent was carryover of engines to the "1970 Camaro" that continued on as the 1969 body style.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y226/70COPO/Cnv1360.jpg



The memo is what it is, and again simply provides insight into why some authors may have concluded the potential of RPO L-78 with a M-40 as reality within the entire '70 model year production run.

BTW..Colvin also lists CKO as a Manual trans w/375HP.


Phil http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[Rick H]

[ QUOTE ]
You missed one detail from the memo

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the intent was carryover of engines to the "1970 Camaro" that continued on as the 1969 body style

[/ QUOTE ]

Show me one line in the above mentioned memo that states and proves that their "intent" was that the 1970 would be "continued on as a 1969 body style"!

Rick H.

[70 copo]

Simple! From the memo:

"effective August 1st 1969, at the manufacturing plant all engines built per this deviation will be identified with a "C" preceeding the engine suffix..."

The start of the '70 model year is when the three letter stamping for engine identification was used.

These engines were carryover to the '70 model year production and were identifed as such.

Second generation production started up at the plants in January '70

Phil

[Jeff H]

I think that memo is really just trying to explain why some of the late run 69 models had the 3 digit engine code beginning with 'C'. Those all look to be 69 model year engines codes and the new 1970 model got a different batch of codes. It's a great memo explaining what happened but doesn't really do anything to help prove/disprove the L78/TH400 option combination. Did they make any 1970 Novas with the L78/TH400 that are known to exist? If there are 1970 Chevelle L78/TH400 cars I would think it was available on the Camaro and Nova as well. They all shared the same engine codes.

[Rick H]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a great memo explaining what happened but doesn't really do anything to help prove/disprove the L78/TH400 option combination.

[/ QUOTE ]

BINGO!

Rick H.

[70 copo]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif