Perfect car for a FRAUD investigation.

[firstgenaddict]

Here is an ebay car that I glanced at then realized something was fishy... Camaro emblems on an RS... hmmm then the air cleaner which was touted as original but is clearly from an SS 350. The cowl tag looks real but appears to have been off at somepoint so who knows if it was really on the car. They say the interior was changed at some point from Green to black... that is a BIG job... I believe that the car had black interior all along. Then the BIGGIE... Dual Fuel lines!
I will also bet that they got the Z28 price wrong... being a May car... it should have been after the 1st increase and may have been after the 2nd increase.
Seeing as this car only has had one owner and the dealer... it should not take too long to determine who did the PREST-O CHANGE-O. That would be http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Z28-Rally...1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Z28-Rally-Sport-1-Owner-Origial-Docs-Unrestored_W0QQitemZ300015415961QQihZ020QQcategory Z6161QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

[mr396]

No mention of the rs option on the invoice. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[jerry j]

There are no X77 original rs Camaros, X77 is a
base Z/28

[firstgenaddict]

I emailed the seller and asked if he would buy the car back if it turned out not to be a real Z... He said no way all sales are final!

[olredalert]

-----I did notice that one of the stereo speakers is still green!!! And if I read the dealer write-up correctly it appears to have been ordered with deluxe interior.......Bill S

[Xplantdad]

Did the chrome trim piece fall off of the right tail light or am I seeing things? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[musclecarjohn]

[ QUOTE ]
Did the chrome trim piece fall off of the right tail light or am I seeing things? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct Bruce...wrong air cleaner & master cylinder...and that trim tag certainly looks like it's been off the car.

Love the D/A marks on the rear window...that car is rough. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

[Norm reynolds]

What happen to the stereo tape system that is on the invoice
And what’s up with the dash pad it shore looks beat also love the
Phony address on the bill of sale> As it has been said there are more Z-28s
Today that GM had built
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

[3macs1]

Basement must have been full of moisture it was stored in. Unrestored or not there is a lot of rust showing for a georgia car.

[Hotrodpaul]

Build date (05A) falls in line with the VIN sequence 639940 but the car looks rough. My 69 L-78 was stored in a Georgia basement for roughly 15-20 years and has no rust.

Paul

[Lynn]

Any of you guys with lots of documentation experience want to let us know if those are fake docs?

Since when does an address get listed as "East Side" with no street number, just a city? Maybe George Jefferson bought it when he moved on up.

[Charley Lillard]

Looks like a real tag to me. Just a old Z28. I remember back when adding options and changing interiors was done all the time. I'm guessing her husband probably added the RS like lots of us did. Also added style trim to make it look better like lots of us did. If you were going to jump on todays fake a car bandwagon you would have a much fresher looking car.

[camarojoe]

But would a Z28 have dual fuel lines? You can see 2 running together in one of the underside pics of the car. The interior change comments make sense though, as it has the woodgrain on the lower dash found only on deluxe interiors, and the tag indicates dark green comfortweave, as well as a reference to it on the invoice. I agree its obvious that all the things changed on the car have been done for quite some time...I noticed the black standard guts in it now are all original GM door panels and seat covers, not reproduction. Definitely a car i'd want to inspect in person regardless of what it is.

[Xplantdad]

Okay...I'd like to learn something here. If it was a real RS Z/28...wouldn't it have "rally sport" where the Camaro emblem is on the fender? Like this? Or...Am I wrong?

http://www.motorcities.com/media/image/640/03DNG144787522A/1969-Chevrolet-Camaro-RS-Z-28-tuxedo-black-white-stripes-A-640.jpeg

[camarojoe]

Yes Bruce, I'm fairly certain this car had the RS stuff added at some point, especially if the trim tag is original to the car... but I think there have been exceptions where RS Z's got Camaro scripts on the fenders instead of Rally Sport. I know this was the case on RS COPO's, as Steve's original COPO car is an RS yet sports Camaro emblems on the fenders, while otherRS/COPO's have the Rally Sport emblems.

Could this have been an SS350 4 speed car that was "converted" to a Z/28 years ago, using a Z tag and parts from a similar car? The disc brakes and 12 bolt look like they've been there for years...stuff an SS350 would also have. Actually, everything about the car looks like its been that way for years. I also don't see on the paperwork where it says it was a Z/28 for certain. Just a price for an option. I hate to get into this ebay car bashing crap, but this is definitly a puzzling car to me.

[Charley Lillard]

[ QUOTE ]
But would a Z28 have dual fuel lines? You can see 2 running together in one of the underside pics of the car. The interior change comments make sense though, as it has the woodgrain on the lower dash found only on deluxe interiors, and the tag indicates dark green comfortweave, as well as a reference to it on the invoice. I agree its obvious that all the things changed on the car have been done for quite some time...I noticed the black standard guts in it now are all original GM door panels and seat covers, not reproduction. Definitely a car i'd want to inspect in person regardless of what it is.

[/ QUOTE ]


OOps..I forgot about the fuel line part..Houston we have a problem... I would like to see the hidden vins...

[Hotrodpaul]

Could this be a rebody where the VIN tag, Trim Tag, emblems, 12 bolt, etc were swapped to a donor 350 Camaro? I would check the hidden VIN's.

Paul

[Xplantdad]

Thanks Joe. I learn something new every day here. Hmmm...I *thought* that I knew quite a bit about american muscle... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

That's okay...this is the best place to learn http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[firstgenaddict]

Joe,
I though the same thing... it was all suspect until the dual fuel lines... that was the breaker that put it over the top.
I also think that it was a SS350 car that someone dropped a bunch of Z stuff on.

[JIM]

No one noticed the rear leaf springs!!! count em !!!! Jim

[Charley Lillard]

I noticed them but I have also seen 5 leafs on Z's before...

[rsatz28]

Camaro Research Group has a "white paper" indicating that 4 & 5 leaf springs can be found on 69Z's.

Maybe a good clue to the true nature of the car is the 2-pc front kick panels. This May car I don't think should have them.

If you take a look at the pictures, did some one fix the reverse lock out linkage? There is a front, under bumper shot,looking up at the LH side of the car, and this shiny bracket is installed.

[Mr BB Chevy]

[ QUOTE ]
If you take a look at the pictures, did some one fix the reverse lock out linkage? There is a front, under bumper shot,looking up at the LH side of the car, and this shiny bracket is installed.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://imagehost.vendio.com/bin/imageserver.x/00000000/southernhotrods/69z28heaths058.jpg

[Rick H]

Hmmmm, don't you love the Z/28 cowl induction air cleaner with the ultra rare heat riser??

Rick H.

[camarojoe]

[ QUOTE ]

Maybe a good clue to the true nature of the car is the 2-pc front kick panels. This May car I don't think should have them.


[/ QUOTE ]

You are right, i didn't even notice that... May is WAY too late for those, I believe January was the latest cars to use them. The interior is definitely cobbled together with parts from 2 cars though.

I thought about this car all night last night, and what it might be... The best theory I came up with, (and it admittedly could very be 100% wrong) but my guess is that the original owners DID buy a fathom green non-RS Z/28 with green deluxe interior in may of 69, and the protecto-plate and assorted documents are real... sometime later on something happened to the car, and an early production SS350, likely with the RS option was used as a "donor car". I'm guessing the donor car was originally yellow, as there are small traces of yellow showing is various photos, and the description notes that it was indeed yellow at one time. The black standard interior with the 2 piece kick panels are likely original to the SS car, and the dash trim and various options were taken from the Z and put on the SS body, as well as the engine and trans. Then the car was rebadged and repainted the same green as the Z was when they bought it. Like I said, this is TOTALLY just a theory, and a very close in-person inspection of the car would be needed to determine exactly what is original and what is not, but alot of the things on this car that are present look to have been there forever, such as the dual fuel lines and original black interior with black console, headliner, carpet, etc...

[Lynn]

So, did any one ever figure out if the docs are legit?

[Rick H]

Seeing that the auction states unrestored and the car has an X77 trim tag and the RS option was only on an X33 Z/28, I would question anything related to this car. Just look at all of the incorrect items for this "unrestored" car.

This car may have been purchased by the person on the sales invoice but as mentioned I highly doubt it was a Z/28 when they bought it.

People are getting pretty good at faking documents.

Big thumbs down. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

Rick H.

[Unreal]

Wow, May 22, 1969 was a great day fot Teressa Judge and me. She got a new Z/28 and I turned 21!!

[Pacecarjeff]

In my opinion, the Protecto plate looks BRAND NEW.
Not even a smudge on the GM tape after almost 40 years?

I guess it must have been upstairs, not with the car in the basement. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[amuseme]

Drivers seat has straight headrest and pass. has bent, easy fix, but... My Z had the int. color change deal (dk grn to blk), it's an 11D, it would have the 2pc. kicks. The blk int. in it is dated Feb. 21-23,'69. The kicks are blk and 2pc, could the kicks in a drk grn int. have been blk?

[Late BrakeU2]

A guy has been selling those on ebay for years.They are original blanks complete with the embossed "addressograph" italic and period correct GM dymo tape.That one is more than likely one of those-way too perfect and probably had it made when the donor 350 car recieved the"unrestored" RSZ/28 ZL2 upgrade.Probably got the trim tag on Ebay as well.It's nice playing detective,but the sheet is gettin old.I bleed red bowtie,but it's at the point where I'm trading into Pontiacs.

[Hotrodpaul]

I believe this car started out as an X11 SS 350car as you can see the bright trim accents around the accelerator and brake pedal, drip rail molding and wheelwell moldings. To me, the X77 trim tag looks real, which I think was swapped from a donor Z28 along with Vin tag and some drivetrain parts and interior items. I would love to see the hidden VIN's and talk to Theresa Judge (If she exists).

Paul

[HS PROFESSOR]

I've been in the collision industry for almost 25 years and a statement a old guy told me years ago will forever ring in my head. I was stripping my numbers matching '69 R/T charger and realized the front end didnt match the back end.It turned out someone had clipped the car due to a bad collision in the early 70's.Nice job but a clip none the less .This old guy real calmly told me IF YOU WANT TO PLAY WITH THIS OLD SH1T BE PREPARED FOR ANYTHING....BECAUSE THEY ALL HAVE A STORY TO TELL. He's long gone, but i'll never forget that.How true it is.


bob

[Andy]

In the 4 pages of this thread I didn't see where anyone mentioned the pad on the front of the motor. The auction doesn't have pictures of it. If the car is somewhat legit,http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif it would at least have to have the original motor in it. It should be easy to spot a fake stamping there.

[Pacecarjeff]

There is not going to be a real DZ engine to see.
Because this did not start life as a Z.
With all the close ups, obvious it was purposely omitted.

We are looking at a Trim tag and VIN, added to an original RS/SS-350
Still a nice car - it is really a shame.
Hope they save the original tags.

Someone just thought "if we change these 2 little tags, we can make an extra $25K" http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

[RamAirDave]

[ QUOTE ]
Hope they save the original tags.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably already sold on eBay http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Someone just thought "if we change these 2 little tags, we can make an extra $25K" http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, theres a good chance that they will http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

[camarojoe]

Whatever it is or was, I think it should have met reserve and then some at $42,100.