Reconstructed Vehicle VIN swap

[70-SS/RS-L78]

Hear you go; GNX#298 was destroyed beyond repair and issued a Salvage Title. The car was acquired by a shop. They then proceeded
to swap all of the GNX specific parts to a regular GN. Now hear is the problem…. They also put the VIN from GNX #298 on the GN.
The car is now on eBay being sold as GNX #298 with a reconstruction title. When questioned about the VIN swap the owner has “No Comment”

eBay Auction for #298
Auction# 170019126493

Link to wreck
http://turbobuicks.net/gallery2/v/Philly/album05/

car being reconstructed
http://amsleysvw.com/GNX.php

[L78steve]

Check out item no.290020815293 on Ebay

[Rick H]

The wreck (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290020815293)

The finished car (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170019126493)

Hmmmmm.

Rick H.

[njsteve]

Once the VIN from another car was put on the body, the car is ABSOLUTELEY ILLEGAL. I imagine it's already got a redflag on it now and whoever buys it and then tries to register it will lose the car and all his money.

[flyingn]

yea this auction was put up to alert potental bidders..



uote]Check out item no.290020815293 on Ebay

[/ QUOTE ]

[flyingn]

the authorities are gonna be alerted from what I understand very soon

[70-SS/RS-L78]

This guy is about to have a "Real Bad Day". http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif
I wonder if the Shop that did the work is also liable?

[njsteve]

Liable is a term used for civil cases (lawsuits=money damages) Swapping VINs is a felony (arrest=prison time).

[firstgenaddict]

They were so nice to provide the authorities with documented photo journal of the rebuild...
If you do something illegal why in the hell would you take pictures of it?
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[king_midas]

Yes, the last comment is the best-- Why document? All kidding aside, with the criminals that are currently running around this country, nobody's going to go to jail, unless the car is chopped...

Now, onto a better question: What is the difference between this and some of the trash that has been sold on e-bay that basically needs EVERY panel replaced? A recent thread on the board that I commented on:

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/204228/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1

Or, isn't GM perpetrating a fraud by making new, licensed, pre-assembled Ca-mullet bodies available for purchase? You KNOW people are going to swap vins onto those; is it just understood, and (pat, pat) it's 'okay' because you're helping the good 'ol U.S. economy by purchasing a body somebody had to weld together? Something is rotten in Denmark, Batman...

Really, the cases are similar, and known re-bodying is what has always happened in the hobby when something can't be saved/costs too much to save. So, the question is this: If the GN that the VIN was swapped onto was legal (i.e.: Not chopped/stolen, etc...), is moving the VIN still illegal, and if so, why? The seller was up-front, and told of the accident history... Next thing: How would actually repairing that GNX (I'm putting on a helmet and getting my cup in) be any different than cutting EVERY panel off of a Ca-mullet in attempting to repair 35 years of abuse? Doesn't that make the car a re-body as well?

I'm playing the devil's advocate here, but it holds some truth.

[king_midas]

(edit) ... not that the argument that has been posted makes moving a vin right!

[flyingn]

actually he DID NOT tell of the accident history. All he did was that it was hit and reconstructed. Never did he state (even after many people emailed him and asked if it was true) that the car was revinned to another car completely. The point is that each and every of the 547 GNX's were numbered and # 298 is gone. He did not just repair #298 like he states.. The person is bidding on a GN with the vin from #298 plastered on.. He *NEEDS* to state this in his auction. BTW- thats illegal in pa.. Highly illegal.

[COPO427]

These crooks need to do time. It's illegal to move a VIN tag to another car.

[amuseme]

I can only say what I've said before, the law not withstanding, the only 'part' of #298 that makes #298 a real GNX is that little piece of metal with the VIN on it. Everything else is just sugar on the donut!

[Pacecarjeff]

Where did the current car come from?
Maybe it is stolen.
That is why it is illegal to switch VINs.
Because it is just too easy to do this.
Crash your car? just steal another like it, and switch the tags. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

[Gregs396]

[ QUOTE ]
Where did the current car come from?
Maybe it is stolen.
That is why it is illegal to switch VINs.
Because it is just too easy to do this.
Crash your car? just steal another like it, and switch the tags. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
That is a very good point, but what IF the seller has a clear title for the "Doner" car that proves that nothing was stolen?

[Pacecarjeff]

[ QUOTE ]
That is a very good point, but what IF the seller has a clear title for the "Doner" car that proves that nothing was stolen?

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point yourself. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
I guess theoretically you would have to purchase both cars.
And would then get both titles.
Doesn't sound like this is happening in this case.
Sounds like the seller is claiming that this is only 1 car that has been rebuilt.???

I think a Lawyer, or a Judge would have to comment on that.
Still sounds illegal to me.

[firstgenaddict]

I found out a few days ago that in SC you are "allowed" to move a VIN from one car to another if you legally own them both.
Ethically should you... NO, but ethics and the law rarely coincide. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Pacecarjeff]

[ QUOTE ]
I found out a few days ago that in SC you are "allowed" to move a VIN from one car to another if you legally own them both.
Ethically should you... NO, but ethics and the law rarely coincide. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]I can't believe that would be legal.
If it is allowed anywhere, the hidden VIN stampings won't match the title.
A few owners later, and this would never be able to be sorted out. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Gregs396]

I'm sure that there may be several cars running around out there that have had that done. I knew of a guy when I was in H.S. that wrecked his Monte Carlo. He got a doner car, and cut them both in 1/2, and made 1 good car out of the two. He did use the front 1/2 of his original car, so the VIN would not have been an issue. There are also many cars out there that have had every part on them replaced with the exception of the cowl area, so to me that is pretty much the same thing only you replaced the car around the VIN tag. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[70-SS/RS-L78]

[ QUOTE ]
I found out a few days ago that in SC you are "allowed" to move a VIN from one car to another if you legally own them both. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You have got to be kidding me, I sure hope they make you disclose it on the title http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[bertfam]

I'm not a lawyer (but I play one on TV), so Lynn, correct me if I'm wrong here, but I believe there are two laws in play here. The first, from South Carolina that states it's okay to change VIN's if you leagally own both cars, and the second, from a Federal standpoint that states you CAN'T change VIN's no matter what. In this case the Federal ruling would take precedance over the State law and make it illegal to change VIN's.

It's like the Pot laws. Some states have made it legal to posess MJ, but since it's still a Federal offense, it's against the law and you can still be arrested.

Comments?

Ed

[agtw31]

i just don't understand why anybody would be interested in this car at all.

[ANDY M]

Bidding has ended, winning bid $25,200.

[427TJ]

"IT WAS PAMPERED FOR YEARS BEFORE WE BOUGHT IT."

Pampered, totaled, then pampered some more.

[firstgenaddict]

Is there a Federal Law that has to do with VIN's?
It seems to me that it would not be a power granted to the Federal Govt by the Constitution, but then again most laws enacted by Congress have no Constitutional Basis... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[jfkheat]

I may be out of line here but I just sent the high bidder an email with a link to this discussion.
James

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
I found out a few days ago that in SC you are "allowed" to move a VIN from one car to another if you legally own them both.
Ethically should you... NO, but ethics and the law rarely coincide. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

That is absolutely false. Under Federal law it is illegal. Period. No discussion. And in the absolutely unlikey event that a law in SC says its OK, under the Supremacy clause of the U.S. Constitution, Federal Law supercedes state law if there is a conflict. Unless you can provide a specific staute stating your claim, it's just an urban myth. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[firstgenaddict]

Here is the Federal Statute.

"Section 511. Altering or removing motor vehicle identification numbers

(a) A person who -
(1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an identification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part;
or
(2) with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle,
knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal
or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor
Vehicle Theft Prevention Act,

shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years,
or both.
(b)(1) Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a
removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person
specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person
knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).
(2) The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection
are -
(A) a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle
demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to
such vehicle or part;
(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal,
obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary
for the repair;
(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number
for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law;
and
(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters
a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the
Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner
of the motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate,
tamper with or alter the decal or device by -
(i) the owner or his authorized agent;
(ii) applicable State or local law; or
(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to
implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.

(c) As used in this section, the term -
(1) "identification number" means a number or symbol that is
inscribed or affixed for purposes of identification under chapter
301 and part C of subtitle VI of title 49;
(2) "motor vehicle" has the meaning given that term in section
32101 of title 49;
(3) "motor vehicle demolisher" means a person, including any
motor vehicle dismantler or motor vehicle recycler, who is
engaged in the business of reducing motor vehicles or motor
vehicle parts to metallic scrap that is unsuitable for use as
either a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle part;
(4) "motor vehicle scrap processor" means a person -
(A) who is engaged in the business of purchasing motor
vehicles or motor vehicle parts for reduction to metallic scrap
for recycling;
(B) who, from a fixed location, uses machinery to process
metallic scrap into prepared grades; and
(C) whose principal product is metallic scrap for recycling;

but such term does not include any activity of any such person
relating to the recycling of a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle
part as a used motor vehicle or a used motor vehicle part.

(d) For purposes of subsection (a) of this section, the term
"tampers with" includes covering a program decal or device affixed
to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention
Act for the purpose of obstructing its visibility."

<u>If I am reading this section of the statute correctly (the description of the crime and Penalty) </u>
(a) A person who -
(1) knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an
identification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part;
or
(2) with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle,
knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal
or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor
Vehicle Theft Prevention Act,

shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years,
or both.

<u>Does not apply if the following conditon(s)are met.</u>

(B) a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;
(C) a person who restores or replaces an identification number for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law;
(D) a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device by -
(i) the owner or his authorized agent;-
(ii) applicable State or local law; or-
(iii) regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.

[Pacecarjeff]

Sounds like you can do all that, ONLY if you are repairing the car.
Then putting the same tags back after the restoration is completed.

What does it say about switching the VIN to another vehicle intending to deceive for profit?


Like i said before:
Sounds illegal to me. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

[HS PROFESSOR]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure that there may be several cars running around out there that have had that done. I knew of a guy when I was in H.S. that wrecked his Monte Carlo. He got a doner car, and cut them both in 1/2, and made 1 good car out of the two. He did use the front 1/2 of his original car, so the VIN would not have been an issue. There are also many cars out there that have had every part on them replaced with the exception of the cowl area, so to me that is pretty much the same thing only you replaced the car around the VIN tag. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I've clipped many cars in my days in a collision shop and many time the insurance company paid for it.Is it right ??? who nows. If it was a Honda Accord no one would care.But its not. The owner of the car can probably pull it off as a repair. But he then has to take the car and have it inspected so it can be registered with a salvage title. It happens all the time guys.Dont get your panties in a wad. Welcome to the used car/collision industry. 25k is way low for a PAMPERED GNX anyway.The buyer KNEW he was getting a totaled car. Its the next buyer that wont be so lucky.I'm sure those Buick Guys have #298 forever engrained in their heads.I dont think there was much usable on the original #298 anyways.That car was toast. Probably a fatality too.Its haunted.


bob

[firstgenaddict]

"Like i said before:
Sounds illegal to me."

I am not saying that it SHOULD be legal I am just saying that it is NOT Illegal.

I was under the same assumption that it was ILLEGAL no matter where it took place or who was doing it or why it was being done.
Until I did a little research, then I found the Federal Statute. Of course states have every right to make their own laws much more strict.

[njsteve]

Final answer: you cannot take the VIN off of one car and put it on another. No statute allows that, including what is in bold in the above reply. That only refers to repairing the existing car and replacing it on that same car.

[PeteLeathersac]

Like the professor, I clipped many cars in the old days and was paid by insurance companys to do so. . Not only was this type of repair method understood as totally legal, but when done properly the result was a clean and much superior repair than fixing smashed areas....especially when rear clips. .

It wasn't uncommon when badge engineered cars became a half breed....like Novas w/ Acadian, Omega, Apollo or Ventura noses or rear clips. .

Section cuts, partial cowl cuts etc. were not as clean to do as a rear clip but never did we jump a Vin as it was always understood as totally illegal. .

To me this GNX # 298 job is an obvious felony and as much as the seller notes it has a collision history, his auction is completely misleading to an uneducated buyer. .

In cases where you can remove and reattach a Vin w/ the proper athorities present, I highly doubt jumping Vins from one car to another would be legit....anywhere! .

And good move James passing the thread onto the buyer....it may not make anyone happy but maybe it's not too late for him to understand what he's getting himself into? .
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif
~ Pete

[HS PROFESSOR]

[ QUOTE ]
To me this GNX # 298 job is an obvious felony and as much as the seller notes it has a collision history, his auction is completely misleading to an uneducated buyer. .

In cases where you can remove and reattach a Vin w/ the proper athorities present, I highly doubt jumping Vins from one car to another would be legit....anywhere!


[/ QUOTE ]


I completely agree. Its obvious he switched tags,as that car was a TOTAL LOSS in anyones book.Nothing to clip !!!! But my guess is they will try to say they fixed it. I bet this car will have a long storied future.http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

bob

[DaveC68]

I almost fear chiming in here... but here goes http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif if I understand correctly. Its not OK to own both the wrecked GNX and a complete car, switch the VIN and reconstruct the GNX.
But it would be OK to clip the GNX at the windshield posts and across the floor...say just below the gas pedal and graft it onto the complete car to reconstruct the GNX.
(And by the looks of the pictures the windshield posts have already conveniently been clipped) http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I think the real question is...How much( or how little)a piece of sheet metal that contains the VIN tag (rivits intact) can be removed and replaced to another car without it being considered removing the vin http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

And does it make a difference if I own the wrecked GNX and want to repair it? (OK?)
Or if I own a GN and buy the wrecked GNX to clone or pass my GN for a GNX? (not OK?)
Isn't it the same "thing" in the end, just different circumstances to arriving there?

[jfkheat]

[ QUOTE ]

I think the real question is...How much( or how little)a piece of sheet metal that contains the VIN tag (rivits intact) can be removed and replaced to another car without it being considered removing the vin http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

You would need to leave at least 1 to 1 1/2 inches so you could weld it in and not hurt the VIN tag. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
James

[nuch_ss396]

[ QUOTE ]
I almost fear chiming in here... but here goes http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif if I understand correctly. Its not OK to own both the wrecked GNX and a complete car, switch the VIN and reconstruct the GNX.
But it would be OK to clip the GNX at the windshield posts and across the floor...say just below the gas pedal and graft it onto the complete car to reconstruct the GNX.
(And by the looks of the pictures the windshield posts have already conveniently been clipped) http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I think the real question is...How much( or how little)a piece of sheet metal that contains the VIN tag (rivits intact) can be removed and replaced to another car without it being considered removing the vin http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

And does it make a difference if I own the wrecked GNX and want to repair it? (OK?)
Or if I own a GN and buy the wrecked GNX to clone or pass my GN for a GNX? (not OK?)
Isn't it the same "thing" in the end, just different circumstances to arriving there?

[/ QUOTE ]

This question harks back to a discussion here before about
the Dynacorn bodies and use of original VIN &amp; cowl tags.

This is going to become a slippery slope when someone
prominent ( like, let's say Jay Leno ) gets burned and
wants restitution. How much of the original car is necessary in a reconstruction to keep it the original car?
Just the cowl area? Under that premise, a Dynacorn body
could then be considered a real Camaro ( by the unknowing ).

See where this is going? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

[southernfriedcj]

Wouldn't the VIN swap law apply to the purple Hemi Cuda that was sold at the BJ auction this year? They said the car was burned up in a fire and "rebodied". I was surprised when they announced it, as I thought "rebodying" was illegal.

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't the VIN swap law apply to the purple Hemi Cuda that was sold at the BJ auction this year? They said the car was burned up in a fire and "rebodied". I was surprised when they announced it, as I thought "rebodying" was illegal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it would. I was flaberghasted when I heard the announcer call it a rebody on the air. Nothing like admitting to a felony in front of a couple million people.

[nuch_ss396]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't the VIN swap law apply to the purple Hemi Cuda that was sold at the BJ auction this year? They said the car was burned up in a fire and "rebodied". I was surprised when they announced it, as I thought "rebodying" was illegal.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it would. I was flaberghasted when I heard the announcer call it a rebody on the air. Nothing like admitting to a felony in front of a couple million people.

[/ QUOTE ]

Steve,

I think your point gets to the heart of the matter. If B-J
can do it for high dollar car(s) ( and get away with it ),
others will follow suit as it appears to be an accepted way
of restoring a high values performance car. I'll say it
again, all those dis-embodied VIN's &amp; cowl tags out there
are going to start showing up as rebodied cars for major bucks. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

And, if B-J can rationalize the auction of these types of
cars, then they have another potential whole crop of muscle
cars to start pushing on the public.

[firstgenaddict]

I guess the magic questions is how much of the car do you have to use before it is considered a vin swap...
I guess LESS than this Cowl Graft! (http://www.1957chevybody.com/body.html)

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
Steve,

I think your point gets to the heart of the matter. If B-J
can do it for high dollar car(s) ( and get away with it ),
others will follow suit as it appears to be an accepted way
of restoring a high values performance car. I'll say it
again, all those dis-embodied VIN's &amp; cowl tags out there
are going to start showing up as rebodied cars for major bucks. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

And, if B-J can rationalize the auction of these types of
cars, then they have another potential whole crop of muscle
cars to start pushing on the public.

[/ QUOTE ]

BJ has nothing to do with VIN swapping. The announcers have no clue whatsoever. I was just amazed that the current owner actually put that info out there. It doesn't matter how altuistic the reason, i.e saving a one of one built car, if you take the VIN off the old body and rivet it on the new one, it is a crime and you risk losing the car.

Maybe that's why the new Dynacorn 57 Chevy bodies are now built around existing cowls that retain the original VIN numbers. That would be a legal method of "transferring" a VIN. http://www.1957chevybody.com/body.html I wonder when they are going to start permitting current owners of rusty cars to bring their bodies to the Dynacorn shop for transplantation? It sounds all too science fictiony to me -almost like a Twilight Zone episode in the making. Or maybe the cartoon movie "Robots" where a robot can upgrade to the newest body once his is broken down beyond repair. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[firstgenaddict]

Would it be a VIN swap if you took a cowl from say a ZL1 and then took a regular 6 cyl 69 Camaro... cut the cowl out and intalled the ZL1 cowl?

[jfkheat]

All this has been discussed on here several times. James, I would be willing to bet that what you asked about has been done. Maybe not a ZL1 but with other supercars. You will never hear about these cars because they are not talked about around these parts. Just my opinion.
James

[nuch_ss396]

You're right James !

Anyone with a real ZL-1 probably wouldn't tell the world of
their cowl transplant for fear of castigation. Well, that's
my opinion anyway.