View Full Version : Idiot Boy needs input from intelligent car guys!
Alright, this is convoluted so I will leave out some details to keep it short. Some of you may remember that I have GMMG #51 and had Lamar Walden (original owner of the 69 ZL1) but a hot C5R 427, 609 RWHP, solid roller, Moser 4:10, etc. I have a small fortune in this car and am at this point tired of messing with it.
The guys who built many of these cars Ron Mowen and Mike Callahan have opened a shop within 4 miles of my house. These guys know these LS series engines and late model cars inside and out and I trust them. Keep in mind I have a Dick Harrell, 475hp, A4 on the way. I will not get carried away and take the fun out of this car. I learn slowly but surely.
The 3 of us have decided to put the LS6 that came out of #51 back in it rather than in the DH car. Pull all the drive train out of #51 and make it like it was delivered, a phase one ZL1. We have a buyer at $75K.
We will just use the LS6 that comes as a crate engine for the DH as GMMG originally intended, plus a few mild mods like cam, headers, stall converter and that's about it. I will then have more than $50k worth of new (650 miles) running gear and engine (rare 090 race heads) to sell or put on my 02 Z06, which would eliminate the embarrassingly infuriating humiliation of trying to deal with Chev. dealers on a new Z06.
I am not capable of making this decision. Does this make sense to anyone? Anyone have a better idea? Remember part of the motivation for this is the fact that I have far too much money in the #51 ZL1 GMMG car to make selling it as-is viable. Years from now I think it's value will be up there but that does not matter to me right now.
tom406
09-21-2006, 11:44 PM
Un-modifying #51 and keeping the high- $$$$ modified drivetrain makes perfect sense to me. The rest seems OK too.
TOM
Kim_Howie
09-21-2006, 11:58 PM
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif
Late BrakeU2
09-22-2006, 12:31 AM
If it were mine I would return the # 51 car back to GMMG deilvered config and keep it,sell the 02Z06 and that drive line and wait till the Blue devil thingy is announced and pick up a low mile 06Z in the high 50k range when they drop.Mike is the man and I wish he and Ron the best with Vengance Motorsports.
BTW is that the only A4 DH?
Automatic trans. Dick Harrell....and they call me stoopid! J/K of course.....or was I?? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif
Kim_Howie
09-22-2006, 12:51 AM
Hey Ray, Some days your the pigeon and some days your the statue. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
Today I am what the pigeon drops. Oh well, there is always tomorrow. I can't wait.
ANDY M
09-22-2006, 03:56 AM
Kim, it's more like "Some days you're the butterfly, and some days you're the windshield". http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
Is this ironic or just what? Where are all the intelligent guys that can give me some good solid advice here? I need help. I'm begging!! Just kidding again....you guys are all Bill Gates equals in my book! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif
So, is the consensus here that having the original owner of #51 build this #51 as a 69 retro type 427 but with all modern goodies was an idiotic idea that will cost me a cool $50k when all is said and done.
$50 freaking K you say. Remember I went from NA to SC back to NA and have paid dearly for my indecisiveness. Dearly!
Did I mention that the C5R will fit nicely in the 02 Z06? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
Kim_Howie
09-22-2006, 05:51 AM
Take your BALLS out of your purse AND DO WANT WANT!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif It's your call cool, huh!!
I need advise from intelligent, mature grown-ups. Otherwise I will do something stupid again!
I would take the S/C stuff out of the #51 car, rework the internals on that C5R engine, make it a fire breathing 427-454 something, do 550-600RWHP, and keep the #51 car. Since the money already is spent,
You would then have an extremely fun 6 speed car, and definetively still a very fast one too,
NEW
Denis
09-22-2006, 10:20 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I need advise from intelligent, mature grown-ups.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're clearly in the wrong place.
Move along, nothing to see here.
http://web.tiscali.it/senzasoldi/immagini/south%20park/cop_medio.gif
New - part of my losses on this car will come from the fact that I have gone from NA to SC now back to NA. So the blower stuff is already out. It is putting 609 to the rear wheels now through a Moser 4:11, so it's got the power. I believe after a few tweaks and tune it will be closer to 650+ RWHP.
Chances are though, we will sell the drive train, Center Force dual disk clutch, racing drive shaft and all as a unit or if necessary piece meal it.
I am leaning toward keeping the C5R engine because I know it's built right and it has very rare 090 C5R heads.
[ QUOTE ]
New - part of my losses on this car will come from the fact that I have gone from NA to SC now back to NA. So the blower stuff is already out. It is putting 609 to the rear wheels now through a Moser 4:11, so it's got the power. I believe after a few tweaks and tune it will be closer to 650+ RWHP.
Chances are though, we will sell the drive train, Center Force dual disk clutch, racing drive shaft and all as a unit or if necessary piece meal it.
I am leaning toward keeping the C5R engine because I know it's built right and it has very rare 090 C5R heads.
[/ QUOTE ]
I dont know, i know you have had much work with this car, but damn wouldnt it be cool with that bad a** engine in it, use the DH car as a cruiser, and the #51 as a thing you take out, when you need to relief some pressure.
NEW
396L35
09-22-2006, 07:23 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I dont know, i know you have had much work with this car, but damn wouldnt it be cool with that bad a** engine in it, use the DH car as a cruiser, and the #51 as a thing you take out, when you need to relief some pressure.
NEW
[/ QUOTE ]
Im with New on this one... The DH car is cool but people will see you coming the ZL1 is sorta a sleeper except the loud poor idle and when someone wants to race you throw down some s--t... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif
That's the way I'm leaning. But, selling the GMMG car for $75K with the original running gear in it while keeping all the good expensive stuff is attractive too.
[ QUOTE ]
That's the way I'm leaning. But, selling the GMMG car for $75K with the original running gear in it while keeping all the good expensive stuff is attractive too.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey, dont sell it ,or change it before wešve done a match race... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
NEW
Kim_Howie
09-22-2006, 11:47 PM
This would be the way I would go. Sell the car stock a keep the parts!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
Belair62
09-23-2006, 01:56 AM
[ QUOTE ]
We have a buyer at $75K.
[/ QUOTE ]
I would jump all over that.Put it back to stock and let it rip.
Hold on a second there New. We will race if I put the SC back on....where the heck were you...wait another second, aren't you in Norway? OK, let's meet up half way...NYC.
If I'm comfortable that the 75 is a done deal I'm leaning that way. But after talking to Mike today I kind of want them to put the finishing touches on the car and see if my attitude toward it changes. He thinks a different intake, TB and tune might get us close to 675 RWHP.
BTW - I'm really getting confused!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Mike knows his stuff on the LS1s. You'll like that Dick Harrel car. 475 hp and a hard hitting converter will make you http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif He did a h/c package to my friends 01 WS6 a while back, and the car had a 3.73 gear and a 3800 stall and all I can say is http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif I am going to let his shop put a cam and a stall in my SS when I save up the funds to get it done.
Mike and Ron have given me and my LSx engines reason to live! And they are less than 5 miles from my house. Going to see them right now and talk about the options. BTW - they will have their new dyno installed Mon. and Tues.
Belair62
09-23-2006, 07:02 PM
How did this go from a question about what to do with your car to a cemmercial for some guys ? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif
[ QUOTE ]
How did this go from a question about what to do with your car to a cemmercial for some guys ? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Because car nuts/guys tend to get a bit carried away... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
NEW
Belair my friend, you have no idea how great it is to live 5 min. from a knowledgeable speed shop. Hell, it beats having a well endowed female exhibitionist neighbor. That's my next fantasy!
The great 1,000HP adventure will come to an end. Ron and Mike will have the car back to as-was condition within a week and sold within a week or two. Oh well. It had potential but was not to be.
Might just pull the solid lifter roller and put this engine in the 02 Z06. 650 to the rear wheels should take care of any international match race needs! (You listening New?) http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif
Charley Lillard
09-29-2006, 06:12 PM
You are confusing me. You are saying you are selling the Walden modified ZL1 with the big engine in it ?
YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY
09-29-2006, 06:32 PM
I think the title to this thread is profound http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
[ QUOTE ]
You are confusing me. You are saying you are selling the Walden modified ZL1 with the big engine in it?
[/ QUOTE ]
No, I think he is returning the ZL-1 to stock and selling it. Then considering putting the Walden engine in the '02 Z06.
Hey, it's only money.
COPO got it. Of course all things are subject to change. From what I've seen lately I think you can build a '55 Chev. with virtually all new parts. Body, frame, etc. then just add the LWA 427, Moser, Centerforce, Kooks etc. and have at it!
First, I don't have a purse...it's one of those toney European waist type deals!
Alright, listen to this U-turn. My next door neighbor, who is a high end car broker, shockingly found a buyer for this car at a good price. Shocker! Long story real short....he had the car dynoed, locally, and instead of 620 RWHP the solid roller, C5R 427, 090 heads etc. is putting down 425.
The buyer's tester did not touch the tune. He found 38 degrees of time and a fuel mix ratio and trims that were way out of whack. He thinks the blower cam and measly 9 to one compression are still in the car. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
Big problem for idiot/sucker boy now! What the hell will I find next?? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
Charley Lillard
10-10-2006, 06:08 PM
Are you saying Walden told you it made 620 rwhp but the buyer says it really makes 425 rwhp ?
[ QUOTE ]
First, I don't have a purse...it's one of those toney European waist type deals!
Alright, listen to this U-turn. My next door neighbor, who is a high end car broker, shockingly found a buyer for this car at a good price. Shocker! Long story real short....he had the car dynoed, locally, and instead of 620 RWHP the solid roller, C5R 427, 090 heads etc. is putting down 425.
The buyer's tester did not touch the tune. He found 38 degrees of time and a fuel mix ratio and trims that were way out of whack. He thinks the blower cam and measly 9 to one compression are still in the car. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
Big problem for idiot/sucker boy now! What the hell will I find next?? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Seriously? are you kidding? Or am i misunderstanding,?
NEW
That is the way it appears right now. I have the graph. Of course there may be an explanation and I hope there is. I saw the car make 575RWHP before we decided to go FI. I am going to have the car taken to another shop and see if their conclusions are the same. If so, I hope there is a reasonable explanation.
At this point the buyer, who really wants this car, is losing patience and so am I. Five years and $100k (engine and suspension plus a few order changes) for a car that won't run properly and has lost almost 200HP???? Let's hope there is a simple explanation and solution.
kwhizz
10-10-2006, 08:43 PM
[ QUOTE ]
That is the way it appears right now. I have the graph. Of course there may be an explanation and I hope there is. I saw the car make 575RWHP before we decided to go FI. I am going to have the car taken to another shop and see if their conclusions are the same. If so, I hope there is a reasonable explanation.
At this point the buyer, who really wants this car, is losing patience and so am I. Five years and $100k (engine and suspension plus a few order changes) for a car that won't run properly and has lost almost 200HP???? Let's hope there is a simple explanation and solution.
[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe the Cam is going away.........?????
Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif
Belair62
10-11-2006, 03:33 AM
You also need to make sure the pulls were done in the same gear as the other pulss and hopefully on the same type of dyno...something is way wrong...
Both were DynoJets and performed by competent people. The original cam was a hyd. roller. When we went with the SC we went with a solid roller. The solid roller (blower cam) couldn't have more than 2-300 miles on it.
It is looking like the blower cam is still in the car and the comp. ratio is low. I hope I'm wrong because I can't imagine how that could happen and/or how LWA could come up with a 600+ RWHP graph with that set up.
Also unusual is the fact that the speedometer is 20%+ fast as it was before the SC was removed.
Like I posted earlier (it disappeared into cyberspace) I give my friends EVERY benefit of the doubt but if the wool has been pulled over my eyes the s*** will hit the fan. $100,000.00 worth, or more!
Belair62
10-11-2006, 04:56 AM
Have you talked to Lamar about it ? I would think that is the first person you should have asked
Late BrakeU2
10-11-2006, 04:56 AM
Forgive me if I missed something in the thread,but i'm curious as to why you elected to have an LWA race case put in a GMMG ZL1 car instead of just opting for their phase III in house? Mike will be the first to tell you he has blown up more of those than anybody,lol
Charley Lillard
10-11-2006, 05:10 AM
It is real easy and common to manipulate a dyno to give very friendly reading. Lots of people want a dyno sheet printout for bragging rights..
Verne_Frantz
10-11-2006, 05:23 AM
How do you make a dyno show more horsepower than is really there?
Hey Late Brake, where the hell were you 5 years ago when I could have used this sage advise???? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif Oh well, I wouldn't have listened anyway. The Lamar Walden connection goes like this: Lamar did some engine work on my '55 chev. in the late 60s. He normally didn't do that kind of work but he was next door neighbors with my best friend. Also tuned a 70 LT1 vette when chev. gave up. He was going to build a 427 Hilborn injected, straight front axle '55 for me until a speeding woman hit me head-on and ended that dream. We go back a long way. I still trust Lamar until proven otherwise.
I had bought the ZL1 before I even knew Lamar was still doing engine work. My plans were to send the car to Lingenfelter or Katech. Keep in mind I was the first or second person to commit to a ZL1 according to Matt. In fact Matt offered me #2 the day I test drove the prototype.
A piece of history here. This one I observed. Matt had no intention of putting 427s in the ZL1 until I told him what I was going to do and then, evidently so did several other people. Matt did not want these cars to be known as GMMG/Katech or whatever ZL1s. At that time Matt made the 427 offer to all buyers. When I found out Lamar was still in business and willing to do the project I got Matt to assure me I could get #51 which was the same number ZL1 that GM gave to Lamar. Seemed appropriate to me.
Unless the weather is bad here a very knowledgeable tech. and I are taking the car to LWA Fri. Until then everything else is just speculation. I think there will be a logical explanation.
Charley Lillard
10-11-2006, 07:13 AM
GRB...I have to disagreee with your 427 statement. I had been hounding GMMG to do a 427 in order for me to buy one. The email that finally did it was one that all it said was "427 427 427 427 427" the whole page. They responded by saying if I found 10 guys to do a 427 they would do the program. I think I found about 7 and they found plenty more.
As for tweeking the dyno #'s the dyno operator just inputs correction factors etc and get whatever results he wants. Ask any dyno operator.
Late BrakeU2
10-11-2006, 08:46 AM
GRB,
Can see where you were coming from,that's pretty cool that you were in on the ground floor with these cars.As a side bar to your's and Charlie's posts on the 427 program my Intimidator SS is at GMMG awaiting their milestone 100th C5R motor-I think they are at # 91 currently..
Let me know if you want to part with those 090 heads! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif
Charley you are probably right. What the heck do I know lately??? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif But at any rate I met Matt at Jumper Chev. at about the same time the car was on the top right corner of the cover of Super Chev(?), I think. There was no engine option at that time and I know this because I asked Matt during the test drive.
This was during the time period when MM was just trying to get Heinricy and whoever else to OK this project so I would think MM had his hands full just trying to get the mighty CORVETTE engine in the car. I have some old e-mails on my old laptops where I swapped e-mails with Scott Settlemire regarding the progress of the project. This tidbit is relative to nothing, so back to the story. <----kinda brings back the memory of how excited I was about this car. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
Some time later, months I guess, when the project was OK'd I ran over to GMMG and at that time told MM what I was going to do with my car (427 and the same number as Lamar Walden had in 1970) and at that time MM told me of the overwhelming request he had for the 427. He wasn't sure, that day, who was going to build the engine and I was uncomfortable with that. So, I stayed with my plan and Matt thought having a sort of bookend to #51 original 427 ZL1 built by the original owner of #51 would be unique and possibly add to the value of the car. At least that was my impression of the situation. (I don't read people's minds. I have learned the hard way to leave that to the professionals.....psychics)
I don't believe Lamar tweaked the dyno and I doubt he ever has. Again, I think there is a mistake somewhere and if it is at LWA I think Lamar will make things right.
Late Brake - If we pull the engine we will either sell the whole unit SC, motor, fuel cell, etc. or part it out. Don't know about that yet. Keep in mind that I, like a woman, reserve the right to change my mind AT ANY TIME, and with the SC 'reattached' and a "proper" tune may just get 'reattached' to the car!! That way I can meet New in NYC and drag race him down Wall Street. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif
[ QUOTE ]
That way I can meet New in NYC and drag race him down Wall Street. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey, sounds as a plan.. I'd love to bring my car to the states, team up with mike & crew and go racing somewhere..
NEW
OK, Idiot Boy is coming out of the fog a little. I own the ZL1 because I saw Matt Berger's SS at GMMG in the same color, Fikse wheels and white stripes. I drove that car and fell in puppy love with it's looks. The power was surprising, and it was only a 475HP model, but it was the looks of the car that hooked me.
As I look back through some of the many pictures I took of this car during all phases of the build-up these reasons as to why I wanted it all started coming back. Damn I feel like I'm on Dr. Phil or something! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Now Idiot Boy is thinking; Keep the ZL1 and if the blower cam is still in it and the comp is low, hell, just put the damn SC back on it, tune it right for once, change the crappy Center Force clutch for one of these new "just $1,700" ones and by God be done with it. And stop the damn whining!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
New, my friend, you're on....the race will happen! The Z06 stays as-is. The ZL1 will be the hot rod and the DH a fun driver.
Does this make sense to anybody but me? Does it really matter to anybody else? Why am I asking guys I've never seen or know for sure exist, to help me make decisions like this? I gotta up the meds!! (just kidding there, I feel like I this is one big happy disfunctional j/k family) http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
Belair62
10-12-2006, 06:45 AM
ummm...you need help... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
Charley Lillard
10-12-2006, 06:49 AM
Makes perfect sense to me.......
Belair62
10-12-2006, 06:49 AM
Shut up Charley
GRB,
Now your'e talking, sounds like a great move...
NEW
I have to learn not to accidentally hit the back button after writing a short book. IDIOT! I'll try again later. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
So here it is for the both of you who can't get enough of this BS tragedy. The ZL1 is going back to the as delivered state. Sorry NEW. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
BUT, and this is a big but, the C5R motor w/SC are going in the Z06. We will keep the rear wheel HP to about 650 to assure that it is street-able. The solid roller will probably come out and some new clutch assembly I've never heard of will go in.
Also, a little bird told me a certain Norwegian is going to be in the area on or about Nov. 9th through the 11th. This visitor will more than likely be given a ride in this REAL American hot rod. Should be a NEW experience for the visitor! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Of course, should this NEW visitor want a SC C5R 427 ZL1 to match his 454 Dick Harrell car he needs to speak up quickly before the ZL1 is returned to it's original form. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
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