COPO Chevelle plants

[COPO_Anders]

If you look at the VIN`s on this site and on copo.com it seems like all COPO Chevelles were built at the Baltimore plant. But a fellow member on this board told me about one built in California, that must be the Fremont plant.
Then I remembered the engine that was for sale at SCR9. If that one is the real deal, then that COPO was built in Kansas City.

Do you know of COPO Chevelles from other plants ?

[COPO_Anders]

Partial VIN

[COPO_Anders]

Tonawanda build date.

[ssl78]

That engine was a restamp you could feel a belly were the old number was sanded off

[Postsedan]

Yes, John is absolutey correct....future buyers beware this was indeed a restamp. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

Dan.

[Keith Tedford]

All the COPO Chevelle engines that I have seen, had the VIN stamped on the deck behind the alternator, not at the back of the block by the ring gear. Anything out of the ordinary will not bring top dollar even if it is legitimate.

[COPO_Anders]

Ok, so we have alot of Baltimore-built COPO Chevelles, and mabye one Fremont-built.

Any more known plants ?

[Keith Tedford]

I think that Bob Gagliano has/had the Freemont car.

[Belair62]

Yep...sleeping for the winter with its original black plates !!

[Stefano]

One of the things which has changed on this site over the years is that very knowledgeable hands on members no longer voice their opinions about such situations.

I applaud John for stating his first hand opinion.

The fellow selling the engine seemed to be a nice enough guy and admittedly knew very little about chevy engines and COPOs. He is a self proclaimed Mopar Guy.

However; he was very quick to jump on Dan's opinion regarding the engine and not willing to listen to the opinions of members who have had many years of experience with these cars and engines.

I don't know if any COPOs were produced at any plants other than the two mentioned. I have heard about cars and docs but have never seen "originals".

The stampings on this engine are not consistent with other known and documented examples and they do show possible signs of tampering/changes.

[Postsedan]

The "Brawl" that could have been at SCR9...hehehe

"put-em up, put-m up, put-em up.

Dan.

[COPO_Anders]

I understand it is very unlikely to find a COPO Chevelle built anywhere else than in Baltimore.

[TxMCR]

Someone on Chevelles.com brought this forum to my attention. This is a list of questions for the 3 copo experts Dan, John, & Stefano

1. How many 1969 Copo Chevelles were built? I hear that the estimate is 323.
2. How many of those are Yenko Copo Chevelles? Only 95 vins are listed on the registry.
3. Since all Yenko Chevelles were built in Baltimore does that mean all Copo Chevelles were also built in Baltimore?
4. What about the 1 verified Copo Chevelle that was built in California. How could it be a COPO and not be built in Baltimore?
5. What vehicles did the Kansas City plant produce in 1969? My info says Chevelles and El Caminos
6. Didn't Kansas City start stamping the vin on the oil filter boss instead of the engine pad? Let's hear from other Kansas City car owners on this subject.
7. This motor is a 427 and it is obviously stamped as Kansas City. What car did it come in? Corvette motors are St Louis right?
8. Since Ed @ copo.com has closed his site & registry is any car still considered certified?
9. If a car has a CE (warranty) block should it still be considered a real COPO?
10. What test can be done on a block to verify that it isn't a restamp?

I am sure you guys can answer these questions easily.

Thank-you

[TxMCR]

Where are John, Dan & Stefano? I know you guys can answer these questions since you are the experts.

[Stefano]

[ QUOTE ]
Someone on Chevelles.com brought this forum to my attention. This is a list of questions for the 3 copo experts Dan, John, & Stefano

1. How many 1969 Copo Chevelles were built? I hear that the estimate is 323. <font color="red"> No one knows for certain at this point but the 323 number does seem to support the number of accepted 9561 Copo Chevelle engines built. </font>

2. How many of those are Yenko Copo Chevelles?

Only 95 vins are listed on the registry.

<font color="red"> Approx 100 were Canonsburg built Yenko Chevelles and it is believed that an additional 10 were direct ordered by Jack Douglas Chevrolet. </font>

3. Since all Yenko Chevelles were built in Baltimore does that mean all Copo Chevelles were also built in Baltimore?

<font color="red"> No, per Jim Mattison the California Van Nuys/Freemont plant did build at least some Copo Chevelles and Camaros, both which exist as documented examples today. Baltimore and Van Nuys/Freemont are the only documented examples which exist today. </font>

4. What about the 1 verified Copo Chevelle that was built in California. How could it be a COPO and not be built in Baltimore? <font color="red"> We have been aware that some Copos were built in California, based on Jim Mattison's statements and info. He worked for the Central Office/Copo dept back in the day. </font>

5. What vehicles did the Kansas City plant produce in 1969? My info says Chevelles and El Caminos <font color="red">

Yes. </font>

6. Didn't Kansas City start stamping the vin on the oil filter boss instead of the engine pad? <font color="red"> Yes. </font> Let's hear from other Kansas City car owners on this subject. <font color="red"> Why, no issue http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif </font>

7. This motor is a 427 and it is obviously stamped as Kansas City. What car did it come in? Corvette motors are St Louis right?

<font color="red"> Yes, but the engine in question would not pass the scrutiny of being an original/untouched factory as stamped engine, IMO. So it could have come out of quite a few different cars. </font>

8. Since Ed @ copo.com has closed his site &amp; registry is any car still considered certified?

<font color="red"> Ed's certifications did not have an experation or renewal date. Do Galen's certifications or inspections lapse? Properly inspected, certified and documented cars, with good history/pedigree have no issues selling in todays market. There are other qualified entities who still certify and inspect COPO cars. </font>

9. If a car has a CE (warranty) block should it still be considered a real COPO? <font color="red">Is a real Hemi Daytona with a correct dated factory replacement engine still a Hemi Daytona. I sure think so http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif </font>

10. What test can be done on a block to verify that it isn't a restamp? <font color="red"> Experience is key, years of looking and analyzining Chevy stamps and broach marks goes a long way. Pulling off your right head may clearly show if any work was done to the pad. </font>

I am sure you guys can answer these questions easily.

Thank-you

[/ QUOTE ] <font color="red"> Hope this helps. </font>

[TxMCR]

Stefano - Thank-you for taking the time to answer the questions for the most part. Still didn't answer what car this clearly 1969 427 motor could have come from.

So you are now questioning the vin stamp at the oil filter boss. That this motor wasn't installed into a Kansas City built car. I am attaching a photo of this area.

[TxMCR]

Here is the engine pad with a straight edge along it. I would like to know where the "belly" is that John or Dan (forget which "expert" stuck his foot in mouth first)

Come on guys, I know that the eyes get fuzzy after 40.

[TxMCR]

Just in case you didn't see that I will send another picture from a different angle

[Stefano]

You would do well to reread all the above posts about the stamping of your engine. I don't think anyone mixed any words. I'm not questioning it now. I questioned it then and did provide my opinion which has not changed since I looked at the engine and stampings. But, it is after all just my humble opinion.

I stopped by a noted engine builder just the other day he had no less than 6 fresh restamps/restoration blocks being put together. Several were Stamped as L72s but didn't even start out with 4 bolt mains. This is not a new phenomenon.

[TxMCR]

here is the engine pad in question. Don't ever make the mistake of cleaning off the engine pad with a scotch brite pad because it will cause slight scratching from side to side. This was actually their "proof" at the SCR9. Imagine my surprise to find that they revised their reason based on a non-existing belly on the engine pad.

[TxMCR]

Stefano - I thought it was John's opinion you were reciting. What are you doing at a shop that fakes motors? Is this same person stamping them to order with build dates and vins to match? Yikes!!!

This motor would have had to be faked almost 9-10 years ago since it has been in my friends garage 6-7 years. Prior to that it was supposedly pulled from a car at a north Texas junkyard and then rebuilt and sold at the Dallas swap meet.

One of your buddies offered half price for this motor a couple weeks back. Imagine my surprise that a highly respected collector would consider putting a "fake" motor in one of his COPO cars. I saved his e-mails so that I could have a good chuckle.

[Stefano]

[ QUOTE ]
Stefano - I thought it was John's opinion you were reciting. What are you doing at a shop that fakes motors? Is this same person stamping them to order with build dates and vins to match? Yikes!!! <font color="red">The shop was rebuilding the allready restamped engines and I made the statement for the sake of those who quote back 10 years ago and say that it was not happening. It has been going on for a very long time with Chevys and Mopars as well as all others. </font>

This motor would have had to be faked almost 9-10 years ago since it has been in my friends garage 6-7 years. Prior to that it was supposedly pulled from a car at a north Texas junkyard and then rebuilt and sold at the Dallas swap meet. <font color="red"> Having the original car would sure go a long way, but unfortunately sounds like it is long gone. </font>

One of your buddies offered half price for this motor a couple weeks back. Imagine my surprise that a highly respected collector would consider putting a "fake" motor in one of his COPO cars. I saved his e-mails so that I could have a good chuckle.

[/ QUOTE ] <font color="red"> The engine outwardly appears to be an original L72, not a fake. I'm confident that many members would have no problem buying it at the right price, if there was a need and using it in a Copo Car.

[HiHorse]

Once passenger head is removed you can clearly see if broach lines tampered with. BUT, there is blocks that have never been stamped, once stamped (w'good stamps) very difficult to tell.

[firstgenaddict]

I have been restoring first gens since the mid 80's, can't tell you how many restamps were around, even back then over 25 years ago!

[COPO_Anders]

At least we now know that there is proof of Kansas-built COPO-Chevelles, since Rob has told us so.
One of them beeing RogerD´s Chevelle.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[mp69427]

Pic of that Kansas MP 427 w/ head off, obviously not a restamp:

http://www.69lm1.com/427mp/closeupheadoff2.JPG

[HiHorse]

The '4' does not look right, too thin...my opinion