Meaning of "numbrs matching" opinions please [Archive]

Stuart Adams

11-05-2006, 05:06 PM

#1. Numbers Matching should mean the #'s match, restamps, etc. but not original born with.
#2. Original Born With should be the proper term for components that match and are original and correct born with parts.

There needs to be "original born with" terminology used nowdays. If the car has the original born with parts it should not be advertised as numbers matching it should state "original born with numbers matching parts."

If you have the POP and restamp the numbers on a different not born with part that is date correct there should be "not original born with but numbered and dated correct part" term used.

The lay person may buy a car that says numbers matching and yes they may match but the value is different if the numbers match with born with parts. IMO.

A car with born with parts should also be worth more, IMO.

COPO CARTEL

11-05-2006, 05:07 PM

The key word would be ORIGINAL numbers matching car obviously this drasticly improves the value of the car. Also it is up to the owner to disclose ALL of the facts about the car. Numbers matching like you said could be correct part #'s and dates. We all know there are people willing to misrepresent numbers matching because of the all mighty buck. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

John

11-05-2006, 05:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
To me it means that it has its "born with" engineblock,transmissioncasing and rearend. I accept that parts that wear out, like waterpumps,pistons,transmissionparts and rearendparts are not "born with".

[/ QUOTE ]
......
....That's what the car dealers want the public to believe
....but thats not the reality of things
.....
...."Matching Numbers" MEANS JUST THAT...and no more...
....the numbers and dates corespond to the date and correct casting numbers that that vehicle came with
..NOT NECESSARILY THE ORIGINAL MOTOR
.......
.....If a car has all the original drivetrain..then they should state that...
.....
... I'm no http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif.....
...just common sense.....
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

mrrec

11-05-2006, 05:19 PM

To many people, including most NCRS folks (they seem to almost encourage restamps), numbers matching means just that: the casting dates, stamped codes, etc. match the VIN and assy dates that are appropriate for the car VIN, assy date and/or docs - restamp/altered part or not.

I agree that some other term such as "ORIGINAL" numbers matching or "born with" is necessary to distinguish between the above definition and the real thing. I believe it is unfortunate that some use the term "numbers matching" to imply that the components are original to the car. Look how many fake Z28s and 435hp Vettes are numbers matching!!

I had a major Corvette parts seller tell me that he altered casting dates frequently and justified it by saying that since you can't tell, what's the problem? The problem is, it's deception. Plain and simple.

Dave

Jeff H

11-05-2006, 05:44 PM

To me numbers matching means the original engine and trans with the partial VIN stamped from the factory. I've alwyas thought it to mean that for over 25 years. The Corvette guys kind of messed up that definition when they started restamping things for judging purposes. Since the engine and transmission are the only components with the actual VIN stamped in them, they are the main parts where the numbers match. Now if you have the POP then your rear end can also match the code and date from the POP but it still won't have the VIN stamped in it. Most of the deceiving ads out there use "number's matching" because they know people will think it's the original motor and trans. They should be using "number's correct", "factory correct", "date coded block" and also clearly state if the VIN does not match.

Rick H

11-05-2006, 06:09 PM

Everyone keeps blaming the Corvette guys when in reality it happens in ALL makes and models. Think of the Mopar guys who buy a hulk of a Hemi without drivetrain but it has the fender tag. In a few months, VIOLA, instance numbers matching car. So to point fingers at one group is ridiculous. That's not the reason I asked the question.

I can agree with the VIN stamped block and tranny but when it comes to other parts such as heads, exhaust manifolds, intakes, carbs, etc.. those without a VIN stamped into it, what does numbers matching mean?

There are some who believe that every part must be born with original to be considered numbers matching. I totally disagree.

I find the subject interesting and would like to hear more but please do not point fingers.

Thanks
Rick H.

nuch_ss396

11-05-2006, 07:06 PM

If numbers matching means, or represents "born with...", why
do the CE blocks command so much attention and/or such high
prices. We've seen it over and over again.

I used to believe that numbers matching meant "born with" but
my feelings are different these days. When you find a nice
car to restore, but the original drivetrain is missing, you
are left with the proposition of assembling the correctly
dated, and if lucky - coded, components. Once done, you
have a numbers matching car. Just not the original components
the car came from the factory with.

Now the obvious observation: We all remember lots of
performance cars from our respective pasts and how many
of those cars survived with their original engines and/or
transmissions through the 1970's. Damn near every car I
remember had a transplanted block. Yet today, so many of
our cars are "numbers matching". I live in a glass house,
so I'm not throwing anything hard here. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

I myself, in the quest to restore my grandfathers SS Camaro
back to original was forced to find numbers matching components,
but they are not, and can never be, the "born with" parts.

Is my car numbers matching? I believe it is. Is it original?
NO! How many actually are.

69hurstSC

11-05-2006, 07:25 PM

this is not as complicated as it seems. #'s matching (IMO)is simply the drivetrain (engine, trans, rearend) that the particular vehicle rolled off the assembly line with. if you grenaded the motor and replaced it with a factory correct replacement block, you no longer have matching #'s. heads, water pumps, bumpers, mirrors, to me this is all accecptable to replace.
restamping = NON #'s matching
there are a few particular grey areas that must be discussed. lets take a 69 Yenko Novas for example. these cars were born as SS 396 cars and of course those were pulled for 427's. is this still a #'s matching car? another example would be the 69 Hurst Olds. they were converted to 455's. what is everyones opinion of a car that is still dealership new, but converted somehow before the 1st original buyer purchases that car?

Keith Tedford

11-05-2006, 07:33 PM

Too many people play with words to make you assume things that probably are not true. The simple question is: "Is this engine original to the car?" Nothing vague about that. When money is involved, beware.

MosportGreen66

11-05-2006, 07:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
#1. Numbers Matching should mean the #'s match, restamps, etc. but not original born with.
#2. Original Born With should be the proper term for components that match and are original and correct born with parts.

[/ QUOTE ]

end of thread right here guys...

numbers matching means just that, the numbers match. In no way does it dictate originality. Simple put, the numbers match. Original-born-with means the motor or trans or rear in the car, is the unit originally outfitted in the car.

Nicely put Stuart!

Zedder

11-05-2006, 07:37 PM

Rick is right...it's not the Corvette guys fault...their just the first (and it seems the only ones) who were prepared to accept the fact that WE (as in car enthusiasts) created this situation by apply a much greater value to "matching numbers" cars. Naturally, those seeking to get greater value for their cars and, in some cases, those who simply didn't want to have their car looked down upon because the original motor was trashed like so many were back in the day, started "restoring the motor numbers just like any other part of the car. Originally, the Corvette guys (and I was one of them at the time - mid 90's) were on a mission to uncover any deception during the judging process and they were pretty succesful. However, the restampers got better and soon it was nearly impossible for even the most seasoned judge to call a restamped block. So, rather than fight something that they couldn't stop, they decided to accept the current state of the hobby and "allow" restamps for judging. The sad part of this is that the actual stamping on the engine block carries such little weight, that it really doesn't have a huge impact on the car's score.

Those struggling with the change in terminology need to just accept that this is where the hobby has come to, whether you like it or not, you or I won't change it! Kinda like the whole "clone" or "re-creation" thing. In the '70's when I was a teen, we put SS hoods and emblems on any plain Jane Camaro or Chevelle we bought - everyone did! We openly called them "fake SS's" and no one thought anything about it since we really didn't know how to tell a real car from a fake anyway http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I still hate the "clone" term, but the reality is that it takes some of the deception out of building a fake and maybe it's better to at least call a spade a spade and accept that it happens.

I'm not ready to restamp a motor personally yet, but I would consider buying a car with a restamped motor if it was disclosed and well done. Frankly, after the recent threads here and on Team Camaro regarding this, I think the Corvette guys are smarter than we give them credit for...you seldom see a restamp or motor bashing thread on the Corvette boards any more. Yesterday, I decided that I will never "guarantee" another motor etc. to be original becuase it's just not worth the BS that follows as you try and "prove" it to people that have no interest in buying a the car in the first place! Look at the BS that Jerry MacNeish is having piled on him for "certifying" the Green Z at Legendary...the comments being thrown at him are simply not fair and it sickens me to see how negative the hobby has become.

LS6 RAT

11-05-2006, 07:43 PM

Rick,

Your "numbers matching" inquiry is tough to answer easily. My opinion is that there are only 3 items that can be considered numbers matching. This assumes that what we are "matching" is the VIN plate designation to the cylinder case, transmission case and frame/unibody that contains the VIN or a partial derivative of it.
Another argument can be said, about the Protect-0-plate metal card that contains the assembly stampings, and that the engine, transmission and rear axle can all be "matched" to the POP.
Beyond this, I would say all other components could be properly dated for the build of the vehicle, or contain the proper casting numbers associated with the inventory of parts used to build this specific vehicle and its options.

Late BrakeU2

11-05-2006, 08:26 PM

Semantics and date coded parts aside,a car is only original once.CE blocks get about the same respect as cars without paperwork it seems.What about the member with the 67Z for sale who wanted some opinions on his motors originality? It's been pretty much validated on here by some of the foremost authorities as the one it came down the line with,and still there are a few conspiracy theorists. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

deuce-less

11-05-2006, 08:56 PM

perhaps some of us miss the best part of the hobby being caught up in the "numbers game"...

are we hesitant to even drive and enjoy our precious investment grade muscle cars??

what if we lose the original born with block because of an over-rev or missed shift?

i guess then we have to keep a non-numbers block in the car to drive and keep the born with block stored away for safe keeping...

or maybe a camaro we can flog without remorse when we feel the need and our original born with drive train car safe at home in its environmentally stable storage facility

there will be a day when we all wish we had spent a little more time with the pedal down and a little less time crawling under cars with a flash light checking numbers..

jmo http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

BillD

11-05-2006, 09:05 PM

For years I have felt the statement "matching numbers" when used in an advertisement means pretty much NOTHING other than the vin number that appears on the block matches the vin number of the car. I have looked at cars advertised as "matching numbers" where the casting date of the block is months past the build date of the car, or the block has even been the wrong casting.

Gregs396

11-05-2006, 09:08 PM

I am going to classify my understanding of a Matching numbers car, as one that does have the born with drivetrain.
If you have a replacement block or trans that don't have the VIN of the car that they are in, you don't have numbers that match. Some numbers will match, but not all of them. I guess that you could say that I have a car with partial matching numbers if you wanted to be 100% correct with your statement. Different VIN's on the car and block aren't matching no matter how you look at it. Yes, you can replace items such as manifolds, carbs, distributers with ones that are numbered and dated correctly, but those items don't have the VIN stamped on them, and there is no way to prove that they have been replaced to begin with. I agree that certain people have distorted the true meaning of matching numbers to accomidate what they are trying to sell, or what they have. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

Late BrakeU2

11-05-2006, 11:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
perhaps some of us miss the best part of the hobby being caught up in the "numbers game"...

are we hesitant to even drive and enjoy our precious investment grade muscle cars??

what if we lose the original born with block because of an over-rev or missed shift?

i guess then we have to keep a non-numbers block in the car to drive and keep the born with block stored away for safe keeping...

or maybe a camaro we can flog without remorse when we feel the need and our original born with drive train car safe at home in its environmentally stable storage facility

there will be a day when we all wish we had spent a little more time with the pedal down and a little less time crawling under cars with a flash light checking numbers..

jmo http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

All valid points.Everyone is entitled to enjoy their car a they see fit- it's an elective decision.For some the joy is driving the car for what it was designed for,others it's the preservation and historical significance.Some of these high end cars are iconic,so yes perhaps the days of "enjoying them" in the dynamic sense has passed due to the risk.Obviously the attrition rate for motors was very high during the first years of ownership,because just about everyone drove theirs like the stole it.You can't have that missed up(or down) shift back any more than those docs that got thrown away during the Nixon administration.Once it's gone,that element of the cars history is permanent.

So yes,it's probably a good idea if you do have a high end collectible,like to drive your car in spirited fashion,and are lucky enough to still have the "born in driveline" it's makes both financial and common sense to put that motor aside in favor of one you're categorically less likely to lose sleep over if you pop it.I think to a degree some of these cars are the baton we carry as they change from owner to owner through time,couldn't even imagine how bad the feeling would risking damaging the car after so many years of prior discilpined ownership.

JimM

11-06-2006, 12:34 AM

over at "home" we have this discussion about yearly.

Last year, it was pretty easily accepted that #'s matching meant the car carried the (vin stamped) block it left the factory with, "Date Correct" meant the original engine was long gone, but the car had been put back together with parts that "could have" been in it originally. CE Blocks, as warranty replacments, are almost numbers matching, and perhaps are if the paperwork detailing the replacement survived.

restamps were NOTHING MORE THAN FRAUD.

This year, that definition seems to be changing for many, particularly those who make money buying selling or restoring cars.

Frankly, I can't stand it. There is one and only one numbers matching engine for each and every Chevy that left the factory with the partial vin stamped on the engine block.

If you want a "numbers matching" car, get another car.

That said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a well done date correct restoration. It will always be "not quite numbers matching" but many of these cars led hard lives, that's not unexpected and doesn't take away too much.

To dilute an absolute term in the name of dollars is unconscionable

x Baldwin Motion

11-06-2006, 02:14 AM

mrrec

11-06-2006, 04:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone keeps blaming the Corvette guys......So to point fingers at one group is ridiculous. Thanks
Rick H.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're talking about me, Rick H., you're barking up the wrong tree. I didn't "blame" anyone or "point fingers" at anyone. You asked for opinions and you got mine. I stated that the NCRS guys seem to encourage restamps. Read the judging manuals. I used an example of a Corvette parts seller that told me he altered dates. Fact. Could be Camaro or Chevelle parts seller but HE told me.

Dave

Salvatore

11-06-2006, 04:49 PM

I like and agree with what X11 71 71 said! NEVER had these numbers and "Do not drive" problems till the non car guys got into the mix.

Jeff H

11-06-2006, 06:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I like and agree with what X11 71 71 said! NEVER had these numbers and "Do not drive" problems till the non car guys got into the mix.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with that because back in the late 80's a #'s matching Z28 or SS396 was out of my price range so I couldn't buy one. Into the early 90's and the same thing, they continued to be out of my price range. Then in the late 90's I decided to make it happen and got a large loan so I could buy what I wanted to have. I've been through several loans now to get where I am with my 2 cars. So to me, #'s matching has always meant original drivetrain and combine that with a high performance car they have always commanded a premium. When the stock market tanked in 2001, everything changed and investors got into the musclecar market. I'd like to complain about the prices going up, but the good thing about the price increase is that it allowed for much better quality restorations. And today, people who have the funds, are willing to spend the money for the car they always wanted. But it's the sellers(and it's not just classic car dealers) have manipulated the term "matching number's" to sound like original equipment when it may not be original to that particular car. The only reason they do it is to inflate the price. "Matching number's" is not used to win awards at car shows, it's used to represent the car as original and increase the price/value. That's how I remember things happening but I'm sure everyone has their own thoughts and it's not really something anyone needs to argue about.

TimG

11-06-2006, 06:14 PM

"Matching numbers" no longer means original engine in the buying world. Many dealers advertise "matching numbers" cars, but they certainly won't certify the engine as the original one for liability reasons. In today's world, before you get serious about a car, you need to ask;

1) Is it the original engine with the original stamps

2) Does it have the correct build derivative and matching ID number on the pad

A car could have the original engine, but the engine was decked in an earlier rebuild. The broach and numbers could be replaced on the original engine and you have the original engine with "matching numbers".

Salvatore

11-06-2006, 07:05 PM

Well I guess I missed that part back in the 80's about people talking about matching numbers. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif Today matching numbers to me doesn't mean all original to the car. It should but it doesn't to me. It means the numbers all match each other. So I am more aware of that when I look at these cars. The words "matching numbers" can be misleading.

Hylton

11-06-2006, 07:13 PM

Just drive the damn things......

SS4Real

11-06-2006, 07:14 PM

Dale McIntosh's opinion as quoted on the Team Chevelle website and the best definition I have seen:

1. Engine block should be original to the car and where applicable, the engine ID and partial VIN of the car should be present and not restamped. All appropriate external equipment should be on the engine. For example, if it came with smog equipment (A.I.R.) then it should have the smog equipment especially if the engine is coded as such.
2. Heads don't have be original to the car but should be of same type and casting dates should be appropriate. Naturally it's easy if the heads are original.
3. Intake should be correct casting number and casting date.
4. Carb, distributor, exhaust manifolds should be correct casting/part numbers and casting dates.
5. Obvious items that are replaced due to wear and tear such as water pump, alternator, p/s pump, a/c compressor, plugs/wires/oil filter etc should be correct type. Rebuilt alternators are available with correct numbers and dates however.
5. Transmission and rear should be original to the car and have the correct ID and casting numbers.
6. I may differ with others on this one but the paint color(s) and interior should match what is on the Fisher Body plate as well. If the car originally was Sierra Fawn for example with tan bench seat interior and has been repainted resale red with black buckets, the car no longer matches the numbers on the body plate.

Salvatore

11-06-2006, 07:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Just drive the damn things......

[/ QUOTE ]I like this post the best!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

ANDY M

11-06-2006, 07:49 PM

Hey Sam, you mean like this:
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a146/ameyers215/SCR9dragrace.jpg
Just love that sound of WOT! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif
Nothing wrong with numbers, but they can sure hold back performance vs. originality. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

The car has been slightly modified since SCR. Had to replace the cam, and get some meat on the new wheels http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gifhttp://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a146/ameyers215/newshoes4.jpg
Can't wait till next year.

Salvatore

11-06-2006, 10:03 PM

I love it! I don't race mine but give credit to those who do!! I at least drive it often. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

BARRY

11-06-2006, 11:32 PM

HI I HAD A COPO CAMARO I BOUGHT THE CAR IN 1978 AND SOLD IT 1998 I DROVE THAT CAR EVERY WHERE I PUT 30,000 MILES ON THE CAR HAD LOTS OF FUN A FRIEND OF MINE SAID YOU SHOULD BUY THAT CAR BACK I SAID NO THANKS I WOULD NOT HAVE FUN BABY SITTING IT CAN YOU IMAGINE 30,000 MILES AT 6 MILES TO THE GALLON http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Rick H

11-06-2006, 11:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you're talking about me, Rick H., you're barking up the wrong tree.

[/ QUOTE ]

No I wasn't talking about you Dave and my response wasn't even to your post. An further more it wasn't directed at one person, it was directed at the general statement that the Corvette guys started it all. Which in my opinion is not the case but is equally done among all the classic car makes.

How about reading the every post.

Rick H.

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

11-06-2006, 11:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you're talking about me, Rick H., you're barking up the wrong tree.

[/ QUOTE ]

No I wasn't talking about you Dave and my response wasn't even to your post. An further more it wasn't directed at one person, it was directed at the general statement that the Corvette guys started it all. Which in my opinion is not the case but is equally done among all the classic car makes.

How about reading the every post.

Rick H.

[/ QUOTE ]

With a comment like your last line, you needn't wonder why people think you are singling them out. Here's a point, quit being a smart-ass http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

Rick H

11-06-2006, 11:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well I guess I missed that part back in the 80's about people talking about matching numbers. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Same here. Through the 70's and 80's I can not remember a time when it was it ever brought up.

Rick H.

Verne_Frantz

11-07-2006, 01:38 AM

OK, I wasn't going to add my 2 cents to this, but I'm going out on a limb here..............

It is my belief that it WAS the Corvette people who started this whole mess of "matching numbers". Advertisements for cars for sale that 1st used the term "numbers match" were always for Corvettes. Afterall, they were the only marque of car in the hobby (that I know of) that has a National sanctioning body that allowed (if not encouraged) restamping on components for judging credit. As long as the "numbers matched" and appeared "as original", then FULL judging credit was allowed (and still is to this day!).

Now, as to your original question....... Since the term "numbers matching" has lost it's original meaning and is used by every seller who's found a correctly dated part, when I see that term used, I automatically assume it's a built, made, or bogus car. As others have stated, if the components were ORIGINAL, then that should be the statement.

No one really knows what "numbers matching" means; we all just know what we'd LIKE it to mean... But everyone knows what "Original Driveline" means!!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif No interpretation needed!

Thanks for the chance to vent. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Verne

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

11-07-2006, 01:57 AM

Maybe the NCRS will trademark 'numbers matching' term like they did 'Survivor' - or whatever word it was http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

I think the consensus is that the meaning has changed with the dollar values, whether we like it or not is irrelevant, so we come up with a new term to describe what was originaly intended: Born With, Original, etc.... Fun stuff eh? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

TDW

11-07-2006, 02:44 AM

I like the term "the original angine and transmission that were installed at the factory when the car was initially built and left the assembly line". There should be no mistaking that statement.

Verne_Frantz

11-07-2006, 02:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe the NCRS will trademark 'numbers matching' term like they did 'Survivor' - or whatever word it was http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

I didn't specifically point the finger at the NCRS, but you hit the right target Marlin.

BY the way, it was the Bloommington guys who tried to trademark the survivor word from the dictionary!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

Mr70

11-07-2006, 02:53 AM

and FYI...Cheese-nips are not the same as Cheez-it's.
needed to be said.. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v669/Rick_Peters/popcorn.gif

Salvatore

11-07-2006, 03:20 AM

I like cheez-its better with a http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

nuch_ss396

11-07-2006, 05:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe the NCRS will trademark 'numbers matching' term like they did 'Survivor' - or whatever word it was http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

I think the consensus is that the meaning has changed with the dollar values, whether we like it or not is irrelevant, so we come up with a new term to describe what was originaly intended: Born With, Original, etc.... Fun stuff eh? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Marlin,

Perhaps another factor in the change of meaning of "numbers matching"
is the age of the major components, wear and tear of SHP
parts, etc.. You have to admit, the further away we get
from the cars actual birthday, the more likely we are to
need replacement parts.

Where major wear components are concerned - like cylinder
blocks, transmissions and/or hear housings, once we are faced
with the prospect of replacing a "born with" part, we all are left
with the sobering thought of having to then jump into the
sea of "numbers matching" terminology.

I've mentioned this here many times before. SHP cars were
born and bred for racing. A normal part of that application
is blown drivetrains. I wonder how many of the Yenko's, COPO's,
Z/28's, L/78's, etc. actually have their "born with" drivetrains intact.

Again, I live in a glass house too, so no stone throwing here. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

LS6 RAT

11-07-2006, 07:14 AM

This has been a very interesting discussion, a lot of good opinions expressed.

Here's another interesting term to ponder about, what its true meaning infers...factory stock. When these words are used to describe a musclecars condition, my mind automatically assumes that nothing has been altered since factory assembly, however this term seems to be as loosely used as the above phrase we are discussing.

To me when someone says that their engine is stock, I take that to mean, no cylinder boring, no camshaft replacement, piston replacement, no porting, polishing, milling, decking. It should mean no altering of the engine assembly at all!

How many here are calling their 396, 427, 454 engines stock, but have an overbore?

Salvatore

11-07-2006, 08:15 AM

Hey Warren, Now you are splitting hairs. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

RamAirDave

11-07-2006, 08:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps another factor in the change of meaning of "numbers matching"
is the age of the major components, wear and tear of SHP
parts, etc.. You have to admit, the further away we get
from the cars actual birthday, the more likely we are to
need replacement parts.

[/ QUOTE ]

While many of the SHP blocks were killed within the first several years of their lives, I would think there is a very small percentage of those that have been grenaded in the last 10-15 years or so.

I dont think the amount of "#s" engines has declined much in that time period, so I'm not sure that would be a reason for the "recent" change for the term "numbers matching".

nuch_ss396

11-07-2006, 03:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps another factor in the change of meaning of "numbers matching"
is the age of the major components, wear and tear of SHP
parts, etc.. You have to admit, the further away we get
from the cars actual birthday, the more likely we are to
need replacement parts.

[/ QUOTE ]

While many of the SHP blocks were killed within the first several years of their lives, I would think there is a very small percentage of those that have been grenaded in the last 10-15 years or so.

I dont think the amount of "#s" engines has declined much in that time period, so I'm not sure that would be a reason for the "recent" change for the term "numbers matching".

[/ QUOTE ]

Dave,

I think you furthered my point. I agree that in the past
10-15 years many of these SHP cars have been babied. However,
the bulk of the cars already had suffered major component
failure. Remember, they were bought to beat & race. During
the mid to late 1970's almost every engine I took apart
had a rather large ridge at the top of the cylinder walls.

Some day when this non-sense is all over, we can sit down
and talk about how original our cars really are. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

TimG

11-07-2006, 06:41 PM

NCRS has not encouraged the restamping of engines and components. Owners make the decision to restamp engines and components to garnish the maximum points and values from their cars. There is no judging process more through or severe than NCRS as far as judging engine stamps goes. If an engine smells of a restamp from the standpoint of letters, numbers, or broach, it will be penalized points. They look for restamps and call them out (and really upset some owners).
Restamping has helped to dilute the value of the term "matching numbers". Before good restamps, "matching numbers" was interpreted as original engine. With the advent of good restamps, "matching numbers" no longer can be interpreted as original engine.
I've had many cars Flight Judged and never presented a restamped engine for judging, but there are many restamps present at NCRS events. They are severely scrutinized, especially at the Waco Regional where stamp judges attend in abundance.
Many an owner leaves disappointed with the decision the judges made about their stampings.
Actually, the judging process allows points for no VIN, no build derivatives or an engine from another car. You can easily Top Flight if you have a car with absolutely no build or VIN derivative. NCRS initiated this philosophy to specifically deter stamping an engine that is "correct" for a car. There is no "boxing" a car (no Gold if anything is non typical factory production on the pad) like you see at Bloomington. NCRS will welcome a car with absolutely nothing but a broach on a pad and will reward it with a Top Flight if the remainder of the car is Flight worthy.

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

11-07-2006, 07:36 PM

Thanks for the insight Tim, it's good to understand the history behind the practice. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

Help me with a few terms; what does 'boxing' mean? What is the difference (if any) between Bloomington, vs. NCRS, vs. Waco, vs. Top Flight? Or, are they all the same?

TimG

11-07-2006, 10:46 PM

Marlin,

"Boxing" means that if there are any inconsistencies in the engine casting date, casting number, VIN derivative, assembly derivative or broach marks, the car is not eligible to receive a Bloomington Gold award regardless of the final score. The car is "boxed" from receiving a Gold award even if it scored 99% in all the other areas. This is different than NCRS where you are allowed to put a virgin block in a car with the correct casting date and casting number and you would only loose 25 points for the VIN derivative and 25 points for the assembly stamping (out of 4,500 total).

This is essentially the same deduction as you would receive if your antenna did not raise properly (25 points) and if your cigarette lighter did not heat up properly (25 points). Your car could still easily receive a Top Flight award with a completely different motor in the car, say from another car. Total deduct would be 25 points if the assembly stamp, casting date, casting number and broach were intact.

The Waco, TX fall Regional event is probably one of the largest and most difficult NCRS events with the exception of the National NCRS event and the January Regional in Florida. For some reason, all the Master Judges like to come to Waco in Fall. It's a great, small town and the accommodations are nice as is the weather. Consequently, we have very tough judging. It is said that if a car can receive a Top Flight at Waco, it will probably receive a Top Flight at the NCRS Nationals and would probably receive a Bloomington Gold. The Waco, TX Regional event that is held in Fall is an NCRS event.

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

11-07-2006, 11:22 PM

Excellent explanation, thanks. One final clarification; is the Bloomington judging/award independant of the NCRS? If so, why are two sanctioning bodies?

TimG

11-07-2006, 11:57 PM

Marlin,

They are separate sanctioning bodies with different formats and criteria. That's why it's nice to have a car judged at NCRS and Bloomington. Of course, Bloomington is once a year and is a for profit venue. They do have very qualified judges, probably the best in the business or the cream of the crop.
NCRS events are all around the world and the severity and quality of the judging depends on if it is a Chapter, Regional or National event. There may be a very small Chapter event in some States with relatively new and less experienced judges. The venues are different and you never mention NCRS at Bloomington. It's kind of discouraged to even have an NCRS sticker on your car at Bloomington. They just evolved as separate organizations with lots of overlap in judging. All the Bloomington judges probably judged NCRS. Bloomington is for profit with a very limited time to review cars and NCRS is a non profit organization that allows all the time you want to review cars. NCRS grooms and encourages new judges at Chapter and Regional events. National NCRS meets use the Master judges, no messing around at this level. It is sure nice to have a car judged at a National NCRS event and at Bloomington.

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

11-08-2006, 12:39 AM

Interesting... I just assumed they were one and the same! I hope to own a Corvette someday, and would like to experience both the NCRS and Bloomington events.

Salvatore

11-08-2006, 12:46 AM

Corvette? Ah come on! What about Ben's nova? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

TimG

11-08-2006, 12:59 AM

If there is an NCRS event near where you live, attend and watch. It's fun.

Pacecarjeff

11-08-2006, 01:03 AM

Bloomington Gold is the company who has the patent on "Survivor".
They are a for profit operation, because of this, their popularity has declined a bit recently.
Bloomington Gold's new owner- Dana Mecum, wants to protect his interests, and he is mostly interested in selling cars.

The way that NCRS does the numbers thing, has taken away a lot of the importance of the actual stamp pad.
A good thing really...
It is nice to have your original engine, but you can still do very well in NCRS judging without it.

At Carlisle last year, I saw a car for sale - no motor/no trans, had a sign calling it "matching numbers"
When I asked the seller? He said simply with a straight face:
"the VIN number, matches the title"

It has become such a generic term these days,
that it really does not mean a thing anymore.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif