Hypothetical value question???

[Zedder]

With all of the talk lately about "born with" engines etc., I'd like to see what others think about the values of cars with various original components and paperwork etc. Please, I'd like to keep this civil, so if you are looking for a fight, please don't respond.

Let's say there are 3 identically restored number 1 cars and that the first is an original "born with" drivetrain car with bullet proof docs (buildsheet, POP, GM Canada paperwork etc.) and the fair market value is $150K - it doesn't matter what kind of car it is. The second car has the original "born with" drivetrain, but no docs. The third as a correctly dated "restoration" motor (undetectably restamped) and has full documentation like the first car. What value would you place on cars 2 and 3?

[427king]

Car #2 75K, car #3 is the same as car #1 ,so 150K, unless you can prove one pad is real and the other is a restamp. If so id call car #3 at a small discount ,or 140K. Even if car #3 is a restamp it is still a real factory car,if Car #2 is a restamp,it cant even be proven it wasnt a 6 cylinder car.

[69L72RS]

Mark,
I'll toss my opinion out.
I will answer from my personal point of view for buying a car to keep (not resell later).

Also cars in unrestored condition is easier to answer.

Also I am assuming since car type doesn't matter then neither will the dealer (certain dealer cars are verifyable by VIN).

If car #2 has verifiable restoration documentation I would consider it equal to #1, for ME. The type of restoration documentation that I mention would be a pictoral or video detail of the disassemble of the car showing the VIN specific parts during the process.

If car #3 was presented as having a "restoration" engine, I would view it to be worth about no more then $135K. About 10% less. If the whole drivetrain is "restoration" parts I would view it at about $75K (or %50) for certain cars.

If the car is going to be turned the documentation might have a higher influence.

Paper doesn't carry much weight for me when I am looking into buying a car. JMHO

Eric

[69L72RS]

Chuck,
I would bet that you could spot a restamp at arms length.
I know that I wouldn't get taken on a restamp.

[427king]

Eric,To be honest, Neither you nor I could spot a restamp if it started with a factory original unstamped block using factory stamps,thats the whole reason i dont put any weight into "real" stamp pads,i put it all in the factory paperwork. Im shocked you would call a factory documented car and a non- doc car as the same. Especially given my first statement. Remember,factory paperwork=no stories or excuses,"original" motors just add to the paperwork,not the other way around.

[69L72RS]

If car #2 didn't have a verifiable doumenting of the restoration, then it would fall behing car #3 and I probably wouldn't give it a second look.
My criteria for this follows a specific sequence of conditions and events.

Sorry, I ingnored the "GM of Canada" restriction in the beginnig post.
I was just think of some of the other cars that I have checked out in the past.
I was applying this scenario to all makes Gm, Ford, Etc.
Two of the cars I was remembering from the past could not have had blank blocks, to base a restamp from. Sorry for the cofusion.

I had close to the same deduction that you did for car #3 ($135K), noting that the car was disclosed as having a restoration engine.

Eric http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Zedder]

Thanks guys, I really appreciate you taking the time to comment. Eric, I threw the GM Canada stuff in there just because that is about the only Docs that I can truly guarantee to be 100% fool proof these days. I'm not saying that other docs are not legit to me, I'm just saying for this hypothetical situation I wanted to take any notion of fake docs out of the equation.

427king, I am starting to think along your lines with respect to docs versus original motors now too. I always thought that I would value an original motor more, but after seeing some amazing restamps this past summer, I just don't think any of us can call a restamp 100% of the time.

I'd love to hear other opinions also http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[WILMASBOYL78]

If there is a documented photo library for the #2 car prior to resto, that clearly shows the VIN components and other special parts then I would only discount the price a little...maybe 10%. The real important thing for me is seeing the "original patina" of the car before it was touched or messed with. One my Novas is an L78 Th400 car that sat in storage for over 25 years. No docs, just build sheet showing SS option...but the car was basically untouched....most of the original elements were in place...you just can't fake a 35 year old survivor car..at least I don't know how! There is certainly a lot of fake stuff out there in todays world of cars....seeing the car prior to resto is a key issue to me....in most cases the "real" cars speak for themselves...

wilma

[JQ]

What if you have a number 1 car that has it's born with drivetrain with no factory/dealer documentation,but the seller has done extensive research and has received vintage pictures from previous owners.. Great thread.. JQ.

[WILMASBOYL78]

If a seller has a documented chain of ownership and you can verify originality of the car from those folks it should be fine. Vintage photos, letters and hopefully some personal phone time with prior owners would be great. Unlikely that someone can create "fake' vintage pics and/or info from several prior owners. Remember most of these cars changed hands a number of times, so you would have to have a major conspiracy to get everyone to supply fake info. If the car is a one or two owner unit, then the detective work should be that much easier. Interesting thread for discussion. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif


wilma

[BARN FIND]

[ QUOTE ]
Eric,To be honest, Neither you nor I could spot a restamp if it started with a factory original unstamped block using factory stamps,thats the whole reason i dont put any weight into "real" stamp pads,i put it all in the factory paperwork. Im shocked you would call a factory documented car and a non- doc car as the same. Especially given my first statement. Remember,factory paperwork=no stories or excuses,"original" motors just add to the paperwork,not the other way around.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have kept my opinion to myself, on restamps and the ability to get the "right" kind of stamps to do it up to this point, when I was in college I worked for a company that made...you guessed it rubber and metal stamps. The font on the Vin tag, Body plate, and Engine/Trany stamp is not a special "Auto only" font only available to the manufacturers. And here is the kicker, it does not cost much to have a set made. So, I would say that as long as the machine surface on the deck is correct, it would not be hard to do a restamp that would fool 99.99% of the people.

[427king]

[ QUOTE ]
it would not be hard to do a restamp that would fool 99.99% of the people.


[/ QUOTE ] Im thinking this person is that other .01% that would be the only one not fooled.

[BARN FIND]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it would not be hard to do a restamp that would fool 99.99% of the people.


[/ QUOTE ] Im thinking this person is that other .01% that would be the only one not fooled.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have a excellent point!!! You notice I did not mention the name of the company I worked for, no reason to make it any easier on the scammers.