Interesting reading

[Bill Howell]

Here is an article by a guy who in the past sat on the stage at Barrett Jackson auctions. He is the editor of Steve Marlin's Sports Car Market. Obviously he likes European rides better than American Muscle, but I bet he will no longer sit on Barrett Jackson stage....lol
Not nice to talk doom and gloom about the musclecar market when they write your checks...geez
Anyway, I thought I would post this here and see what everyone thinks.
http://www.musclerides.com/Pages/posting/shiftinggears.jpg

[TimG]

I don't see the prices of '69 Z28's falling. They are hard to find and expensive when you find them, even for a car that had over 19,000 examples made. Supply and demand, they sell. The LS6 Chevelle at over 4,000 made is in demand, I'm not looking for one because I'd rather have another car for that type of money, but I think they are great and attractive cars. Possibly some day I'll break down and own one. I don't think that an LS6 Chevelle with original engine and paperwork will ever be in the $30,000 or $40,000 price in my lifetime. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[Stuart Adams]

Hey Bill. Interesting reading.

[PeteLeathersac]

Foolish fellow as we all know what happens to the dog who bites the hand! .

On what he says, the values very well may change this much but it seems what he's forgetting is how percentage wise there's often more lads who grew up w/ Chevys and are in the Chevy market considering what's real of what's left of the build quantities of LS6's and '69 Z28's compared to the amount of collectors who will really be considering buying the lower production European exotic stuff he refers to? .

I don't think he's ever driven a Hemi anything as you can't say it's not fun if you have!!!
If he's ever driven anything hard, I'd doubt it...yes we'll keep it a family site! .
Looking at the pic and the way the he's sitting in the MG-TD or Morgan or whatever it is, he's a fellow that want's to fall into the old ways, smoke a pipe and wear a cap telling everyone how he knows this or that and how superior something English really is/was...like new Jaguars or the Lucas Electric Company or whatever? .

The only part I took much note of is how he refers to Ferraris with no stories...this is what we need to consider with the genuine 'real-deal' muscle cars! .
Whatever the values are or will be worth, lets all work on and build our vehicles genuine pedigrees also expose the fakes, admit the clones and get on the history train before we get less or no co-operation from vehicle record departments and the like! .
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif
~ Pete

[GRB]

I don't think Martin has the slightest understanding of the motivation behind so many American muscle car purchases. He also confuses the Ferrari collector, who it appears are buying for investment purposes, with muscle car lovers who, speaking for myself, don't expect to make money or even sell our toys.

He would rather have a Beck spyder than a 6 cyl. Dodge Challenger with a HEMI stuffed in it? Are you f***ing nuts mister??

Martin may have a clue what's going on with Ferrari collectors but having not lived through 60's America and never having felt a teenager's lust for a car he could only dream of, he is simply pontificating about something he knows nothing about.

No thanks Mr. Martin, I'll use my own judgement when it comes to American muscle.

[camaromb]

I don't think one can compare the short term hysteria of a mass produced consumer product like Beanie Babies to muscle cars in general that are over 30 years old. Overvalued dot.com stocks that tanked did so for a number of reasons, one of them was the reality of their true financial status vs. hyped earnings, etc.
There will always be a demand for cool old cars. Yes it will come and go to a degree, but the best of the best, the rare documented examples of american muscle cars wil remain in strong demand for those of us who enjoy them. There may be better investments in the future, money people may leave the car market as they have done before, but the car guys will stay. There are too many of us who want the same rare cars!
I'd like to see these $ 80,000 '69 z's that are now bargain priced at $ 60,000? Are the big multi-million dollar collections going to be liquidated at bargain prices when the sky falls? I don't see it happening. I for one would buy more cars if it happened.
Mark

[Stuart Adams]

Maybe I'm stupid, probably am, but good cars are hard to come by and those cars will keep the prices up on good cars.

What else to spend money on that is cool, friends, good times, etc. Oh by the way anyone have a 69 JL8 Z that I can buy for 70-80K!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[Bill Howell]

Yeah, that was pretty much my point. The 40,000 LS6 Chevelles, even if that number is correct is not hardly the way it is. How many of these cars are still around, and how many more 40 something or 50 something year old males want one? Obviously he wants to go back to the day when Barrett Jackson was a niche auction selling D-burgs and such. With Steve there now, it is so much more main stream and I doubt seriously there will be any of those $60K 69Zs there....lol
OH, Hey Stuart, see I do come here too....lol

[TDW]

Hey Stuart, I'll be right behind you in line for one of those!

[Xplantdad]

[ QUOTE ]

OH, Hey Stuart, see I do come here too....lol

[/ QUOTE ]

You Lateral-G guys, you...LOL http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Bill Howell]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

OH, Hey Stuart, see I do come here too....lol

[/ QUOTE ]

You Lateral-G guys, you...LOL http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Lateral-g, Protouring, Musclerides.........
Way too much time wasted every day....lol

[Zedder]

I guess I am in the minority since I agree with the guy http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif He didn't give a time frame for when the correction will happen and a true crash is still a ways off I believe, but prices on cars like '69 Z's have already dropped - maybe not to $60K but certainly less than the summer of 2005 - that was the high water mark as far as I am concernced. Look at how many neat cars have been for sale on this site that people said were a great deal etc. and they are still for sale or were sold at a reduced price. Just my opinion, so don't flame me too much http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[GRB]

Martin's show "Appraise My Car" is on HDDSC right now. 8P Eastern. Going over a '63 spit window.

[Xplantdad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

OH, Hey Stuart, see I do come here too....lol

[/ QUOTE ]

You Lateral-G guys, you...LOL http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Lateral-g, Protouring, Musclerides.........
Way too much time wasted every day....lol

[/ QUOTE ]


Yea Bill...but it's a good waste of time, right? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Bill Howell]

Yeah Bruce, sometimes I wonder just what it was I used to do before forums came along...lol
At least my wife knows were I am at and what I am doing.

BTW, I hope we can meet in January. I will be in Scottsdale all week. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Xplantdad]

We'll definitely meet up...details to follow soon! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[TXSS]

I think this guy is clueless. However, there are some inherent problems judging market prices based on one model over one year. It seams that many people use the price of 69 Z28's as the bench mark on muscle cars prices in general. That seams risky to me given the fact that I have never seen so many 69 Z28's for sale as I've seen in the past year. At any given time you can find 20-30 for sale on eBay alone vs. 5-6 LS6's. If the market is truly driven buy supply and demand the prices on 69 Z's may be down because there are so many available. I know I sold two nicely restored, numbers matching 69 Z's in late 04 and early 05 and was hard pressed to get high 30's for either one. If the current prices are down from the 80's to the 60's I see that as a minor short term fluctuation but still a healthy increase over the longer term. I don't think anyone really knows what these prices will do over the short term. However, as long as enthusiasts control the market and not investors the market will stay healthy. Very healthy. There is one factor that does not exist in many markets/investments and that is the emotional connection we have to these cars. As long as that connection exists people will pay more to satisfy that need. I know I will and have regardless of how it may effect my return. I just can't get to excited about buying pork bellies

[olredalert]

------The prices of really good Z28s last year brought a bunch of weak sisters out of hibernation for "restorations" (please note the quotes). Yes, there are a few too many Z28s out there for sale at the moment, but not too many GOOD Z28s for sale. If the price is below $65000 start asking questions or digging deeper as there is likely a problem there somewhere.
------Original, born with engine cars are above all the rest as there are so few 69 Zs with original engines. Once the kids who bought them new found out just how high you had to twist them to make the little buggers run right a bunch of original drivetrains went south.
------In other words there is a short term glut of 69 Zs at the moment that I think will be cut back to former levels as spring gets under way.......Bill S

[GRB]

When you see these immaculate "original" older muscle cars does it dawn on anybody else that nobody left these cars OE back then? At least, nobody I knew. Future value had no meaning to us. And after they got a year or two on them it was 'Katy bar the door'!

And, does that mean that many of the 'original' cars are actually loaded with NOS or used parts?

BTW - I found the original sales invoice for my '70 LT1 Corvette. For the record - no PS or PB and naturally no A/C. Tilt wheel was $84.30. 370 HP engine was $447.65. Tires were $33.15 (why would there be an up-charge for those POS GDY Wide Boots?)

Cash Price of Unit (I guess there was no MSRP at that time) was $5,309.00 Total, inc. options and tax - $6,167.67

BTW - there was a set of Doug Thorley headers that went with the car when I sold it a year later.