Your car builder rapes you...what would you do?

[GRB]

Figuring this will be more muscle car oriented that lounge talk I'm guessing it goes here.

Let's say your highly trusted and highly regarded engine builder/automotive shop just absolutely took you to the cleaners and didn't even clean your nasty cloths? What would you do?

Let's say you gave this company several years, $75+ thousand dollars (not including some exotic parts you paid for out of pocket) and numerous chances to make your car drive-able. Yet they failed every time.

Let's say the first time your car was finally ready you were "informed" that you would be running $6 a gallon race gas from now on. And at that time you are shown where the tunnel in your car has been cut and hacked to make room for a needless but custom made, by them of course, part. This little hack job means water can run onto the engine from outside sources and engine fumes will enter the passenger compartment. Lots of them!

Let's say your car was left outside (w/o your knowledge) during the day and night and of course acquired the requisite scratches and sun damage.

What if after 3 attempts your speedometer, gas gauge, fan switch, rear defroster and parking brake, among other things, still did not work. You were told every single time to pick the car up because it war "ready".

What if this car got you stranded more than once? What if it stalled on you 10 times trying to get home from a car show that was 25 miles from your house? Once in the middle of one of the busiest intersections in the Southeast!! There might have been a trucker behind you that threatened to kill you too!

What if after his final attempt to "make your car normal" you were given a phony dyno sheet. And, on this final attempt you barely make it home with this ill-running horribly failed attempt at building a one-of-a-kind highly collectible muscle car.
Now, let's put the icing on the cake. What would you do if this fine upstanding citizen would not give you one single invoice for anything he did? No mfgs. warranty info, cam card, no paid invoice...nothing. Not one single invoice for parts or labor.

What would you do?

[Charley Lillard]

Hire a Attorney...

[GRB]

That's a given. An atty with automotive knowledge? That might be helpful in a complicated case like this.

[47Hammer]

Was a repair order written for this work? And was it signed by the customer(you)or ok'd each time they did work and charged you more money, proving you gave the go ahead. That sucks.

[SSJunkie68-69]

In addition to hiring an attorney ( see Bryan Shook a member here) I would also contact your local Consumer Affairs office that your local government should have as well as the Better Business Bureau and file a complaint. You might find that this business has done this to others too and then it can get real interesting.

Always ask for references and examples of the shops work before you engage them so you can see for yourself if you have never worked with them before.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Bruce Shaw Esq. has been handling cases like this all of the time. 215-657-2377.

[king_midas]

That's a horrible story, but sounds par for the course within the hobby in its present state. Vampires, low-class schiesters, good 'ol boys everywhere. Craig Jackson is the devil, wringing his hands and counting his gold with greed in his eyes the whole time-- I'm surprised Rumsfeld wasn't on stage with him.

First off, what is the duration (in time) between when you took the car from them, and now (i.e.: Recognition of all the problems)? If it has been a while, you're screwed. This is because the shop will say that "It was fine when he took the car-- I don't know what tinkering he did, but we're professionals, and when he took delivery of the car, it ran like a top." Also, regarding the engine (compression, cam), you're also screwed, because it's reasonable to assume they built what you wanted. No engine specs for them in writing means you got what you asked for.... And, if all of your mechanical issues are due to 13:1 compression and a wild cam, forget recovering damages-- Get yourself some new pistons and a cam, and be done with it. Refer to the previous as to why.

If it's recent, your problem is going to be this-- If you didn't have anything in writing, it would be verbal contracts for all of the work. In such, the contract has been executed by both parties-- The shop performed the work, and you paid for it. At best, hire an attorney, and the shop will have to make you "whole" regarding the mechanicals that are non-operable; because it's a car, it must be safe, and perform normally under the guidelines of fitment of use in the operation of a motor vehicle.

Let's say you do get run over by the trucker in the intersection. If it can be proven that it is due to a mechanical failure that is the fault of the shop, and you have documentation that the shop did the fix and that you've informed them (in writing this time...!) of the problem previous to the squishing by the truck, they are liable. Document all known problems, and have your attorney let the shop know that the car is coming back, and it's not leaving until you're to receive what you contracted and paid for. Also, there are legal limits as to how long a shop can sit on your car-- Unless you don't (or didn't) pay for the work, a shop cannot have your car for an undetermined amount of time. In other words, these guys may take the car in, and choose not to do the work because they're pissed-- That is illegal. They must finish the work in a reasonable amount of time.

The other stuff (scratches, sun damage, bad/ugly fabrication) you're going to take it in the butt on, unfortunately. In such, the only thing you can do on that is build your own website, and tell other people not to go to that shop. You've been burned by bad businesspeople-- Learn and move on, and you can hope that karma catches up to them.

You know what they say about free legal advice...

Good luck.

[ORIGLS6]

"What would you do? "

Get rid of all the new, technology-bound, gizmo-ladened vehicles and replace them with 60s & 70s REAL musclecars! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Of course, that's just my opinion. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[PeteLeathersac]

Sad tale no doubt...best of luck with whatever way things go! .
How'd this group become become the "highly trusted and highly regarded engine builder/automotive shop" to begin with? .

~ Pete

[BUIZILLA]

In Fla., the Dept of Agriculture (don't laugh) is responsible for garage keepers proficiency, legalities and consumer complaints. They have an EXTREMELY solid program here. When they bite, it leaves huge marks in the garage owners ass, up to and including shutting them down immediately, without notice, for even one single case like this, I've personally seen them do it. Find the same agency in GA, and you'll be amazed at the results, if GA operates like Fla does. When I was the Past President of the Fla Automotive Industry Assoc., we were directly responsible for this legislation.

JH

[Hank Williams Jr]

"What would you do?"

Id gather up all the paerwork I had. Any 'estimates' checks, statements. written approvals you gave him. And id make notes on as much as you can about the transaction. Any conversations, phone calls. Etcetera.

ID collect it all, and have it ready for a lawyer. Better Business Bureau, and Id talk to others in your city.

On a smaller scale my neighbour went through the same thing this summer. It was an engine though - from a 'top level' shop. They did nothing but jerk him around. When he finally rec'd it. before he could even use it - we discovered a massive crack in it.

He was able to get a very small amount of cash back from them. He decided against a lawyer b/c it wasnt worth it in his case...but it sounds like it would be in yours.

[SMGCO]

First thing you need to do is learn from it.

Secondly I'm sure during the process you knew things were not going along as they should of. As soon as you realized that things were not going well you should of stopped him and had a serious discussion. If the discussion did not work and there of been an immediate change you should of immediately removed your car from his shop. " Immediate " and " immediately " are the key words.

I've been through a similar situation a couple times. Trust me immediately removing the car is the answer. If you need a lawyer after you remove the car then you can do that but usually that is just throwing good money after bad.

[John Brown]

Ray, sounds like you found an engine builder like just Terry Pennington use to have. Every time the car went to the track it was a crap shoot on how many runs he could make before it started blowing oil. Each time he took the engine back there was a pile of "$$ tricker than trick $$" parts waiting that were promised to cure the problem. The engine builder even ground all the i.d. marks off the pistons and cam. After three years of this http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif Terry finally pulled the engine apart himself and found that the ring grooves weren't right for the special made rings, and the rings were sticking in the bottom of the grooves. How could an engine builder miss that every time he tore the engine down?? No wonder the engine was detonating and blowing oil. Bottom line was finding an engine builder that was through and competent, and not using his customers as an unpaid test bench. Good luck.

[GRB]

Thanks for your input...all of you. I'll address SS Junkie, King Midas, Pete, John and SMG's questions and observations. Keep in mind that I am doing this as a means of 'due diligence'. Having spent 30+ years in the automotive business and having fought dozens of these relatively small wars and one multi-million dollar one, I learned that 'DD' is a must and CAN NOT be overdone. That's why your opinions and questions are important to me.

I will have to reveal more about this in order for you to understand how I got to where I am, but I do want to leave a few specifics and names out because this is pending litigation and although the 'truth' is an absolute defense I don't want to start premature mud slinging unnecessarily.

I have known the man (he actually got my brand new 1970 LT1 Corvette to run great when the chev. dealer had given up) who owns this shop for more than 35 years. His reputation is absolutely untarnished and his name is highly regarded. I'm sure there are many people who belief he could walk on water! Those of you that have been here for some time already know who it is. Until this inexplicable experience (I may still be in denial) I would have trusted this man with my life!

Keep in mind that even though I have requested an invoice, which my insurance company now insists on, there was always an excuse for why it 'wasn't quiet ready yet'. The car has been in my possession for about 5 months now and I have politely requested, even faxed requests for an invoice. My phone calls are not returned even though the owner promised to mail me one after I FAXED him my request and new address!). This is irrefutable. The condition, false dyno sheet, state of repair, horrendous, amateurish tune and chronic drive-ability and other issues are also irrefutable.

For some reason this shop does not, virtually refuses, to test drive customer's cars. Seems outrageously inept to me, but that's their policy. (Or at least it was with me) When the car went back the second time, I never kept it during this period for more than a week or so, I begged them to drive the car home, test drive it or whatever it took to get it fixed. I wanted the car fixed right once and for all at this point.

Finally in desperation I suggested removing the super charger which seemed to be the root of "their" problem, although they have done many identical installs (provable) with no problem. After six months of nothing happening I suggested, since keeping "the flame lit" and tuning without absolutely perfect weather conditions seemed to be related to the SC, that we just put the car back to our original NA plan. Down the tubes went what would have been the most powerful car of it's type, magazine articles (one was printed) and a record ET for this particular class of vehicles. But, it was clear to me by this time that "they" could not make the car run with the SC installed.

BTW - this was clearly understood to be a 'cost is no object' project. There were no trick parts, short cuts or cheap parts used. And nothing experimental!

This past June the car was finally ready after several months of simply removing the SC and allegedly putting the car back to a NA C5R 427. I was given a dyno sheet that showed 620RWHP, and a dirty, excuse me, filthy car that backfired within 200 yards. By this time I had moved to Cumming which is 35 miles from the shop (rather than the previous 10 miles) so I headed home disgusted and naturally barely made it. This was when I finally began to get, let's say 'difficult to get along with from their perspective', and communications other than my weekly calls to ask for an accurate and COMPLETE invoice, stopped.

I'll add more meat to the bones as we go. Anybody barfed yet???? Wait until you hear about the epoxied 090 C5R head!!

[Hank Williams Jr]

Holy Jesus. What a mess.

[GRB]

A good example of what happens when you rely on a man's lifetime good reputation and to make it worse, have known him personally most of your life. It is bizarre.
You should know that the length of time that the build took was not a big deal to me. Of course I expressed concern when it went into it's third year but the last thing I wanted to do was rush any phase of the build and garage space, before I built a new house, was an issue.

Even more perplexing is the question of why a shop with an immaculate reputation would risk suffering immense damage to their reputation (not to mention monetary losses)and the wrath of a judge who will be blown away by the pile of FACTS!

[ss427copo]

Man...it hurts us all to hear about a "what if" story like this because some of us have been BURNED before....I know I have been; and it makes my stomach turn.. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

So whattaya do? I tryed the legal thing.....! What a joke, and a expensive one at that. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

I say your Resto-Man needs to hear about an offer he can't refuse....pick one http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r59/nhra1060sc/tn_DonProvolone.jpg
http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r59/nhra1060sc/tn_sopranos6a.jpg

Jeff http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gifx2

[Hank Williams Jr]

...(I am pretty keen for the start...(and finish) of the Sopranos this March.)

[302moz]

I AM A OWNER OF A AUTOMOTIVE REPAIR SHOP IN MICHIGAN . IF YOU DO A REPAIR OVER $20.00 DOLLARS YOU HAVE TO GIVE THE CUSTOMER A WRITTEN ESTIMATE OF THE REPAIRS NEEDED. IF YOU DO NOT GIVE THE CUSTOMER A WRITTIN ESTIMATE HE DOES NOT HAVE TO PAY FOR THE REPAIR ! THAT IS THE LAW IN MICHIGAN ,I AM SURE YOUR STATE HAS LAWS CLOSE TO THIS . TAKE THIS TO COURT AND THE CUSTOMER ALWAYS WINS, THE SHOP WILL NOT HAVE A CHANCE TO WIN . GOOD LUCK

[67 GTO]

[ QUOTE ]
For some reason this shop does not, virtually refuses, to test drive customer's cars.

[/ QUOTE ]
Might want to try and find out WHY - if there's a paper trail it might speak volumes (keep in mind that it could've been settled out of court) but if someone else has gotten burned then it's not an isolated incident?

[69LM1]

That Sucks.
Good Luck with court. Make sure you sue him before he sues you. You will in most cases be pressured to "settle" out of court. If he sues you first, then you may even have to pay him! Make sure that your lawyer is connected.

I was once screwed by my homebuilder. Turns out he was not a LA licensed contractor (400k house), screwed up my new home with a 50,000 error, and still wanted 15k to leave the job site. He sued me first, using a local lawyer. I have several "high" profile law firms as customers, in New Orleans (this new house is in the burbs). Long story short, I wound up paying him the 15,000 even though by law he was supposed to be a licensed contractor. His lawyer was a connected ambulance chaser, and the judge thought that the case should be "settled".

Don't let a little thing like facts and the truth get in the way of losing a case!

My .02, Make sure you sue him first, get a local and connected lawyer and ask for three times what you want so that you can "settle" for what is fair...........

Best of Luck,

Rich

[GRB]

SS 427 COPO, I guess my reaction to this is as inexplicable as the story itself. I can't muster the anger, or at least not for long, to want to hurt this person. I'm too disappointed and perplexed by what he has done to do anything other than what I have to do.

I'd like to just forget it but I can't live with myself knowing I've let someone maliciously steal thousands of dollars that could I could give to one of my kids, a needy person or whatever.

I'm far from perfect but I inherited a strong sense of right and wrong from my father. What was done to me was wrong. A judge will see that in no time. The defendant in this case has no excuse whatsoever. And God help him if a judge has to issue a court order to force him to finally give me an invoice.

Rich - he has no grounds to sue me. Before I sue I will have to give him a chance to make restitution. And I'm sure a judge will order binding arbitration. I now doubt he has the common sense or good judgement to do the right thing.

[Mr70]

Please keep us updated on how this turns out.
I'm sure there are others here who have gone through a similar experience,
but unwilling to follow up or talk about it now.
Maybe your results will encourage them to do so.

[GRB]

There are lessons to be learned for sure. When all is said and done maybe I'll know what they are. It almost appears that someone at this automotive shop wanted to sabotage my car. That sounds paranoid and doesn't explain the owners actions. But, there is always more to these stories than meets the eye. That's why we have discovery, subpoena, depositions and the entire legal process....to hopefully find the truth.

[Ngtflyr]

I wish you well and fully support your cause. I have found in my dealings with the justice system that it is anything but. Common Sense and what is obviously right seem to fall by the wayside. I recommend you go in armed with an expert that can outgun the opposition. Pull off the gloves and don't give the shop owner any outs based on your previous relationship. If you still plan to talk reason with him, first get the best lawyer around on retainer before he does so he can't use him against you. Do not go into a discussion threatening a lawsuit without first retaining the best legal counsel in the area.

[Hank Williams Jr]

Go talk with all of the best lawyers about the case, and 'consider' retaining them.

Then if he tries to get one of the 'best lawyers around' - they wont be able to defend him (take his case) because of their prior discussion with you.

[GRB]

Ngtflyr - The last "best in his field" atty I hired in ATL wanted a $100k retainer. This won't be that kind of case. The defendant will probably get one of his customers to represent him if we have to go to court. I will have excellent representation. Given the fact, I would hope his atty would advise him to settle and cut his losses. Again, that is what is so perplexing about this matter, he is caught red-handed with his hand in the cookie jar. There is too much proof that he and his atty would have to overcome.

I'm no atty but having spent 5 years and literally thousands of hours on an antitrust case, not to mention many other civil suits in which I have been both the plaintiff and the defendant, I would not be surprised to see a judge in this case award me all the labor I was charged plus some amount for the diminished value of the car.

In fact, this may be the reason he refuses to provide me with an invoice. We'll see what happens next within the next few weeks. Remember things can be memorialized in many more ways in this digital age than was possible just a decade ago.

Hank - Our long relationship and his name and impeccable reputation will work against him in this case. Were he some 'Johnny-come-lately' I would bitch slap myself and be done with it for being so trusting. That ain't the case!

[rich p]

Didnt you take the guy for a ride and slam some gears with him in the car ?????

Sounds like he didnt want to drive it cause they already messed it up !!

A guy down here has had three fires at his shop.I dont think they like him either. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif
It was quite funny when you drove away and come back. The guy would get real pissed and ask: What the Hell did you do to it,it ran fine before you took it !!

[GRB]

That's a possibility but makes no sense whatsoever. Maybe they knew it wouldn't run. So what did they think I was going to do with a car that wouldn't idle or run, few of the gauges worked and raw engine gas just poured into the cabin ??? Just go away and forget about the whole thing?

I think this man, considering our long relationship, hoped I would bite the bullet and take the car somewhere else and forget our goals (remember there is a short piece on this car in the April '04 Chevy Rumble).