eBay '66 L78 El'Camino

[PeteLeathersac]

Looks pretty convincing? .

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1966-El-C...1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1966-El-Camino-396-375-L78-4Sp-PROTECT-O-PLATE-Chevelle_W0QQitemZ150083892532QQihZ005QQcategoryZ6 153QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

~ Pete
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[JChlupsa]

Could be

from what I understand the SS for an El Camino was not aval until 68 but any engine size could have been ordered in 66.

[mockingbird812]

Very nice ride, good color. Did you notice how the tail gate was in the down position for the vintage drag racing photo? Every little bit helps!!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[COPO_Anders]

Mythbusters killed that myth. At least mileage was better with the tailgate in the upward position because of the turbulence it created.

[Alss]

Wow!! I remember Dooley Chevrolet from my younger years riding with Mom and the AM radio on. We cruise somerville every Friday night ion the summer..always 200 cars or better

ALbert

[69RSZ]

Al, for a minute i thought it was a laffin car, nice camino though.did Bill see it yet?

[StriperSS]

That's a pretty nice car. A friend had a 360hp 66 in that color a few years ago, but it had the doggie dish hubcaps on it. He sold it to someone in the US.
That trophy photo shows it with a set of aftermarket wheels on it. I haven't seen those for years. Does anyone remember what the brand name was? Rader comes to mind, but that may not be.
John

[AutoInsane]

Beautiful car! Great story too...

[Bill Rose]

[ QUOTE ]
Al, for a minute i thought it was a laffin car, nice camino though.did Bill see it yet?

[/ QUOTE ]
Ron... I haven't seen it, but I keep hearing about it. I'm not really into 66 Caminos, but this looks like a good one.

[Charley Lillard]

It does not state that it still has the orig engine so I asked the seller. He informed me it is all dated and stamped correctly but the orig engine is long gone. Neat truck..

[x Baldwin Motion]

Very nice ride, good color. Did you notice how the tail gate was in the down position for the vintage drag racing photo? Every little bit helps!!!!

[ QUOTE ]
Mythbusters killed that myth. At least mileage was better with the tailgate in the upward position because of the turbulence it created.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe gate is down for weight transfer?

I need to see that episode of mythbusters as I surely thought more turbulence with gate up as evidenced by the whirlwinds moving light items about in the bed. When the gate is down, things seem to stay put. I am taking a 1200 mile trip soon and was planning on leaving my tailgate home!! Whats the facts here?
Oh, by the way, cool elCamino. My first Chevy was a '67

[mockingbird812]

Noticed he was running A/Stock from the vintage pix. That surprised me. I thot that his truck would be too heavy to run that class. What was the weight of a '66 El Camino w/ an L78?

[scott s]

Anyone notice the pop imprint.. the truck was delivered on 6-16-66 and the rear was stamped on 6-22-66 ???? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[MYSTERYCHEVELLE]

Another example of the Scum that is out there!! and another example of how we must all read between the lines, ask all the questions, do our homework and not get taken in by emotion! The add says NUMBERS MATCHING... I had been in contact with seller for days, exchanging pictures and docs., etc.. and no mention about the restamped Block, though I had already concluded it was fake from the pictures.. so then when asked straight out.. yes., you get that answer!! Trans is not original either.. Rear is not original.... but oh wooppie!!! another USED TO BE car that we should all pay top $$ for.. NOT! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif Numbers Matching, the new name = Numbers Recreation like the clones out there.. I am sure some NUMBER matches another NUMBER on this car though...

[66L78ElCamino]

Anyone who asked me if the engine was the actual engine that came with the car was informed that it was not. The car is an original L78. The protect-o-plate, owners manual, and salesman`s business car has been with the car since it was new. it was ordered by Joe Corbo (name misspelled on pop as Carbo) from Dooley Brothers Chevrolet in Somerville, NJ. I can document at least 2 other owners besides Joe & myself. The car never left the area. It is not a fake as stated by mysterychevelle. If the pop decodes that the rear is dated after the delivery date, there was obviosuly a mistake made by Chevrolet. This pop is not a fake. Please. The current engine has the correct casting numbers and the pad has been restamped with the correct numbers. Again, this is an original, unrestored, L78 El Camino. The original owner, now in his late 60`s, is still living at the same address that is on the pop. He can tell anyone in detail, about how he got the car. He also had a 68 L88 Corvette that he ordered and took delivery of. He had a great sotry about how he had to go pick the car up at port. They couldnt get it started. he told them not to touch it and when he arrived, the hood was open and the windshield was black. I don`t think the L88 had a choke.

[Charley Lillard]

Thanks for posting and welcome to the site. I had bid on it and when I asked you if it was the orig. engine you were up front and told me the orig was long gone. Still a cool truck I would like to own.

[66L78ElCamino]

Thank you Charley. I advertized the car as having a numbers matching engine. i never stated that it was the original engine that came with the car. Anyone that asked me that question, was told the truth. This clown (mysterychevelle) seems to think the car is a complete fake, including the protect-o-plate. Not. He should stop the slander.

[x Baldwin Motion]

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you Charley. I advertized the car as having a numbers matching engine. i never stated that it was the original engine that came with the car. Anyone that asked me that question, was told the truth. This clown (mysterychevelle) seems to think the car is a complete fake, including the protect-o-plate. Not. He should stop the slander.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Again, this is an original, unrestored, L78 El Camino."

I don't want to get into a big deal here but what does original and unrestored mean nowadays?

webster says original is;
1: INITIAL <the original part of the house>
2 a : not secondary, derivative, or imitative <an original composition>

restored; to bring back to or put back into a former or original state.

How can something be original if it dosent have original equipment? apparently the door has closed on such simply terms and we must now say "born with" or "unchanged" or "restamped" with every description. We are now in "day 3" of the hobby with the high tech fakes that include documents, VINs and trim tags.

This is JMHO and has nothing to do with the vehicle described above, or it's description, value or originality.

Just felt like mentioning the recent rash of double talk in car ads. Thats it.

[x Baldwin Motion]

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q101/65z13/65POPbooklet.jpg

Here is another Dooley Chev POP book. This I got from the original owner with my "numbers matching born with original equipment car" It is obviously similar to the one being displayed on the ad of the vehicle mentioned above. I would not call that POP a fake. My cars trim tag, VINs and documents are also listed as correct examples on chevelles.com

[MYSTERYCHEVELLE]

So, it's a Don't ask don't tell policy http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif as I said to you in the private email .. Post under a new subject.. what does matching numbers mean? not here in this post where it will get lost.. but a new post.. after reading the replies.. if the answer is Restamped blocks that did not come in the car from the factory and correct dated parts.. I will post an open apology to you for my harsh words.

I am one of the biggest on everyone must ask questions and do their homework, but at what point does a seller have some responsibilty/integrity for supplying information up front without the don't ask, don't tell policy?? The ad witten was clever, words chosen preciseley.. Mark my words, this elky will turn up again and again over the years as an original Matching Numbers L-78 and with each sale some uneduacted buyer will pay big bucks for what he thinks is an original L-78 Block, stamped with the serial number it!

I am done, anyone who feels differently is very much entitled to his/her opinion. I will await the post on what matching numbers mean.. and I am not talking about what the Vette guys accept or don't accept in judging.. I'm talking about what the rest of the world has accepted for years!

and for the record.. I noted the POP had ERROR.. delivery date vs rear assemby date.. put that with a restamped block and one has to see some shadow of doubt about anything presented about said car..

[SuperNovaSS]

There is a numbers matching thread in the main discussion area that went on about a month ago. Very lengthy.


Jason

[mudjnky]

If the engine is restamped, that means it is a replacement engine, right? Therefore it would not be a numbers matching vehicle because it has a replacement engine, right? I am by no means an expert, but to me a numbers matching vehicle means it has the original engine, among other things. To me, restamping a block, and advertising it as original would be fraud, wouldn't it?

[66L78ElCamino]

The car is a real L78 car. The pop proves that. The original owner can tell anyone that. The casting #`s on the block/heads & date codes are correct for this particular car. The engine pad stamping has been done correctly. This is a commom practice done to cars with documentation. This is nothing compared to what people do, such as remove VIN plate or cowl tag and put on a completely different car. Ridiculous.

[AutoInsane]

66L78, welcome to the site. It is a beautiful car you have there. Although MysteryChevelle comes on a bit strong I would have to agree that if you tout a car a being numbers matching it would not be a re-stamp. It is fantastic and honest of you to tell anyone who inquired that the engine was not the original even though the car is an original L-78. But why should someone have to directly ask that question? That should be disclosed.

I guess it leaves the door open for a spector of doubt if you say numbers matching and you put them there yourself and decided only to tell anyone who asked the direct quection. It will make others wonder if the engine is not the original and you did not disclose that in your Ebay auction what else might not have been disclosed.

The facts are your car is quite rare having been built with an L-78 engine, the car is in beautiful condition and it has documentation to prove its history.

Glad to have you aboard! Good luck with the sale! Someone will be getting what appears to be a very nice car.

[Paul D]

I think the key is to represent a car as it really is. If the wordsmithing of an ad makes the prospective buyer think it is something that it is not, that is misrepresentation, or at the least a misunderstanding.

Unfortunately, in todays world of higher values and greed, the buyer needs to be very savy to avoid misrepresentation.

I think the El Camino is a neat car, just worth less money with with a stamper block, etc.

My definition of "numbers matching" is that the car has it's born with components. If it doesn't, the buyer should state numbers matching restoration (or replacement) motor.

Just my $ .02.

[mudjnky]

[ QUOTE ]
The car is a real L78 car. The pop proves that. The original owner can tell anyone that. The casting #`s on the block/heads & date codes are correct for this particular car. The engine pad stamping has been done correctly. This is a commom practice done to cars with documentation. This is nothing compared to what people do, such as remove VIN plate or cowl tag and put on a completely different car. Ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think anyone is doubting that it is an L78 car. I believe the issue is you are advertising it as a numbers matching original car and it is not. Maybe you should call it an "original L78 car with correct date coded replacement engine"

[66L78ElCamino]

I apologize for any misunderstandings. I was not trying to pass the car off as something that it is not. Yes, it is a very, very rare car.

[MYSTERYCHEVELLE]

and I apologize for coming off too strong and with such emotion... agree with most of what has been said in previous few replies.

Nice car, rich history, Not Numbers Matching.

Nuff said.

[PeteLeathersac]

It's a topic that's been well covered before but sadly in today's world, 'numbers matching' means just that...nothing about it being THE original motor. .

Reading ads these days, it's often best to forget what it says and just look for what's not said? .

My favourite is the 'correct restamp' term...what a great oxymoron! .

I think it's excellent how the seller has been up front immediately when asked and not tried to sidestep the issue...personally I'd prefer situations like this w/ the 'correct' motor but unstamped. .

~ Pete
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[mudjnky]

Is there anyway to prove that an engine has been restamped if it is not disclosed?

[Late BrakeU2]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a topic that's been well covered before but sadly in today's world, 'numbers matching' means just that...nothing about it being THE original motor. .

Reading ads these days, it's often best to forget what it says and just look for what's not said? .

My favourite is the 'correct restamp' term...what a great oxymoron! .

I think it's excellent how the seller has been up front immediately when asked and not tried to sidestep the issue...personally I'd prefer situations like this w/ the 'correct' motor but unstamped. .

~ Pete
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Muscle semantics in todays world:

Whenever I now read an ad and it contains the terms "correct" or "numbers matching" I automatically interpret them to represent a car that does not retain it's "born in " driveline http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Rixls6]

[/ QUOTE ]

Muscle semantics in todays world:

Whenever I now read an ad and it contains the terms "correct" or "numbers matching" I automatically interpret them to represent a car that does not retain it's "born in " driveline http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. We probably should all get used to looking at ads that way. A shame, but cleverly worded ads seems to be more prevalent than ever. Some are meant to mislead, others aren't.

[x Baldwin Motion]

[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]

Muscle semantics in todays world:

Whenever I now read an ad and it contains the terms "correct" or "numbers matching" I automatically interpret them to represent a car that does not retain it's "born in " driveline http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. We probably should all get used to looking at ads that way. A shame, but cleverly worded ads seems to be more prevalent than ever. Some are meant to mislead, others aren't.

[/ QUOTE ]

and original unrestored means at least one paint job after it left the factory but the color corresponds to the trim tag on the car which is not illeagal to replace. got it.

[mudjnky]

Does that mean that survivor is going to translate to older restoration?

[Bill Rose]

I don't think Mike Crown came on too strong at all. When I originally read the ad, I certainly thought the seller was saying it's a matching number motor, meaning, original motor. With the lengthly description of the car, all it would take is one short line saying non original engine. The ad could have been edited as well, and never was. I can only think of one reason to re-stamp a block, and thats to pass the car off as an original motor car. Otherwise, after the block was decked, it would have been left blank.
Even if the seller isn't trying to be deceptive, how about the next time the car is sold, and the time after that. Man you really have to be careful these days.

[x Baldwin Motion]

[ QUOTE ]
Does that mean that survivor is going to translate to older restoration?

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[x Baldwin Motion]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think Mike Crown came on too strong at all. When I originally read the ad, I certainly thought the seller was saying it's a matching number motor, meaning, original motor. With the lengthly description of the car, all it would take is one short line saying non original engine. The ad could have been edited as well, and never was. I can only think of one reason to re-stamp a block, and thats to pass the car off as an original motor car. Otherwise, after the block was decked, it would have been left blank.
Even if the seller isn't trying to be deceptive, how about the next time the car is sold, and the time after that. Man you really have to be careful these days.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that sums it up right here, if you stamp a deck with a different VIN it is deceptive, period. Lets move on.

[chevjon396]

Bill Rose and Mike Crown are both dead on correct in what they have posted here about real "original" cars. The sellers out there who dance around with words like "matching numbers" know that the readers are going to be impressed with the thought that the car has its factory/assembly line original parts. The more this kind of stuff happens and is glossed over the more it will negatively effect true ligit cars. Wrong is wrong and a knowing non-disclosure is wrong in any trade or hobby.
jon haislip

[Hank Williams Jr]

That was a pretty nice El Cam though. I hope it does find a happy home, one where the owner knows its true history, and appreciates it anyway. (I know I would!!)

[BBIGG BLOCK 396]

Well Hank you should buy that El Camino,you could tote your guitar in the back!I can see you smiling from ear to ear now.

[ANDY M]

Car sold for $33,433. Bidder7. Reserve lowered, game over.
Good luck to the new owner. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Can-I-Have-It.gif

[TimG]

I'm afraid that numbers matching no longer means original engine or original stamp. It may mean that, but in my opinion all it means is that the ID derivative on the block matches part of the vehicle ID number. It's just the first part of the equation to determine if it is the original engine the car came with. I no longer get wound up if someone with a "restoration motor" in a car tells me that it is numbers matching, in fact, I expect that statement. Now I have the first of about three questions answered that pertain to the originality of the engine. Numbers matching no longer is an absolute and I don't think that someone that states numbers matching for a known restoration motor is being dishonest. I will add that if I had a restoration motor in a car, I wouldn't refer to it as numbers matching, but a restoration motor.

[PeteLeathersac]

Nothing personal Tim as I love 'Vettes and understand how this whole Chevy numbers things has really evolved from the 'Vette collectors and judging groups, BUT...personally I still have a problem with ANY restamp. .

Couple questions...Is a 'restoration motor' ever an original born with motor or always a correct castings/dates motor with a 'perfect' rebroach and restamp? .
And are 'restoration trim tags' Ok in the 'Vette world yet...seriously?http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif.

Again, personally I'd prefer a replacement motor be as correct as possible with castings, dates, suffix correct too if possible, BUT...left alone as far as broaching/stamping goes! .

~ Pete
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[TimG]

Pete,

I prefer to stay away from "stampers" although they do bring serious money in the right car if the car has paperwork. There are lots of original engine cars out there and I'd rather just have a car with the original engine and original stamp. There are cars out there that have an over the counter long block with a correct Tonawanda assembly stamp on it. The broach is correct as is the assembly stamp. Some folks have "stamped" the correct ID number on these blocks and they look great. I'll tell you one thing, in the Corvette world a few phone calls will give you the answer on if it is the original engine when in doubt. Trim tags are impossible to reproduce and have pass NCRS/Bloomington judging. The option is to take a trim tag that's been removed and place it on another car, this can be done without being detectible. Again, paperwork, original engine and owner history are all ways to help protect the value of a vehicle you purchase.

[PeteLeathersac]

Thanks for the follow up Tim! .

All personal opinions here...

I'm very interested but not in agreement with the way things have 'progressed' in the 'Vette world and feel badly that without debate and prevention now, these same 'systems' ultimately will land here with the rest of the Chevy hobby...and others. .

Again I really do appreciate your comments but can't agree that any restamps 'look great' nor condone tag-dancing or other changes whether 'detectible' or not. .

Being necessary to call someone 'in the circle' to know if parts really are original to the car or not kind've stinks too...sorry? .

Again, thanks for your sharing your knowledge of the 'Vette world but I just can't help but feel that cars with 'restoration motors' and other changes will eventually slip through the cracks and with time be considered as THE original parts...even more so if these same practises are taken up by the more common-man Chevys etc? .

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
~ Pete

[kwhizz]

When I did my Gold car two years ago......The Shop I got my Block from, on a weekly average was rebroaching and restamping 5 Blocks a week..........Makes you sort of wonder.......5 x 52 x 2= Lot's of Numbers Matching out there......

Ken

[47Hammer]

Actually the guy that bought my '70 Z 28 said he was going to have the pad stamped as well as the new M 21 he had just bought so everything would match. Scary.

[scott s]

hope bidder #7 know what he is getting??I was told he was wireing 35k for the car site unseen.. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[mudjnky]

[ QUOTE ]
hope bidder #7 know what he is getting??I was told he was wireing 35k for the car site unseen.. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It is beyond me how anyone can spend any amount of money without seeing the vehicle. I've reached the point where I won't give a seller more than a fair deposit (as little as possible) and the balance in cash when its ready to go on the trailer. I'd rather lose a deposit than get stuck with a bad deal.

[agtw31]

5 years ago,i bought a 69 cutlass off ebay that was 2000 miles away.
of course,when i got it,it had a busted frame.

but,the seller didn't realize this cutlass was a 1 of 100 Post W-31's made in 1969.

that was dumb luck.
never again