A different Point of View ....

[SSJunkie68-69]

A friend of mine sent me this article this morning. It's an interesting read and gets into some detail that just is not being discussed in the main stream media. Kind of ironic too, as today is the first day in a long long while where I read in the printed and electronic media a body count of insurgents and not US or allied soliders...

Here's the article:

June 12, 2007
The Democrats' Betrayal
By James Lewis

The Democrats and their media poodles have proudly and publicly sabotaged the Iraq War effort since the beginning. This is not just a guess, but a clear and visible fact, openly celebrated by the Left.


The Left ululates noisily over every American death --- though not over the thousands of innocent civilians who are regularly blown up by Al Qaida in Iraq. But they never bother to ask, "What was that US Soldier risking his life for?" They don't want us to be reminded. They want us to think US Soldiers are fools.


Well, Soldiers tend to fight for their buddies. But they also know a lot more about war aims on the ground. And their own experience with Iraqis is repeatedly expressed in George W. Bush's terms: We are fighting to liberate Iraq, to protect ourselves from the murderous zealots of Al Qaida and Iran, and to extend simple decency to a region that has known nothing but bloody pathology for centuries.


Are we fighting for oil? Oil is the key to the well-being of five billion people in the modern world. Are we protecting Israel? Yes indeed, Israel and Egypt, Saudi Arabia and ungrateful Europe, America and Japan (which is almost entirely dependent on foreign oil). Those are the vital interests of civilized countries today. All those aims are entirely consistent with mainstream American foreign policy since Teddy Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson, FDR, Truman and Eisenhower, Kennedy and Johnson, Nixon (yes!) and Reagan.


It is only the Boomer Left that decided in its greater wisdom that the United States can let the world go to hell by itself. The Boomer Lefties are the disgraceful exception to the American rule, while the Soldiers who are fighting and sacrificing in Iraq are solidly in our historical mainstream. We should all be endlessly grateful for that.


Senator John Edwards has been accusing Rudy Giuliani of "playing on our fears" in talking about the terrorist threat.


Let's see, six years ago Mayor Giuliani saw the mighty World Trade Towers come crashing down in his city. "Only" three thousand innocent New Yorkers died in that assault, but the towers were filled with tens of thousands who just managed to get out --- thanks to the heroism of NYC firefighters and police, almost 500 of whom gave their lives.


I would call that a terrifying event, Senator Edwards, and Rudy Giuliani was directing the city's response from the front line.


We know that Al Qaida fanatics keep trying to make it happen again. But John' Edwards thinks it's all lies; he's airbrushed his version of American history, just like he constantly tries to airbrush his own public image. Edwards thinks that global warming and the plight of the poor are the really big dangers facing Americans. But it is Senator Edwards himself who is the cynical fearmonger. He constantly tries to fill every sucker in America with fear that they are helpless without him and his fellow Democrats. This in the wealthiest nation on earth, and the one with the greatest opportunities for people to rise out of poverty. That is why millions of people aspire to come here.


The Left constantly attempts to evade the clear and present danger facing us today, for fear that Americans will elect the other party. They are therefore terrifyingly selfish at a time of national danger. They delusionally want to go back to the Clinton years, when terrorism seemed only a distant rumor, at least to the blind and ignorant.


But Islamic fascists may not play along with that flimsy fantasy. In fact, Al Qaida is cheering on the willful stupidity of our leftwingers, promising to renew their attacks on the United States as soon as Democrats accept defeat in Iraq.


The question is whether the voters will be seduced by the Left and its media poodles. The illusion of safety is always tempting, and the very success of Bush's anti-terror policies creates a temporary paradise for fools.


Today, the two parties present a clear survival choice. On the GOP side all the candidates are adults. They deal with the facts, each in his own way, but every one with a solid record of competence and strength. Fred Thompson, Rudi Giuliani, Mitt Romney, the others. Republicans can complain (rightly) about a lot of things, but not about the general competence of our candidates. They stand head and shoulders above the Kids of the Left.


Obama and Hillary bring us only political gimmicks in a time when we need competence, character and strength. Neither one of them would be a political star but for their victim status: Hillary represents all the jilted women of America, and Obama has stooped to openly trying to whip up black anger to assure the Left that he is "really black."


The Bush Administration has wrestled faithfully with the immense challenges of a new kind of war against a lethal enemy, while being constantly sabotaged by bunkered Federal bureaucracies, the sniping Left and the media. In the upshot, President Bush has been about as successful as Harry S Truman was at the beginning of the Cold War. That is vital progress, but much remains to be done. Wars are always full of mistakes and close calls. The question is --- will we recognize and fix them? Do we have the dogged persistence to pursue our aims and win?


The next president will have to be damned good to keep the United States safe. There is no question that we can triumph in Iraq. The only doubt is whether we are sufficiently committed, at yet another supreme moment of testing -- and that comes down to inspirational leadership. We need another Great Communicator as president.


For great nations there are no easy breaks. There is no lasting "peace dividend." It's just one challenge after another. If we get tired of winning struggles, there are plenty of malevolent forces in the world that are ready to bring us down. Everybody guns for the top dog.


Robert MacFarlane just wrote in the Wall Street Journal about his Vietnam experience:


"The question remains ...: Should the Iraqis succeed in this crucial endeavor, how will it be reported? For the press this is yet another moment of truth. Will it continue to publish a distorted picture of this war as it did in Vietnam, and share responsibility for the same result? "


Well, we know the answer. The press and the Left are committed to defeat. But they no longer control the narrative. People like Michael Yon are instantly accessible The truth is out there for Americans to know.


So it all comes back to the Democrats, their running poodles in the media, and our vital need to capture the narrative of our time.


The election of 2008 will be the biggest test of our maturity as a nation since the 1950s. The question will be whether the USA can face difficult and dangerous facts, and lead the world in a better direction. As the world slowly comes around to our perception of the terror threat, with the election of Nicolas Sarkozy in France and Angela Merkel in Germany, we need to drive consistently forward until today's monsters are defeated. It's as simple as that, and as challenging. Will we have the guts and the vision to do it?


We don't know the answer. Look to 2008 to find out. Let no one forget what is at stake



PS. Heard a rumor Michael Moore is going to be at the Camaro Nationals this weekend to scold each of us for contributing to the Greenhouse effect.

[Johnny Horsepower]

Amen, could we please hear for once, about the schools, power, roads, infrastructure and dignity that our boys are restoring.

I can't stand the left and bedroom pals the mainstream media.

[GRB]

The world was a far safer place 50 years ago at which time the far left got control of the major media and public education. There was no terrorism to speak of and no nuclear N.Korea or Iran. China was docile and Russia was within a decade or so of being neutralized. Our media had not yet incited the rest of the world to hate America. We were respected if for no other reason than our economic and military power. And the relatively weak UN had yet to gain power and turn against us. Since the 60's our enemies have found our soft under belly. We have no stomach for war. We will cut and run after fighting a disgraceful PC war.

Forgotten is our collapsing Social Security system. Add to that 10, 20 or 30 million new members of the non-working class and what will become of our nation? How will we maintain a sufficient military to ward off hostile nations? How will we fund a failing SS sys., increased and bloated govt. medical care and a welfare state that is much larger than the working class?

All of which begs the question; Why is amnesty for tens of millions of illegal immigrants, that are likely to bankrupt our nation, a bilateral agenda and worse yet being shoved down our rebelling throats by a Republican president? Why?

[Xplantdad]

Word for the day.....

Ululate- ul·u·late
Pronunciation[uhl-yuh-leyt
–verb (used without object), -lat·ed, -lat·ing
1. to howl, as a dog or a wolf; hoot, as an owl.

2. to utter howling sounds, as in shrill, wordless lamentation; wail.

3. to lament loudly and shrilly.

I've never heard of this word before http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

[SSJunkie68-69]

See.....this site is more than just about cars!!!!

There will be much ululating on July 27 and 28th in Collinsville http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[Kim_Howie]

"GOD BLESS AMERICA" Can I still say that??? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Mr70]

I find your theories intriguing and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[Kim_Howie]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[SSJunkie68-69]

Here you go mr70 and to all others looking for a different point of view.

http://www.americanthinker.com/

[x Baldwin Motion]

The Democrats and their media poodles ?
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q101/65z13/deskneat06.jpg
my poodle is offended

[427TJ]

Hmmm, should I take the bait or pass on this one? Okay, I'll man-up and add my two cents.

Liberal media. Yeah, there's liberals in the media--that idiot Dan Rather comes to mind and his predecessor Walter Cronkite was too, but Cronkite was a Franklin Roosevelt liberal and not a Janis Joplin/hairy-armpits/stinky '60s San Francisco hippie liberal (who wants to take all of our wealth and give it to poor non-white people). Anyway, the New York Times is certainly left-leaning but wasn't it their own Judith Miller who sounded the war alarms on the NYT front pages in late 2002 and early 2003? Scooter Libby schmoozed her and wooed her and then fed her the "inside info" and she, being AMBITIOUS and DESPERATE to further her career (remember that), plastered the NYT front page day after day with the coming doom unless we attacked Saddam. So, the liberal New York Times got in lock-step with the administration and helped sell the idea of pre-emptive war with Iraq. But I see your point. Let's just assume that the liberal media is only as liberal as it's corporate ownership allows it to be . When it's safe to be liberal, like now that the war is dragging on and on and on with little real progress*, they will go against an unpopular president. But that's the media's natural pack-mentality: they all follow the same story since none of them want to be left behind if it's a big one. Here's where a media reporter's ambition comes into play. Reporters like Miller want to get rich and famous (like Bob Woodward, et al) and they'll jump on any scoop they can get their ambitious back-stabbing greedy little hands on. Judy Miller realized that Libby was inviting her into the Bush administration inner sanctum and she took the bait. She was greedy and ambitious, not liberal. She saw her chance and went for it. In 2003 the liberal media dared not stand in the way of the war drummers so Judith Miller was allowed by NYT corporate managers to post her dire warnings of Iraqi mushroom clouds over New York City. Yeah, she went to jail over it and so will Libby but the liberal media collapsed under the pressure of the beating war drums and the clamoring public who wanted to go kick someone's ass big-time after 9/11.

*War progress. Yes, I am sure there are schools being built and little Iraqi kids singing the star-spangled banner every morning but the Iraqi government is completely unable to come to terms with what they need to do to save that country. Bush can push on them all he wants to but those tribal Iraqis know damn-well that they are all marked men and dare not stick their necks out too far lest they get their heads cut-off by their Muslim brothers. (We do that in America too but we don't actually cut people's heads off--we sick special prosecutors on them.) That part of the world has always been run by tribal factions (us too in a sense) and not central governments and trying to whip a little democracy (small-d democracy) on them will only allow them to elect their own tribesmen. Look at Lebanon--they held elections in 2005 and they democratically elected Hezbollah! Ooops! That's not what we meant when we said we wanted a democratic Middle East! OH SH*T! We pushed them toward democracy and they elected the the terrorists! Too bad nobody stood up and warned us of the folly of trying to convert ancient and deeply religious fundamentalist Arab Islamic tribes into embracing democracy and embracing their fellow Arab tribes. Well, Colin Powell made a half-hearted attempt to warn Bush not to "break" Iraq but Powell didn't have the balls to resign because America was frothing at the lips to go kill some Arabs so he shut his mouth after one weak warning not to do this. And the American army is mired right in the middle because that's where the oil is! How many times has President Bush changed his rationale (reasons) for going into Iraq? Is that the liberal media's fault or is that Bush's fault?

Guess what? We are in Iraq for 50 years. As long as there's extractable oil in the ground we will be there and our kids will die there. F_ck the politics of this, we are there for the LONG haul. Our little sons and daughters, many of them not yet born, will go there and die for the rest of us, just as young people always have.

Yeah, we can rant about the media, both liberal (controls everything--yeah, sure it does) and FOX/right-wing media. You know what? It's really not the media's fault, although they always share the blame, it's OUR fault for sitting on the couch and flipping away from the news--FOX or CNN or whatever you like--to watch baseball or Barrett-Jackson or Survivor. (I prefer baseball with B-J a close second.) We're in deep, deep sh*t in the Middle East and the media will report the failures because that's what the ratings dictate--we want to see the bad news, not good news. "If it bleeds it leads" is the media manager/editor's motto because we love the bloody stuff. Some of us don't but most of us do.

Last thing before I go out and drive deck screws in my new back deck. (The Home Depot plastic Trek stuff. It looks great.)

Our next president will not pull us out of Iraq. I'll say that again. Our next president will not pull us out of Iraq. Americans may be 70% against the war in polls but they are 99% FOR affordable gasoline. Our next president will not pull us out of Iraq because the price of gas will go well over $5 a gallon and maybe much higher. Talk about committing suicide. No president will commit suicide by allowing the price of gas to go wildly out of control upon a pullout of Iraq. We built 14 PERMANENT BASES in Iraq since we went in and we are there for the "long hard slog," as Don Rumsfeld put it.

Relax, the media really doesn't control things, especially if we Americans aren't watching or reading anything they are putting out.

Now I'm going to go drive-in a hundred deck screws and then go for a ride in my Camaro and put some Trick pump 101 in it at the 76 station. Yeah, it's $6.25 a gallon but I don't care as long as I can just pull up to the pump and put it in.

All of this is just my two cents and I could be wrong.

[Kim_Howie]

Bill, I take it you don't think we need to be in Iraq? Why?

[agtw31]

427TJ,i agree with everything you said,except to watch the news,that's just snippets of non-info.

[427TJ]

[ QUOTE ]
Bill, I take it you don't think we need to be in Iraq? Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because Muslim men will never let us take their oil without a long, bloody fight for it. We should have just bought it from them the way we do from the Saudis. We could have dealt with Saddam differently than we did. Yes, there have been long-standing war plans to invade and secure the Middle East oil fields but they are a last-chance deal, much the same way that Mutually-Assured Destruction was a war plan during the Cold War. Yes, we could have nuked the Soviets and that was (probably still is a war plan inside a Pentagon computer for that one) always an option--a last-chance option, not a pre-emptive war option. We had Saddam so boxed-in he couldn't take a dump without an AWACS plane or spy satellite knowing he was in the crapper but we got greedy and let the war drums beat us into a hysteria and the oil men probably pushed Bush to go for it. I think the oil men resent dealing with Arabs and decided to finally go in and show them who's the boss and just take the oil--f_ck'em. Well, they seem to be fighting us for it. Yes, al Queda is a big problem for America and those bastards need killing but there isn't one informed person on earth who doesn't clearly see that we knocked-off Saddam to get his oil (before China went in there and bought it from him), we just don't talk about it in polite company. (Now China is deep into African oil drilling and they're having problems with African nationalist rebels so we're not alone in having our people die for oil.)

Don't make the mistake of assuming that I think we should coddle terrorists. We should kill them and hastily. The sight of B-52 contrails over Afghanistan during the post 9/11 Tora Bora fight brought tears to my eyes as a former USAF aircrew member with Gulf War experience. Those mother------s were scared s-itless in those caves because America was responding WITH RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION to the horrific 9/11 attacks and killing the f---ers who did it and I think the Middle East respected our al Queda Afghanistan fight--for the most part. Punch us and we'll kill you--they sure as hell understand that and have for centuries. But we should have kept Saddam pinned to the rug and bought his oil from him rather than steal it, which is how all Muslim men see it now.

If Muslim men invaded America to take over our forests for the wood we would ALL take up arms and kill all of them as fast as we could. Good thing we don't have real gun control because we'll cut down any invading army on the shores or wherever they've landed. That's what Muslim men are doing in Iraq.

Again, that's just how it looks to me and I could have it all wrong.

Note on Saddam the terrible dictator who killed his own people. The Chinese government killed a few thousand pro-democracy Chinese in the Tienanman Square massacre in 1989 and America barely made a peep. Our software companies even today help the Communist Chinese government seek-out and identify dissident Chinese pro-America writers on the Internet and the government kills them. So why don't we topple the evil Communist Chinese government and free the oppressed people?

1. Because China has nukes and several million soldiers in their armed forces. (They might be able to kick our ass right off the Asian continent in a conventional fight.)

2. They are our business partner now. (This might be better placed as reason number 1.) (I thought Communism was bad?)

3. They ain't got no oil.

Saddam was weak and easy to knock over and we all cheered. Now we look like assholes for doing so and our reasoning falls flat on most of the world. We look like the bully and Saddam went to his hanging with his head held high, which actually made Muslim men feel proud of his courage and honor as he went to the gallows like a man. He didn't scream, he didn't fight, he knew this would come and he took it like a man. Saddam was a bad, bad guy but we knocked him over because it was easy and America needed an easy victory--politically--to help us feel better for looking weak, lazy, and unprepared on 9/11. The aftermath, as we see day after day in Iraq, is not so easy is it?

[SSJunkie68-69]

Bill, first thanks for your service to our country. My Dad is an ex USAF pilot.

The one point I have to disagree with you on is the Oil issue. Everyone who is critical of the war can easily place the blame on the US for wanting to get our hands on the oil and, for me, that couldn't be further from the truth. National Geographic ran a special a week or so ago on their channel that was all about Saddam. The man was a brutal dictator who knew nothing about human rights. The country he created was based on fear. He had family members spying and reporting on other family members. If you said anything bad about him, a crew of his thugs were sent to your home or work and you were picked up, taken to cell and beaten mercilessly. If your voice of opposition was loud enough and you really ticked him off you or your family members were picked up and never to be heard from again. How do we know this, because Saddam had video tape shot of the beatings, dismemberment or death and made sure everyone associated with you saw them. His idea was to control the populace by fear and oppression. It worked for a long long time.

The day Saddam took power of the Bath Party, there was a meeting held of all party members. There was 300-400 people there. In his speech, he called the names of 66 party members and asked them to stand up. Once they did, they were all escorted out of the meeting and were called traitors. He then proceeded to execute each of them, right outside of the meeting hall. For those remaining, it showed them what Saddam was capable of doing. Word spread fast, oppose Saddam and you will be killed.

Remember he was in a war with Iran? He lost that war and countless soldiers. His much highly regarded army return to Iraq defeated, humbled and humiliated. His country was once cash rich but now cash poor so what does he decide to do, invade Kuwait which brought you, Bill, into his conflict. We all know what happened next thanks to your efforts and the efforts of hundreds of thousands brave members of the Armed Forces of the US and allied powers.

The US urged people of Iraq to overthrow Saddam. The time was right and we knew we were not moving into Bagdad at that time so we did our best to convince the people of Iraq to over throw and topple his regime. Well, once Saddam saw what was going to happen, he went after his own people in the North and the South with quite a bloody vengeance, hence the no fly zones. Saddam and his regime could only operate in the central part of the country but the fear and intimidation tactics used for many years before still quitted a very upset and troubled populace. Any attempt to over throw him was now gone because the people were too afraid and no one in the outside world, including the US, would take part and help support the people trying to win their country back. Thousands upon thousands of people died.

Then there is the whole issue of the violations of the Surrender Treaty from the first Gulf War he signed as well as the whole fiasco with the UN Weapons inspectors. He had weapons he was not supposed to have. There is no mistake about that. You don't hear about that in the news but HE DID HAVE WEAPONS he was not supposed to have. He continued to turn his nose to the UN and prevent the weapons inspectors from doing their jobs. He played a game of pokers Bluff and it back fired on him. Can you honestly tell me that each time he refused these people to do their job that any of us thought he did not have something he did not want us to see or know about.

At the time Saddam was ousted from power, well over 300,000 of his countrymen were brutally killed because they opposed him. It was men, women and yes children. He wiped out 4000 Kurdish villages in the north alone. Entire villages that had been around for centuries were wiped out and the land left ruined so no one could farm it. His military exploits cost him another 800K to 1 million of his country's men.

I am sorry sir, but with all due respect this war is not about oil. This war is about removing terrorist threats so we don't have another 911. Saddam was a terrorist. He turned brutally on his own people. He vowed his hatred of the US repeatedly and praised Osama for what he was able to inflict on the US. Many peoples families, in his country and outside of it, lost family members, or had family members raped and tortured because of his actions. The man was a coward and his own people will remember him for what he did to them. Sure some people might view him as a martyr, much like some people still think Hitler was right, but those are the people we need to remove from this land and send them to hell where they belong. So many people really don't know the whole story and when they are told, they look at things in a different light. That's the reason I wanted to share the article I received this morning. I, for one, am sick and tired of hearing nothing but negative crap being spewed out by the media.......if it bleeds it leads.....that approach has to stop. During WWII how many times did you get a daily body count. How many times did people openly criticize the government for the handling of the war. If WWII happened today and Britain was getting bombed like they did back then, how many people would say this is a war we can't win? I am sure there were people who at the time might of advocated that but as history will show they were wrong. In 50 years when we all are geezers, I am sure the events of today will be looked on in a much different light than what we are seeing currently. We see a daily body count of the soldiers who die in Iraq but hundreds of people die across the US each day as victims of violence. We have a "war" on crime here in the US but how often do you see the body count of those people whose life was taken away from them in South Central LA, New York, Dallas, Miami, DC or any other city or town in the US?

War is something I have never personally experienced other than speaking to my family members and relatives who were in it. My Dad was a SAC pilot in USAF during the Cold War and took off from the flight deck with a nuclear bomb in the bomb bays. To this day he will never forget the feeling of flying around with that bomb on board knowing the destruction it was capable of producing. War is something I have studied. War is not pretty. War is brutal. Innocent people die in wars. Soldiers die in wars. Families are for ever effected by war. In a perfect world we would be free of all wars but this is not a perfect world is it? Wars happen and people die, that is fact. War should avoided as much as possible but we did not start this. We need to finish it though and thank each and every person for doing what they are doing or have done. For those who have been injured and those who gave the ultimate sacrifice, I offer my gratitude and my appreciation for what you have done. I will never forget it and as long as I am around I will make certain it is never forgotten.

[nuch_ss396]

[quote... The Chinese government killed a few thousand pro-democracy Chinese in the Tienanman Square massacre in 1989 and America barely made a peep. Our software companies even today help the Communist Chinese government seek-out and identify dissident Chinese pro-America writers on the Internet and the government kills them. So why don't we topple the evil Communist Chinese government and free the oppressed people?

1. Because China has nukes and several million soldiers in their armed forces. (They might be able to kick our ass right off the Asian continent in a conventional fight.)

2. They are our business partner now. (This might be better placed as reason number 1.) (I thought Communism was bad?)

3. They ain't got no oil.....

[/ QUOTE ]

Bill,

The Chinese manace is another very real problem we are
facing as a nation. Unfair labor practices are killing
the American workers dream. We simply can't compete with
a $2.00 per day ( whatever it actually is http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif ) labor rate.
Some fine day we will realize this and stop going to
Walmart for items. Perhaps too late though.....
This country was built on a manufacturing base, not
a service provider base.

Sooner or later, we will zoom in on the Chinese too. But
you are right, they've got us beat via. attrition alone. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif
However, this is another argument for another day. Let's
focus on this one for now.......

Steve

[427TJ]

[ QUOTE ]
I am sorry sir, but with all due respect this war is not about oil. This war is about removing terrorist threats so we don't have another 911. Saddam was a terrorist.

[/ QUOTE ]

Respectfully Tom, and thank you for your thoughtful writing, this war is most assuredly about oil and we'll just have to disagree on that point. And rule by fear? Saddam sure as hell did it but so has the Bush administration. Terror this, terror that, "mushroom clouds." As for "The War on Terror," how will we know we've won? No more terror? The "War on Drugs" = no more drugs? "The War on Poverty" = no more poverty?

I said in my earlier post that Saddam was a bad guy and we all agree on that. He was clearly a terrorist to his own people. A cynic would point out that Saddam knew how to run a country in that part of the world--by brutal repression, fear, and ruthless bloodshed. But, just as Republicans dislike and distrust Democrats, Saddam was very wary of people like bin Laden and the Islamic fundamentalists in Iran and elsewhere (how's that for a comparison). As you point out, he went to war with the fundamentalist Iranian regime for ten years in the '80s (back when Saddam was our buddy). Saddam probably thought of bin Laden much the same way that Dale Earnhart fans think of Jeff Gordon or Rush Limbaugh fans think of Michael Moore. (Similar-looking American men would kill one another given the opportunity! Just joking there to make my point.) Saddam was smart enough to keep an eye on people like bin Laden but he wanted nothing to do with his kind of radical Jihad. Saddam was 100% for the preservation of Saddam and nothing else. If Saddam paid money to families for having their members blow themselves up in suicide attacks, then that was for Saddam's own purposes and not for the greater Jihad against the west. Saddam made a mistake when he went against Kuwait in 1990 and he thus opened the door to a future take-over of his country by America. Had Saddam played his cards smarter after 1991, or even before, he would probably still be in power and selling us all the oil we could consume and he might even be our ally in the Middle East, as he was in a way in the 1980s.

Saddam, one could argue, could be seen as a victim of 9/11 and our thirst for revenge and for oil. The Bush administration was faced with an almost impossible political problem after 9/11 and faced an enemy, al Queda, which was not a uniform-wearing standing army in a geographically defined country where we could just go bomb the s-hit out of the place and score an easy and popular victory, although the Tora Bora campaign was working well until we ran over to Iraq to have our revenge orgy there--and thus let bin Laden go. Saddam became a target on 9/11 (maybe the day Bush took office if you believe that crowd) because the United States had a political problem and has an almost unquenchable thirst for oil.

Saddam's gone and his victims have been avenged but at what price to the rest of us? Again, by your rationale we should go into China and knock-off that repressive government and then North Korea and knock-off that fat bastard, and then...and then....and then... I guess we're going to need that military draft after all.

[69LM1]

Bill brings up some good points. I am a republican, also a gulf war vet, and voted for bush both times. BUT, anyone with half a brain can see that there are some obvious issues first, with George W, and secondly with this war.
The problem is that alot of us cannot see further than our affiliations, for the same fear of being wrong that we attrib to the news media.

Let's take a simple, but relevent example. If I come on here or another chevy oriented board and start talking about the 67 GTA Mustang Cvt that we have, everyone wants to give us a hard time, some joking, some more serious! If I go to a mustang board where I have my 05Gt at, and show some pics of the 69 Hugger X66 car, they get up in arms. Why? Both sites are into cool cars. Both sites are into helping others with those cars. Let's face it, the mustang is the ONLY muscle car on the market and has been since 05. And it KILLS many of us to admit it, and the ford guys love it. Same point here.

Trust me, we will NEVER get ANY middle east country to be a successful democracy, at least in out lifetime. Bill brought up a good point with Lebanon, and I will add Palestine where they elected Hamas into control of parlament. That turned out real well, right? They will always be tribal. They only way we can force peace on <insert ME county here> will be as a brutal dictator. Period. Unless we are willing to do that, then we ought to get out. Saddam is gone, we rebuilt your schools and marshes (when we have not for New Orleans and the marsh land of Louisiana, but that's a different story), now govern yourselves or not!
Secondly, the world is full of tyrants: castro, chavez, warlords in Somalia. In fact, if we are strictly looking at human suffering, then Somalia is in much more trouble than Iraq, and that whole region is turning more and more to the muslim faith everyday.

We simply cannot force the world to be nice, and we can't buy their actions into civilized society. Furthermore, do we even have the right to demand that countries like Iraq be democratic, when we are more socialist than democratic as a country?

I am with Bill, if you are going to attack this country, we need to strike, hard and fast. Even Nukes should be an option. It works for Israel. They target the leaders, in their homes, with their children. Cold, yes. Hard, yes. But it is the only thing they understand.

Do you think that we would ever as a country, in this day and age, even consider an atomic bomb like Heroshima? I really don't think we have it in us.

Finally, before you PM me about how I am a republican turncoat, remember how you felt when the democrats defended Bill Clinton no matter what, how stupid they looked? That's how you look as a republican when you defend George Bush when he is wrong. The only winners in his administration is Big Business.

So, love the chevy guy that drives a mustang, and admit the new camaro looks like crap. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Group Hug...............

Rich

[427TJ]

[ QUOTE ]
The Chinese manace is another very real problem we are facing as a nation. Unfair labor practices are killing
the American workers dream. We simply can't compete with $2.00 per day

[/ QUOTE ]

The Chinese often lure workers in and then don't pay them. If the workers complain their lives could be in danger so they either keep working or walk away quietly. Roughly $160 a month is a typical wage for workers in China's new factories and there is NO protection whatsoever nor is there time off or adequate rest between shifts. American business looks at that and just drools uncontrollably.

American business has climbed into bed with Communist China and our political leaders are in bed with business for election campaign contribution money* so American workers will be the losers. I'm afraid America will never have the inclination to take on China because we love their near-slave labor and Communist dictatorship government that keeps the workers on the job basically at gunpoint.

*Our system now works like this: If you want to be elected to high office you have to court corporate money. If a corporation is going to fund your election then the payback is corporate tax cuts and tax cuts for the rich (corporate leaders). Therefore, the American wage earner/tax payer shall be the big loser.

Mexican illegal immigration into this country figures into this too, as you might imagine. American workers have gotten too expensive as the global economy heats up and fences come down. Too expensive to provide health care to also! (Oh yeah, that discussion!)

I admit it, I really screwed up when I didn't get rich! Rats! Maybe I'll be like the writer Hunter S. Thompson who kept a loaded .45 in the drawer for the day when he would end it. He got an uncurable illness that was slowly taking his life so he put the .45 in his mouth and that was that. Thompson didn't have to sell everything he owned to stay alive either. An HMO CEO would call that a cost-effective solution.

[427TJ]

Well said Rich. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[Kim_Howie]

I think we should bomb all WALLY WORLDS!!! Way to China for me!!!

Corp. America didn't get in bed with china, America slept with china. We all wanted cheap items. Well you have them now at the expense of losing alot of manufacters in this country. Thanks to NAFTA. I see china is building 300,000,000.00 pick-up plant in Mexico. Thanks to NAFTA they will come in the USA duty free. Wow what a deal!!! SCREWED AGAIN.

[Keith Tedford]

If you want to see where the lib left gets its foundation, just check out any university. If you are a student that doesn't see it the lib left way you are put down and ridiculed. I can introduce you to some people who have been there. Professors aren't teaching, they are pushing an idiology. Who do you thing runs our country for the most part? The lib left educated university graduates. It can get depressing trying to do the right thing with these clowns around. If every student had to do one tour of duty in one of these troubled countries, they would come home with a whole different perspective and they would forget everything that the professors ever told them. Our son and son-in-law have been is Bosnia, Kosovo, and Afghanistan. The pictures and stories that they brought home were something else.
The Islamic fundamentalist are playing to win. There is no compromise. They intimidate, terrorize, or kill anyone in their way. It's a war we CAN'T lose.

[Kim_Howie]

Keith, high school is the same way. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

[Keith Tedford]

Kim, We have teachers in our family with their heads on straight. Others I know don't have the sense to come in out of the rain and yet have papers that make them look like smart people. Just because you have a good memory doesn't mean that you can apply what you know. Up here our education system needs to be turned upside down and shaken out. Sounds like yours is the same.

[rsatz28]

[ QUOTE ]
Keith, high school is the same way. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Grade school too!

My 11 yo daughter came home a few weeks ago and announced that Bush was a murderer! Her 5th grade class was talking about current affairs, and the Iraq conflict was discussed!

We let the principal know that the Iraq conflict was not an appropriate current affairs subject for a 5th grade class.

[SSJunkie68-69]

[ QUOTE ]
If you want to see where the lib left gets its foundation, just check out any university. If you are a student that doesn't see it the lib left way you are put down and ridiculed. Professors aren't teaching, they are pushing an idiology.

[/ QUOTE ]

So true Keith....Just look at the rush to judgement that was made on the Duke Lacrosse team by nearly 100 professors there that signed a petition condemning the players and the program. Over a year later the truth did come out, the players were cleared, the prosecutor has been disbarred and just Monday Duke came to an undisclosed settlement with the three players who were falsely accused and charged.

[ QUOTE ]
The pictures and stories that they brought home were something else.
The Islamic fundamentalist are playing to win. There is no compromise. They intimidate, terrorize, or kill anyone in their way. It's a war we CAN'T lose. [quote/]

That is exactly the point I was making with the original post and some where along the way, this thread took the slow boat to China. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif The Left as well as main stream media is telling everyone this war is lost. We have to leave. There is no way we can win this. This is a war we can't lose and we have to be able to show the rest of the world that once the US commits to something we need to stay the course and finish it through. If we don't no one, including the terrorist, will take us seriously. Are there some negatives about this, yes there sure as there is with any war but put the same or equal focus on the positives that are being accomplished too.

[Johnny Horsepower]

Agreed!!!
The teaching liberals make me ill. They are also destroying this countrys moral fiber. They love to push the Gay agenda, and while i don't have a problem with homosexuality, it does not need to be in the face of impressionable kids ALL THE TIME.

I am scared for what my 2 1/2 year old son will face.
Luckily i will be vigilant in his upbringing.

John

[Kim_Howie]

Your right Tom we do have to win this war period. What we are not looking at is the " big picture". When we started in this war several other country were involved "Spain" when spain was bombed by these Cowards. They were tolded to pull out and they did, they are now controlled by terrorist. The next country to go will be France after that England. Then there will be nothing to stop them from taking over us. I'm not talking about bombs, I'm talking about world trade they will stop oil to the US and we will be done. Think about it!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[kwhizz]

[ QUOTE ]
Agreed!!!
The teaching liberals make me ill. They are also destroying this countrys moral fiber. They love to push the Gay agenda, and while i don't have a problem with homosexuality, it does not need to be in the face of impressionable kids ALL THE TIME.

I am scared for what my 2 1/2 year old son will face.
Luckily i will be vigilant in his upbringing.

John

[/ QUOTE ]

And they can get away with it because the ACLU has Sued everyone under the Sun to do away with "Common Sense and Decency" (Lawyers again)

Ken

[69LM1]

Kim,
We have plenty of Oil here in the USA. BUT, FLA and Alaska won't drill for it. Only here in Louisiana are we activly drilling in the gulf. The real issue IMHO is refining capacity, of which we are dwindling.

[427TJ]

[ QUOTE ]
(Lawyers again)

[/ QUOTE ]

So are any lawyers gonna' defend themselves here?

Kim: Corporations run this country, period. The lunatic fringes on both sides---on ALL sides---make a lot of noise but corporations control things. I love being a consumer and I love some of the stuff that corporations bring us but they control this place, not anybody else.

As for liberal educators, don't send your kid to those colleges. Doesn't (the late) Jerry Falwell have Liberty University? Send your kid(s) there. There are plenty of conservative colleges and professors out there. Do your homework and don't send your kid to a school with staff you don't agree with politically.

By the way, most college kids are liberal-ish because they're poor college kids and are feeling rebellious from being out on their own for the first time. They're also under intense pressure to get good grades and to succeed so they rebel against the pressure by lashing-out at authority (or hitting the keg). Ten years from now they will be invested in the American Dream and will slowly become more conservative and fall in love with making (and keeping) money. It happened to the Baby-Boomers. They exploded in the 1960s and brought us free love, free drugs, free sex, anti-war movements, acid rock, and on and on. Then they turned 25 and said to themselves, "Hey, I'd better get my s-it together and start making money because this colloge-kid poverty thing SUCKS." They went to Harvard and Wellesley and got their MBAs and law degrees and dove into the stock market in the booming 1980s. They may have hated Reagan publicly but they loved their stock portfolio's performance. Now many of the Boomers are very well off and although they wear old tie-dyed T-shirts to mow the grass, they drive BMW SUVs and Porsche Cayenne turbos and watch their stock portfolios VERY closely as they sip their Starbucks Chi tea.*

Getting back to your kids, you need to educate your children as much as you can yourself (you and the spouse) while they are growing up. Then, when some professor begins to spout his/her ideology in the classroom your child can say, "Wait a minute, that's your opinion and I have my own." It's up to parents to get their kids ready for life's little tests so that they can identfy BS and propaganda when they hear it. Don't send your kid to a college until you have done some investigation first. If they're too liberal then go somewhere else, it's like a radio dial: don't like what you hear? Switch stations or turn the damn thing off. You have freedom of choice in the United States and you can say no thank you and take your business elsewhere.

I had a few opinionated professors in college and I knew when they were sneaking-in their views in class. (That was the Reagan era and many profs would work-in their anti-Reagan views in History and Poli-Sci classes.) Lucky for me I had great parents who talked to their kids a LOT while we were growing up so I knew bull when I heard it--all kinds of bull from all angles. You have to skim that crap off the top to get to the information you need. The propaganda bounced off of me (okay, I think some of you are disagreeing with that) and I did my work and passed my exams and got the hell out of there. If you don't like a school's point of view then you have to either voice your disagreement and try to change things or move your kid out of there.

GET INVOLVED. Volunteer at your kids' schools. Get to know their teachers and other parents and what the curriculum is at the school. Don't just bitch about it, get involved. My kids come home and ask all kinds of questions all the time and my wife and I spend a lot of time explaining things to them. It's called raising your children. I try to allow them to keep an open mind and I try not pepper the explanation with too much of my own ideas. I try to present information neutrally and let them grasp the information for themselves and form their own points of view. Granted, they will grow up and be a lot like me in many ways but I want them to be themselves and make their own decisions. If they decide to be politically different than me then that's fine, just as long as they come by the house and have dinner once in a while.

*In 1985 when I was in college in the Bay Area I heard that Gerry Garcia of the Grateful Dead had been arrested in Golden Gate Park for posession (of illegal drugs). He was found passed-out in his--get this--BMW! So Mr. Flower-Power, Captain Trips, the father of the Summer of Love and free everything was found passed-out in his BEEMER! I laughed my ass off! What, a 1958 VW Bus isn't good enough for ya Gerry???? I hammered my liberal-ish friends on that one. I love the Dead but they loved their money just as much as any Reagan conservative--or anyone else with a brain does.

Time to drive more deck screws.

[Kim_Howie]

Bill, I like big Corps. They make everybody money, haven't seen a poor person make money for anybody yet. Your comment about getting involved is dead right done it my comm. for over 30 years.I have told several people Quit your bitching and get involved and change it. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[ANDY M]

I was told to always avoid the topics of religion or politics, but I feel opinionated today.
As an independent pragmatist, I prefer to base my opinions on documented fact, not biased opinions or party lines.

As has been noted here already, by the time a politician reaches the House or Senate, the need to be an acomplished liar is true, as both parties have been outed by the press repeatedly.

Please, for my education, name three media companies that are not biased in some way, shape or form. Of those three, find three more that won't refute your choices. All media outlets are run by people that don't so much as report the news, but record history from their own point of view, left, right or out of sight.

There has never been a Muslim country that was not run by a "Royal" family, brutal dictator or cleric. Check it out. Islam does not accept the concept of democracy, much less cultural diversity. The "Big Picture" of radical Islam is to restore the Caliphate of the time of Mohamad, whatever that is. Kuwait opted for democracy, had one election to vote in an all Islamist government, and that was that. Lebanon is a democracy, as long as it's alright with Syria, who believes that they should be in charge the same way Saddam thought he should be in charge of Kuwait. Of the 22 Arab countries in the world, none of them are democratic by any standard.

Nobody ever wins a civil war. The winner takes charge, and the loser waits for revenge. See: "The South will rise again". Sixteen years of cival war in Lebanon between Christians and Muslims ended with a bunch of these folks moving to Detroit, and no real solution. Christians have their towns, and the Muslims have theirs. Not real fair to the Christians that were driven out of the country, but those are the breaks when you live in the middle east.
Bagdad once had both large Christian and Jewish communities, as did Syria and Egypt, but no more. The Jews fled to Israel in 1948, and the Christians have been leaving steadily ever since. When the Jews won their war for indepenence, the arabs created "Palistinian Refugees". They got parked in Lebanon and Jordan mostly, but were denied citizenship in all Arab countries. These folks have been activly seeking revenge ever since, promting the hatred that drives radical Islam. Since then, this need for revenge has spread to become it's own civil war.

The Big Lie is believed when repeated often enough. See: Biased Liberal Media. Or Fox News. Or Al-jezera.
"Palistine" is a big lie. So is victory in Iraq or Afganistan. You have a better chance of discovering a cure for snoring that actually works. We can't succeed in imposing our point of view in less than 25 years, if that, and we can't leave with everything as screwed up as it is. NO CORRECT ANSWER. This is the Middle East.

Think Global. As brought up here, China is working to become THE world power. Problem is that when you have 1.3 billion people, and you need to create the modern infrastructure to support this population, the eventual shortage of natural resources will cause some kind of implosion, ala the Soviet east bloc countries. Nobody has brought up India, which has a population of over a billion people. Same scenario as China. Guys, the pie cannot be enlarged. The ability to produce steel, oil and other such products will be outstripped by demand. Every country wants to live as lavishly as we do, and it's already a global dilemma.
Pollution is so bad in Beijing that when the Olympics are held there next year, the world will be apalled. When reality sets in, then people will try to solve the problems caused by this Global dilema. Regretfully, not in our lifetimes. This is just the northern hemisphere we're talking about. Don't even get me started on the southern one.

[nuch_ss396]

[ QUOTE ]
Agreed!!!
The teaching liberals make me ill. They are also destroying this countrys moral fiber. They love to push the Gay agenda, and while i don't have a problem with homosexuality, it does not need to be in the face of impressionable kids ALL THE TIME.

I am scared for what my 2 1/2 year old son will face.
Luckily i will be vigilant in his upbringing.

John

[/ QUOTE ]

But that's it John, they do need to push that crap to our
children early on in life. They are grooming a whole new
generation to be tolerant. As you mentioned, I also don't
have any major issue with the "alternate" life style, but
I don't want anyone elses agenda being pushed onto my
children. Much like us, when they are older and wiser and
more able to deal with the issue in general, so be it.

Steve

[nuch_ss396]

Bill,

What do you charge per ticket for your seminars? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

I think you should come to my house for a talk with my daughters http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Steve

[kwhizz]

Time to drive more deck screws.


Bill.......I agree with "Everything" you said......Point well Taken........

Ken

(See ....I didn't mention anything about Lawyers)

Besides........They can't Defend themselves......they go either way....depending upon who's Paying.....LOL

[427TJ]

[ QUOTE ]
I also don't have any major issue with the "alternate" life style, but I don't want anyone elses agenda being pushed onto my children.

[/ QUOTE ]

Makes me think of a Michael Jackson joke:

What did the woman say to Michael Jackson at the beach?

"You're in my son."

[427TJ]

Ken, Steve, everybody: http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[427TJ]

[ QUOTE ]
Bill,

What do you charge per ticket for your seminars?

[/ QUOTE ]

Naah, this is as far as I go with my opining . You guys get the best of me and no one else.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[Kim_Howie]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[GRB]

Liberal indoctrination begins the second our govt. education sys gets it's hands on your child. 3 year olds are building "peace trees". American children are now indoctrinated with the idea that nothing is worth the price of war. Like Hanoi Jane said, "Better red than dead".

My youngest daughter graduated from the University of Tenn. last year. In 5 years she had TWO professors who were not left of Stalin. She was constantly in a battle with one or more of these Micheal Moore clones. I did nothing but encourage her. The day she graduated a retiring prof. began her speech with the horrors of 'Big Business' in America and Global Warming. In keeping with our previous agreement I immediately got up and walked out. Several other parents did the same. When my daughter got her diploma see too walked out.

Conservative universities are few and far between. The hatred of America, liberty, capitalism and our free enterprise sys being taught to American children is really no different than the hatred of America being taught to children in the middle east (in fact, all over the world).

[kwhizz]

Conservative universities are few and far between. The hatred of America, liberty, capitalism and our free enterprise sys being taught to American children is really no different than the hatred of America being taught to children in the middle east (in fact, all over the world).

Like Ward Churchill in Colorado.......Another Moron.....

Ken

I know Jake's Grand Dad.......

[427TJ]

[ QUOTE ]
The hatred of America, liberty, capitalism and our free enterprise sys being taught to American children is really no different than the hatred of America being taught to children in the middle east (in fact, all over the world).

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if you've noticed, but Western/American capitalism is alive and doing VERY, VERY, VERY WELL. Anti-capitalists might 'try' to indoctrinate our kids---and some are successful I suppose but those kids become angry losers---BUT the desire to have a car(s), a house, air conditioning, a pool, a boat, a bath every day, freedom of thought, freedom of speech, freedom of worship, freedom to go outside of one's tribe to find a companion, and on and on---that desire is RAMPANT across the world. Only the few, noisy malcontents like al Queda, Communists (old-school Communists, not the Chinese gov't), anarchists, and a few others make up such a small minority that they almost cannot be quantifed when compared to the BILLIONS who want what we in the West have. The minority that makes noise usually gets the attention it seeks, thanks to 24-hour cable news that needs SOMETHING to fill all that time, but rarely does that minority really get its way. Remember the WTO (World Trade Organization) riots here in Seattle several years ago? The anarchists made a big noise and all the local news and CNN/Fox/etc. all covered it from every angle. It was just like London during the German blitz in 1940-41 with newspeople on the rooftops and mayhem in the sreeets. Then the police moved in and kicked the s-it out of the protesters and dispersed them. Things calmed down after a few days and the angry anarchists, who are not going to change anything no matter how many windows they break, went back to their daily lives not having made any difference. People may sympathize (liberal professors, etc.) but damn-near every human being on this planet wants what Americans enjoy daily. (Americans may sympathize but we forget all about it once we are inside Costco.)

Ask any poor Indian (in India) what he wants and he'll say, "Air conditioning." Prod him some more and he'll say, "An Escalade with air conditioning." Keep prodding and you have an American consumer ready to go, just give him a job and credit and he has been won-over by capitalism. China too. The Chinese want it so bad that I wouldn't rule-out some kind of revolution someday--they almost succeeded in 1989. The Communist Chinese ruling body had better keep buying-off the population with consumerism because that's the only way they'll hold power in this Internet/cable news century, barring massive bloodshed (transmitted worldwide on the Internet and cable news television--way too risky for the Chinese gov't).

I know, it seems as if we are losing our hold on everything and we have to blame someone. The low-end of the AM radio dial is full of screamers warning of the coming doom unless we do something. Liberal professors and colleges have been around for a long time and capitalism (and liberty) just keeps roaring along. It roars along and tosses all those whining anti-capitalists overboard and does NOT look back! You either get onboard with capitalism or you will immediately become a forgotten loser.

Those people you mention who hate America--they are a vocal yet EXTREMELY SMALL minority and have no real effect except to piss-off AM radio hosts who need something to rail against to keep you angry and listening and buying the products his radio show advertises. (Capitalism again.) Look around: America is alive and well and thriving. Yeah, the stock market collapse of 2000-2001 really put a dent in my portfolio (I didn't get out fast enough) but it's been coming back (capitalism!) and I am not worried. Oh, and give American kids some credit. They may enjoy hearing anti-American screed from college professors because it suits their rebellious nature as college kids. But 99.999% of our youth cannot wait to get out of school and start BUYING STUFF. I remember it well. I bought an '87 LX 5.0 brand new with my college grad discount at Hayward Ford and the rumble of those stainless pipes and the pull of that little 302 (uphill in 3rd with the a/c on high) made me instantly forget any of that anti-whatever crap I had experienced during the past four years.

EVERYBODY ON EARTH wants liberty, capitalism and our free enterprise system for themselves, even hard-core al Queda crazies. (Osama bin Laden is from an incredibly wealthy family, by the way. How's that for irony?) You could take an al Queda foot-soldier out of his element, detox him for a few months, and then immerse him in capitalsim by giving him a decent job, a car, and freedom of everything. Maybe 1 in 50 would resist but eventually the other 49 would see that what we have in America is what they wanted all along: freedom, liberty, and yes, capitalism. Our founding fathers were not stupid.

[nuch_ss396]

[quote..... Our founding fathers were not stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct - But they also weren't liberals either http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[427TJ]

[ QUOTE ]
[quote..... Our founding fathers were not stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct - But they also weren't liberals either http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh sure they were. Just not the modern type that scares the sh-it out of the opposite fringe. They were liberals, conservatives, and anyone else who shared a common goal to create a free and strong country full of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. They were also all well-to-do white male land-owners who basically thought alike so it was an elite club. Things have sometimes gone awry since then but the foundation they laid has endured almost exactly the way they intended it to. Almost.

[Kim_Howie]

Are founding Fathers were all liberals they fought the Brits. to start this country!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

[tom406]

First off, a thank you to Bill/427TJ. I kind of urged him to share his opinion in this thread, and I got busy and let him do all the heavy lifting. I always enjoy his well thought out posts and appreciate him taking the time to type them out.

As I stated during the run up to the war, the events of 9/11 were mostly separate from Iraq. As Bill pointed out, there are many other examples of more brutal leaders around the world, and none of them were as well contained as Saddam. This was a war of choice, brought about by a mixture of post 9/11 vengence, wounded pride by some neo-cons who felt the Gulf war was an unfinished job rather than a tactical decision, and a desire to really have control of an oil-rich part of the middle East. Not a simple grab for a bunch of barrels, but a misguided dream to think that we could just end up with our own little private Texas in the middle of a region we cannot control and resent having to try and manage. I believe this war was lost before it ever started, but even if it wasn't, come on, the administration had no real political or media opposition from 9/11 thru Cindy Sheehan. If it was winnable, they had the time and materials to do it. The management of the war was as flawed as the justification of it, so no "win" is attainable. Why keep sending soldiers and money into the hole? Support our troops-YES- demand that they be given a good plan and the tools and numbers to carry it out. That didn't happen in Iraq.

TOM

[rare1]

Three blokes - a Canadian farmer, Osama bin Laden and an
Aussie engineer - were working together when they come across a lantern .
One of them rubbed it and a Genie popped out. "I will give each of you one
wish," said the Genie.
> >
> >
> >
> > The Canadian said, "I am a farmer, and my son will also farm.
I want the land to be forever fertile in Canada."
> >
> >
> >
> > POOOOFF! In the blink of the Genie's eye, the land in Canada
was forever fertile for farming.
> >
> >
> >
> > Osama bin Laden was amazed, so he said, "I want a high wall
around Afghanistan, Israel, Palestine, Iraq and Iran so that no infidels,
Americans or Australians can come into our precious lands."
> >
> >
> >
> > POOOFF! Again, with the blink of the Genie's eye, there was a
huge wall around those countries.
> >
> >
> >
> > The Aussie engineer said, "I 'm curious. Tell me more about
this wall."
> >
> >
> >
> > The Genie explained, "Well, it's about 5,000 feet high, 500
feet thick and completely surrounds the countries. Nothing can get in or
out - it's virtually impenetrable."
> >
> >
> >
> > The Aussie cracked open a beer, smiled and said, "My wish -
fill it with water."
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[Supergas990]

That's GREAT!!! I'll have that beer now. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Blair

[Kim_Howie]

POOF WORLD PEACE http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[ANDY M]

The other version of that joke goes like this:
The Canadian asks the genie for a great job and a stable marriage. Done. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
The Aussie asks the genie for a large harem of beautiful women to satisfy his every whim and fancy. Done http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif
Bin Laden, hearing this, smiles and thinks this over. After a minute or two, he finally makes up his mind and tells the genie, "That sounds like a pretty good idea, except I would like to be white, and completely surrounded by exotic Arab women.
So the genie turned him into a tampon. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[Mr70]

We"ll need snacks too....POOF! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v669/Rick_Peters/popcorn-1.gif

[427TJ]

[ QUOTE ]
So the genie turned him into a tampon.

[/ QUOTE ]

LMFAO!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[Kim_Howie]

Both versions are good!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[SSJunkie68-69]

Here's something I came across written by Paul Walden in his writings on " The Dixie Bonus". Interesting take on things and thought I would pass it along as it is a Different Point of View.......


For real, y'all



"Southern-ness ... is supposed to be a marker of 'authenticity.' People who are from the South are genuine, forthright, the kind of folks you'd like to have a beer with, while if you come from somewhere else, chances are you're a big phony. Witness Fred Thompson. ... Southerners are always taking offense at people who supposedly look down on them, but to someone who was raised in the Northeast, the idea that Southerners are inherently more 'real,' and more American, than the rest of us is deeply insulting.



"Of course, this is part of a whole complex of stereotypes about what and who is really American. And nobody embraces them more than the liberal northeastern elitists in the media. As far as they're concerned, the South is more American than the Northeast or the West, small towns are more American than big cities, country music is more American than folk or jazz or hip-hop, NASCAR is more American than basketball, and so on. The fact that those media Brahmins themselves don't live in small towns or listen to country music or watch NASCAR is precisely what feeds their idealized view of what a 'real' American is, and what his beliefs and tastes are."