Yellow Canadian L89 [Archive] - The Supercar Registry

Terry_z28

09-02-2007, 07:50 PM

I saw a very nice looking L89 Camaro at the GM show in Oshawa Ontario this past weekend and was just wondering if anyone knows the history of the car ?

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/3133/copol78018db7.jpg
By steadyj17 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/steadyj17), shot with DSC-W5 (http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=DSC-W5&make=SONY) at 2007-09-01

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/12/copol78019mw1.jpg
By steadyj17 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/steadyj17) at 2007-09-01

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/5954/copol78021hj3.jpg
By steadyj17 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/steadyj17), shot with DSC-W5 (http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=DSC-W5&make=SONY) at 2007-09-01

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/7754/copol78014mr8.jpg
By steadyj17 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/steadyj17), shot with DSC-W5 (http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=DSC-W5&make=SONY) at 2007-09-01

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/7633/copol78015rx6.jpg
By steadyj17 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/steadyj17), shot with DSC-W5 (http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=DSC-W5&make=SONY) at 2007-09-01

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/8654/copol78016lq6.jpg
By steadyj17 (http://profile.imageshack.us/user/steadyj17), shot with DSC-W5 (http://profile.imageshack.us/camerabuy.php?model=DSC-W5&make=SONY) at 2007-09-01

427king

09-02-2007, 08:08 PM

Car is for sale on another website as well. Nice to see rare cars with docs . http://www.camaros.net/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=20130&cat=44 Ad says walnut wheel ,im guessing it should be a rosewood by dec 68 unless Canada did things differently .

Steve Shauger

09-02-2007, 09:04 PM

Trin Tag is not authentic!

Hotrodpaul

09-02-2007, 09:12 PM

Thats a repro trim tag if I ever saw one! I am guessing that the car is not an original L-89 or a 396 car for that matter.

Paul

olredalert

09-02-2007, 09:20 PM

-------So you are saying the Canadian paperwork is also suspect??? Could this be an example of a damaged or lost trim tag???.......Bill S

SSJunkie68-69

09-02-2007, 09:28 PM

Kind of like the HO 69 Yenko mentioned in another thread?

Hylton

09-02-2007, 09:55 PM

The best way to find out about a car is to track it's history. The car is owned by Richard English (RARE Z/28) of Camaro Heaven. He had purchased the car from Matt Langford (d_n_m69). I believe it was Matt who restored the car. Matt, who did you buy the car from and what happened to the original trim tag?

427king

09-02-2007, 10:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I am guessing that the car is not an original L-89 or a 396 car for that matter

[/ QUOTE ] Just because the trim tag was changed doesnt mean the canada papers are not legit. The trim tag is meaningless to documenting the car as an L89 anyway. If the trim tag was missing it would still be fine if the canada papers are legit. Im sure any potential buyers will check vins and pay the 40.00 to GM canada.

Hylton

09-02-2007, 10:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am guessing that the car is not an original L-89 or a 396 car for that matter

[/ QUOTE ] Just because the trim tag was changed doesnt mean the canada papers are not legit. The trim tag is meaningless to documenting the car as an L89 anyway. If the trim tag was missing it would still be fine if the canada papers are legit. Im sure any potential buyers will check vins and pay the 40.00 to GM canada.

[/ QUOTE ]

True but any sign of a fake trim tag is always cause for concern with respect to rebodying, regardless of how many docs you have. Not saying this car is a rebody but finding out where the car originally came from would help authenticate this car.

Terry_z28

09-02-2007, 11:51 PM

i find it strange that this car and the green COPO beside it both have fake trim tags !

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/713/copol78010sf5.th.jpg (http://img297.imageshack.us/my.php?image=copol78010sf5.jpg)

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/4026/copol78003vy2.th.jpg (http://img403.imageshack.us/my.php?image=copol78003vy2.jpg)

m22mike

09-02-2007, 11:55 PM

Obvious repop tag, I will refrain from calling it a fake, they way overdid the sealant on the rivets, but atleast they used some.
Mike A

RARE Z/28

09-03-2007, 06:35 AM

I do not own the L89 for sale! I do however have a fully documented original body, original engine Copo for sale. I would like for anyone interested to personally come and see my car. I have every stich of documentation and paperwork from previous owners. In addition to that I have the entire restoration very well photographed from start to finish. I find it very interesting that the people questioning the authenticity of things neither own a rare car and in most cases have never actually built a car of any description! Just an observation! I would gladly pay Mr.Jerry M's fee to document my car should someone be serious about purchasing. If there are any other questions about my cars or the quality of restoration please refer to the previous thread about my car when it was for sale last year. That should clear up any questions about its authenticity.

camaromb

09-03-2007, 06:56 AM

The only question is where are all the original trim tags these days! Its too easy to build a car with only documentation, especially in Canada. As in the 5 ZL1's registered last year by one owner, its way too easy to register a car with no history in some provinces in Canada.
Only complete owner history will verify many of these cars.
as always do your homework on these big dollar restored cars.

m22mike

09-03-2007, 07:08 AM

I am having a hard time understanding why some people get there shorts in a bunch when the obvious is brought to light.
Whatever this L89 car is or is not.......IT HAS A RE POP TRIM TAG ON IT !!!!!!
Send the pic to CGR and they will tell you the same thing, Jerry might even chime.
If you are going to put out a world class car like this L89, be ready to do some fast talking about the trim tag.
If it was replaced because the old on was jacked up, just say so.
Thanks for the rant.
Mike A

Terry_z28

09-03-2007, 10:52 AM

Mr. English, you asked us to refer to your previous post about your COPO to clear up any questions we may have, so I did:

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat...e=1&fpart=1 (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB1&Number=227511&page=1 &fpart=1)

After reading it, I am puzzled. You said in the post from last year that you took parts of the car that were on Ebay and combined them with the original stolen car which you found. If so, why is there a fake trim tag on your COPO? I would think that if you had found the original car, the trim tag would still be on it when you found it.

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

09-03-2007, 05:17 PM

R.Peters, would you please pass the popcorn? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

HiHorse

09-03-2007, 05:40 PM

Just curious what would your original engine have stamped on the deck of the block?

HiHorse

09-03-2007, 07:20 PM

I'm confused, I thought there was only one documented canadian ZL1. Whats the story on the other 4, are they canadian?

Jonesy

09-03-2007, 07:24 PM

Insert popcorn smiley here :grin:

njsteve

09-03-2007, 07:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm confused, I thought there was only one documented canadian ZL1. Whats the story on the other 4, are they canadian?

[/ QUOTE ]

In 69 there were several ZL1s (5, I think?) that were stolen from a dealership never to be seen again (this was after they sat for an extended time due to the unbelievable sticker price). Speculation over the years is that the theft was staged and that they were crushed for an insurance settlement on the cars since no one was buying them.

Recently someone in Canada applied for titles for all 5 VINs. So, the going theory is that they are creating a papertrail for non-existant cars in the future anticipation of cloning them and passing them off as real. Which is rather dumb since the moment one of them surfaces, they will be siezed and the winner will be the insurance company that originally settled the claim. And if you think that's unlikely, just look what happens any time a large sunken treasure is located. You have insurance companies from claims made 500 years ago claiming their maritime rights over the recovered booty. So, a 38 year old claim is a cakewalk for them to research.

The guy registering these titles is basically creating his own do-it-yourself, self-incrimination kit. Not too swift in a legal sense. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

nuch_ss396

09-03-2007, 08:47 PM

Steve,

That's an interesting perspective.

Steve

427king

09-03-2007, 08:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As in the 5 ZL1's registered last year by one owner

[/ QUOTE ] Not to mention the possibility that someone else did the same thing as well and you dont know about it . There actually could be a few of each??

HiHorse

09-03-2007, 10:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Its too easy to build a car with only documentation, especially in Canada. As in the 5 ZL1's registered last year by one owner, its way too easy to register a car with no history in some provinces in Canada.

[/ QUOTE ]
GM Canada Documentation tells you what options came with the VIN but buyers should always verify the actual car eg the VIN derivatives on the firewall etc. In the province of Ontario from what I heard lately it is difficult to register an old VIN without proper title and the actual car.

TimG

09-03-2007, 10:29 PM

If this is true, it could be an interesting scenario if the insurance company went out of business or sold. There is a very real possibility that no insurance company makes claim to the vehicles.

Hylton

09-03-2007, 10:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Car is for sale on another website as well. Nice to see rare cars with docs . http://www.camaros.net/classifieds/showproduct.php?product=20130&cat=44 Ad says walnut wheel ,im guessing it should be a rosewood by dec 68 unless Canada did things differently .

[/ QUOTE ]

That's weird. The ad has been pulled after 3 days since this thread has come out. You figure that the owner would use this opportunity to come out and discuss the car and it's abiguities instead of making it disappear for a while.

Nobody who has anything to do with this L89 wants to come forward and discuss the car. Why is that? Such a beautiful car! People would usually be proud to come forward and say I own it or I restored it. Instead, complete silence........

Hylton

09-03-2007, 11:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm confused, I thought there was only one documented canadian ZL1. Whats the story on the other 4, are they canadian?

[/ QUOTE ]

The 5 they are talking about are these:

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/197782/an/0/page/1#197782

Hylton

09-03-2007, 11:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
.... Speculation over the years is that the theft was staged and that they were crushed for an insurance settlement on the cars since no one was buying them....

[/ QUOTE ]

I must correct you Steve. Motown Madman has all 5 sitting in a barn somewhere! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

Hotrodpaul

09-03-2007, 11:31 PM

Beautiful job on the L-89 car even if the trim tag is fake. Did anyone notice that the putty used on both the L-89 and Green COPO look the same? Did the same person restore both cars? I believe the putty or filler was installed right after the rivets and then the black firewall paint was applied. The putty on these cars looks like an afterthought.

Paul

njsteve

09-03-2007, 11:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If this is true, it could be an interesting scenario if the insurance company went out of business or sold. There is a very real possibility that no insurance company makes claim to the vehicles.

[/ QUOTE ]

No such animal. If an insurance company closes it's doors, all the claims, policies, assets and liabilities get sold to/assigned to a sucessor company. That is part of insurance law/regulations. That is why the treasure hunters have such a headache. Remember the Atocha?

http://www.newworldtreasures.com/atochastory.htm

http://www.melfisher.com/

I think it was 20 years for all the claims to be settled between the insurance companies, countries and the IRS being involved.

njsteve

09-04-2007, 12:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Beautiful job on the L-89 car even if the trim tag is fake. Did anyone notice that the putty used on both the L-89 and Green COPO look the same? Did the same person restore both cars? I believe the putty or filler was installed right after the rivets and then the black firewall paint was applied. The putty on these cars looks like an afterthought.

Paul

[/ QUOTE ]

You could always try to perform a fingerprint comparison of the thumb prints in the two car's putty-filled rivets!

By the way, I wouldn't put too much nefarious evidentiary value in rivet putty: when you strip a firewall with chemical stripper you have to dig the original putty out of those rivets because it will act like a sponge and hold the stripper residue forever. When I cleaned and stripped the upper cowl on my T/A, I ran into the same problem. So I now have the dreaded thumbprint-puttied rivets on my car, too! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

Before stripping:

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i30/nk15268a/firewalltag1.jpg

After stripping. Looks like a completely different tag once all the paint layers are gone:

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i30/nk15268a/dtatatag3.jpg

After paint, before thumb-applied putty:

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i30/nk15268a/firewalltop5.jpg

And for security reasons I wont be showing my thumb-printed puttied rivets for fear of someone attempting to match my thumb puttied rivets to other less scrupulous rivet thumb putty application technicians' wares.

William

09-04-2007, 01:06 AM

The ZL1s in question were at Merollis Chev in Detroit:

#11 N609016
#24 N609838
#32 N610515
#37 N612963
#50 N620498

#11 was recovered quickly and has been in Ohio with the same owner for many years. #24 was recovered and scrapped in MA in the early '70s. The remainder show no history at all but were not titled to an insurance company when I was chasing them years ago meaning they were recovered and processed. #43 N615362 was privately owned when it was stolen off the lot at Hauser Chev in PA and is still registered to an insurance company indicating it was never recovered.

njsteve

09-04-2007, 01:26 AM

If they were not titled to an insurance company after the loss that would most likely mean the rights to the cars were at the time of the theft, and still are, in Chevrolet's hands. That means there are tons of internal Chevy/GM lawyers just standing by, waiting for the minute one of these cars surfaces and Chevy wants it back for their historical collection.

olredalert

09-04-2007, 02:25 AM

--------Hey Steve,,,Im wondering what the 6 and 1 mean that are stamped inward on your tag???........Bill S

njsteve

09-04-2007, 03:34 AM

My guess is that they are inspectors' stamps of some sort. No more "P" "T" or "B" paint stamps in 1972, maybe this replaced them.

Charley Lillard

09-04-2007, 04:12 AM

I would guess they were stamped by the dealer as a type of inventory.

Hylton

09-04-2007, 04:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I do not own the L89 for sale!.....

[/ QUOTE ]

My bad Richard! I just assumed that you were the owner since you were the one trying to sell it in Hemmings. Here's some free advertising anyways:

http://www.camaros.net/showroom/data/541/medium/CDN_L89.JPG

William

09-04-2007, 09:34 PM

Nope, they were ripped from a dealer meaning the dealer owned them. If they were still in limbo they would be registered to whomever paid the claim. Since they weren't [I ran the VINs several times] the conclusion is they were recovered and processed through an auction. One of them was used to bash open the gate and may have been scrapped. The VINs were not known until the early '80s so it is possible the others were rebuilt, driven daily for many years and scrapped. Or maybe became race cars-having walked the pits at dragstrips countless times I know there are many 69s with no VIN plate. One of them could easily have been a Merollis ZL1.

Chevy454

09-04-2007, 09:58 PM

[I'll get this one for ya, Hylton! LOL!!]

Sorry to hijack(!), but let's keep the misplaced ZL-1 chatter in the appropriate thread, okie dokie?! It will make it easier to find down the road when these things turn up (ha ha!)... 5 newly found ZL-1s (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/197782/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1/nt/4)

musclecarjohn

09-05-2007, 12:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[I'll get this one for ya, Hylton! LOL!!]

Sorry to hijack(!), but let's keep the misplaced ZL-1 chatter in the appropriate thread, okie dokie?! It will make it easier to find down the road when these things turn up (ha ha!)... 5 newly found ZL-1s (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/197782/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1/nt/4)

[/ QUOTE ]

But is Hylton OK with that...? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Hylton

09-05-2007, 03:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I do not own the L89 for sale! I do however have a fully documented original body, original engine Copo for sale. I would like for anyone interested to personally come and see my car. I have every stich of documentation and paperwork from previous owners. In addition to that I have the entire restoration very well photographed from start to finish. I find it very interesting that the people questioning the authenticity of things neither own a rare car and in most cases have never actually built a car of any description! Just an observation! I would gladly pay Mr.Jerry M's fee to document my car should someone be serious about purchasing. If there are any other questions about my cars or the quality of restoration please refer to the previous thread about my car when it was for sale last year. That should clear up any questions about its authenticity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody was answering Terry's initial question so on my way home, I pulled a UVIP on the car so that it can be clear who owns it and who this "one owner" was.

For those of you not living in Ontario, a UVIP is a document which can be purchased by anyone (even online) who is considering purchasing an Ontario based vehicle. Many states have a similar program and I do recommend spending the extra time and money when buying an expensive car.

All that is required is a VIN number OR the license plate number. This document identifies the car in question, whether there are any liens on it, it's current owner and the cars previous owners. In other words, you get vehicle history.

Here is the UVIP for this car:

http://www.camaros.net/showroom/data/541/medium/L89_UVIP_1.jpg

http://www.camaros.net/showroom/data/541/medium/L89_UVIP_2.jpg

As indicated in Section 2 above, the current owner is Phillip Robinson who is Richard English's business partner at Camaro Heaven (unless things have changed). Phillip took ownership of the car on June 6, 2006.

Section 3 of an Ontario UVIP identifies all previous owners of a car. Richard English took ownership of this car on July 15, 2005 from David James Mattina and Mathew G. Langford. David James Mattina and Mathew G. Langford registered this car on Spetember 17, 2004.

So what surprised me is when I compared the information on this official state document to the selling information on the Hemmings ad, a few questions came to light:

1. The Hemmings ad indicates this car as being a one owner car yet when I look at the UVIP, it was co-owned by 2 guys. Did the two guys buy the car together in 1969? They would have had to if the Hemmings claim is true.

2. Why if David Mattina / Matthew Langford were in fact the original owners as claimed, did they only register the car on September 17, 2004, 35 years after buying it? I would think the car would have been in a state not requiring a full resto if that was the case.

3. In the Hemmings ad it mentions that seller is in possesion of a letter from the original owner indicating that the M22 "transmission was replaced after just a few weeks of service". Who might that person be?

4. Why does the car have a fake trim tag on it if it has so few owners? Who put the fake trim tag on the car?

5. Which one of the 3(4) owners restored the car?

This are just questions that came to mind after reviewing this public/published information.

How come the owner can't come onto this site and clear up any issues? You are trying to sell a car for $225,000!!!! Do you think people are stupid enough to hand over that kind of cake without the questions above being answered? Mr. Robinson, if you want to sell your car, I suggest you respond to my questions.

427king

09-05-2007, 04:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
a UVIP is a document which can be purchased by anyone (even online) who is considering purchasing an Ontario based vehicle.

[/ QUOTE ] You have to be careful since posting a document for millions to see that arent interested in buying the car is not the intended use of that document i would think. Put yourself in the place of a previous owner who wouldnt be happy about seeing his name on the internet like this. Just an observation.Maybe your privacy laws up there are different.

Hylton

09-05-2007, 04:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a UVIP is a document which can be purchased by anyone (even online) who is considering purchasing an Ontario based vehicle.

[/ QUOTE ] You have to be careful since posting a document for millions to see that arent interested in buying the car is not the intended use of that document i would think. Put yourself in the place of a previous owner who wouldnt be happy about seeing his name on the internet like this. Just an observation.Maybe your privacy laws up there are different.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are no restrictions with respect to who sees the document as the government had stripped all personal information such as address and phone numbers. Anyone from anywhere can obtain this document at anytime. There is nothing to sign, no disclaimer, nothing which indicates that this document can only be purchased if (add cause here).

Charley Lillard

09-05-2007, 05:20 AM

OK....I'm getting lost again. Somewhere in this thread someone points out a green COPO that has a fake trim tag. Somewhere in this thread is a link to the old thread on the same COPO. In the old thread the car was re-united with it's orig trim tag and engine ? If so where is it's orig trim tag ? Is this even the same car ?

69LM1

09-05-2007, 05:40 AM

I think we're back to the Yellow (L89)?

In any case, imho, 200k plus days are gone for a car like this even if it is real. As they say, the market, its a ajustin'.

Belair62

09-05-2007, 05:47 AM

There may not be a line waiting to buy one but an L89 documented is gonna fetch some serious money still..real deal cars are still real money imho.

Hylton

09-05-2007, 06:05 AM

70CitrusZ

09-05-2007, 06:09 AM

I think this is only the Ontario registration history, so maybe it was purchased new out of province? I have seen these Docs from GM Canada list the original dealer, when in fact the car was transferred to another dealer before it was sold, so in fact the selling dealer is not on the paperwork. Case in point, the Canadian ZL1 sold in Alberta.
Its selling dealer and listed dealer on the paperwork from GM Canada are two different dealers.
Mark

Zedder

09-05-2007, 06:23 AM

The ad posted says the car was a one owner car "until" it was restored...it does not say it is a one-owner car...

I don't know anything about the car...just read the ad.

Hylton

09-05-2007, 06:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is only the Ontario registration history, so maybe it was purchased new out of province? I have seen these Docs from GM Canada list the original dealer, when in fact the car was transferred to another dealer before it was sold, so in fact the selling dealer is not on the paperwork. Case in point, the Canadian ZL1 sold in Alberta.
Its selling dealer and listed dealer on the paperwork from GM Canada are two different dealers.
Mark

[/ QUOTE ]

Normally this would be possible but there was a claim made in the advertising which indicated (as mentioned above) there was only one owner before the restoration. Since the ad mentions that the restoration occured in 2005, the original owner must be who owned the car in 2004.

Zedder

09-05-2007, 07:23 AM

Ontario DMV records only go back to the early 70's, so if the car transferred out of Province either in a dealer transfer when new, or if the car was sold in Weston, On and the owner moved to Quebec for instance early in the car's life, the owner would not show up on the Ontario DMV ownership listing until the car was registered (or reregistered) in Ontario. No UVIP will list owners prior to the early 70's...I tracked a '67 Z years ago sold out of Gorries' and that is exactly what happened to the car.

Hylton

09-05-2007, 03:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ontario DMV records only go back to the early 70's, so if the car transferred out of Province either in a dealer transfer when new, or if the car was sold in Weston, On and the owner moved to Quebec for instance early in the car's life, the owner would not show up on the Ontario DMV ownership listing until the car was registered (or reregistered) in Ontario. No UVIP will list owners prior to the early 70's...I tracked a '67 Z years ago sold out of Gorries' and that is exactly what happened to the car.

[/ QUOTE ]

That would not explain why this L89 first shows up in the records in 2004. You seem to be missing the point here - it has been claimed that there was only one owner prior to the restoration in 2005. The UVIP indicates that the one owner prior to the restoration date is the joint ownership of David Mattina and Matt Langford. If the one owner prior to restoration claim is true, then David Mattina and Matt Langford together bought the car new in 1969 regadless of what province or dealer the car was purchased from.

If your point were to apply here Mark, it would mean that Dave Mattina and Matt Langford lived in another province until 2004 when they moved here. That - my friend, did not happen......

Keith Tedford

09-05-2007, 04:20 PM

Perhaps the information is hit and miss. We bought our '69 SS396 Chevelle in the fall of 1997. The list of a dozen previous owners went right back to the original owner in 1969. We eventually met him and had a great chat. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Our COPO car has been out of circulation since 1977. Perhaps I should check and see what information they still have on it.

Zedder

09-05-2007, 05:03 PM

Sorry, but I read the ad to mean that it was a one-owner car, then sold and restored by the second owner(s) (Dave and Matt). It then appears to have been sold to English and then his partner based on the info you posted. I really don't care one way or the other, but I think your interpretation of the ad is a bit off...

Hylton

09-05-2007, 05:18 PM

Okay Mark, then who was the first owner?

Hylton

09-05-2007, 05:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, but I read the ad to mean that it was a one-owner car, then sold and restored by the second owner(s) (Dave and Matt)....

[/ QUOTE ]

So would you conclude that Dave and Matt would be the guys who most likely can tell us why the car has a fake trim tag on it?

clopo

09-05-2007, 05:31 PM

Regardless of whos on first or whats on second I know who should be on third Buyer Beware

Hylton

09-05-2007, 05:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Regardless of whos on first or whats on second I know who should be on third Buyer Beware

[/ QUOTE ]

I knew that was coming.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

firez

09-05-2007, 06:36 PM

Both of these cars were at the Ontario Camaro Clubs show this past June in Niagara Falls

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

09-05-2007, 07:39 PM

If Richard is a member here, perhaps he can explain why his two cars have repro TT's?

Zedder

09-06-2007, 03:27 AM

Sorry, I have no idea who the first owner was, nor how many owners the car had. I'm just giving my interpretation of the ad and UVIP that you posted.

Maxx

09-06-2007, 05:45 AM

I just saw this thread and thought it would be good to remind everyone what an original COPO cowl tag looks like since we keep seeing so many fakes.
Thanks Maxx http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

Steve Shauger

09-06-2007, 06:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I just saw this thread and thought it would be good to remind everyone what an original COPO cowl tag looks like since we keep seeing so many fakes.
Thanks Maxx http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

What identifies that tag as "an original copo tag"???

Maxx

09-06-2007, 07:04 AM

Nothing! "COPO" should be scratched from my previous sentence. Sorry
Just a nice original cowl tag untouched with original attachment caulk. However it is from a COPO car. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

firez

09-06-2007, 03:55 PM

I have seen 2 unmolested original car and there is no caulking what so ever near the rivits. Both LA cars

tabooo

09-06-2007, 05:08 PM

Maxx, If it's possible can you show your tag from from your 1821 mile unrestored 1969 z28/rs.
Thanks

PeteLeathersac

09-06-2007, 05:45 PM

If all is truly genuine w/ this car aside from the Cowl Tag, OK great...a real L89 w/ Canadian docs that for whatever reason needed a repop tag?.

The part I can't help but think of and let me be clear I'm only surmising the following as a 'possible situation' for any car...but think of what could result if someone stumbled across a known Canadian L89 Vin or maybe even the L89 option noted on one of the microfish copy pages GM Vintage Services used to give out when documenting a single vehicle?. (The microfish pages they used to give out showed a couple dozen cars besides the car being documented and included the Vin also options shipped w/ it).
So if someone did happen to find or spot a Vin w/ the L89 option but didn't have the car, the temptation to 'reverse-resto' a car could be a reality?.
Obviously a rebody w/ repop tags including Cowl and Vin tag would be necessary...so depending on what the tag results were, viewing the stampings and hidden Vins would be the next step on any car these thoughts were applied to?.
Again, I want to be specific that I'm only surmising these situations and not necessarily considering the vehicle in this thread or any other specific cars being suspect...only thinking of the possibilities of how it could all take place especially here in Ontario Canada where it's simple to obtain a title to the Vin of your choice w/ records that don't reach back quite far enough, 'bulletproof' Canadian Vintage Service documents available...all mixed w/ today's world of rebodys, restamps and repop tags!?.

~ Pete
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

70CitrusZ

09-06-2007, 06:19 PM

good point. So you are saying this could be an indication of a "fabricated" car?. I think that would be a pretty stupid move by the person who did such a thing, all it would take is a check of the hidden vin, and what if the original car popped up somewhere? yikes...

Charley Lillard

09-06-2007, 06:27 PM

Please let this not get out of hand. So far what we have is a L89 and a COPO that simply have repo trim tags and some inconsistencies in the history of the COPO.

allcamaro

09-06-2007, 07:04 PM

LA Trim tag with sealer

http://fototime.com/5C7BF275BE9874F/standard.jpg

allcamaro

09-06-2007, 07:07 PM

Some have it, who worked that day.

http://fototime.com/68F0CEE1B709ED7/standard.jpg

wannaBBC

09-06-2007, 07:12 PM

I think this thread has already got out of hand by a couple of individuals , they know who they are, the way i see it, is the owners of these fabulous rare cars have nothing to prove to anyone on this site. If you have a pocket full of money and want to buy a car of this caliber , go see it and I am sure you will get the whole story and proof on both cars , if I owned these cars i would not respond to all the wannabe car detectives with no money to purchase either of these cars,if you put your money where your mouth is, then, you would expect the owners will disclose all the information you would need to purchase such a high dollar rare car.there seems to be a few people on this site trying to get to the bottom of something for no reason ,just my opinion .

allcamaro

09-06-2007, 07:13 PM

So their we have a 67 68 69 Los trim tag with sealer or caulk.

http://fototime.com/DCB634FA16090CB/standard.jpg

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

09-06-2007, 07:37 PM

x Baldwin Motion

09-06-2007, 07:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So their we have a 67 68 69 Los trim tag with sealer or caulk.

http://fototime.com/DCB634FA16090CB/standard.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

so there we have it on the caulk. it just depends on how you feel like squeezing the trigger. soon we will be able to tell if it's a monday or friday car based on the caulk. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

Hylton

09-06-2007, 07:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Not true. The car should stand on it's own merit, one should not need a pile of money to get the truth.

[/ QUOTE ]

All that is required to put this thing to bed is one post by Matt Langford to say why the fake tag is on this car and who the original owner is.

69L72RS

09-06-2007, 08:00 PM

Isn't Matt the same guy that tried to sell a fake KQ rear to Helmut, last year? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/COPO-YENK...1QQcmdZViewItem (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/COPO-YENKO-REAR-END-HOUSING-1969-CHEVELLE-KQ_W0QQitemZ4623877168QQcategoryZ34202QQrdZ1QQcmdZ ViewItem)

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat...true#Post198605 (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=UBB5&Number=198605&Search page=5&Main=198060&Words=69L72RS&topic=&Search=tru e#Post198605)

I wonder if he will eat the tag if it is fake? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

Another thought: Is the car free if it is a retag???

HEMIBEE

09-06-2007, 08:09 PM

This problem is only going to get worse, i have never seen so many fake documents, on my l89 the tag was blasted and thin in a couple of spots but i never gave replacement a thought, so an explenation would be nice so these cars wouldnt be questionable every time they pop up, its like the restamped blocks and wheathered build sheets that are being made, I for one think this board is doing a service by bringing these tags to question, it could help somebody save there $$$$$ http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

427king

09-06-2007, 08:15 PM

After reading this entire thread ive decided to start a trim tag caulk registry. I am contacting everyone that is selling a car on ebay and asking them for a close up of the caulk on thier trim tags. Maybe there is a relation between plants and caulk. IE California built cars may be prone to "caulk running" due to the heat,maybe in the summer months the caulk will be different than in winter months. I will setting up a tent for anyone interested in getting a caulk certificate at some local shows.

Rainer

09-06-2007, 08:37 PM

Caulk can be very complex. There was a great bit on Crank Yankers about it.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

http://www.comedycentral.com/motherload/...p;is_large=true (http://www.comedycentral.com/motherload/player.jhtml?ml_video=60189&ml_collection=&ml_gate way=&ml_gateway_id=&ml_comedian=&ml_runtime=&ml_co ntext=show&ml_origin_url=/shows/crank_yankers/videos/season_2/index.jhtml%3Fstart%3D16&ml_playlist=&lnk=&is_larg e=true)

firez

09-06-2007, 08:48 PM

Hey Maxx did you use to bring your camaros up to Woodstock Ontario for the shows years ago. I was looking at a picture from 8 years ago of a 69 pace car and a 68 Z28 side by side. I think Mr.English owned the pace car and you had the 68 z28. Beautiful cars.

TimG

09-06-2007, 09:24 PM

I think that before the science of trim tags evolved, many folks changed trim tags on all kinds of cars. The originals were lost or tossed and a reproduction put on to reflect what the restorer wanted. Now trim tags are, with out a doubt, harder to fake than an engine block.
I owned a '69 Pace Car that burnt in a fire, the trim tag melted. If anyone rebuilds that car, they'd have to replace the trim tag with a reproduction due to the loss of the original. They could include all of the original data, but it would be a reproduction on an original Pace Car with the original engine (what's left of it). It would probably raise lots of questions.

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

09-06-2007, 09:35 PM

"....It would probably raise lots of questions...."

As it should! A car that got burnt in a fire, lost it's tag, and got rebuilt - has a story to tell that will answer the questions.

427king

09-06-2007, 10:10 PM

If someone removed the winters casting mark on the aluminum heads ,does that mean the car isnt real???? You guys are forgetting that alot of people took off cowl tags to make the firewall and cowl area look cleaner,and others took them off to sand blast the body and they got misplaced . If this car is a canada docs car[or a US car with buildsheet],ill take it over any undocumented real tag car.There is a guy in CT that sells trim tags on ebay like they are jujubees,if anyones car went thru his hands in the past, theyd have a car with no tag for sure.I assume the way he got them is that he bought cars and sold them without a cowl tag,since 10/15 years ago noone even looked at them and wouldnt know if they were missing . To assume the car isnt real because a meaningless tag was changed is not being fair to the seller unless you know for a fact that something else is going on.

LVCamaro

09-06-2007, 10:13 PM

uh-oh...we agree again, Chuck.

SS

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

09-06-2007, 10:19 PM

Nobody is saying that the car is not real, just asking for an explanation as to 'why' it has a fake tag. If the story is that the firewall was smoothed.... it was a racecar.... the original was lost.... whatever the reason, it's usually better to give the explanation up front as opposed to having the car go through this!

ZL1#17

09-07-2007, 12:17 AM

Why was an "X" code used if the car was built in the first week of December? According to CRG, the x code started in the 2nd week of Dec. Here is a link to CRG website:
X code facts (http://www.camaros.org/numbers.shtml#XnnCodes)

Late BrakeU2

09-07-2007, 12:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think this thread has already got out of hand by a couple of individuals , they know who they are, the way i see it, is the owners of these fabulous rare cars have nothing to prove to anyone on this site. If you have a pocket full of money and want to buy a car of this caliber , go see it and I am sure you will get the whole story and proof on both cars , if I owned these cars i would not respond to all the wannabe car detectives with no money to purchase either of these cars,if you put your money where your mouth is, then, you would expect the owners will disclose all the information you would need to purchase such a high dollar rare car.there seems to be a few people on this site trying to get to the bottom of something for no reason ,just my opinion .

[/ QUOTE ]

I can think of 225 thousand reasons to get to the bottom of it.For that kind of coin I would be asking lots of questions especially on here and especially when a whiff of smoke is in the air.With statements like "wannabee detectives with no money to purchase either of them"It seems like there is an effort to put out the flames as well as fan them??.It's a gorgeous car nonetheless but it's at the point where correctly done clones are to me becoming more attractive at a third the cost,and no questions asked. Who the heck knows where this market is headed I think the top was a year ago and certainly would not want to be a broker flooring big ticket merchandise right now..but if I was it sure makes sense to have a third basemen doing damage control-can you dig it? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

Terry_z28

09-07-2007, 01:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why was an "X" code used if the car was built in the first week of December? According to CRG, the x code started in the 2nd week of Dec. Here is a link to CRG website:
X code facts (http://www.camaros.org/numbers.shtml#XnnCodes)

[/ QUOTE ]

thats the dead give away on that tag

Mark_C

09-07-2007, 01:18 AM

So now you know that the tag isn't a replica of the original, cause it got smashed, melted or some other cockomany story. Its a made up tag. At best someone added the X66 number to the original info, at worst its a completly made up tag that bears no relationship to the original.

ChevyThunder

09-07-2007, 05:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
OK....I'm getting lost again. Somewhere in this thread someone points out a green COPO that has a fake trim tag. Somewhere in this thread is a link to the old thread on the same COPO. In the old thread the car was re-united with it's orig trim tag and engine ? If so where is it's orig trim tag ? Is this even the same car ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Charley , That COPO was discussed briefley in a thread over a year ago . Richard Englsh was selling a Shelby and he mentioned his fully documented " green with delux interior copo" . I beleive it is the same car. Both you and I participated in that thread and I asked Richard if it was a COPO I had heard about in my search for a 69 COPO for myself. Richard did say in that thread that this car had " quite a story" and mentioned his willingness to start another thread to discuss the car but I am not sure if he did or not.
I passed on the car only because I really want a car with no stories and I did not feel cofortible with this particular car. Not saying anything is wrong with it just saying I was looking for something that was an a known car with everyone on the same page as to pedigree and at the time I did not see enough information for the comfort level I was looking for. Here is a link to that thread should you wish to review.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/176207/page/0/fpart/all/vc/1

I agree with Mark. Fake trim tag for sure but the 12A date also hurts any argument that the tag is a replacement for a damaged tag as the info on this fake was not included on a 12A tag. Has anyone heard any explanation on why these cars have fake tags ?

Terry_z28

09-07-2007, 07:37 AM

No ChevyThunder we are all still waiting for a reply!! we all know one of the owners is a memeber on this site. so lets just sit patient and wait for a response!

chads454Ls6

09-07-2007, 07:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
uh-oh...we agree again, Chuck.

SS

[/ QUOTE ]

Like a green ls6 convert that was proven to have a restamped motor in it?

427king

09-07-2007, 08:10 AM

Steve,A bit off topic but im in dire need of some good xram pics,im told Jeff has your car in hawaii and would be willing to send some?

PhilS

09-07-2007, 08:20 AM

That L-89 is a pretty amazing car. I think that if I were interested in owning it I would settle for examination of the cowl and firewall vins. With the GM docs to back up the vin I could overlook a missing tag. It's great to know the history of these cars but just isn't possible in many instances. I've tried to track my cars and have history on most but not all and some of it is just hearsay anyway. I don't personally know this car or its owner but that paperwork represents an awesome combination.

ASTROJET

09-07-2007, 09:08 AM

Am I missing something? If somebody is interested in the car,why not phone Matt in Hamilton?

Belair62

09-07-2007, 06:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
That L-89 is a pretty amazing car. I think that if I were interested in owning it I would settle for examination of the cowl and firewall vins. With the GM docs to back up the vin I could overlook a missing tag. It's great to know the history of these cars but just isn't possible in many instances. I've tried to track my cars and have history on most but not all and some of it is just hearsay anyway. I don't personally know this car or its owner but that paperwork represents an awesome combination.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to agree....if the body matches the paper this would be a cool car. Uncovering the background is also useful to determine value. People will put the car way down on their desirable list if there is persistent stories that haven't been addressed and look for another IMO. Not that L89's are a dime a dozen.

SMGCO

09-07-2007, 07:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
There may not be a line waiting to buy one but an L89 documented is gonna fetch some serious money still..real deal cars are still real money imho.

[/ QUOTE ]

So true ! Also, I know Richard and Phil to be very honorable and very good people. Not to mention the outstanding work they do.

camaromb

09-07-2007, 10:57 PM

Phil,
Yes the L89 looks amazing but as you well know not all cars are as they appear, especially some of the Canadian cars. The Canadian import sheets are great documentation and also incentives to save otherwise unsalvageabe cars.
With the right knowledge one can make a lost ownership claim In Canada for vehicles that don't exist in the record databases, such as the 5 ZL1s registered last year. Canadian paperwork is great but lets not forget its only a record of what came in to Canada many years ago. With the ability to get vin plates, trim tags, etc. sometimes all you may have in a rare car that is real is the paperwork!
In regards to the L89 in question I would like to see the vin tag, firewall stamp and the sheetmetal dates, it is original sheetmetal as described? Of course the original owner would solve all these issues. Unfortunately there is no record of him as of yet.
As usual, buyer beware without all the facts

Stefano

09-07-2007, 11:36 PM

Mark,
Well said and thanks for speaking up. This is one of the things, which make this such a great site!

I do not know the owners, restorers or even the car, in question so my response is not directed at them.

I just can't believe how naive some people can be. While "air" cars are not limited to Canadian doced cars there certainly has been a preponderance of them recreated in Canada, over the years.

While is seems that I may be in the minority, I'd rather have a car with a pedigree and verifiable history than one with no/questionable history and a stack of docs.

The car should be evaluated/stand on its own with docs as support.

While it would be ideal for all these cars to be "Survivors" with complete docs, the brutal facts are that such cars are a very select percentage of the total population.

Also, Since when is it not OK to ask a valid question regarding a car which is publicly for Sale? Since when do I have to post my balance sheet or financials in order to ask a valid question?

I have purchased more than one car from different members on this board which did not have an original trim tag.

Some reasons were known up front and easily explained while other reasons were not found out till years later.

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

09-08-2007, 02:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
.... The car should be evaluated/stand on its own with docs as support.....

Also, Since when is it not OK to ask a valid question regarding a car which is publicly for Sale? Since when do I have to post my balance sheet or financials in order to ask a valid question?....

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm gonna faint, I'm agreeing with Stefano!!http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif And some people think these threads divide us http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

BARN FIND

09-08-2007, 02:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think this thread has already got out of hand by a couple of individuals , they know who they are, the way i see it, is the owners of these fabulous rare cars have nothing to prove to anyone on this site. If you have a pocket full of money and want to buy a car of this caliber , go see it and I am sure you will get the whole story and proof on both cars , if I owned these cars i would not respond to all the wannabe car detectives with no money to purchase either of these cars,if you put your money where your mouth is, then, you would expect the owners will disclose all the information you would need to purchase such a high dollar rare car.there seems to be a few people on this site trying to get to the bottom of something for no reason ,just my opinion .

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is it that every time someone points out questionable things on PUBLICLY ADVERTISED cars, there is always someone that questions how much money the people asking the questions has? Here is a news flash for you WANNABBC, there are 4500 registered users on this site...I bet a bunch of them have a "pocket full of money" and coincidentally they are probably the ones asking the questions. Just my opinion.

Stefano

09-08-2007, 03:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
.... The car should be evaluated/stand on its own with docs as support.....

Also, Since when is it not OK to ask a valid question regarding a car which is publicly for Sale? Since when do I have to post my balance sheet or financials in order to ask a valid question?....

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm gonna faint, I'm agreeing with Stefano!!http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif And some people think these threads divide us http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The end of Days must be near if you and I agree on something http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I would have thought that you fainted back a few threads when Deuces were not Super Cars.

13.50s on skinnies thru the exhaust will give any new "factory" Mustang a run for the money. Including the Parnelli Jones/Saleen.

wannaBBC

09-08-2007, 08:43 PM

your news flash is well taken , but if you read my post, all I am saying is ,I think the questions are being directed to the wrong people If I was wanting or had the funds to purchase this car I would contact the owner personally not publically on this forum then research from there , i guess everybody does things a little differrent

Terry_z28

09-12-2007, 05:16 AM

am i the only one that is still waiting for a response from the owners???

Maxx

09-12-2007, 07:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Maxx, If it's possible can you show your tag from from your 1821 mile unrestored 1969 z28/rs.
Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

Maxx

09-12-2007, 07:32 AM

Attachment shown above is the only shot I have at this time. Why would a 69 car have a front spoiler and not a rear spoiler? Were all 1969 camaro standard front grilles painted silver by the factory?? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

Steve Shauger

09-12-2007, 04:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Attachment shown above is the only shot I have at this time. Why would a 69 car have a front spoiler and not a rear spoiler? Were all 1969 camaro standard front grilles painted silver by the factory?? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

All non RS cars got silver grille except for SS equipped cars which received black. All RS equipped cars received black grilles except for those painted black, which received silver grilles.

Z28's followed the above protocol as well:

Standard Z silver grille
RS/Z Black grille
RS/Z painted black would have a silver grille

Charles

09-27-2007, 02:01 AM

The much discussed Canadian L89 Camaro here does not appear to have come through Belmont Chev when it was new... It was not ordered by Belmont Chev.

Hylton

09-27-2007, 03:06 AM

How can you say that when the GM docs posted on the first page say otherwise?

firez

09-27-2007, 03:53 AM

One simple call to George at GM of Canada would tell us all were it was from.

Hylton

09-27-2007, 04:00 AM

I believe the docs to be legit so I want to know how Charles can make that claim?

Charles

09-27-2007, 05:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
How can you say that when the GM docs posted on the first page say otherwise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone looks at the performance cars with great interest today. However it should be remembered that these cars were a very small part of the overall volume at a dealership. These were special cars that were handled by only one or two people when it came to picking specifications and ordering units. Even today there is clear understanding of what was ordered due to the relatively small number of cars involved. The L89 is not in the 'memory bank'.

indyjps

09-27-2007, 05:34 AM

that was my thought. just to be clear Im not discounting the yellow car.
say you knew someone in Canada who in 1969 who bought an L89 car and proceded to wreck/destroy/scrap it, it would be possible to use an old registration to get the vin, order the Canadian paperwork, order a repop vin tag and recreate a documented car. you knew the car was destroyed in 1969 or whenever so there wouldnt be a conflict with another car with the same vin.

Charley Lillard

09-27-2007, 05:46 AM

Who's "Memory Bank" Charles ? Is this gonna be 20 questions ?

ZL1#17

09-27-2007, 05:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How can you say that when the GM docs posted on the first page say otherwise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone looks at the performance cars with great interest today. However it should be remembered that these cars were a very small part of the overall volume at a dealership. These were special cars that were handled by only one or two people when it came to picking specifications and ordering units. Even today there is clear understanding of what was ordered due to the relatively small number of cars involved. The L89 is not in the 'memory bank'.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the car was not ordered through Belmont, then why is the dealer listed on the GM of Canada paperwork?

Hylton

09-27-2007, 07:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How can you say that when the GM docs posted on the first page say otherwise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone looks at the performance cars with great interest today. However it should be remembered that these cars were a very small part of the overall volume at a dealership. These were special cars that were handled by only one or two people when it came to picking specifications and ordering units. Even today there is clear understanding of what was ordered due to the relatively small number of cars involved. The L89 is not in the 'memory bank'.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the car was not ordered through Belmont, then why is the dealer listed on the GM of Canada paperwork?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is possible that the car was originally ordered through Belmont but sold somewhere else. I don't believe this car is something a dealer would order without having a buyer for it. Central Chev Olds would have done it but not these guys.

Hylton

09-27-2007, 07:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
...say you knew someone in Canada who in 1969 who bought an L89 car and proceded to wreck/destroy/scrap it, it would be possible to use an old registration to get the vin, order the Canadian paperwork, order a repop vin tag and recreate a documented car. you knew the car was destroyed in 1969 or whenever so there wouldnt be a conflict with another car with the same vin.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

Rainer

09-27-2007, 08:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]

If the car was not ordered through Belmont, then why is the dealer listed on the GM of Canada paperwork?

[/ QUOTE ]

Or are you claiming the GM of Canada paperwork is fake, Charles?

Charles

09-27-2007, 04:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Who's "Memory Bank" Charles ? Is this gonna be 20 questions ?

[/ QUOTE ]

There already seem to have been a lot more than 20 unanswered questions posted here.
The person who ordered the performance cars at Belmont Chev does not recognize this yellow L89 as being one of the cars that the dealer received.

Hylton

09-27-2007, 04:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who's "Memory Bank" Charles ? Is this gonna be 20 questions ?

[/ QUOTE ]

There already seem to have been a lot more than 20 unanswered questions posted here.
The person who ordered the performance cars at Belmont Chev does not recognize this yellow L89 as being one of the cars that the dealer received.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if you are that person then thanks for the insight but it is still possible that the car was sold to another dealer before it even saw the Belmont lot. Could it be possible that the car was delivered and sold when you just happened to be on vacation? Again, I do not question the GM of Canada docs posted on the first page.

427king

09-27-2007, 09:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The person who ordered the performance cars at Belmont Chev does not recognize this yellow L89 as being one of the cars that the dealer received

[/ QUOTE ] I have two RI hiperf cars [ and a copo camaro]that the guy that ordered them doesnt remember,You cant expect someone to remember every car they dealt with 40 years ago. Just because soemone doesnt remember a specific car, doesnt mean it didnt exist. I would say anyone that is interested in that L89,pay 40 damn dollars and get the paperwork, it will show the dealer and there will be no refuting anything if the dealer on the canada paperwork comes up as Belmont. I mean do you think someone is actually going to claim a car has canadfa paperwork, and then have you contact gm canada and find out it wasnt,seems ridiculous.

Keith Tedford

09-27-2007, 10:54 PM

The GM of Canada paperwork merely states that the information applies to serial number such and such. No one comes out and verifies that your car is the real deal and not a fake. I have the paperwork for our two Chevelles. Nice to have but just part of the documentation. Any car needs to be checked out VERY carefully.....especially these days. In the last couple of days a guy recognized his old Chevelle on e-bay. It amazingly has the original engine that he didn't sell the car with. Someone else did the restoration too. AMAZING. People with legitimate cars should be more than glad to send their cars through the baptism of fire on the Yenko.net or Chevelles.com websites. Not much gets past these guys. I think that what the Belmont guy might be saying is that this car may not be on the list. The UVIP on '69 el Camino only goes back 3 owners. This indicates that it came from out of province before the first guy bought it. The Camaro may have come into Ontario at some point.;)

PeteLeathersac

09-27-2007, 11:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
...do you think someone is actually going to claim a car has canada paperwork, and then have you contact gm canada and find out it wasnt,seems ridiculous...

[/ QUOTE ]

I want to be clear I'm only addressing Chuck's statement above and in no way referring to the Camaro of this thread...but check this link out, no not GM Canada paperwork that was forged but as close as it gets, PHS docs..
And the fraudulent document part is all I'm pointing out...the rest of this situation and why this buyer recv'd what he did is a different story on it's own..

http://reviews.ebay.ca/GTO-JUDGE-SCAM_W0QQugidZ10000000001493069?ssPageName=BUYGD:C AT:-1:LISTINGS:1

Otherwise, I believe Keith's comments above about 'these days' are right on...sad yes but what things have become in today's world of values..

~ Pete
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

427king

09-28-2007, 12:22 AM

The odd thing to me is most believe every non doc,wrong drivetrain X44 is a real copo as long as a hole, fuel line or heater box appear with it , but have a hard time with a canada paper car. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Charles

09-28-2007, 12:24 AM

More information about the L89 Camaro sold through Belmont Chev. The L89 was confirmed again TODAY by GM of Canada as that serial number Camaro being delivered to Belmont Chev with those options. The guy still does not remember the car being at Belmont Chev and suggests that it may have been done as a Central Office Production Order instead; then still going to that dealer for the customer to pick up.
As Terry would say 'appears to be the real deal'.

Keith Tedford

09-28-2007, 02:16 AM

Being an RPO, there doesn't seem to be any reason for this to be a COPO deal.

Charley Lillard

06-07-2017, 02:21 PM

camaromb

06-07-2017, 03:18 PM

Yes, the story of how this car was created is known to a small group of dedicated Camaro guys.

EZ Nova

06-07-2017, 03:44 PM

This fake car is for sale again.
http://www.cars-on-line.com/gen3-cars/col1/posting/89129

Now owned by a company in Keswick Ontario. If anyone in the US buys this they will have a hard time taking to court a company that probably has no assets. I believe I know who built it, who they got the donor body from etc.

I was just checking that car out yesterday. SUCKS that it's a repop/copy!!!!

Just as bad as the Rag LS-6.

http://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1276261#post1276261

Too bad, those are nice cars if they owners were just up front and told the customers what they are, IF THEY REALLY KNOW THEMSELVES?????

CamaroNOS

06-07-2017, 11:29 PM

Here is a picture of the VIN tag from the dash. This picture is in the listing on the Cars-On-Line ad.

There in no picture of the Trim Tag. VIN 124379N553588

95077

camaromb

06-08-2017, 02:58 PM

Looks new, not a surprise.

Kurt S

06-08-2017, 05:32 PM

Tag used to have some blatant errors on it. Curious if it's been 'fixed'.

124379N553588

resto4u

06-10-2017, 11:59 PM

fake canadian docs?

Stefano

06-12-2017, 07:50 PM

The VIN was built by GM as a real L89. Car disappeared many years ago, with no trace. Was revived based on the Canadian Docs, but VIN and trim tag are said to have been reproduced and affixed to a body which had nothing to do with the original VIN or tags.

I am not stating this as first hand knowledge, just what I have learned researching the back ground history as this car was offered to me for purchase.

It is my understanding that there is virtually nothing from the original car included.

TexasT

01-18-2018, 04:35 PM

https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/cars-for-sale/chevrolet/camaro/2006192.html

Anyone willing to elaborate more on this car? A friend of a friend has interest. My thought is you couldn't build it for $70k. If it runs n drives well, drive it and have a good time.

L78M22Rag

01-18-2018, 04:51 PM

What might happen if the real Daytona Yellow L89 Camaro surfaces at some point, perhaps after a long slumber in someone's garage or basement?

Would it be a case of musical chairs... a problem for the owner of the car at that time? Or would it also be a problem for anyone that owned the car after the time it was recreated?

Stefano

01-18-2018, 05:07 PM

Such a scenario can get very messy. Usually the original hidden VINs override the public VINs especially if supported by a chain of ownership.

Since its a Canadian car and a VIN search was performed, at that point another car with that VIN did not exist in the public eye.

67BelAir427

01-18-2018, 05:24 PM

The two guys who found the car have this one for sale now.

http://www.yenko.net/forum/showthread.php?t=146647

Maybe they can answer any questions about the history of the Camaro ?

fsc66

01-18-2018, 05:36 PM

Well window sticker is for sure a repro, I'll look over Vintage paperwork a little more thoroughly.

Paul

TimG

01-18-2018, 06:54 PM

Issues like this happen in Shelbyland often. Car is totaled, VIN tag used to create another car, totaled car is repaired with same VIN. Ouch.....

Stefano

01-18-2018, 09:42 PM

Shelbyland........recently in a land not to far away a believed long lost Shelby Mustang is unentombed, when the original owner dies.

A Shelby history search is performed by the Registrar and the car same car exists in another state with a different owner. Had the car for many years, show accolades and all. The Shelby Club member had stolen the identity of the car as no history had ever been reported. Fake Tags and VINs stamped on aprons.

The original car, still owned by the original family / estate, along with original tags even had an original build sheet still in the car.

Crush

01-18-2018, 10:37 PM

Wow!!

bergy

01-18-2018, 11:18 PM

That's awful!

Realistically, the fake car only had one of three:
- documentation (Marti Report) - yes, could even have Lois E's factory docs
- ownership history from new (or a long time) with contacts - probably not
- expert inspection certification (generally can spot wrong characters & welds) - probably not

There are cars in the Cobra registry that have 2 cars riding around with the same vin on them & they are so noted in the public registry.

Charley Lillard

01-19-2018, 03:22 AM

Issues like this happen in Shelbyland often. Car is totaled, VIN tag used to create another car, totaled car is repaired with same VIN. Ouch.....
This one is different. There was no wrecked car to take tags from. They got the cars info off another GM of Canada sheet before they started blacking out parts of the list. There is nothing from the orig L89 that vin belonged to on this car.

EZ Nova

01-21-2018, 01:32 PM

Charley or others, question for you guys who are "in-the'know":

Could the site have a area, not just a thread, that people can post cars, either good or bad, for future reference.

Much like the "dealer" section that then breaks down by some dealers? Maybe like it by manufacturers and then post cars that are known legit, and like the Chevelle and Camaro list here, are posted as a known "problem" or rebody or outright scam. The site that could be the keep of know fakes, good one and also when bodys and engine are reunited....

Just a thought. Even post VIN's as well

x77-69z28

01-21-2018, 03:42 PM

Great idea!
Buddy

1crossram

11-14-2019, 06:00 AM

Wondering what ever happened to this car?

70LT1Z28

11-14-2019, 11:06 AM

The 69 L89 is still here just sold again 3 months ago for $90k

ZAPPER68

01-02-2020, 03:34 AM

Interesting thread...I've had a quick speed read through it and will make a casual comment. My neighbour back in small town Saskatchewan owned a yellow '69 L89 Camaro, which I have made mention of here previously. I don't know if this is the same car but there are too many similarities to ignore. Rod's car had a yellow houndstooth interior, a 4 speed and 4:10 gears that I can attest to.

Rod L bought the Camaro after he sold his '65 4 speed Buick Wildcat...Here's the Camaro story as told to me by Rod a few years ago and from my impressionable memory back then.

In Late '69 or early '70 Rod sold his Wildcat and bought the Camaro off a used car lot in Alberta. Initially, the car was a high school graduation present (from Grandma) for some lucky kid in Southern Saskatchewan. The car scared him and he 'got rid of it'...

Rod, our neighbour, was the second owner and lived/worked in Calgary Alberta at the time. One of his buddies at the time owned a '69 428 4 speed CJ Mach I that I eventually bought from him. The two of them used to street race and thrashed the hell out of their cars.

Time goes on...Rod sells his Camaro, Dennis sells his Mach I (to me) and the L89 engine out of Rod's Camaro eventually ends up in a jet boat here in BC. Whomever ended up with the Camaro discovers it's 'kind of rare' and looks for the engine, finds it and re-unites it with the car.

Years ago Rod sent me a picture of him and his old Camaro at the 'World of Wheels' show in Calgary. I still have that picture somewhere in this computer. Rod is still alive and strangely has moved back into his parents house next door to where mine used to live. Rod told me the car was making its rounds on the show car circuit and ended up with a collector in the USA.

The last time I saw and spoke to Rod was at my Aunt's Celebration of Life in September of 2016. Although Rod's health is failing, he's still with us and will be able to shed more light on his old Camaro if need be. :-)

JamesinHBCA

01-02-2020, 01:53 PM

prototype

01-02-2020, 03:24 PM

There is a car that fits this story to a T.......with a couple exceptions.

Ted Brooks Chevrolet in Calgary sold a yellow/yellow houndstooth, 4spd, L72 COPO RS

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/mscp-1204-1969-chevy-camaro-rs/

Interesting thread...I've had a quick speed read through it and will make a casual comment. My neighbour back in small town Saskatchewan owned a yellow '69 L89 Camaro, which I have made mention of here previously. I don't know if this is the same car but there are too many similarities to ignore. Rod's car had a yellow houndstooth interior, a 4 speed and 4:10 gears that I can attest to.

Rod L bought the Camaro after he sold his '65 4 speed Buick Wildcat...Here's the Camaro story as told to me by Rod a few years ago and from my impressionable memory back then.

In Late '69 or early '70 Rod sold his Wildcat and bought the Camaro off a used car lot in Alberta. Initially, the car was a high school graduation present (from Grandma) for some lucky kid in Southern Saskatchewan. The car scared him and he 'got rid of it'...

Rod, our neighbour, was the second owner and lived/worked in Calgary Alberta at the time. One of his buddies at the time owned a '69 428 4 speed CJ Mach I that I eventually bought from him. The two of them used to street race and thrashed the hell out of their cars.

Time goes on...Rod sells his Camaro, Dennis sells his Mach I (to me) and the L89 engine out of Rod's Camaro eventually ends up in a jet boat here in BC. Whomever ended up with the Camaro discovers it's 'kind of rare' and looks for the engine, finds it and re-unites it with the car.

Years ago Rod sent me a picture of him and his old Camaro at the 'World of Wheels' show in Calgary. I still have that picture somewhere in this computer. Rod is still alive and strangely has moved back into his parents house next door to where mine used to live. Rod told me the car was making its rounds on the show car circuit and ended up with a collector in the USA.

The last time I saw and spoke to Rod was at my Aunt's Celebration of Life in September of 2016. Although Rod's health is failing, he's still with us and will be able to shed more light on his old Camaro if need be. :-)