Would a 435HP vette be considered a SUPERCAR?

[HiHorse]

I don't have a 427 Camaro/Chevelle but would a 1969 427/435HP L71 Corvette be considered a SUPERCAR? Is a 396/375HP L78 Camaro SS a SUPERCAR?

[SuperNovaSS]

I don't think it really matters. That is like asking if a car is a muscle car. If you like it, enjoy it. To answer the question, I think most here consider supercars to be dealer built or factory special built to qualify for racing.


Jason

[Belair62]

For this site..we define it simply

[ QUOTE ]
Dedicated to the promotion and preservation of the Chevrolet dealer
built Supercars and COPO cars.



[/ QUOTE ]

[69hurstSC]

it is a very loaded question actually. as belair62 stated by the website description its dedicated to the CHEVROLET dealer built supercar and COPO cars. however, a 69 Hurst SC/rambler is a dealer built racecar specifically designed to compete in F Stock dragracing. and the SC in SC/rambler stands for Super Car. i am to young to know when exactly the term Super Car was placed on dealer installed and factory prepared automobiles, but i would be just plain lying to you if i said this was only a Chevy thing.

[TimG]

I think that if you talk about the L89, L88 and ZL1 Corvettes, yes. I'd include the '71 LS6 in this group, also. You've got aluminum heads, solid lifter and tri-power in the case of the L89. These are racing cars with high dollar options that were in extremely low production when available. If you've ever driven a well tuned L89 Corvette, you'd classify it as a Supercar. I mean no disrespect for an L78, L72 or L71 Corvette, but these were certainly more mainstream Corvettes with a fair number made.

[Steve Shauger]

[ QUOTE ]
it is a very loaded question actually. as belair62 stated by the website description its dedicated to the CHEVROLET dealer built supercar and COPO cars. however, a 69 Hurst SC/rambler is a dealer built racecar specifically designed to compete in F Stock dragracing. and the SC in SC/rambler stands for Super Car. i am to young to know when exactly the term Super Car was placed on dealer installed and factory prepared automobiles, but i would be just plain lying to you if i said this was only a Chevy thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

No one said Supercar were "only a Chevy thing". However this sites original intent was: Dedicated to the promotion and preservation of the Chevrolet dealer
built Supercars and COPO cars.

All featured Supercars are Chevrolets http://www.yenko.net/features/featurecars.htm

[PPPJJJFFF]

The definition of a "Supercar". I see them as factory or dealer prepped high horsepower, low production muscle cars. Produced by many manufacturers. Not just Chevrolet.

That defintion differs from the Yenko/Copo Supercars focused on this site. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Patrick

[69LM1]

Like most things, why get caught up in rigid "rules". Although this site started as a chevrolet COPO and Dealer Site (at least when I started coming here) that was mostly camaro's and chevelles, it has become so much more. I remember when Deuce's became all the rage. Then came the discussions about the Deuce being a "supercar", but only a 350 car. That went on for a while. Finally, my 70 Z28 COPO was discussed. It is a COPO, but the COPO option was a spoiler package. How would that compare to a non "supercar" L78?

I say let's just enjoy em for what they are, and a 427 vette sure is a "super" car if it's not a "supercar".
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Rich

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Not so. The Deuce has been here since the beginning! The same discussions about the Deuce w/ it's Z28 drivetrain was just another rehash about the '69 Camaro with it's Impala L72 drivetrain.... If it's got a performance COPO #, or a dealer transplant/supertune - it's in! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif Heck, the stingers, vegas, & turbo Z's are 'SuperCars' http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Steve Shauger]

[ QUOTE ]
Not so. The Deuce has been here since the beginning! The same discussions about the Deuce w/ it's Z28 drivetrain was just another rehash about the '69 Camaro with it's Impala L72 drivetrain.... If it's got a performance COPO #, or a dealer transplant/supertune - it's in! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif Heck, the stingers, vegas, & turbo Z's are 'SuperCars' http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

How about big spoiler cars http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Does they improve your ET on the 1320'? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Charley Lillard]

It does only if it has a certified LM1. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[HiHorse]

The 1970 L78 Camaro is rarer than a 1969 427 COPO Camaro, why is that not in the SUPERcar category.
The L78 has square ports, 11 to 1's, solid cam, 4 bolt main,forged pistons, dimple rods,780 holley,etc same as the COPO, it is a race car same as COPO. The L72/L71/L78 Corvettes are race cars also, basically with same motors. Now the L88/ZL1 these are truely special race engines in a higher category. I think that if you call a L72 COPO Camaro a supercar then a L72 Vette is also one.

[69LM1]

[ QUOTE ]
It does only if it has a certified LM1. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Now Dr. Seuss, why do I fee like this is the Star-Belly Sneetches discussion?

I know what I've got and I am happy with it. Which was my point. Who would'nt be happy with that vette this thread is about?

Finally, I'll never understand how a Deuce with a LT1 (which was the exact same engine in my 70 Z) is considered a "supercar" and a L78 is not. If the criteria is ET times, than how is the L78 "just" a camaro and the 1980ish Yenko "turbo"Z a "supercar"?

[Charley Lillard]

LOL......just having fun.

[69LM1]

[ QUOTE ]
Does they improve your ET on the 1320'? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

And some stickers that say "Deuce" do? And as far as the COPO Z's, yes, it is a proven fact that there was a peformance increase in Trans Am racing.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[69LM1]

Damn, Guess I was too thin skinned. Should have used a http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif.

Cmon, admit it charley, you're jealous because you don't HAVE a LM1 in your collection! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

And, that was a joke! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Charley Lillard]

Let me pull a plug wire and I can get the same feeling without having to buy a car.....LOL

[ORIGLS6]

OK, I know I'll regret this but let's give it a try anyway.

The L-78 Camaro you reference, although a rare animal for 1970, was in fact available to the general public through ANY Chevy Dealer, just like the 435 HP Corvette. The LT-1 Nova (aka Deuce) was NOT an RPO code for the Nova in 1970. It was a specially built car made possible through the COPO process. General consensus here (the Supercar Registry/ sYc) is that RPO optioned cars DO NOT fall into the 'SUPERCAR' category as defined by this site.

Another example: In 1968 an automatic transmission WAS NOT available to the general public behind the L-78 in a Nova. Fifty of those cars were built; COPO 9738. In 1969 it was available to the general public so the M-40 equipped L-78 Novas in '69 & '70 are not considered SUPERCARS.

Confusing? It really has nothing to do with huge horsepower, or whether it's a BBC or SBC. It's more about Factory/Dealer built specialty cars here.

On other sites you'll find other SUPERCARS, such as Ferraris, Lambos, Maseratis, etc. It just depends on where you are.

[camarojoe]

Well said Cumby, and right on. The only thing I would add is that the COPO order in question needed to be some sort of performance oriented change or upgrade, not to build a taxi cab or work truck. To answer the original question quite simply.... no.

[ORIGLS6]

[ QUOTE ]
To answer the original question quite simply.... no.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif Now why didn't I think of that! Ask me for the time and I'll tell you how to build a watch! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[69LM1]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, I know I'll regret this but let's give it a try anyway.

The L-78 Camaro you reference, although a rare animal for 1970, was in fact available to the general public through ANY Chevy Dealer, just like the 435 HP Corvette. The LT-1 Nova (aka Deuce) was NOT an RPO code for the Nova in 1970. It was a specially built car made possible through the COPO process. General consensus here (the Supercar Registry/ sYc) is that RPO optioned cars DO NOT fall into the 'SUPERCAR' category as defined by this site.

Another example: In 1968 an automatic transmission WAS NOT available to the general public behind the L-78 in a Nova. Fifty of those cars were built; COPO 9738. In 1969 it was available to the general public so the M-40 equipped L-78 Novas in '69 & '70 are not considered SUPERCARS.

Confusing? It really has nothing to do with huge horsepower, or whether it's a BBC or SBC. It's more about Factory/Dealer built specialty cars here.

On other sites you'll find other SUPERCARS, such as Ferraris, Lambos, Maseratis, etc. It just depends on where you are.

[/ QUOTE ]


OK, then how about the 70 Z28 COPO? It was tied closely to trans am racing? It was not available generally, and less than 500 were made?

Do I get a star on my belly? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[Belair62]

No...but you are getting a red bullseye and we are going to use Tabasco coated pellets

[427king]

What is an LM1?

[69LM1]

http://www.69lm1.com

Basically, the 69 version of the 1967-68 L30/M20, but with less HP (255hp) but with many high performace options. They came with 12 bolt multi rear's and the base transmission was a muncie instead of the saginaw. Like the L30/M20, they had no external badging. Just a cool (In Charlie and I's opinion http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif ) sleeper smallblock type car. Many are poverty cap cars, which make them look like.........

[69LM1]

[ QUOTE ]
No...but you are getting a red bullseye and we are going to use Tabasco coated pellets

[/ QUOTE ]

N'awlins remember? Tobasco is good on anything! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Late BrakeU2]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, I know I'll regret this but let's give it a try anyway.

The L-78 Camaro you reference, although a rare animal for 1970, was in fact available to the general public through ANY Chevy Dealer, just like the 435 HP Corvette. The LT-1 Nova (aka Deuce) was NOT an RPO code for the Nova in 1970. It was a specially built car made possible through the COPO process. General consensus here (the Supercar Registry/ sYc) is that RPO optioned cars DO NOT fall into the 'SUPERCAR' category as defined by this site.

Another example: In 1968 an automatic transmission WAS NOT available to the general public behind the L-78 in a Nova. Fifty of those cars were built; COPO 9738. In 1969 it was available to the general public so the M-40 equipped L-78 Novas in '69 & '70 are not considered SUPERCARS.

Confusing? It really has nothing to do with huge horsepower, or whether it's a BBC or SBC. It's more about Factory/Dealer built specialty cars here.

On other sites you'll find other SUPERCARS, such as Ferraris, Lambos, Maseratis, etc. It just depends on where you are.

[/ QUOTE ]

O.K ..so if it's agreed that any RPO cars are excluded semantically from Supercar reverence,do the GMMG C5R race case cars qualify? They were only available through a limited dealer network-just like Bill Thomas/Dana/Nickey/Yenko,and were even emissions legal.Before you call them tuner cars,remember they share the same GM motorsports blocks which are in the ALMS Vettes that have won over 40 races from Lemans to Sebring to Daytona-pretty much mirroring what the L88's accomplished nearly forty years earlier.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[kwhizz]

Another thing to consider.......is if the Car has a "Caution Fan Sticker".......... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[camarojoe]

A supercar does not have to be a COPO ordered car if it is dealer modified...Ala Baldwin-Motion. Most if not all Motion cars were RPO ordered cars from GM, but were heavily modified from there, similar to the newer cars you're talking about. If an RPO ordered 435hp Corvette (the car mentioned in the original question) was modified at Motion, Yenko, etc. then it WOULD be considered a Supercar, even though it was not a COPO. This topic is as simple to some/difficult to others as the "what is a rebody" thread. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Paul D]

Is a 1963 Z-11 a Super Car?

[69hurstSC]

so a police car built by chevrolet is a RPO and not a supercar? what if said police car came with hi-po parts and special suspension?

who needs some popcorn....or a gun! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

[camarojoe]

A police car is a police car. RPO, COPO, COP Co., whatever... if its black and white with 4 door handles it ain't a supercar. Gimme that gun. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[69hurstSC]

and one last thing.. is the Pete Estes built 68 Z28 vert considered a SuperCar?

[camarojoe]

That's a good question... personally, I just think it's a specially made convertible Z, and am glad they only built 1. I'll run for cover now with my popcorn and my gun... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I admitedly don't know much about how the '63 Z11's were built/ordered, but I'm guessing they'd fall into the category of Supercar pretty easily but I'm not sure...was the Z11 option an RPO? I guess if it was, they're not "Supercars" by definition, but are bad ass either way. The same can be said for many cars of the era.

[m22mike]

[ QUOTE ]
Another thing to consider.......is if the Car has a "Caution Fan Sticker".......... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait a darn minute here....I want equal time for the up side down cowl induction seal too ! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Mike A

[Belair62]

Z11 was an RPO...those were in the days of the FACTORY wars...as was Super Duty and Max Wedge stuff...the dawning of an era that made COPO cars possible.

[Xplantdad]

My head hurts... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[markjohnson]

I'm sorry but c'mon, the Z-11 Impala is definitely a Supercar. Easily one of the most "Supercars" the General ever sent out the door. It was so wicked, GM themselves banned them after mid-year it was so wild. Aluminum nose, 13:1 compression, practically had a tunnel ram on top of the motor. Let's not even mention that beautiful air cleaner. I've gotta lot of respect for LT-1's but I would line up a '63 Z-11 against a Deuce Nova any day of the week.

[camarojoe]

[ QUOTE ]
I've gotta lot of respect for LT-1's but I would line up a '63 Z-11 against a Deuce Nova any day of the week.

[/ QUOTE ]

Once again... nothing to do with what a supercar is or isn't. The 435hp vette in the original question would beat a deuce too, but it's still not a supercar by definition. Sorry.

[Steve Shauger]

The original credo of this site was:
Dedicated to the promotion and preservation of the Chevrolet dealer built Supercars and COPO cars.

Now that statement was intended to be the focus for THIS site. We are all in agreement that a supercar is many things to many people and there are other site that focus on Supercars outside this sites definition.

You will also note that this site has morphed into a site that discusses many other brand cars and the home index page reflects this with the addition of members rides and other muscle. I think being a focused site rather than a more general has enabled us to uncover the many unknown facts and mysteries of how these cars were conceived, built and distributed.

If someone want to start a forum for factory lightweights, make a request to the moderators to add one to the index. To me no cars have been excluded, however, I for one would like the sites credo to stay as is.

The members of this site offer a wealth of information to all enthusiasts and it is appreciated by all.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

It's not just HP, rarity, cool options, etc.... We as a group just think that the COPO pipeline being used for performance options & dealer skunkworks are cool enough to devote a site to it - and a show, and drag race, and memorabilia....

An LT1 in a Deuce combination is no different than an L72 in a Camaro - both combo's were available in other cars, but they were special for the Nova and Camaro. These combo's don't have to beat other RPO combo's to 'earn' a place in the SuperCar world... Silly as they seem to some, the big spoiler COPO is 'in' - if for no other reason than to add to the debate! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Sorry, LM1's get kicked to the curb.

[Steve Shauger]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not just HP, rarity, cool options, etc.... We as a group just think that the COPO pipeline being used for performance options & dealer skunkworks are cool enough to devote a site to it - and a show, and drag race, and memorabilia....

An LT1 in a Deuce combination is no different than an L72 in a Camaro - both combo's were available in other cars, but they were special for the Nova and Camaro. These combo's don't have to beat other RPO combo's to 'earn' a place in the SuperCar world... Silly as they seem to some, the big spoiler COPO is 'in' - if for no other reason than to add to the debate! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Sorry, LM1's get kicked to the curb.

[/ QUOTE ]


OK, how about a certified LM1 with dog dish wheels ?

[69LM1]

Sorry, I had to fly to Columbus, OH to rebuild some servers.

Ahhhhh, OK.

I'll be here till sat. Any cool tracks out this way?

Rich
Whose "certified" LM1 is home!

[Stefano]

Then how about a 1967 COPO Pace Car. The special paint must have reduced the wind resistance/drag, thus enhancing performance.

[Schonyenko2]

Once again... nothing to do with what a supercar is or isn't. The 435hp vette in the original question would beat a deuce too, but it's still not a supercar by definition. Sorry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on the rear ratio. Alot of those 435hp vettes had 308 rears. They'd run 150 + http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif but not that fast in the qtr. A friend of mine bought one thinking he was gonna blow us all away. (This was in late 70)I ran him with my L78 nova and beat him by almost a car length. After we passed the qtr mile mark, he blew by and just kept goin. 3 weeks later, he got drunk, and wrecked it. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

If you are in Columbus then just go east on rt 70 to National Trail Raceway - I think it's exit 126, where they sell 110 octane at the pump.

[PPPJJJFFF]

[ QUOTE ]


Once again... nothing to do with what a supercar is or isn't. The 435hp vette in the original question would beat a deuce too, but it's still not a supercar by definition. Sorry.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on the rear ratio. Alot of those 435hp vettes had 308 rears. They'd run 150 + http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif but not that fast in the qtr. A friend of mine bought one thinking he was gonna blow us all away. (This was in late 70)I ran him with my L78 nova and beat him by almost a car length. After we passed the qtr mile mark, he blew by and just kept goin. 3 weeks later, he got drunk, and wrecked it. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Going back to the original question, I wouldn't include the 435hp vettes only because of their production #'s. One think they are not is rare. Personally, the Yenko Deuce I would define as border line "Supercar" muscle car. To me you have to have big torque or horsepower #'s. They make up for that in low production #'s, dealer prepped car with great cosmetics to duke it out. This is only my perspective.

Patrick

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

".....border line "Supercar" muscle car..... "

Folks keep trying to combine the 'Supercar' with HP/torque stuff. This site allows the 'Supercar' status to stand behind performance oriented COPO's and dealer modified stuff - it can be a stinger corvair, a yenko vega or a ZL1 Camaro.

The mainstream will forever debate the definition of 'muscle car' by attempting to put 'power' numbers around it. However, I think the best def. was simple: "a powerful engine in a light body". A '69 Z does not have high HP or Torque, but few would argue that it's a 'muscle car'. The LM1 however.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[Schonyenko2]

Where I was going with the above statement is that my stock deuce, was faster than my stock L78 nova, so the big block high torque to validate a muscle car theory can't dismiss power to weight ratio.
It's not just my experience alone. Talk to Moses Long, Earl, and Linda Roof, and the gentleman who originally owned Tommy K's deuce. All original owners who ran the streets and had the amazingly same experiences. None of us were scared of much out there.

[69LM1]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are in Columbus then just go east on rt 70 to National Trail Raceway - I think it's exit 126, where they sell 110 octane at the pump.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool, if I get out of this data center early enough, I'll head out that way.

Marlin, you own both a LT1 deuce and a L78 Nova, what's your take?

Rich

[PPPJJJFFF]

[ QUOTE ]
".....border line "Supercar" muscle car..... "

Folks keep trying to combine the 'Supercar' with HP/torque stuff. This site allows the 'Supercar' status to stand behind performance oriented COPO's and dealer modified stuff - it can be a stinger corvair, a yenko vega or a ZL1 Camaro.

The mainstream will forever debate the definition of 'muscle car' by attempting to put 'power' numbers around it. However, I think the best def. was simple: "a powerful engine in a light body". A '69 Z does not have high HP or Torque, but few would argue that it's a 'muscle car'. The LM1 however.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

With all due respect. I'm using my own definition of a "Supercar". Not this sites (which I understand and respect). If you want "Supercar" status. I believe high torque, high horsepower is a must to start. That's just me. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Of course a Z is a muscle car. Just not a "Supercar".

Patrick

[ANDY M]

Rich, I sent you a pm.
If you want to go to National Trails, Click here:
http://www.nationaltrailraceway.com/apcm...rack%20Schedule (http://www.nationaltrailraceway.com/apcm/templates/schedule.asp?articleid=17791&zoneid=45&navsource=T rack%20Schedule)
Have a great time either way. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif
Andy

[ORIGLS6]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, I know I'll regret this but let's give it a try anyway.



Confusing? It really has nothing to do with huge horsepower, or whether it's a BBC or SBC. It's more about Factory/Dealer built specialty cars here.



[/ QUOTE ]


http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif I knew I'd regret it! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Mr. LM1 - I've not driven my L78 Nova yet, I've got another 10 years to go on that one - when Benjamin turns 16! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif However, having driven L78's and my LT1..... I would have to hand it to the LT1. It's a completely different animal, especially when the RPM's are singing their song!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

[ORIGLS6]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a completely different animal, especially when the RPM's are singing their song!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Sweet music. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[HiHorse]

SUPERCAR has an interesting definition, the ZL1 Camaro of which 69 were ordered through COPO which was not easily available to public is a SUPERCAR BUT the ZL1 Corvette which were easily available, ordered through RPO available to general public of which only 2 were made is not a SUPERCAR. I understand completely, I think.

[Verne_Frantz]

I can't believe this thread has gone on this long. Who really should care if that Vette should be considered a Supercar.?? If it was a BM Vette, then YES. "By definition"!! A stock L-78 Camaro or Chevelle, or any other "stock" RPO car does NOT fit the description. They are Musclecars. "Supercars" were dealer conversion hi-po cars, or COPO cars. That's it in my mind. NO gray area there for me.

I probably should have just kept my mouth shut, since I only own pre-historic musclecar stuff. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gifVerne

[Salvatore]

Thank God for Verne! Only SB Supercar out there would be any dealer installed SB in a Vega. Motion, Scuncio, Harrell etc. And don't let me here any of you old timers say there is a comparison between a good running SB and a good running L78. I have been a SB man all my life and still am but comparing the 2......... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

[kwhizz]

I probably should have just kept my mouth shut, since I only own pre-historic musclecar stuff.

Verne


With "Truck" Engines......LOL http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/youguysrock.gif

[Salvatore]

Sorry Ken, You are wrong! With boat anchors!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif But our buddy Pete the motor man has one 62 solidly in the mid nines and another 62 on the verge of a nine second run on a new motor. Both over 135 mph with 4 speeds. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[Belair62]

I got your "truck motor" Kwizzer... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[L34Pace]

[ QUOTE ]
Then how about a 1967 COPO Pace Car. The special paint must have reduced the wind resistance/drag, thus enhancing performance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Too bad GM didn't understand how lucrative the "replica" market was back in 1967 maybe they would have built more? I guess the concept of offering something novel and unique caught on in later years http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Verne_Frantz]

[ QUOTE ]
I got your "truck motor" Kwizzer... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

What he said! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[kwhizz]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/youguysrock.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/youguysrock.gif

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[PPPJJJFFF]

[ QUOTE ]
SUPERCAR has an interesting definition, the ZL1 Camaro of which 69 were ordered through COPO which was not easily available to public is a SUPERCAR BUT the ZL1 Corvette which were easily available, ordered through RPO available to general public of which only 2 were made is not a SUPERCAR. I understand completely, I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

ZL1 corvette = Supercar in my book! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Patrick

[ktownkid]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayIS...5234038&rd= (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=006&sspagename=STRK%3AME WA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=160155234038&rd=)

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Verne_Frantz]

Probably just retired from service last month. When you say Sissy sells shakes, does it sound like you're whistling??

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[nuch_ss396]

OK! A fire truck with a 409? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[ktownkid]

Verne......
I'm on your side......would love a 409......even in a fire truck!!!!!!!!

[Belair62]

Pretty cool fire truck...

[HiHorse]

[/ QUOTE ]

ZL1 corvette = Supercar in my book! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Patrick

[/ QUOTE ]

The 1969 ZL1 Corvette is not a SUPERCAR by definition, its only another square port car that was available to the mass public that wasn't ordered through COPO.
I hope this helps.

[Steve Shauger]

[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]

ZL1 corvette = Supercar in my book! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Patrick

[/ QUOTE ]

The 1969 ZL1 Corvette is not a SUPERCAR by definition, its only another square port car that was available to the mass public that wasn't ordered through COPO.
I hope this helps.

[/ QUOTE ]

If anyone doesn't get it by now, they will never get it! Talk about beating a dead horse...Geez http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[LS6 RAT]

I think it's been made quite clear to those of us who don't have a supercar by this sites definition.

[427king]

Imagine going to a show with your ZL1 corvette and trying to park in the section that is marked "supercars", only to be told youd have to park in the 1968 to 1972 corvette section because the last spot was taken by a 69 LM1 camaro paint delete car. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[LS6 RAT]

Wow, that's a good one!

[Steve Shauger]

[ QUOTE ]
Imagine going to a show with your ZL1 corvette and trying to park in the section that is marked "supercars", only to be told youd have to park in the 1968 to 1972 corvette section because the last spot was taken by a 69 LM1 camaro paint delete car. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the last spot would probably be for one of your rare supercamels. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[Born30YrsLate]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Imagine going to a show with your ZL1 corvette and trying to park in the section that is marked "supercars", only to be told youd have to park in the 1968 to 1972 corvette section because the last spot was taken by a 69 LM1 camaro paint delete car. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the last spot would probably be for one of your rare supercamels. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't those rare supercamels come with the "double hump" heads?...

[JIM]

Let me follow this then would my 70 and 71 Impala 4 doors complete with their hand written COPO paperwork for Police job, one off color/int Red/Gold for the 70, 350 Hp engine, special gauges, HD cooling, and susp qualify? Then would the 71 with its blank paint Hd cooling special double pulley everything, HD wagon susp under a 4dr ,BB police Hd valvetrain and Nodular manifolds qualify as well. Always wanted to know where these fell into things. Just curious, http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif They can both hang with the Supercars on the Top End !!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif
Jim http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[Belair62]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif

[Verne_Frantz]

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. This thread is really getting STUPID!

[TC]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif

I can see where this is going!


Tom

[Paul_S]

This thread is Way stupid but I want to see Jims "Cop-Oh" cars. They sound way cool. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[PPPJJJFFF]

[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]

ZL1 corvette = Supercar in my book! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Patrick

[/ QUOTE ]

The 1969 ZL1 Corvette is not a SUPERCAR by definition, its only another square port car that was available to the mass public that wasn't ordered through COPO.
I hope this helps.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes this is getting ridiculous but if one of these should ever show up at F.A.S.T. or Pure Stock races, finely tuned, http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif, most "supercars" would be reading its license plate from the rear! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Patrick

[m22mike]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ !!
Mike A http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[69hurstSC]

if the thread is so stupid why do you all keep replying?

[HiHorse]

[ QUOTE ]
Imagine going to a show with your ZL1 corvette and trying to park in the section that is marked "supercars", only to be told youd have to park in the 1968 to 1972 corvette section because the last spot was taken by a 69 LM1 camaro paint delete car. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
The way the car shows are here the 69 LM1 camaro will most likely get all the attention than the ZL1 Corvette. Vettes get no respect. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Can-I-Have-It.gif

[x Baldwin Motion]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif


http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q101/65z13/beating_a_dead_horse.jpg

IT'S OFFICIAL. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif


(I do not own a super car)

[737Driver]

Would a Lime Green Matador or Turd Brown Gremlin with metallic paint and special one bbl carb be considered a Super Car?

Before you start asking...mine are NOT FOR SALE!

[Xplantdad]

Mark...how about the De Ville?http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ANDY M]

My new Supercar

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a146/ameyers215/scooter.jpg

[iluv69s]

I still own my grandmother's(God bless her soul) 1975 VW "SUPER" beetle which she bought new...it has been parked and stored for years...now with 29,000 original miles...we affectionately as a family always called it the "booger"...as it came with dealer painted "special" green paint and dealer installed 40 Ford front hood when sold new"... does this qualify as a "Supercar"????????? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

it doesn't matter....it will always be a "super" car to me!!!

[737Driver]

I'm accepting offers on the DeVille as I would like to spend the bucks and upgrade the Gremlin to a 2 bbl. If interested, please start researching your local transmission repair facilities.

[737Driver]

Andy,

Did you order that through the Central Restroom Production Office. Did it turn out to be a stinky deal? Were you flush with excitement when it was delivered? Ok, enough, I'll put a lid on it.

[iluv69s]

Wellll???

What more proof do I need??

-- Special paint??? C.O.P.O. possibly????

-- Dealer installed and painted fiberglass front
custom 40 Ford front nose...Possible Motion??

__ It also came with the "special" real spoked wire
wheel covers ...

and like many "supercars" of thier day, it has "super" right in the name...SUPER beetle...which is a performance option in itself...(I believe...I know very little about VW's)

I'll have to do some research as my family probably knows where she bought it... i seem to remember grandma and grandpa talking about having to drive all the way to NY to pick it up.... cant remember the town...but I think the street was Sunrise Highway or something like that....
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

wellll??? does the "booger" qualify???


alright...its not a chevy...:(:(:(

[JIM]

My New Supercar is in Long beach waiting shipment to the Eastcoast!!! Special Paint Hp engine , Super rare Can't wait !!!!

Jim http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[x Baldwin Motion]

[ QUOTE ]
.........and like many "supercars" of thier day, it has "super" right in the name...SUPER beetle...which is a performance option in itself...(I believe...I know very little about VW's)........

[/ QUOTE ]

My memory is not what it used to be so feel free to correct if you know other wise... in 71 the SUPERBEETLE was introduced with the macpherson strut front end and the spare tired laid flat instead of upright. in 73 they were equipped with a CURVED windshield. the "super" was all about the handling.

here's the worthless crap I couldn't remember.
- front apron and leading edge of front fenders rounded and turned under
- some front aprons are smooth, others have the louvres
- leading edge of the hood is wider and stubbier than a standard Beetle
- fresh air fan under hood instead of just the 'box'
- knob for fresh air fan in dashboard inset, along with the brake circuit light

now THAT is a SUPERCAR. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[Belair62]

Anyone who can recite the difference of a superbeetle has obviously owned a paisley one with peace signs and had a bad trip in it too.

[iluv69s]

Hey 'x'...

I believe the whole dash is totally different also on a Super beetle...(some Nickey installed guages or sumtin')

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

Thank Yooouuuu!!!!

[budnate]

Actually the Super Beetle had a different geared gearbox and the front was slightly wider with the struts, '71,'72 was my favorite Super-Beetles, they were awsome handling cars and would get out of there own way, they made them into heavy pigs in '73 up and they were slugs from then on...restored many of them in the '80's, Bob you cant still be upset cause a bug whiped you one night on the street. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/BelairSucks.gif

[Xplantdad]

[ QUOTE ]
My New Supercar is in Long beach waiting shipment to the Eastcoast!!! Special Paint Hp engine , Super rare Can't wait !!!!

Jim http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Here what Jim was talking about...a rare "X" version http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b156/lotsayenkopics/JIM/tn_Xright.jpg

[Charley Lillard]

... http://www.yenko.net/attachments/288923-026.JPG

[427king]

Any chance of seeing a Pacer vs an Lm1 camaro race at scr11??

[55chevy]

Well obviously non of you have seen the episode of American Musclecar on the Speed channel... They are all called "Ultras" now.. so you're all beating a dead horse. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Verne_Frantz]

[ QUOTE ]
Well obviously non of you have seen the episode of American Musclecar on the Speed channel... They are all called "Ultras" now.. so you're all beating a dead horse. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

Ed, I don't know if your post has finally ended this thread..............or given it a new life of it's own........... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[x Baldwin Motion]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who can recite the difference of a superbeetle has obviously owned a paisley one with peace signs and had a bad trip in it too.

[/ QUOTE ]

anyone who emails me a good pic of Gags gets first dibs on the next Motion item I dig up. It's gonna be a long winter and I need some photo shop practice.

[Xplantdad]

How many do you need Chris? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[427king]

Bruce , Id like a few of the pics you have. Im sure i will need them in the future.

[x Baldwin Motion]

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q101/65z13/trolls.jpg

ok, someone's pulling my leg, which one is he?

[Charley Lillard]

He's the short one in the middle. The tall one in the back is Chuck.

[Born30YrsLate]

...and Charley (on a good hair day) is the one in front...

[Belair62]

...after King and I beat him like a bad dog..he was trying to run away. Do I really need to start changing Motions signature now ? It will be a very long winter.

[Mr70]

Leave it be.. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Belair62]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif you're no fun anymore...

[HiHorse]

Would the 1969 ZL1 SUPERCAR Camaro bring in more money than a 1969 ZL1 non-SUPERCAR Vette at auction?

[427king]

based o the fact that 2 of the corvettes were made vs 69 or so camaros , the corvette would bring more money hands down. Although personally id prefer the camaro. If there were 69 of each made, the camaro would demand more money strange as it seems.

[olredalert]

------King,,,That number of 2 has been around for ever and for a long time had been generally grudgingly accepted. However it is now known beyond dispute that there were at least 4 delivered into customer hands and as many as 7 built overall. 3 of the 4 Customer delivered cars are out there in the public for all to see (1 with the original owner) and the 4th Im guessing will be out of long term storage sometime in the next 2 years......Bill S

[nuch_ss396]

Bill,

This is (new) news to me. How long has this been known?

Nuch

[427king]

hi Bill, what information was found to change the thought on how many were built ?

[olredalert]

------The yellow one (Roger Judskis) and the white one (Kevin Suydams) are pretty well established. There is also a pretty well known Monaco Orange convert that I believe the original owner still has. It has been to Corvette Carlisle more than once. The fourth is still a bit of a wild card and I cant go any further than that. It wouldnt be fair to the parties concerned at this time, but I have been assured by a very creditable source that it does exist. As far as the other three go,,,honestly not sure how many there were as they were probably cut up. There are many pictures of Zora in an automatic ZL1 coupe. I think it was white. There also would have been at least one 4-speed, but probably more like two,,,hence the figure of seven. The factory test cars are a bit of educated guesswork, but since they were probably crushed, we will never know.
------The same arguement comes up about the two 67 Corvettes with 36 gallon tanks that were supposedly the only two made. We have found that figure to also be a bit out of whack as there has been proof of other 67 tankers (2) that have been destroyed that posatively had big tanks installed at the factory.
------It seems that the published figures that came originally from GM are not always 100% correct but close......Bill S

[Tim Penton]

Bill S., I agree with your post as being factual. Keep us posted on the unknown/undiscovered ZL1. Do you know what color it is? I heard that it is blue. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[HiHorse]

[ QUOTE ]
------The yellow one (Roger Judskis) and the white one (Kevin Suydams) are pretty well established. There is also a pretty well known Monaco Orange convert that I believe the original owner still has. It has been to Corvette Carlisle more than once. The fourth is still a bit of a wild card and I cant go any further than that. It wouldnt be fair to the parties concerned at this time, but I have been assured by a very creditable source that it does exist. As far as the other three go,,,honestly not sure how many there were as they were probably cut up. There are many pictures of Zora in an automatic ZL1 coupe. I think it was white. There also would have been at least one 4-speed, but probably more like two,,,hence the figure of seven. The factory test cars are a bit of educated guesswork, but since they were probably crushed, we will never know.
------The same arguement comes up about the two 67 Corvettes with 36 gallon tanks that were supposedly the only two made. We have found that figure to also be a bit out of whack as there has been proof of other 67 tankers (2) that have been destroyed that posatively had big tanks installed at the factory.
------It seems that the published figures that came originally from GM are not always 100% correct but close......Bill S

[/ QUOTE ]
The hugger orange one is owned by John Maher, it has a Turbo 400. As far as paperwork goes he has a photocopy of the worn-out tank sticker. He does not have the original tank sticker (Corvette tank stickers do not have the serial number of the car on it)nor any other paperwork. Story goes John sold his 1968 L88 to Don Yenko to buy the ZL1 Vette.

[Chris396]

I have heard from a credible source also that there is a blue one out there.

[x Baldwin Motion]

so now the two ZL1 corvette's are something like the proverbial loaves and fishes? don't give up if you wanted one, apparently there's enough to go around. !!!???
nice.

[69hurstSC]

who can name all dealer built supercars? i'll take a stab and surely miss a few..
Dana, Nickey, Yenko, Berger, Baldwin/Motion, Harrell

[Mr70]

Fred Gibb,Bill Thomas,Scuncio,Byrne Bros.,Clippinger,Brigance,Guaranty,Central,
Courtesy,Lustine,Funston,H&H,Van,Colonial,Denooyer Bros.,Ray Ridge,Fencl-Tufo,Luby,Ken Tibor..

[Belair62]

Jack Head,Francis...aw hell...wait till Camarojoe just lists every one.

[sixtiesmuscle]

Grand Spaulding Dodge

[mockingbird812]

[ QUOTE ]
Grand Spaulding Dodge

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, what he said....

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v697/mockingbird812/unknown-1.jpg

[Unreal]

What about Jack Douglass? (*)

[Donny Brass]

I dunno about all this, but I am happy to find a place on the internet were a Corvette is accepted as a musclecar..... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/youguysrock.gif

usually, I get kicked over in the corner with the suede elbow patch crowd who think that either 6 cylinders are enough or only 12 will do..........

my favorite quote on that subjct came from Paul Zazzarine who said "with the right engine, a Corvette is a muscle car" what engine is that, Paul, the base motor pumped out 300 horses..........

[sixbrl440]

Well, I guess it is time for me to throw in. Where, in the realm of "Supercars" would my lowly 409/425 '63 Impala SS fall?

How about my lowly '68 Impala SS427 [as opposed to a '68 Impala with a 427] fitting in? Both cars were pretty much rocketships, I thought...both 4-gear, posi reared cars. Also, both were 'verts. I always had good responses from them.

[HiHorse]

Special yes, but not SUPER

[3macs1]

[ QUOTE ]
Special yes, but not SUPER

[/ QUOTE ]

I bet if you asked anyone about that impala in 1963 it was pretty SUPER and still is in my mind.

[69hurstSC]

i just thought of one of the sickest Supercars ever. the 1970 Boss 429 Cougar Eliminator!

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/1970-mercury-cougar-eliminator.htm

"The 1970 sales brochure listed the 429 Boss engine, rated 375 horsepower at 5200 rpm, as an Eliminator option. But Ford’s Kar Kraft facility, where 1969-70 Boss 429 Mustangs were built, is known to have assembled only two 1970 Cougar Eliminators with Hemi-head Boss 429 V-8s."

legend has it both are destroyed.

[69hurstSC]

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/1999/bosseliminatorqg1.jpg

this thread and story is simply unbelieveable!!
http://mercurycougar.net/forums/showthread.php?t=29256&page=2