value of a ZL 1 clone with a real ZL1 motor

[jl8z28]

A friend of mine is building a clone Zl1 with the original motor out of car #40 just wondering what a car like that would be worth.

[Kim_Howie]

About 20,000.00 less than he will have in it!!

[70CitrusZ]

probably 60-100,000 if its nice

[tabooo]

jl8z28
If you don't mind me asking, were was zl1 motor #40 purchase from.
Thanks

[jl8z28]

from a machine shop that had it since 1969. The owner is not really sure how he got it,but it is like a brand new motor.

[PeteLeathersac]

Is it wrong to ask if there's been attempts to reunite the motor w/ car existing car #40?.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevrolet...568864225QQrdZ1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevrolet-Camaro-ZL-1-40-1969-Chevrolet-Camaro_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6161QQitemZ45688 64225QQrdZ1)

If this is indeed the original engine shipped between the rails of ZL-1 #40 and has not been decked, the value of this motor alone should greatly influence the value of your friend's clone?.

~ Pete
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[jl8z28]

He offered the motor to Heartbeat Jim the owner of car # 40 and jim did not want it. The block has been verified by Jerry MacNeish to be the original block. It has all the numbers and dates,and was found not far from where the car was sold new. So now he plans to make a clone or possably sell the motor.

[tabooo]

Hey jl8z28
Thanks for that info.Any spec.on your friends clone?

[LS6 RAT]

I just don't get it. How could the owner of ZL-1 #40 not want thee original engine for his car? That's the heartbeat of that ZL-1! Picking that engine up to reunite with the car would have been absolutely, positively, the right thing to have done, no way is that car on ebay worth the money it was bid to without the orginal engine.

[jl8z28]

He plans to make a green car with black interior, m21

[Jeff H]

I'm also surprised that Jim had no interest to get the original motor for his ZL1. But then I think Ed C. was offered the original motor for his ZL1 #46 (I think) and he passed as well! I think it would be great to see these cars reunited with their original motors but I can understand from a financial position that sometimes these things just aren't meant to happen.

[Rainer]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm also surprised that Jim had no interest to get the original motor for his ZL1. But then I think Ed C. was offered the original motor for his ZL1 #46 (I think) and he passed as well!

[/ QUOTE ]

Since the owner of the car theoretically should want the original motor the most, I wonder if that translated into a ridiculously high price for it. I could see a car owner passing on an engine if he felt like he was being gouged on the price. Not saying that happened here - just my .02

[427king]

Exactly. Its like a ransom request where the victims refused to pay Good for them,thier cars are worth about the same anyway,and the fact its known the original motor is out there[and where it is exactly] its almost as good as having it.

[jl8z28]

The owner is asking 1.4 mil for the car and does not want the orignal motor. King you sell motors for more than he is asking.

[olredalert]

------Rainer,,,,I know for a fact that you are correct. I also have been in same position more than once. On the other side of the coin, I have had original to existing cars engines and I always wanted to get the engine reunited with the car no matter what. Just seemed right........Bill S

[Stefano]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm also surprised that Jim had no interest to get the original motor for his ZL1. But then I think Ed C. was offered the original motor for his ZL1 #46 (I think) and he passed as well! I think it would be great to see these cars reunited with their original motors but I can understand from a financial position that sometimes these things just aren't meant to happen.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a long history regarding Ed's ZL1 and the original engine. He did try to purchase it many years ago. If I remember correctly his original Paint ZL1 was show cased right next to the actual engine. This was at the Chevy Vette Fest back in the late 1980s early 90s.

Back when Bob Ashton's world revolved around Mopars???

Also, there was a ZL1 clone which claimed to have an engine from one of the original 69, no 71, no 72 ZL1s produced. It was sold at this past Barrett Jackson auction.

[427king]

If hes selling it for less than some motors i sell,id be a buyer for it myself. Have him contact me and ill pay a finders fee too.

[SSJunkie68-69]

It would nice to see it happen and everyone is cool with things at the end.

Came up here a few months back : http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat...true#Post255935 (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=copous&Number=255935&Sear chpage=5&Main=255935&Words=SSJunkie68-69&topic=&Search=true#Post255935)


King, just out of curiosity, if you had this motor what would you think would be the fair market value?

[HiHorse]

What is the asking price for the motor?

[HiHorse]

[ QUOTE ]
Exactly. Its like a ransom request where the victims refused to pay Good for them,thier cars are worth about the same anyway,and the fact its known the original motor is out there[and where it is exactly] its almost as good as having it.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's an interesting statement. As long as you know it exists and you know where it is, maybe its not necessary to purchase the motor at ransom prices.

[427king]

If someone here posted they had the original motor to one of my cars ,id be less inclined to want it/or to pay big money for it than if they had contacted me privately and said they had it and didnt let me know where it was. Ill also bet that if it wasnt a ZL1 it would be more desirable to the cars authenticity simply because the VIN #s of zl1s are known so the motor is less important. If the vins werent known on these cars,that zl1 motor would be priceless to the zl1 owner. And again by someone saying they have your motor and they said what it is publicly,theyve actually given you some free documentation and you dont really need it as bad .

[LS6 RAT]

Without that original engine, then what makes the ZL-1 Camaro so desireable? It is just like another Camaro with TI, M22 & HD 4:10 axles, an iron block COPO would be just as valuable.

[69LM1]

[ QUOTE ]

Without that original engine, then what makes the ZL-1 Camaro so desireable? It is just like another Camaro with TI, M22 & HD 4:10 axles, an iron block COPO would be just as valuable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I Agree. I'd rather have a proper "clone" with a real ZL1 driveline than a "ZL1" with a "Clone" driveline.

My 02.,
Rich

[427king]

[ QUOTE ]
Agree. I'd rather have a proper "clone" with a real ZL1 driveline than a "ZL1" with a "Clone" driveline

[/ QUOTE ] Wow, someone had an OD of certified LM1 exhaust fumes... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[69LM1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Agree. I'd rather have a proper "clone" with a real ZL1 driveline than a "ZL1" with a "Clone" driveline

[/ QUOTE ] Wow, someone had an OD of certified LM1 exhaust fumes... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

What I'd really like is a LM1 car with a ZL1 Engine (Hey! They both end in 1's!). Certified, of course.

[Charley Lillard]

Uhhh..OK. So if a real documented ZL1 with wrong engine and a clone of a ZL1 with a real ZL1 engine were both offered to you for the same price you would take the clone.

[L78M22Rag]

I'd be interested in your take on this scenario...
I've been trying to buy a local car off a guy for a looong time. The car is rare (but non-matching), so I've spent years tracking down its original motor in case I eventually get to buy the car - I followed a lot of rumors and went down a LOT of deadend roads. One day... there's a motor for sale in the local paper and (after recognizing the VIN) I buy the motor... its never been decked and all original! I've been straight forward with the owner of the car telling him that I found and bought the car's original motor. I still want to buy his car, but now he wants to buy the motor... and the car continues to sit on a couple of flat tires - as it has for the last twenty years (at least its not outside anymore).

So now what should I do? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[iluv69s]

Hey L78.... you should keep in touch, but you should wait it out!!! I guess it depends on how old you are...but I bought the original motor from my ZL-1 many years before eventually purchasing the car...The owner of the car actually found me...and called and begged me to sell him the motor every couple months...we actually became friends and I actually went and saw the car years before he eventually decided to sell... I always joked that he was older than me and that i would buy the car from his son once he died...(thank God that didnt happen...I'd really feel like crap now)...anyway, as the saying goes...Good things come to those who wait. Good Luck!!! What kind of car is it anyway??

[Charley Lillard]

Make him a very fair offer on the car. He might then at least start thinking about what he could do with the money.

[69LM1]

[ QUOTE ]
Uhhh..OK. So if a real documented ZL1 with wrong engine and a clone of a ZL1 with a real ZL1 engine were both offered to you for the same price you would take the clone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh, that's the rub, same price? Then neither.
BUT, if I was offered a ZL1 with a clone engine for 1mil or a clone car with a ZL1 driveline for 100k, then yes, i'd rather have the real engine car.

[69LM1]

And I guess the other side of the same thought would be if you blew the engine in the real car/clone engine you could just buy another one........

[Charley Lillard]

Either car for the same price and you would take neither ?

[rubbinisracing]

I find it intriging to put a value on the missing engine. If a real ZL1 is worth 1 mil or more without its original engine then what's the engine worth? 5%, 10%, 20% of the cars value. The owner of the car might not want it bad enough to pay the ransom but I've paid much more than a 20% premium for an original drivetrain car vs. a comparable restoration engined car. Your Thoughts...

[LS6 RAT]

I believe the drivetrain is at least equal in monetary value to the body on a rare optioned model. When you look in different value guides, read the amount of percentages that are attributed to the engine options! In Corvettes look at L-88's or ZL-1's or LS-6's they are listed at, add 300% or 500% to the 5 different grades assigned to the car.
Normal engine options are given a monetary figure such as add $5000.00 for LS-5 or add $ 7500.00 for example LT-1.

[427king]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe the drivetrain is at least equal in monetary value to the body on a rare optioned model

[/ QUOTE ] Please tell the buyers on this site of the news,i cant get 15K for virgin MN copo motors http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[PeteLeathersac]

[ QUOTE ]

I believe the drivetrain is at least equal in monetary value to the body on a rare optioned model. When you look in different value guides, read the amount of percentages that are attributed to the engine options! In Corvettes look at L-88's or ZL-1's or LS-6's they are listed at, add 300% or 500% to the 5 different grades assigned to the car.
Normal engine options are given a monetary figure such as add $5000.00 for LS-5 or add $ 7500.00 for example LT-1.

[/ QUOTE ]

Warren...what you're referring to is the value added to a car because a specific engine option is known to have been originally shipped w/ that specific Vin...not the value of the original engine itself, loose and astray from the car...right?.

----------------------------------------------------------

"...As long as you know it exists and you know where it is, maybe its not necessary to purchase the motor at ransom prices..."

As far as this statement goes, if I had the car and knew where the original engine was, I'd do all I could to obtain it.. Knowing where it was wouldn't be good enough as at any time some hero could deck it...then whataya' got!.

~ Pete
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[427king]

Although he is right in one respect. The zl1 option was worth more than the car itself was in 1969 prices.

[Chevy454]

[ QUOTE ]

Without that original engine, then what makes the ZL-1 Camaro so desireable? It is just like another Camaro with TI, M22 & HD 4:10 axles, an iron block COPO would be just as valuable.

I Agree. I'd rather have a proper "clone" with a real ZL1 driveline than a "ZL1" with a "Clone" driveline.


[/ QUOTE ]
The car market for the past 38 years disagrees...

[Eddie M.]

well if I found the block for mine I'd pass if it was to high heck I'd end up paying more for the block then I did for the whole car with a ce block even if it was a cheap price

[Charley Lillard]

Warren...I know you and you are not that dumb...

[jl8z28]

If two people had ZL1s for sale for 1 mil,one had the original motor, the other did not which one would you buy.

[427king]

If the car that didnt have the right motor was a red RS,id personally take the NOM car.But let me ask this, if a zl1 with the real motor was 1M, and a real car [equivalent condition,etc]with a CE was 500K, which one would YOU buy???[since its being stated that the motor is worth 1/2 the car]

[Mr70]

If that 500K car is Green,I'd personally take the 1M zL1.

[Chevy454]

[ QUOTE ]
If the 500K car is Green,I'd personally take the 1M zL1.

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL! Always hatin' on the green cars!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

BTW: where do you want me to send the money for that Delco Analyzer packet? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[Steve Shauger]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Without that original engine, then what makes the ZL-1 Camaro so desireable? It is just like another Camaro with TI, M22 & HD 4:10 axles, an iron block COPO would be just as valuable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I Agree. I'd rather have a proper "clone" with a real ZL1 driveline than a "ZL1" with a "Clone" driveline.

My 02.,
Rich

[/ QUOTE ]
If I'm building a clone the last thing I would put in it would be an original ZL1 motor. Personally if I built a clone it would be to have fun, and not worry about blowing up an engine. I would build it to hammer and incorporate some new technology. Why waste a valuable engine, and not be able to have thrash it....

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[DarrenX33]

[ QUOTE ]
If I'm building a clone the last thing I would put in it would be an original ZL1 motor. Personally if I built a clone it would be to have fun, and not worry about blowing up an engine. I would build it to hammer and incorporate some new technology. Why waste a valuable engine, and not be able to have thrash it....


[/ QUOTE ]

Can't agree more... Not just engines, I don't get putting real parts on clones. Reproduction parts are perfect in this case. Especially the high dollar items. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif Would be nice if the real items got reunited with the cars they came from. But its all up to the current owners I guess... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[iluv69s]

I think with a car like a ZL1, a lot has to do with timing...I suspect that certain cars without the original motor on a given day have sold for more than cars with the original motor...if you just gotta have a ZL1 NOOWWW...you have to pick one that is available now...with a Z28 or other more common RPO, there are always atleast a handful available at any given moment.With a Zl-1, your lucky if more than a couple go up for sale in any given year...I think that some cars sold in the recent past few years to collectors that just had to have one...lets face it, if you have a collection of the best Chevy musclecars and money is no object, your collection is not complete without a ZL-1...

And as far as Jim from Heartbeats car for 1.4 million, I'm sure the restoration is beautiful, but if I had 1.4 mil to buy a ZL1, I would solicit other owners of a more desirable color(and definitely a 4-speed) and I suspect you would have atleast a few owners willing to part with their cars for that kind of cash...1.4 mil sure would get my attention http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/drool.gif

just my .02

[69LM1]

[ QUOTE ]
Either car for the same price and you would take neither ?

[/ QUOTE ]

If they were both in the 1m range. Can't swing that kinda dough. Even if I could, I'd have to be bill gates silly rich before I'd spend 1mil on a car.

I guess in the end, after careful thought, I'd take a well done all around clone, one I could drive. I certinaly would not thrash a clone with a ZL1 motor in it. That is a good point, and one I thought of right after posting, hense, the follow up post.

Happy in my LM1 world!

Rich

[69LM1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Without that original engine, then what makes the ZL-1 Camaro so desireable? It is just like another Camaro with TI, M22 & HD 4:10 axles, an iron block COPO would be just as valuable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I Agree. I'd rather have a proper "clone" with a real ZL1 driveline than a "ZL1" with a "Clone" driveline.

My 02.,
Rich

[/ QUOTE ]
If I'm building a clone the last thing I would put in it would be an original ZL1 motor. Personally if I built a clone it would be to have fun, and not worry about blowing up an engine. I would build it to hammer and incorporate some new technology. Why waste a valuable engine, and not be able to have thrash it....

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Good Point. I stand corrected in that one.

Not, of course, the LM1 stuff though http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

http://www.69lm1.com\pics\lm1srock.gif

Rich

[427king]

Between seeing the " LM1 rocks" sign and the "what is the definition of a supercar"thread, Id now like to have my membership prorated and the unused portion refunded.

[Xplantdad]

[ QUOTE ]
Between seeing the " LM1 rocks" sign and the "what is the definition of a supercar"thread, Id now like to have my membership prorated and the unused portion refunded.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[LS6 RAT]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]





Warren...what you're referring to is the value added to a car because a specific engine option is known to have been originally shipped w/ that specific Vin...not the value of the original engine itself, loose and astray from the car...right?.



~ Pete
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that correct, Pete.

[L78M22Rag]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey L78.... you should keep in touch, but you should wait it out!!! I guess it depends on how old you are...but I bought the original motor from my ZL-1 many years before eventually purchasing the car...The owner of the car actually found me...and called and begged me to sell him the motor every couple months...we actually became friends and I actually went and saw the car years before he eventually decided to sell... I always joked that he was older than me and that i would buy the car from his son once he died...(thank God that didnt happen...I'd really feel like crap now)...anyway, as the saying goes...Good things come to those who wait. Good Luck!!! What kind of car is it anyway??

[/ QUOTE ]
It's an L78 convertible... of course!

[Unreal]

It's easy to get caught up in percentages. Pay an extra 1% for a new car, and we're looking at $ 250.00. Pay an extra 100% for a new suit, and we're looking at $250.00. Pay double for a new suit? "NO WAY, IT'S AN EXTRA $250!!" But pay 1% more for a new car, and we say, "Hey, it's $250."

Add 20% to the value of a Z/28 for original motor = $20,000

Add 20% to the value of a ZL-1 for original motor = $200,000

Who's going to pay $200,000 for a motor?

[rubbinisracing]

[ QUOTE ]
Who's going to pay $200,000 for a motor?

[/ QUOTE ]

While the number of buyers willing to spend a mil or more on a collector car are few, I believe there are more potential buyers of a ZL1 with its original drivetrain for 1 million than the same car with a restoration engine for $800k. What I find interesting is the correlation between the perceived potential buyers vs. the widening price difference. If the prices were 300k apart I still believe there are more buyers for the original drivetrain car...at 400k you may have picked up enough buyers to swing the balance in the other direction. I'm not sure where the point of diminishing returns is....In the end it only matters what the current owner thinks but....they all get sold someday!

[Charley Lillard]

I would pay more for a ZL1 with good history and options with non orig engine than I would pay for a boring one with orig engine.

[rich p]

What a Funny topic !!

Tell everybody what price Jim was hit with and we ALL can get a laugh out of it !! I was told a couple of nights ago.
WOW !

Talking about a topic so close to me. I have for sale

69 ZL1 Camaro Fathom Green Original motor $600K
69 ZL1 Camaro GREAT COLOR! NOT the original motor $850K

Some of the Best ZL1's for sale with NO issues. Lets see when you find this kind of price's without issues.

The ZL1's Camaro's are the KING KONG for GM http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

Look at an Original Window sticker,look at the Price Tag http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Drive one and you will know why ! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[Steve Shauger]

[ QUOTE ]
I would pay more for a ZL1 with good history and options with non orig engine than I would pay for a boring one with orig engine.

[/ QUOTE ]
I believe you just did that... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[HiHorse]

[ QUOTE ]
I have for sale

69 ZL1 Camaro Fathom Green Original motor $600K
69 ZL1 Camaro GREAT COLOR! NOT the original motor $850K

[/ QUOTE ]
Please let us know why the great color car (what is the color?) is $250000 more? thanks

[Charley Lillard]

I believe the 850K car is a yellow 4 speed.

[Rainer]

[ QUOTE ]
What a Funny topic !!

Tell everybody what price Jim was hit with and we ALL can get a laugh out of it !! I was told a couple of nights ago.
WOW !


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, someone please do tell. PM is fine if you don't want to air it out http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Tenney]

How 'bout an original motor car w/non-original great color v. non-original motor w/original great color? Which do you pick (and you can't pick Ditka)? I know what I'd take (whatever it is you guys are taking!!).

[rich p]

NO BRAINER !! THe Original motor car is going in the paint booth.. LOL http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Forgot! 4 speed or auto

Comes down to it. If the car Pops out at you and it fits your Bill(pegigree?,color,options,money,etc)then the car will end up in your garage.Hey some people buy rebodies,guess what?
That fits their Bill !!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I know it cost a LOT of money to build a serious clone now a days and trying to get your money back is real hard.
Look at the e-body converts!!!!!

[Late BrakeU2]

[ QUOTE ]

I know it cost a LOT of money to build a serious clone now a days and trying to get your money back is real hard.
Look at the e-body converts!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Rich,I couldn't agree more.With the cost of restorations going up,and the value of clones going down,there are some nice tribute cars out there at great prices.I fell in love with this car,and bought it for WELL under what the man had in her(the driveline and components were nearly 40k alone)that equated to about a third of a real one of simlilar quality restoration.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8297402864976750302

Yeah.. it's a fake,but i wanted something I could actually drive without cold sweats unlike some of my other real cars..out here every fifth car on the road is uninsured and powered by budweiser http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[Xplantdad]

Mark...I saw that car on Ebay...looks really cool! Congrats on the purchase.

So....you gonna drive it out here to Pavillions? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[Late BrakeU2]

[ QUOTE ]
Mark...I saw that car on Ebay...looks really cool! Congrats on the purchase.

So....you gonna drive it out here to Pavillions? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Bruce,thanks man..thinking more like Bob's Big boy Toulca lake!.Phoenix is long way with 4:10's http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

I am looking forward to next years pilgrimage to Mecca(Scottsdale) in Jan-had blast meeting all you guys this year.We just need Denis to make that awesome Chili again! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Xplantdad]

That is...if we can get that "Denis" dude back from Lake Tahoe...he's relaxing and living the "good life" up there http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Late BrakeU2]

He's got the rotation figured out..being from No Ontario i'm sure when it turns white up there he'll be southbound to the valley of the sun http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Xplantdad]

Mark...I'm not so sure. He LOVES to snowboard and doesn't have to go far to do it! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

[kwhizz]

Eh!!!!!!!!!!

[Xplantdad]

[ QUOTE ]
Eh!!!!!!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[PhilS]

It's an L78 convertible... of course!

[/ QUOTE ]

Love those L-78 rags. As for the original engine vs non discussion, I'd like the original engine everytime if it's an all other things being equal situation which it seldom is. My hemicuda rag won SS eliminator at the '73 US Nats as well as 26 other eliminator victories that year. It has none of its original drivetrain as is the case with most serious race cars. I wouldn't trade even for one with all original mechanicals. To me it comes down to the particular car. It's probably a good thing we don't all think the same or we might all be chasing the dozen or so perfect cars.

[Xplantdad]

[ QUOTE ]

It's an L78 convertible... of course!

[/ QUOTE ]

Love those L-78 rags. As for the original engine vs non discussion, I'd like the original engine everytime if it's an all other things being equal situation which it seldom is. My hemicuda rag won SS eliminator at the '73 US Nats as well as 26 other eliminator victories that year. It has none of its original drivetrain as is the case with most serious race cars. I wouldn't trade even for one with all original mechanicals. To me it comes down to the particular car. It's probably a good thing we don't all think the same or we might all be chasing the dozen or so perfect cars.

[/ QUOTE ]

That LS6 rag of yours ain't too shabby either! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[PhilS]

Thanks Bruce. Come to think of it, that car doesn't have its original engine either. It runs pretty good though.

[L78M22Rag]

[ QUOTE ]
Make him a very fair offer on the car. He might then at least start thinking about what he could do with the money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Charlie, I've been increasing my offers since 1991! Last Christmas I offered him the chance to buy the motor on a shotgun basis. I figured the motor was worth about 20% of the overall value (if motor is worth 20% of a restored car... 20% may be low based on a car needing a total restoration). To keep him honest, I asked him to make me an offer for the motor - both of us knowing that his price dictated his value of the car. If his offer was fair - I'd sell the motor. If he low-balled me, I would then be able to buy the car for the other 80% of the value. He led me to believe that he was going to call back and give me his offer... but a couple days later his wife called and claimed to want to buy the motor for him as an anniversary present without him knowing. The fact that he hasn't called back since tells me he put her up to it. Six months later she called back - again trying to buy it for their anniversary... how many anniversaries do some people have? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

I really had good intentions to work a fair deal with him (either buying or selling)... now I'm thinking about building a clone of his car and dropping the motor in it.

[iluv69s]

Hey Helmut,

I have an idea that has worked for me a few times...send someone else over to make an offer on the car. I tried to buy a 67 RS-SS for atleast 10 years from the original owners and they would never sell...maybe I insulted them the first time by offering 1000 dollars for thier car...but when I sent my brother there to make an offer, they sold him the car for 1200 dollars...I had actually raised my offer to 1500 dollars at one point. Ya just never know.


ps... I'll be glad to go over and make an offer if you cut me in as a partner!!!hahaha http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

good luck!!!!

[Charley Lillard]

Even better...Make her a offer for the car. Then SHE will start thinking of what they could do with the money.

[69LM1]

[ QUOTE ]
Even better...Make her a offer for the car. Then SHE will start thinking of what they could do with the money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now, that's just evil!!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[Kim_Howie]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/CharleySucks.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[L78M22Rag]

[ QUOTE ]
Even better...Make her a offer for the car. Then SHE will start thinking of what they could do with the money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Already tried that... evidently she's hoping the car will be a future father and son project. So far, the son likes the imports more than muscle cars.

If it looked like the car was being restored... I'd gladly sell the motor to reunite it, but there's no sense in the motor just sitting beside the car collecting dust too!

[70CitrusZ]

I'd take the fathom green one with the match engine for 600k any day of the week over non original for 850.
but, I also like green...and don't like yellow.

[69LM1]

Well,

I guess I just got the opportunity to put my money where my mouth is!

I just bought this 69 COPO (chevelle) engine:

http://www.69lm1.com\pics\copoMP.jpg


To go into this:

http://www.69lm1.com\pics\X11.jpg

my original car from high school as found in a junkyard that I just bought and will be starting a restore on this winter!

Now I just need the tranny and rear!

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rich

[427king]

What happened to the plug in the rh head?

[69LM1]

Looks like paint over grime? It was picked up yesterday by one of my employees and will be here sometime tonight then I can make a proper assessment.

http://www.69lm1.com\pics\mpmotor.jpg

[427king]

[ QUOTE ]
Looks like paint over grime?

[/ QUOTE ] Actually it normally protrudes from the head 1/8 of an inch or more. The fact it is recessed or ground means you should inspect the block a bit better before purchasing to ensure it wasnt alterted so the block could be stamped with the head still on. They also break alot,just might be a coincidence. Check the exhaust manifold side to make sure it isnt restamped, so hard to tell by the pic but it looks a bit smooth on one end of the pad

[COPO_Anders]

That´s the engine that was for sale at SCR9. The experts said it was a restamp.

[69LM1]

Well,
It'll be here in a few hours, so I can get some better pics, so far a few respected people (based on the pics I had) said that it looked pretty good. I was told that it has been in central Texas for some time? Of course, as allways, won't know until I get it here and get some close ups to Jerry and Kurt!

Best of all, even if it is a just 512, I got it for a great price, if it is a real MP, then I got it for a smokin' deal.

What was the VIN on the 427 at SCR9 ?

[427king]

[ QUOTE ]
Best of all, even if it is a just 512, I got it for a great price, if it is a real MP, then I got it for a smokin' deal.



[/ QUOTE ] You got it for a great price. It is nice to see you get away from the LM1s http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[budnate]

looks like you will have to pop the head and confirm the faint broach as real or not. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[69LM1]

OK,
It just got here. I paid right around $6,000.00 for it, which if it is a real COPO is a smokin' deal, if it is just a restamp 427, then as a running motor, only .10 over, fully rebuilt and complete, than that is OK too.

It will probably be next week before I can pull the head, crusin the coast started today, and I am heading for Mississippi tomorrow. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

I guess we can start with is there anything that precludes this from being a Chevelle COPO motor (ie VIN vs dates, any other external clues?)

Cast 3963512 P
GM 4 HiPerf Conv

Cast Date C 11 9
A

Heads 840's C 27 9 and C 28 9

Suffix T0408MP

Vin 19K465533 (I think)

http://www.69lm1.com\427mp\ruler.jpg

http://www.69lm1.com\427mp\mpedge.jpg

http://www.69lm1.com\427mp\mpstamp.jpg

http://www.69lm1.com\427mp\castdate.jpg

http://www.69lm1.com\427mp\840.jpg

http://www.69lm1.com\427mp\oilfilter.jpg

[69LM1]

[ QUOTE ]
You got it for a great price. It is nice to see you get away from the LM1s http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless I decide to put it in one http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rich

[427king]

[ QUOTE ]
No Kansas City built COPO's that I am aware of.

[/ QUOTE ] I dont know myself if this statement is true,but ive heard it many times before.

[Mr70]

Vin 19K465533 (I think)
FWIW..That # <u>appears</u> as a July 1969 Leeds Chevelle release.

[69LM1]

[ QUOTE ]
Vin 19K465533 (I think)
FWIW..That # <u>appears</u> as a July 1969 Leeds Chevelle release.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I know just a little less about chevells! What does that mean? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

[Mr70]

It means I remember your engine being talked about on here recently.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat...true#Post228579 (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&amp;Board=UBB1&amp;Number=228579&amp;Search page=6&amp;Main=228579&amp;Words=COPO_Anders&amp;topic=&amp;Search =true#Post228579)

[69LM1]

Thanks Rick,
A good read. So, if I read that correctly, it seems to be a legit L72 engine, just some guess work on weather the stamp is real or not. I wonder why no one pulled the head previously? In any case I will, and I will post some pics here as well when I resturn from the show.

Like I said, 6k for a real running L72 aint bad, and will still be a cool motor for my Original 307 car!

(Unless I put it in a LM1 King! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

If the broach marks look good all the better, if not, oh well!

Thanks,

Rich

[COPO_Anders]

I would have bought it for $6000 to. They were asking for $15000 when I looked at it.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[iluv69s]

I know there are labs that can do some type of test to the metal to see "if the molecules below the surface have been compressed" by a prior stamping. I know there was a vette on Ebay within the last year that claimed to have had this done to the frame and block to prove there was no restamps...I believe it was a 67 L-88..not sure though. He had all the lab reports...maybe someone remembers the auction and you can contact the lab. But I know the FBI does it all the time to check removed serial numbers on guns. It may be worth it to prove originality..

[SuperNovaSS]

It can only be done once and the memory is removed from what I remember. So if the test comes up empty it proves nothing.


Jason

[BARN FIND]

I believe there are a couple fellows from a University in Utah that have come up with a procedure that can be done repeatedly and is not affected by the the old "one shot" test.

[kwhizz]

I'm sure that Technology has Improved......but back in the Sixties......I know that the Police had a method of lightly heating the Stamp Pad with a torch, then they would apply some sort of Acid to the Pad and it would bring up any Stampings that were pre-existing....
I know of a couple guys that were "Busted" by this procedure ........ http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Ken

[Xplantdad]

[ QUOTE ]

I know of a couple guys that were "Busted" by this procedure ........ http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Ken

[/ QUOTE ]

Bad boys, Bad boys....whatcha gonna do, whatcha gonna do when they come for you? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[427king]

Its possible that a non original motor car started out as a factory blank pad and not a reground one. Therefore an acid test doesnt prove anything with 100% certainty really.

[SuperNovaSS]

Interesting points. I did not know there was a test that could be repeated. Also, the blank pad point is also a good one. Maybe if we all ask nicely the restamping will stop. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[iluv69s]

[ QUOTE ]
Its possible that a non original motor car started out as a factory blank pad and not a reground one. Therefore an acid test doesnt prove anything with 100% certainty really.

[/ QUOTE ]

very good point. i guess it could only "dis-prove" originality...in other words...if there was a prior stamping, it would show..if it was never stamped, it would show nothing. I guess it would prove if it was the "original stamping" or not...the question being ... when was it stamped?? Does anyone have pics of another similar dated motor?? Do the cast and assembly date seem in order?? What about the alpha-numerics...sure'd like to see photos of other stampings for comparison...

did you get the head off yet and check the broach marks????? great site guys...learning every day!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

[69LM1]

Tomorrow is the last day of the crusin the coast show, I'll be heading home then. I bought a gasket set! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

There are estimated to be over 6,000 classic cars this year, one of the best showings ever. Many 69's and a lot of hemi cuda's and clones. The car corral and swap meet was pretty dismal this year. Everyone's parts were ruined by the hurricane. Some of you northerners should come down next year, you'd make a killing!

Two respected people in the hobby have looked at pictures of the stamp (and I need to stress that it was just pics, they or one of them need to see it in person) and at first glance, the stamp seems to be in line with other MP stamps from that time frame. Cast and assembly dates line up, not sure if the chevelle VIN and assembly dates line up, anyone know dates ranges on chevelle vins?

The head will come off early next week, and I should know more.

Real question is that everyone seems to agree that it is a L72 engine, if so, what could it have been out of if not the chevelle whose vin is stamped by the oil filter? I have learned to start by attempting to find the (or not so) obvious and disprove first, then work on proving.

Rich

[Mr70]

...not sure if the chevelle VIN and assembly dates line up, anyone know dates ranges on chevelle vins?..

As I replied earlier &amp; going on just what your brief pictures show,that VIN # shows up as a Chevelle or Elcamino,assembled July 1969 from the Kansas City Leeds plant.

[427king]

[ QUOTE ]
Real question is that everyone seems to agree that it is a L72 engine, if so, what could it have been out of if not the chevelle whose vin is stamped by the oil filter

[/ QUOTE ] It could be many things if it was restamped. CE warranty motor, boat motor,truck motor,and if you take it further it could have been a converted 2 bolt from an impala,just to name a few of the possibilities.