Mecum Auction Hemi Fest

[njsteve]

Now the description is rather scary on this car:

http://www.mecumauction.com/auctions/lot_detail.cfm?LOT_ID=CH1007-60144

I remember doing some of the tech articles on this car back in 1993 or so when Greg and Tom had the car, when we all worked at Dobbs Publishing Group. They found it near the office in Lakeland, Florida. It was in rusty primer with 340 painted-on billboards on the quarters and a 340/automatic under the hood. It did have the holes for the window louvers still and some decal remains from billboards in the door jams. It was a real BS23R1 1971 Hemicuda originally but everything including the shaker hood, hemi K frame, fender tags, broadcast sheets, Dana rear, etc., was gone. The only thing from its past heritage that remained was the VIN tag on the dash.

So I am wondering how it is now a "3 fender tag car loaded with factory options" and a "real deal with matching body numbers"???

I remember doing the photography and the article on the rusty rear window deck replacement. I will try to dig the article up in the basement later.

Beautiful restoration from the photos but the description seems rather inaccurate. Anyone know who owns this car at the present time?

[bashton]

I remember that article and thinking, Geez, what a heap of a project.

Just goes to show...you just never know.

I will be there to see it cross the auction block. Will let you know how it goes!

BA

[njsteve]

I found it! June/July 1991 issue of Mopar Muscle. I guess the car had more equipment on it than I remembered This is the shot as they originally found it. The louvers were still there along with the rear wing! But the trunk and the intermediate panel between the trunklid and the rear window were rusted.

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i30/nk15268a/article.jpg

And to think they bought it for around $5,000 back in 1990 and I think they sold the project for about $10,000 in 1992, after it sat in my yard for about a year overtaken by kudzu vines.

[quick-bowtie]

Its actually my old car.. I know of a few ZL1 that were found in the same shape with most of the parts missing and restored back to original. I dont think anyone is trying to rep it as a numbers car at least I hope not! Although alot of original pieces were missing.. It was restored with correct parts and done very nicely I might add. The car was pretty clean with the trunk (just the center section) and the upper valance being replaced, probably do to the vinyl top holding water, The car has super nice floors and frame rails its all body color underneath so its not hiding anything. The car does have its original body numbers (Vin, radiator support and cowl).. As for the fender tags, Galen made them and put what options he could find or tell the car came with with visual inspections and talking to previous owners (was restored and that way when I bought it). Galen inspected the car when it was found and also did a visual inspection and full report for me when I had it, Although its not a NUMBERS CAR it is a REAL 71' HEMI 4 speed car and pretty darn rare. And being its not a numbers car you can actually drive it and hammer on it alittle. =)

The car had a folder with every title copy from previous owners including the the first title when new and a copy of the original bill of origin, Magazine articles, Pretty bullet proof docs as to being a real Hemi car.

I wouldnt mind having the car back actually.. it was a pretty decent car if you can get over the fact it not a numbers car.. but the price will definatey reflect that..

[quick-bowtie]

Just stating what I know about it and what Galen has said and reported on.. Im sure njsteve knows more than I especially if he had to look at it in his yard for a year! What I would have given to be able to buy the car for 5k or 10k back then.. Crazy how those cars went up and up and up.. in 91' I was only in 9th or 10th grade I couldnt imagine asking the bank for 10k for a primered up project car! who knew...

[king_midas]

Yeah Quick, I hear you... You're just a few years younger than me, and I still remember the '69 RS-Z that I passed on that was sitting in a guy's driveway in a friend's neighborhood. Must have been 1988 or 89; I can't quite remember. It coulda been mine, hauled away, for $2K w/o engine/transmission, or $4,500 with the #s match rebuilt 302 and M-22 that he was running around in a '67 Corvette at the time.

It was super rare, 10-10 black, houndstooth, wood dash, wood wheel, no spoilers or cowl hood. Rusted very badly, but not by today's standards, and would be a dream come true for someone today to find something like that.

I tried to figure out how to buy it for the entire winter, but couldn't find the money. He eventually did sell it, and I think I actually cried.

Aaah, those were the days....

[x Baldwin Motion]

REAL DEAL CAR with matching body numbers http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

sins of ommission ( it's still lying )

[quick-bowtie]

The first car I bought was a 1970 L78 Nova 4 speed when I was 14 from saved up paper route money.. I had to BEG my dad to let me buy it.. It was a solid great driver project needing only some light body work (dings) and paint and I remember draining my savings and actually borrowing $200 to pay the whooping $1400 bill. One of the best days of my life. (I even got to drive it part way home until we started get close to town).. I dont think there is a better way to put a smile on a boys face than driving a muscle car.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Like this?

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h68/aacorp/BenjaminandSS2.jpg

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h68/aacorp/BenjaminandSS5.jpg

[Hylton]

[ QUOTE ]
REAL DEAL CAR with matching body numbers http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

sins of ommission ( it's still lying )

[/ QUOTE ]

Fraudulent misrepresentation in my books. Thanks for letting the members know about some history on this car Steve! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[LS6 RAT]

Guys,

I just read the ad that NJSteve posted above. If you read the ad, I don't think there is anything said that is not truthful. It says 3 fender tag (it doesn't say original), it says body matching numbers (it doesn't say engine original), it says Galen believes it to be one of the most optioned cars (it doesn't say they are factory installed). The description could be taken as implied, but it is very carefully written/worded, and I think a buyer would have a tough time disputing the ad as stated.

[quick-bowtie]

I dont own the car anymore so if it sells for a dollar or a million I really dont care.. I am friends with the current owner but to say the ad is misleading and especially fraudulent get real!

How is this not a real deal car with matching body numbers?? The car is 100% a REAL 1971 HEMI CAR and Correct me if Im wrong but in the Mopar world matching body numbers mean original COWL, RADIATOR SUPPORT AND VIN TAG (all are stamped with the vin..( at least thats what Ive always been told and from the 10 or so HIGH end Mopar collectors I know they all say the same) all of which clearly this car has. So where is the lying coming in?

Say a Camaro on the Zl1 list is found and it has all its original hidden vins and original vin on the car is it real? Case in point the Green ZL1 that was found in California dressed as a Z28 with a small block.. restored to original with correct parts.. Nice write up about the car and sold for fair money.. Was that car not REAL? Because Id sure like to have it! Not a numbers car but didnt sell for numbers money either just like this Cuda will.

Im just confused NO where does that Hemi car say its NUMBERS MATCHING CAR, it just says matching body numbers to let people know its not a rebody because there are a couple floating around.

I personally dont see anything misleading thing with the ad, most people spending that kind of coin ask questions too. There is a ton of PROOF it is a Hemi car, Good docs, Galen made the tags and doc'd the car (most take his word as being good) it has had a very nice nut and bolt resto?? Im sure Galen will be on site at the auction, and his report will be available on the car..so what gives? The car is what it is and wont bring Numbers Matching money.. Infact I bet the owner will lose money on this car because the Mopar market has taken such a BIG BIG HIT.

Should the ad read old 1971 Cuda with trunk pan replaced and upper valance, body numbers are present and match but look for yourself, found in Florida by a couple Mopar guys, have some papers that are in a book, some guy from Wisconsin looked at it and said its real, looks good it has been worked on.

Do you think the owner is trying to hide something?? I pretty sure if he was Greg and Toms names wouldnt have been mentioned because most Mopar guys know the car as the Barber Shop car that was in the magazines back in the early 90's.

The car has a correct dated Hemi out a late 1970 Hemi Cuda, most parts are correct dated, it has a Dana 60, Hemi 4 Speed and restored back what Galen has stated it was. I guess if someone is a fraud it would he him then?? pretty sure most Mopars guy wouldnt agree with you on that one. Im not saying Galen is God but when it comes to a Mopar I myself trust him more than any other guy 100%.

Im not trying to start a war just curious why a legit Hemi car is getting questioned? And why the same fraudulent charges havent been made about 70% of the other cars out there that we all know about?

P.S. Yes Marlin those pics bring back great memories.. It was just like that!

[njsteve]

That is great that you were able to track down the paper trail history on the car. It was a really neat car and not that bad a shape either, other than the trunk floor and rear window channel. I wish I had to foresight to have bought it, since at the time I had an NOS 1970 dated 426 Hemi engine sitting in my garage not 50 feet from where the car was parked. We built and dyno tested that engine for a later article.

No doubt whatsoever that it's a real car but that auction-speak sure raises my hackles. It reminds of of Slick Willy Clinton and the old "It all depends on what your definition of is, is" speach. I hate having to decypher what a seller is saying nowadays. I long for the old days when matching numbers actually meant "original born with, stamped at point of assembly and installation into vehicle at said original assembly plant prior to delivery to original destination dealer in year of manufacture" without having to specifically spell that out in an ad.

Maybe I (like most people on this site) am just cursed by the fact that I know a lot about these cars and I can see that someone with far less knowledge (and far more money) may buy it thinking it is more than what it is described as. And then that person will get all lawyerly when they think the car was described in a way that was not up to their interpretation of what the terms meant. (The old meeting of the minds, in legal speak.) Then again it's a world of "Caveat Emptor" to quote Greg Brady in the infamous 57 Chevy ragtop episode.

I guess I am too nice, When I sell a car I put it all out there for the world to know. No carefully worded descriptions. Using my best Jack Webb Dragnet voice: "Just the facts m'aam..."

[Hylton]

Fraud is a strong word in this case and I mis spoke but from the ad, you do not get the sense the car was at one time a shell of it's former self.

Steve's information (and yours) gives potential buyers more disclosure about the history of the car and that is never a bad thing.

[HEMIBEE]

I find it hard to believe that car sold in 1992 for 10,000, if it did somebody was asleep at the wheel, i remember an article where Tom Shaw said he was trying to hold a straight face when they were buying it. I also find it funny that Galen can make tags for this car and its ok for some reason (take the yellow canada L-89) with the tag issues, dont get me wrong the car looks great and is a real car because of the body numbers, but it shouldn't have tags backed up by one mans opinion on FACTORY installed options,esp. when the car was 23 years old when he looked at it. I just hope that this car is presented as such, Ask Mr. Norm how many options he added to cars at the dealer to get them sold, "buyer beware"

[njsteve]

By the way I would be more than happy to have that car back alongside my garage again. If we could just move the decimal points over to the left a couple spaces on the selling price, maybe I could afford it again. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/drool.gif

[Mr70]

Tell me you at least kept the Chrysler 8tk demo tape..

[quick-bowtie]

So are you saying the body numbers are re-stamped? Just curious because I was told they were 100% original from the factory by a few different guys including Galen Id sure would like to know if I got taken! As for the the options alot are just some crazy off the wall options, nothing to really add alot of value to the car. I dont know why it is that if Galen makes a tag its as good as gold thats just the way with the Mopars are I guess..I know alot of research was done on the car so maybe they talked to the original owner and got the scoup.. I tracked down 2 of the previous owners in just a few minutes on the net.. They still live in Florida not far from where it was sold new. Either way its documented as to having Galen made the tag and has never been advertised other wise. Again the price will reflect what the car is and most guys buying a 71' Hemi car will spend $50 to talk to Galen and get his opinion on the car.

I believe Galen tracked down all the previous owner info and titles.. There is a recipt from the state of Florida to Galen from back then so the must have had copys and the original bill of origin on file back then. The car has only had I believe 4 owners if I remember correctly.

Either the car is what it is.. It is definatley cool that the historys of these cars can be brought up and people remember them.. Steve I cant beieve you didnt jump on it especially if you had a Built Hemi just sitting there.. temptation what have definately gotten the better of my forsure. Then again the car would probably be in 2 pieces today also..lol

Im pretty sure if the car sells the new owner will be happy with what he gets for the money.

[Johnny Horsepower]

Sorry quicky, I can't agree. I can only agree with the Clinton comparison. I know everyone wants to get the most for their car, but that description demands disclosure of a nom motor and non-original fender tags.
"Car is 3 Fender Tag car" we don't know if it is or not!
That wording, to me, implies that it came that way. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

As a buyer i would rather get a good and true full description of the car. Facts like it has a good and correct date coded motor. Eventually a buyer will see the attempt at "deception by omission" and will now doubt the whole car and probably walk.
I am from the camp of put the whole ball of wax out there, not semantic games.

that said, i hope the car does well. Its a very nice real, NOM, made up fender tag with great un documented options and a great looking resto 71 hemicuda. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

knowing the truth, you can't read that description and not feel a little violated.

just my opinion,

Respectfully,

John
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[quick-bowtie]

Im still lost to where it says it has the original drivetrain or even comes close to stating that? I can see the point on the fender tags and I dont know what his wording will be on the car when it cross's the block or what will be on the windsheild.. what is written on the website is just a quick prelim you send in to get your auction number.. If you look at Mecums coffee table book they just sent out they write there own ads for that.. its all hipe to get you there and then you look and see what you are going to bid on.

Here is what I know and go by when buying a Collector Car..

If the ad doesnt say NUMBERS MATCHING then it isnt..

Numbers Matching body numbers doesnt not come close to meaning Matching Numbers Drivetrain. (basically means its not a re-body)

ORIGINAL BORN WITH Numbers Matching means just as it states.. From the factory original!

Number Matching means just that take it with a grain of salt because more than likely its a restamp..(Or at least take a darn good look)

This is what I go by when buying and I make sure to ask too.. I didnt write the rules I just learned to adapt to them in this day and age. The wording seems to change daily and it is sad you cant take a guys word anymore but thats just the way it is when there is huge money invovled. As we all know you can still be taken even then that is where websites such as this are full of value and knowledge and can save your a**!

If someone is interested in the Hemi Cuda mentioned above.. It is a very nice car with a correct dated hemi engine with 3 tags that Galen made and goes by. If you want a REAL Hemi car with its original body numbers intact and cant afford or dont want to pay $800k and up for a Born with original numbers matching drivetrain 4 speed car, you will be more than happy with this car for well under 500k.

Again it isnt my car anymore so I cant say what the new owner will have for his real listing at the auction, but I can 100% promise if you ask him he will tell you its not a numbers matching car and Galen made the tags. 2 questions I would personally ask before bidding.. just common sense.

I would bet the auction ad will say it has a correct dated motor because most know its not a numbers car and the owner will want everyone to know it aleast has a correct dated engine. As for the tags that is what Galen has stated.. I dont know why he would add options he felt werent on the car to begin with.. when he doesnt even like making a tag for a car unless he knoes the history. Also if he was to put options on the tag that werent there Im sure he would have added BillBoards to the list because there not listed on the tag. Before you say it I know he has no way of Knowing what options the car came with forsure but he is pretty darn good at what he does so If I was in the market for a 1971 Hemi Cuda and couldnt afford 1/2 Million to 1 Million and really want a REAL car Id be more than happy with this car as Im sure who ever bids on it will. Ive never really heard of some guy dropping a million bucks on a car with out having it checked out in the first place.. Buyer beware does come in to place I guess, but so does stupidty at that point if you think your buying a million dollar car 50 cents on the dollar. JMO

[HEMIBEE]

didnt a curious yellow one sell this year for 450,000 or so that also had no tags and wrong motor???

[quick-bowtie]

Man I need to go back to school my spelling and writing is horrible! lol

Also who is all attending Mecum? would be cool if we could all meet in the bar at Pheasant Run for a beer.

[DarrenX33]

Lot of us locals will be there considering its right down the street. Would like to meet you Andy... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[quick-bowtie]

There was a Yellow one at Barrett that did some where around there I thought it was over 500k but I might be wrong.. I think it was found in pretty rough shape dont know about the motor or tags though.. with that price Im sure it reflected something being wrong though.. Pretty sure it was Steve Klein's car.

[quick-bowtie]

That would be cool to meet up.. were going down on the 3rd and staying until sunday, Im sure I will roaming around most of the time, my wife usually takes my truck and goes off shopping (only reason she goes.. lol) and Im stuck at the resort.. (not that that is a bad thing!!) I'll PM you my cell number..

[Johnny Horsepower]

i'll be there thurs-sat with my drinkin shoes on.

John

PS. i have used Galen on all my mopars and like and respect him.
i also think Dana Mecum's auctions are the best of the lot.

My comments are general references to sellers who......

[quick-bowtie]

I know what your sayin' I dont take any offence to the comments on the above car. For what the seller wants for it I could very easily end up back at my place if he has a few beers before it cross's the block and is in the giving mood or wants to take a beating on it. lol

I promised my wife I wouldnt bid more than 50k on any car. That would sure piss her off to see that car back home agian. lol

[Xplantdad]

Andy...take Darren and John go cart racing http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[njsteve]

From what I recall it was obviously a high option car from what evidence was still with it. The louvers were factory installed based on the mounting details, etc; the rear wing was original with the factory mounting plates and factory punched holes, not drilled; the billboards still had remnants left in the door jams; it was a rallye dash, leather interior car...Hey, Why the hell didn't I buy that thing? What an idiot I am. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

Now I remember: I think Tom and Greg were having a disagreement at the time over funding the restoration and proceeding forward, and as a friend and coworker I didnt want to get in the middle of it if I then bought it, restored it, and sold it for some crazy price.

At the time I had too many cars anyway and no more room in the storage garage: a yellow 69 hemi Daytona, the red 70 hemi R/T-SE (I still have), the orange and white 71 hemi Charger R/T sunroof car (that Tim Welborn now has), my Dad's 67 427 Corvette, the Project Pit Viper, my 1970 Raleigh Chopper bicycle, my wife's car, and my truck (which sat outside of course...) http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i30/nk15268a/garage1.jpg

[quick-bowtie]

Cool pic!!! what happened to the Daytona?

[quick-bowtie]

Is there a track around there?? I suppose I should practice so Bruce can look at the back of my helmet again this year..lol I dont know if I'll be able to fit into those monkeys suits this year.. Ive been a junk food bender for the last couple of months and it hasnt treated the belly well. lol

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
Cool pic!!! what happened to the Daytona?

[/ QUOTE ]

The Daytona was a one of one: the only Y2 yellow hemi built with the optional deluxe cloth insert interior. I sold the Daytona back in 1996 when the hemi market dipped and I wanted to buy a new Viper coupe. I had about 140k into it and I had trouble selling it. It eventually went for 80K. That same car sold about a year and a half ago for 630K. I guess that serves as a lesson about selling during perceived drops in market prices. Like real estate and its 7-year cycles, muscle cars have the same cyclic pricing wave. So if you all didnt sell your cars 2 years ago, I would be holding them for another few years and enjoying them til the wave comes back up again.

[njsteve]

Not to hijack my own thread but I came across some other photos while hunting for the hemicuda pictures. I posted them in the "Rotting Musclecars" thread...
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=291839&page=0&vc=1#Post2 91839

Colin, there is a car you may recognize there.