New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma!

[VintageMusclecar]

Could this (http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195350) be the beginning of the end for the bogus clones? I wonder if any other states have similar laws on the books, and if not, what it would take to get them ON the books.

Eric

[rubbinisracing]

Lynn....care to chime in?

[Verne_Frantz]

Yes Lynn, are you ready to go public with the project now????? It's been very hard to keep it to myself for so long, but now this ground breaking news is finally out in the open. And the more open, the better!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gifVerne

[njsteve]

Awesome! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif Now watch all the ebay adds for bogus tags now start adding a "not available for purchase or delivery to Oklahoma" disclaimer.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif But, on the other hand the statutory language now creates jurisdiction for a law enforcement officer in Oklahoma to prosecute anyone, anywhere, not just physically in Oklahoma, (read that as the internet, especially ebay) that offers a tag for sale, since the internet reaches (some parts of) Oklahoma. See language below"

"3. Manufacture, offer for sale, sell, introduce, import or deliver for sale or use in this state a counterfeit trim tag plate; or"

"4. Offer for sale, sell, introduce, import or deliver for sale or use in this state a trim tag plate that was affixed to a motor vehicle at the time of manufacture but has since been removed or become dislodged."

And, it makes the victim eligible for 3 times the damages plus costs and legal fees in a civil case for damages. WOW! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

This is plaintiff lawyer's wet dream! I can just see the TV ads now... "Have you been injured by the malicious affixation of a counterfeit trim tag? Call the law offices of Bendham, Over and Reamum. We are in your corner!

[VintageMusclecar]

[ QUOTE ]
...This is plaintiff lawyer's wet dream! I can just see the TV ads now... "Have you been injured by the malicious affixation of a counterfeit trim tag? Call the law offices of Bendham, Over and Reamum. We are in your corner!

[/ QUOTE ]

And you can bet the defendants will be represented by the law offices of Dewey, Cheatem and Howe http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Eric

[Verne_Frantz]

Steve,
I and others have repeatedly sent ebay letters to try and get them to ban the sale of trim tags, but their position was always that the trim tag didn't contain any "vehicle specific" information, like a VIN does. OF course, they're wrong, but they refused to budge. I wonder what they'll do once they've seen this new OK law????

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gifVerne

[PeteLeathersac]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes Lynn, are you ready to go public with the project now????? It's been very hard to keep it to myself for so long, but now this ground breaking news is finally out in the open. And the more open, the better!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gifVerne

[/ QUOTE ]

As Verne notes, it's nice things are out in the open now...also really great to see all of Lynn's hard work finally bearing fruit!.
It's sure going to be interesting to see how quickly things spread also the implications of this legislation...totally amazing what one small guy can make happen!!.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif
~ Pete

[69hurstSC]

this is awesome! there was a 71 Hornet SC in a junkyard near me with a missing VIN. i have always wanted to find the "clone" that the tag was applied to. it still amazes me conversing with retag owners and listening to how they proclaim there car as original or restored to original.

[Lynn]

Thanks for the email, Verne. I have been out of pocket much of the last few weeks, and have barely checked in on this site or on the Team Camaro site. Actually, I talked to a few guys about this at the Supercar Reunion, and yes, I am more than ready to go public with this. I really enjoyed the reunion. Even though I don’t have a Supercar or a COPO, I never felt like an outsider. Great car guys (and gals) and great conversation. And the cars! Bet I took 100 pictures of two REAL survivor cars with original paint. It was especially satisfying to put some faces with some of the names. Good to meet so many of you in person.

On to a more serious subject. Many of you know that I have been involved in the legislative process trying to get swapped trim tags and fake trim tags outlawed in Oklahoma. Well, as you can see, we were successful. It was relatively easy. It really did not take an inordinate amount of my time. I met with my State Senator, Glenn Coffee. Simply showed him some of the latest fraudulent auctions on ebay, and explained what was going on. He was shocked. He got Senator Myers (who has an old collectible Ford) to sponsor this legislation. I did a first draft, and, after meeting with some of the lawmakers and concerned lobbyists, only one rewrite (also consulted with Verne Frantz and some other guys to get some input). That’s it. Once the lawmakers saw what was happening with swapped and fake tags, they were on board. The bill in Oklahoma passed the Senate unanimously, and passed the House 87 – 10. The new law goes into effect November 1, 2007. Here it is, in its entirety:

An Act relating to motor vehicles; prohibiting certain acts relating to motor vehicle trim tag plates; providing exceptions; providing penalties; allowing defrauded persons to pursue civil action and recover certain damages; allowing court to award certain costs; defining terms; providing for codification; and providing an effective date.
BE IT ENACTED BY THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF OKLAHOMA:
SECTION 1. NEW LAW A new section of law to be codified in the Oklahoma Statutes as Section 4-107a of Title 47, unless there is created a duplication in numbering, reads as follows:
A. It shall be unlawful for any person to:
1. Knowingly and intentionally destroy, remove, cover, alter or deface, or cause to be destroyed, covered, removed, altered or defaced the trim tag plate of a motor vehicle manufactured from 1953 to 1977;
2. Knowingly affix a counterfeit trim tag plate to a motor vehicle;
3. Manufacture, offer for sale, sell, introduce, import or deliver for sale or use in this state a counterfeit trim tag plate; or
4. Offer for sale, sell, introduce, import or deliver for sale or use in this state a trim tag plate that was affixed to a motor vehicle at the time of manufacture but has since been removed or become dislodged.
B. Paragraph 1 of subsection A of this section shall not apply to:
1. Any person who engages in repair of a motor vehicle, provided that removal of the vehicle's trim tag plate is reasonably necessary for repair of a part of the vehicle to which the trim tag plate is affixed, and provided that such trim tag plate is not intentionally destroyed, altered or defaced; or
2. Removal of a trim tag from a motor vehicle which is being junked or otherwise destroyed, if the removal is being done for historical documentation purposes by a person actively involved in judging events or for historical documentation of classic motor vehicles and reasonable precaution is taken to ensure that the tag is not sold or affixed to another motor vehicle.
C. Any person convicted of violating the provisions of this act shall be guilty of a misdemeanor. Any person convicted of violating the provisions of this act a second or subsequent time shall be guilty of a felony.
D. In addition to any other civil remedy available, a person defrauded as a result of a violation of this act may bring a civil action against any person who knowingly violated this act regardless of whether that person has been convicted of a violation of this act. A person defrauded as a result of a violation of this act may recover treble their actual compensatory damages. In any action brought pursuant to this subsection, the court may award reasonable costs, including costs of expert witnesses, and attorney fees to the prevailing party.
E. As used in this section:
1. "Trim tag plate" means a plate or tag affixed to a motor vehicle by the manufacturer which displays numbers, symbols, or codes that identify characteristics of the vehicle including, but not limited to, date of manufacture, body style, paint color, engine option, transmission option, trim option, general option, interior option, and interior color;
2. "Counterfeit trim tag plate" means:
a. any trim tag plate manufactured by a person or entity other than the original manufacturer of a motor vehicle upon which the trim tag plate is designed to be affixed, unless the trim tag has been permanently stamped, in the same manner as other information on the trim tag, with the words "REPLACEMENT TAG" in letters measuring at least one-eighth (1/8) of an inch in height, or
b. any trim tag plate which has been altered from its original manufactured condition so as to change any of its numbers, symbols, or codes; and
3. "Motor vehicle" means the same as defined in Section 1-134 of Title 47 of the Oklahoma Statutes.
SECTION 2. This act shall become effective November 1, 2007.
Passed the Senate the 26th day of April, 2007.

______________________________________________
Presiding Officer of the Senate
Passed the House of Representatives the 18th day of April, 2007.
______________________________________________
Presiding Officer of the House of Representatives
Approved by the Governor of the State of Oklahoma on the 4 day of May, 2007, at 4:04 o’clock p.m.
______________________________________________
Governor of the State of Oklahoma


If you want to look it up on the OSCN (Oklahoma State Courts Network) you can go here:

http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=448975


I want to make it clear that this isn’t something that will be voted on. It has already passed and has been signed by the Gov. It will be the law in Oklahoma November 1. As Steve noted, it allows 3 times actual damages PLUS attorney fees. Why? Biggest problem most victims of tag fraud have when seeking recourse is simply that they can’t find a lawyer to take the case, and if they do, they can’t afford to hire the lawyer. It wasn’t intended so much to be a lawyer’s dream, as to turn the victim’s nightmare into the perpetrator’s nightmare. Also, as some guys noted on Team Chevelle, the state isn’t going to go looking for these guys. That is precisely why we gave it such strong civil remedies. Now the state won’t have to spend taxpayer money enforcing. In fact, I consulted with the head of white collar crime in the Oklahoma County DA’s office, and he suggested ultra strong civil remedies. Less work for his office.

It is my sincere desire that this is only the first of 51 steps. However, we need help from guys in all 50 states and D.C. You can use this law as a model law. I am not saying it is perfect, but then you and your legislators can change whatever you want. Send it to your representatives. I will be glad to compose a form letter of sorts in either Microsoft Word or Wordperfect format for you to send this to your representative. Ask him or her to introduce similar legislation in your state. Then follow up with an email. Then follow up with a phone call. Request a face to face meeting. These guys have folks on staff that can put the language in “bill” form. They just need something to model it after. Send me a PM or an email at [email protected]

How many times have some of you guys posted a link to an auction, or mentioned some car being sold with a swapped trim tag or an outright fake trim tag, and asked: “How can they get away with this?” or “Why isn’t this illegal?” Well, the reason it isn’t illegal is because no one ever passed a law making it illegal. You can do it in your state. I will be glad to help in any way I can. I know Verne would be glad to lend assistance as well.

Let me hear from you. I will be posting this on three web sites trying to garner some support. Time to quit whining and do something about it.

Thanks to the Administrators of this forum.

Lynn Bilodeau

[427king]

This is great news. I will change my mind though if i see attorneys handing out business cards with a booth setup at Carlisle.

[Lynn]

[ QUOTE ]
This is great news. I will change my mind though if i see attorneys handing out business cards with a booth setup at Carlisle.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[WILMASBOYL78]

Looks like the Oklahoma folks have it going on...first they deal a blow to the illegal aliens and now the trim tag rip off folks... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

..wonder what they will tackle next http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif



wilma http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Xplantdad]

Great news Lynn! BTW, it was a pleasure to meet up with you (though very briefly) at the reunion. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[55chevy]

Lynn.. Great job http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[ZL1#17]

CONGRATULATIONS, Job well done! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Mr70]

This is very good news to hear.I congratulate you on seeing it through.
Does this Okl. law include original style trim tag rivets as well?

[Hylton]

[ QUOTE ]
Does this Okl. law include original style trim tag rivets as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

I do not think so for the reason that it recognizes the fact that some individuals may have the need to remove the original trim tag to perform repairs on the car. If that is the case then by default, it must recognize the need to put the original trim tag back on with something.

[Verne_Frantz]

Boy, this new law is taking a bashing on a few sites. Seems that a lot of people are broadening the topic to include changing any parts they want to change on the car to make it appear as it "could" have been built. Trouble is........they also consider the trim tag simply as another "part". Once you change all the other equipment on the car, then the logical final step is to change the trim tag to go with it (just for points in judging of course.....ha ha). (by the way, points=dollars later)
That same kind of thinking has evolved into reproduced build sheets to go along with the whore presentation (that was a typo, but it was so appropriate, I left it).
And it can go even further. I've seen a complete 3-ring binder full of documentation, including fake receipts from repair shops for work on a 4-spd transmission.........when I know 100% from my research that the car was originally built with a P/G. And guess what, the restoration of that '63 Impala was done by a guy who specializes in Corvette restorations!!!

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gifVerne

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
Boy, this new law is taking a bashing on a few sites. Seems that a lot of people are broadening the topic to include changing any parts they want to change on the car to make it appear as it "could" have been built. Trouble is........they also consider the trim tag simply as another "part". Once you change all the other equipment on the car, then the logical final step is to change the trim tag to go with it (just for points in judging of course.....ha ha). (by the way, points=dollars later)
That same kind of thinking has evolved into reproduced build sheets to go along with the whore presentation (that was a typo, but it was so appropriate, I left it).
And it can go even further. I've seen a complete 3-ring binder full of documentation, including fake receipts from repair shops for work on a 4-spd transmission.........when I know 100% from my research that the car was originally built with a P/G. And guess what, the restoration of that '63 Impala was done by a guy who specializes in Corvette restorations!!!

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gifVerne

[/ QUOTE ]

They're probably the same "guys" who, after being dissatisfied with merely being tranvestites, go the full transexual route complete with the "gender reassignment" surgery. They then, logically, would try to have their birth certificates altered to show them as originally being equipped with female parts. After all, it's only for show, and who's getting harmed??? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

No one, unless you just happen to be the poor SOB who picks one up at a bar one night.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

...or buys one of those "transexualized" cars that was originally a green on green, 6 cylinder, powerglide, Camaro coupe and it's now, through the wonders of modern surgery, a X-coded, firewall tagged, Vin-swapped, Hugger Orange, cross rammed, JL8, RS-Z/28. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[Verne_Frantz]

Steve,
Your analogy to birth certificates is one I have used too. I consider the cowl tag as part of the birth certificate of the car, NOT intended to be altered.
One may be born Richard Wadd, so he can change his hair color, eye color, weight, height, hose, chin, belly and butt cosmetically. But even if he changes his birth certificate, he's really still just a Dick Wadd. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gifVerne

[Hylton]

[ QUOTE ]
Boy, this new law is taking a bashing on a few sites.

[/ QUOTE ]

You've said it Verne. Some of the guys who are bashing are hovering on every single word and acting like the law was developed over a few beers at an Okee barn raising party. It's amazing how many armed chair lawyers are out there!

[njsteve]

Yeah. Leave the arm chair lawyering to us real lawyers. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[Hylton]

Pro bono work? Right.... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[427king]

A lawyer calls his client to tell him about his fee schedule.

"Alright," the lawyer says looking through his papers. "You owe me $1000 down and $417.58 cents each month for the next thirty-six months.

"What! That sounds like a car payment schedule," retorted the client.

"Your right. It's mine."

[Verne_Frantz]

Please, let's not turn this into ANOTHER lawyer bashing thread.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
For those of us who aren't in this hobby just to make money, this thread has far reaching meaning.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gifVerne

[Jonesy]

No, the guys bashing it are guys who never frequent the camaros.net and got kicked off this site and others.
Basically 1 guy. That is not the concensus of the members over there!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[Canucklehead]

It seems to me that the ones that would be bitching over this are people with skeletons in their closet. But then again it dosent matter how it is written some crook will find a loophole and exploit it. They will never stop when there is a buck to be made.

[Hylton]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems to me that the ones that would be bitching over this are people with skeletons in their closet. But then again it dosent matter how it is written some crook will find a loophole and exploit it. They will never stop when there is a buck to be made.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you may have hit the nail on the head!

[PeteLeathersac]

So after this is implimented, if someone offers a vehicle for sale on eBay or elsewhere that has a conterfeit trim tag affixed, they'd now have to state in the ad that it's not available to residents in the State of Oklahoma?. And maybe not even the reason why will have to be disclosed, but a knowing seller should include this disclaimer to avoid legal troubles...also seeing this could become a good tip off that it knowingly has conterfeit tag(s)?.

~ Pete
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/youguysrock.gif

[Mr70]

I forsee an Ebaymotors catch phrase comin...."Not OK in Ok."

[rubbinisracing]

"Void where prohibited"

[Lynn]

Wow. Think I will hang out here for awhile. Much friendlier than over at Camaros.net right now. Although, as someone stated, the opposition is definitely in the minority.

Verne: "whore presentation" OMG, I didn't even notice the typo until you pointed it out. Almost spewed coffee all over the screen. Then I read about Mr. Wadd. I am sure my legal assistant thinks I am in here losing my mind. Thanks man. I needed a good laugh today.


Ed. I need to get up to Tulsa, and have a beer with you. I had corresponded with your good friend Larry just a couple of weeks before he passed, planning to get up there for a beer, but didn't make it in time. Even though I never met him, I felt a connection to him as I do with all the "real car guys" I cross paths with. I think it would be awesome if you and I could meet in person and raise a couple of cold ones to Larry. I know you miss that S.O.B.

Sorry for the personal notes.

BTW, just in case anyone is still reading this, it is the camaraderie of the "real car guys" that make this hobby as great as it is. In a way it is a shame that the economics have become what they are. That is what has brought out all of the snakes. Like Murray (Canucklehead) said: "They will never stop when there is a buck to be made." I just want to make it much more difficult. Hit them in the pocketbook. Since that is what matters most to them, that's where it should hurt the most.

Thanks again for all the support.

Lynn Bilodeau

[VintageMusclecar]

(if I may butcher a snipet of "Hamlet" for a moment...)

Methinks some doth protest too much. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

[427king]

Im going to bid the moon on every fake trim tag car out of OK i can find. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[agtw31]

who would enforce the law,the highway patrol?

[SmallHurst]

[ QUOTE ]
who would enforce the law,the highway patrol?

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably so. In Missouri and Kansas, you must actually bring the vehicle in so that title transfer and inspection can occur. Guess who does this? It will not take long for the fakes to be found.

[king_midas]

It's like that in Cali. also, and they also look at the vin. When my wife brought her Honda in, they also looked to make sure the engine number matched; that surprised me.

The cops don't even look at tags; I'm not sure what you mean, SmallHurst....

[Xplantdad]

No Lynn...thank you. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[mrrec]

[ QUOTE ]
No Lynn...thank you. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with Bruce.....

I don't really see a downside to this. The complainers (wonder what their motivation is.....)seem to miss the paragraph about legitimate removal, etc. Resto is covered and exempt the way it appears to me. It's a non-issue.

Dave

[70CitrusZ]

Some random thoughts.....
I just hope this law doesn't impact innocent people negatively. Sure its a great tool in the fight against fraud, but it won't stop the problem, and isn't the total answer.
For one thing,I think that more pressure needs to be put on the manufacturers to come up with and maintain the records on the vehicle data related to the vin.
There should be hell to pay for GM simply saying "we don't have those documents". Once again the onus falls to the little guy and the big corporations are off scott free.
Imagine if you will, that GM was forced to dig up the documents that they have. There would be no question as to the authenticity of a vehicle.
In Canada we are spoiled, because any Canadian sold GM vehicle has micro fiche stored vin based corporate documentation available to anyone with a vin,not just the vehicle owner, so there is no possibility of "faking" a tag to read what you want it to read.

Also, companies that sell replacement trim tags should be forced to visually document damaged originals in order to replace them, and then the original then marked/logged in such a way as to void its further reproduction or alteration. These company's records should be spot checked periodically to validate they are correct and complete.

Another thing is, I know of more than a few people who during a resto, remove the plates from the car to either dip or blast the body, and prevent damage to the plates. Having done that makes them a criminal? I don't feel that is right. A proper and complete concours resto on a rusty shell cannot occur without introducing potentially hazardous materials and processes to the tags, which are really quite fragile. I realize there is provision for this in the law, but what is to stop a person from causing trouble for someone else who has done this for legitimate reason? who is to say if it was a legitimate reason or not? It is now at his cost and expense to prove otherwise that he did not have criminal intention. Even if he is innocent its gonna cost him some money to prove his innocence.

Lastly keep in mind, that in the eighties and early nineties before there was so much aftermarket sheetmetal available, a common and generally accepted way of fixing a really rusty rare car was to re-body it fully or partially.
I really thought nothing of people who were replacing rusty muscle car bodies with six cylinder grandma car rust free bodies, it all seemed fine and good, and actually a lot of people preferred this method as it retained the factory assembly techniques and engineering, which was better than hammered up patch panels ,bondo and chicken wire.
Are the people who currently buy and sell these cars from early restorations headed for the slammer too?.

How exactly does one prove that the current seller of the car made the changes, authorized the changes, or even knew about the changes when the vehicle has had multiple owners, or been farmed out for restoration?.

Another casualty will be people who have been unknowingly ripped off and (also unknowingly) own a fake tagged car. They will potentially be criminals when they do not deserve to be.
Not all car enthusists or owners are experts on their cars, in fact these days more of the opposite is true. More and more of the muscle car owners group, especially the really pricey cars, really don't do anything more than buy and store the cars.
So, simply saying "they should have known, because all us car guys know these two numbers line up to make the tag be legit etc" Is not a fair or accurate statement.

....I think that the law isn't a bad one, but, it most certainly will be nearly impossible to prosecute fairly, anyone under it, unless an eye witness to the illegal activity can be produced, and plenty of evidence supporting that the illegal activity that has taken place, has actually been done by the seller of the vehicle is provided.
Without iron clad irrefutable evidence, it is both unfair and unjust to prosecute a seller of a questionable vehicle.

Just my .02, well maybe .25..I rambled a bit.

Mark

[70 copo]

Mark,

I agree. I have followed this thread with intrest. First off I am against trim tag removal or replacement, but this law is toothless. Now when I think of this law I wonder just how the goverment will find a bonified way to convict a bad guy with no vehicle records from GM to prove the TT is fake in the first place?

The most likely way to convict would be to get subject "B" to testify that he or she witnessed subject "A" switch the tag.

IMO the best way to fix the problem is to outlaw the tags right? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

[Hylton]

[ QUOTE ]
Some random thoughts.....
I just hope this law doesn't impact innocent people negatively. Sure its a great tool in the fight against fraud, but it won't stop the problem, and isn't the total answer.
For one thing,I think that more pressure needs to be put on the manufacturers to come up with and maintain the records on the vehicle data related to the vin.
There should be hell to pay for GM simply saying "we don't have those documents". Once again the onus falls to the little guy and the big corporations are off scott free.
Imagine if you will, that GM was forced to dig up the documents that they have. There would be no question as to the authenticity of a vehicle.


[/ QUOTE ]

All of us would love nothing more than for GM to cough up those docs. Having said that, it will do nothing for fraudsters who take VIN numbers known from GM docs and turn them into cars by buying fake VIN and trim tags and slapping them on a clean body.

[ QUOTE ]

In Canada we are spoiled, because any Canadian sold GM vehicle has micro fiche stored vin based corporate documentation available to anyone with a vin,not just the vehicle owner, so there is no possibility of "faking" a tag to read what you want it to read.


[/ QUOTE ]

True but docs are not the be all and end all with respect to eliminating fraud in the hobby. As stated before, you can still make a car from nothing more than a GM of Canada doc.

[ QUOTE ]

Another thing is, I know of more than a few people who during a resto, remove the plates from the car to either dip or blast the body, and prevent damage to the plates. Having done that makes them a criminal? I don't feel that is right. A proper and complete concours resto on a rusty shell cannot occur without introducing potentially hazardous materials and processes to the tags, which are really quite fragile. I realize there is provision for this in the law, but what is to stop a person from causing trouble for someone else who has done this for legitimate reason? who is to say if it was a legitimate reason or not? It is now at his cost and expense to prove otherwise that he did not have criminal intention. Even if he is innocent its gonna cost him some money to prove his innocence.


[/ QUOTE ]

There are provisions for people who are repairing or restoring a car. It is not illegal for someone to remove the trim tag for restoration purposes.

[ QUOTE ]

Lastly keep in mind, that in the eighties and early nineties before there was so much aftermarket sheetmetal available, a common and generally accepted way of fixing a really rusty rare car was to re-body it fully or partially.
I really thought nothing of people who were replacing rusty muscle car bodies with six cylinder grandma car rust free bodies, it all seemed fine and good, and actually a lot of people preferred this method as it retained the factory assembly techniques and engineering, which was better than hammered up patch panels ,bondo and chicken wire.
Are the people who currently buy and sell these cars from early restorations headed for the slammer too?.


[/ QUOTE ]

Just remove the fake tag.

[ QUOTE ]

Another casualty will be people who have been unknowingly ripped off and (also unknowingly) own a fake tagged car. They will potentially be criminals when they do not deserve to be.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well if they are attempting to "pass the buck" then yes, they should be. If someone found out they were screwed and then turned around and tried to sell the car as is to someone else, then they are guilty of fraud. Remember the law uses the word "knowingly" so if someone truly believes that they are selling a legitimate car even though they are not, then the law would not apply to them but rather look at who he bought the car from and so-on. Whoever placed the trim tag on the car is the one who ultimately guilty. If someone finds out he bought a dud and then wants to sell it, I suggest removing the trim tag and leaving the car without one or buy a fake trim tag with the word "replacement" on it.

[king_midas]

Hylton - So basically what you're saying with your last statement is that the man/woman that got ripped off, maybe not even knowingly, should remove the trim tag, or clearly mark it as "bastardized"; therefore almost certainly taking it hard in the buttocks, and selling that re-bodied or re-tagged Z for half to a quarter of the price that they paid for it?

Yeah-- Keep dreaming. I don't think that's going to happen.

Those in favor of this are more than well on their way to completely collapsing/wrecking the vintage GM market...

[69LM1]

[ QUOTE ]
Hylton - So basically what you're saying with your last statement is that the man/woman that got ripped off, maybe not even knowingly, should remove the trim tag, or clearly mark it as "bastardized"; therefore almost certainly taking it hard in the buttocks, and selling that re-bodied or re-tagged Z for half to a quarter of the price that they paid for it?

Yeah-- Keep dreaming. I don't think that's going to happen.

Those in favor of this are more than well on their way to completely collapsing/wrecking the vintage GM market...

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow! So what you are saying midas is that the person who got screwed should pass the fake car on to the next guy? That's not cool either............

At least with this law that guy COULD choose to go back to the seller and get his money back, if not, the seller could face 3x damages!

[king_midas]

Uh, no, what I'm saying is that you have people right now that own cars that are "incorrectly" tagged with no intent to commit fraud. What you guys are basically saying is: "Too bad sucker. Now prepare to lose your arse." This is thus a financial hardship, and what I'm saying is that it will wreck the hobby.

Besides, what delusional thought do you have to think that anyone would actually own up to actually replacing a tag? Or that the poor sap that unknowingly has a car w/a replacement tag, or an unknown re-body would waste time/money to track down previous owners?

Yeah, right...

Here's a good one: "My car was being restored, and that's the way it came back to me. I had no idea..." That would be my defense, and I'd tell you to pound it.

What if that X66 you have is fake? How do you know it's not and/or what proof do you have? We all know that engine and tranny stamping can be done all over the place, and that all paperwork can be faked. Oh no, here we go...

Hey, maybe the dealer wrecked and re-bodied it... Who knows-- 1969 was 38 years ago. A guy that worked for my father years ago worked at a Ford dealer, and the maintenance guys tore up a new Boss 302 badly, which was then fixed. Hey, it's possible. Cars are nothing more than consumer goods-- Durable goods, really. So, back to the X66-- What do you do if you have to sell it, and you have to defend yourself?

See what I mean... Changes a bit, doesn't it...?

I would say that the possibility of a re-tag or re-body is just part of owning a Chevy, or any vintage car, but especially a Chevy... And that's the way it is.

[Charley Lillard]

Too easy...remove the fake tag. Yes it is not worth what it was but that is what happens when you buy a car with a fake tag. Hard to get sued if you sell it without a fake tag.

[king_midas]

What? Have you been drinking tonight? Heavily...?

Charlie-- You can't be serious. Navigate my scenario above (X66), and I'd like your thoughts.

I read this on Team Camaro-- When the factory makes errors, doesn't that set a precedence that tags were in a bucket, and the possibility exists that they were mis-attached to cars?

Maybe call some guys from Norwood to the stand to testify? Please...

I have the ultimate solution-- Just buy VN or LOS tags and VINS... It's really too easy.

You all should be mad at Chevrolet-- They've let you all down, and dropped the ball big-time on the hobbyst.

[P.J.]

I wonder that if gm is asked to produce records of a car as ordered by the court as to the originality of a car would they produce it, for only the car in question ???

PJ

[Hylton]

[ QUOTE ]
Uh, no, what I'm saying is that you have people right now that own cars that are "incorrectly" tagged with no intent to commit fraud. What you guys are basically saying is: "Too bad sucker. Now prepare to lose your arse." This is thus a financial hardship, and what I'm saying is that it will wreck the hobby.


[/ QUOTE ]

The people who right now have a fake trim tag are in no different position than before this law came out. Let's say for example that someone who does not know he has a faked car, sells it to someone in Oklahoma and the buyer then decides to pursue the seller through this new law, the seller would not be held liable since he did not "knowingly" sell a car with a fake trim tag. If you are attempting to sell a car with a fake trim tag, either remove it, or get an acceptable tag. If you have a car with a fake trim tag but have no desire to sell the car, just enjoy the car as this law was not written for you.

As far as the lose your arse comment, this happens every day in this hobby unfortunately. Someone buys what they thought is the real thing, only to find out later that they do not have what they thought they bought. Anyone in this situation has lost money at the buy because they paid too much for what they really have. They in fact, may be the victim of fraud themselves. If the person upon finding out he has been taken attempts to sell the car with the fake trim tag to an Oklahoman, they are guilty of the law because they know the trim tag is fake. Nobody wants to be caught holding the bag but just because you were screwed, doesn't make it right (or legal) to "pass the buck".

[Charley Lillard]

There are those that like to think of all the things wrong with something and why something won't work and there are those that do stuff like pass the Ok tag law and get things done. You can nitpick it all you want with technicalities but your average judge or jury will probably use common sense.

[Lynn]

"...you have people right now that own cars that are "incorrectly" tagged with no intent to commit fraud. What you guys are basically saying is: "Too bad sucker. Now prepare to lose your arse." This is thus a financial hardship, and what I'm saying is that it will wreck the hobby."


So... someone passes me a counterfeit $100... Even if I find out it is counterfeit, it is OK to pass on, because it would create a financial hardship?

I buy a fake Renoir, Dali whatever... Even if I find out it is a fake, it is OK to sell it as genuine because otherwise it would create a financial hardship?

Don't get me wrong, I have much sympathy for the guy who purchased the car with the fake tag UNKNOWINGLY. But let's lay blame for this right where it belongs. On the guy who swapped the tag to begin with.

Charley has nailed it.

[ QUOTE ]
Too easy...remove the fake tag. Yes it is not worth what it was but that is what happens when you buy a car with a fake tag. Hard to get sued if you sell it without a fake tag.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or, stamp "replacement tag" on it.

Just my two cents.

Lynn

[67rscoupe]

[ QUOTE ]
What? Have you been drinking tonight? Heavily...?

Charlie-- You can't be serious. Navigate my scenario above (X66), and I'd like your thoughts.



[/ QUOTE ]

i agree!!!
what if somebody purchased a car for big dollars.then years later when he went to sell it and then discovered the fake tag?

your going to sit there completely surprised http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
the exact same look that a person that knew the tag was fake http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

now,the judge will be able to tell a innocent persons surprised look from a guilty persons surprised look?

now your supposed to let the court decide? just sit there and hope your average judge or jury will probably use common sense?


that worries me.

[67rscoupe]

[ QUOTE ]
Too easy...remove the fake tag. Yes it is not worth what it was but that is what happens when you buy a car with a fake tag. Hard to get sued if you sell it without a fake tag.

[/ QUOTE ]

how do you do this when you sell your car and had no idea the tag was fake?

only a guilty party would know it was a fake tag...

now the car is sold! now your in court! you lose! now you pay big dollars! up to 3 times?

wow! that would just kill me! more than my house is worth!

explain that!

[elcamino72]

I'm 100% on board with this new legislation and I look forward to working in Pennsylvania to effecutate something similiar.

I may be a lawyer but I'm in this and 100% behind this law to protect other hobbyists, period. The hobby needs protection and thats what I do every chance I get.

Great work guys!!!

Bryan Shook

[70CitrusZ]

..of course the lawyers like the law..$$$$..(j.k).
I think my points may have been misunderstood, all I was trying to say was good luck trying to nail anyone with this law, there is way too much grey area. no one will benefit from it but the lawyers.
...By the way, the first comment of my paragraph is just meant as a fictional comedic relief, and in no way reflects my true feelings towards any individual either alive or dead, nor any group or faction, or necessarily any one who is was or has been a lawyer or any other meaning that might get me into more trouble than I can talk my way out of.

[70 copo]

I agree. IMO perhaps the best way to still get a bad guy is actually in civil court but likely only worth it on a big dollar car.

Unless GM produces the actual vehicle build records I do think the Oklahoma law is worth much unless the reproduction of the tags is regulated and recorded by the government at the point of sale, meaning that you and the government both know that the tag is potentially being purchaced to create a reproduction of a specific vehicle type.

Prerequsite: Identify and gain access to all the Fake TT sales records from the producers of these tags. Create a D base where a prospective customer could check the TT with the Government prior to purchase.

Next how to handle the "tag collectors". The material fact of a purchase becomes a perminant record that is associated with the tag and its content. Should someone choose to attach it to a vehicle then simply regulate the sale and transfer of the tag also. Make it illegal to attach it to a vehicle without registration and approval by the BMV.

BMV could then alter the title to state that the vehicle is a "REPRODUCTION" and the vehicle then becomes legal to sell as such.


The down side is if someone chooses to clone an existing car and fake the VIN# tag also. Then there may be two or more of one type of a specific car and establishing which one is the "real car" then could become the issue.

Of course all of the above would be utterly nuts to codify and enforce- IMO it really IS buyer beware. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

[tryconcom]

Jeez Richard....

[Steve Shauger]

Moderators please edit the above post regarding the Streisand quote. Not needed or appropriate.

[VintageMusclecar]

Richard...that little closing comment is completely out of line. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

Eric

[PeteLeathersac]

[ QUOTE ]
Richard...that little closing comment is completely out of line. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

Eric

[/ QUOTE ]

And surprisingly inappropriate coming from a retired naval officer?.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif
~ Pete

[Hylton]

The only people I can see being upset about this law are the people who make a living misrepresenting cars they restore/sell or guys who have a car with a fake trim tag in their garage. I suspect Richard is the latter.

[tryconcom]

Yes we do edit free speech here...Keep politics out of it. Plenty of other sites to talk politics.












I

[427.060]

What you said has nothing to do with free speech. It is insulting to members here that happen to be lawyers. By your comments, it's obvious that you didn't read the law concerning the trim tags. It's not about stoppong reproduction parts including trim tags. It's about trying to stop people from losing their money because someone is knowingly selling a car with a fake or swapped trim tag. If you have a problem with that, you may not need to be in this hobby.
James

[tryconcom]

Gentilmen: it has everything to do with free speach-just because I am saying something that certain people don't like doesn't automatically remove my right to say it. What if camaro owners decided they didn't like yenko chevells-are you going muzzle all camaro owners speaking their mind.

[Steve Shauger]

[ QUOTE ]
Gentilmen: it has everything to do with free speach-just because I am saying something that certain people don't like doesn't automatically remove my right to say it. What if camaro owners decided they didn't like yenko chevells-are you going muzzle all camaro owners speaking their mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only point I took exception to was, hoping a certain group would get a terminal disease. If you can't see that as being absolutely inappropriate and wrong, then maybe you don't deserve the privilege of posting on this site.

If you consider that free speech then take your act elsewhere. Many people including my family has been stricken with that disease. Move on or be banned!

[Rixls6]

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e43/Rixls6/BannedSmiley.gif

[VintageMusclecar]

[ QUOTE ]
Gentilmen: it has everything to do with free speach-just because I am saying something that certain people don't like doesn't automatically remove my right to say it. What if camaro owners decided they didn't like yenko chevells-are you going muzzle all camaro owners speaking their mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

This isn't a streetcorner for you to spout off on, it's an internet forum that has certain rules and guidelines put in place by the owners and moderators that people are expected to follow if they are going to participate here. "Free speech" isn't for you to decide when you are a guest in someone else's home (i.e. here), and your previous post should clearly show the reason why.

Along those lines...if you can't discern the difference between someone who says they don't like Yenkos/Camaros/whatever, and what you stated in your previous post, then discussing this any further is a waste of time.

(That's sad, really.)

Eric

[x Baldwin Motion]

[ QUOTE ]
Gentilmen : it has everything to do with free speach -just because I am saying something that certain people don't like doesn't automatically remove my right to say it. What if camaro owners decided they didn't like yenko chevells -are you going muzzle all camaro owners speaking their mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Normally, you wouldn't make E-4 with spelling like that.
Retired Naval Officer? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[Verne_Frantz]

Letz keepe thies threed onn tohipc! Otay?

[Lynn]

[ QUOTE ]
Letz keepe thies threed onn tohipc! Otay?

[/ QUOTE ]


OOOOOOtay!!!

[Lynn]

Deleted by poster. Decided a PM was more appropriate.

[Verne_Frantz]

I wish I could have read your response Lynn... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

Verne

OOOOOOTAY!!!!!!!

[Seattle Sam]

[ QUOTE ]

i agree!!!
what if somebody purchased a car for big dollars.then years later when he went to sell it and then discovered the fake tag?

your going to sit there completely surprised http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
the exact same look that a person that knew the tag was fake http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

now,the judge will be able to tell a innocent persons surprised look from a guilty persons surprised look?

now your supposed to let the court decide? just sit there and hope your average judge or jury will probably use common sense?


that worries me.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you unknowingly sold me a car with fake tags, and then it became known, why would it end up in court? Would you refuse to take the car back, since it was not what you represented?

[joey]

My only problem with this law is,#! buyers remorse lets say someone spends 100k on a z28 and a year later says I cant get my money back out of it so I will sue the seller. I dont think its real, because the intake is dated 2 weeks off or it has replacement rims or there is no putty on the cowl tag rivetts so it must be a fake.Who is to say they can tell what every car most definitly is or was ,I know of no one.Some think they can but thats just it they think they can but can they prove it? I doubt it because most all of them have allready made mistakes! Now I do think this is a good move in the right dirrection but only time will tel!!

[Steve Shauger]

[ QUOTE ]
My only problem with this law is,#! buyers remorse lets say someone spends 100k on a z28 and a year later says I cant get my money back out of it so I will sue the seller. I dont think its real, because the intake is dated 2 weeks off or it has replacement rims or there is no putty on the cowl tag rivetts so it must be a fake.Who is to say they can tell what every car most definitly is or was ,I know of no one.Some think they can but thats just it they think they can but can they prove it? I doubt it because most all of them have allready made mistakes! Now I do think this is a good move in the right dirrection but only time will tel!!

[/ QUOTE ]


What the heck are you talking about. Your scenario has nothing to do with the law as introduced. Try reading it first before commenting geez. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[427king]

Actually his idea isnt far fetched. Im sure someone that buys a car for big money and simply made a mistake buying a nicely done clone for big$$ could easily change the tag himself and start a lawsuit. I see it all the time on parts, someone finds a part on ebay for 1/2 of what they just paid and suddenly they want to return the part or all of a sudden they noticed a defect. That trim tag law does give this type of person a little loophole if the buyer is dishonest and simply wants out of his own mistake . Try proving as a seller that the trim tag on a car isnt the one you sold it with.

[Charley Lillard]

Taking a nice pic of the trim tag on the car before you sell it would probably cover it especially if it was a ebay add that everyone saw.

[Hylton]

[ QUOTE ]
Taking a nice pic of the trim tag on the car before you sell it would probably cover it especially if it was a ebay add that everyone saw.

[/ QUOTE ]

That, and a clear declaration by both parties in the bill of sale acknowledging the state of the car, including the trim tag (and everything else for that matter).

[Steve Shauger]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually his idea isnt far fetched. Im sure someone that buys a car for big money and simply made a mistake buying a nicely done clone for big$$ could easily change the tag himself and start a lawsuit. I see it all the time on parts, someone finds a part on ebay for 1/2 of what they just paid and suddenly they want to return the part or all of a sudden they noticed a defect. That trim tag law does give this type of person a little loophole if the buyer is dishonest and simply wants out of his own mistake . Try proving as a seller that the trim tag on a car isnt the one you sold it with.

[/ QUOTE ]

In that case he would be a criminal, based on this law. I doubt the owner who swapped tags (because he was unhappy with the car), would then report it to the authorities (knowing what he did was unlawful) so that he could get his money back from the previous owner. This thing has been what iffed to death. I think there's a better chance of a ZL1 engine floating up from the bottom of the Connecticut river. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[PeteLeathersac]

Ok, here it's Nov. 20'th and thanks to Lynn and others hard work, the Oklahoma legislation has been law for a few weeks already.. So what now as there's obviously still tons of tags selling daily on eBay and elsewhere?. If there's any chance of at least getting eBay to stop assisting the problem, should we who care maybe band together in some way and do something to get eBay's attention?. I'm thinking we perhaps target a few specific auctions and in a consistant fashion, report them as illegal items being sold and citing the Oklahoma law?. I just can't help but feel if this things truly gonna' have any bite, the sooner we act, the more chance of it ever being possible?. Anyone else have any other ideas...or care?.

Here's an current example we could start with...even has the Vin tag included!.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1962-Chev...sspagenameZWDVW (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1962-Chevy-Impala-2-Door-Hardtop-Cowl-Tag-Nice-62_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ10076QQihZ016QQitemZ 260183489934QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW)

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
~ Pete

[Allen]

This isn't Ebay's problem. They provide the venue for selling things.... that's it.

Using the logic of it being Ebay's problem, then all swap meets, auto trader magazines, car corrals at a show, Hemmings, etc. should all be charged with policing the cars for sale. Where there any cars with tag issues at Vettefest for sale? If yes, is it Vettefest's problem to resolve?

The car owners are to be accountable for their actions, not something/someone else.

[x Baldwin Motion]

Anyone else have any other ideas...or care?.

Here's an current example we could start with...even has the Vin tag included!.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1962-Chev...sspagenameZWDVW (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1962-Chevy-Impala-2-Door-Hardtop-Cowl-Tag-Nice-62_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ10076QQihZ016QQitemZ 260183489934QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW)

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
~ Pete

[/ QUOTE ]


from the ad; THIS TRIM TAG WILL ONLY BE SOLD WITH BUYER READING AND AGREEING TO BELOW SALES CONTRACT, IF YOU DO NOT AGREE DO NOT BID!

******THIS TRIM TAG IS BEING SOLD SOLEY WITH THE INTENT FOR BUYERS PERSONAL USE AND NOVELTY USE ONLY, AND IS NOT SOLD FOR PURPOSES OF RESELLING OR MISREPRESENTING OF CARS IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM AND THEREFORE WITH THE BUYING OF THIS TRIM TAG THE BUYER AGREES AND UNDERSTANDS IT IS THERE SOLE RESPONSIBILTY AND WILL BE BUYERS SOLE LIABILITY ON WHAT HE OR SHE DOES WITH SAID TRIM TAG , SELLER HAS NO CONTROL AND ASSUMES NO LIABILITY WHATSOEVER AFTER SALE IS COMPLETED ********


who would buy that for a novelty at $100.00? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
VIN removal and sale is a federal crime, is it not?
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Charley.gif

[PeteLeathersac]

No it's not eBay's problem...at least not unless they end up liable to someone who can afford to push a case through the courts?.
The immediate problem more belongs to the innocents who stuck w/ a fraudulent deal and can't afford the legal struggles...also to an extent those of us who care about the history and values of genuine cars sufferng as they're watered down w/ the tagged stuff?.
With eBay being the major venue for loose tags, getting co-operation from them would put the biggest dent of all in this action...also perhaps make other venues think about offering their sale as well?.
As far as cars w/ tag issues for sale anywhere , that's no doubt too tough of an issue to consider policing or debating each case...but the loose tag action being shut down is possible and the sooner that could ever happen, the less new tag issue cars are created?.
I have no magic answers nor feel like taking on a giant either...but I admire how far Lynn and the others have taken things so far and do feel there truly is a possibility to get eBay to include the loose tag sales in their prohibited items lists if we get on them now while the legislation is fresh?. Anyone else feel it's possible too or what?.

~ Pete
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/youguysrock.gif

[njsteve]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone else have any other ideas...or care?.

Here's an current example we could start with...even has the Vin tag included!.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1962-Chev...sspagenameZWDVW (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1962-Chevy-Impala-2-Door-Hardtop-Cowl-Tag-Nice-62_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ10076QQihZ016QQitemZ 260183489934QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW)

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
~ Pete

[/ QUOTE ]

What a doofus. Calling a VIN tag an "other tag" doesnt suddenly make it legal. Adding a disclaimer at the end doesnt do anything either but serve notice that he knows it's illegal. He doesnt seem to get the fact that the felony is SELLING the VIN tag. If the buyer puts it on his car, that is a second felony. If he sells that car misrepresenting it as an original car, that is fraud which is usually something that civil lawsuits get filed over.

[Verne_Frantz]

Allen,
While "technically" I'd have to agree that it's not "ebay's problem", ebay does have a list of items that are on their banned list, such as firearms and porn. As I have stated before, I and others have sent ebay messages urging them to add trim tags to their banned list, but their response is that those tags contain no "vehicle specific" information like a VIN tag does. Of course they're wrong, because there are no two alike, but they've been blind to that.
Now that selling a tag is illegal in one state, I'd think they'd have to take notice and not allow the ad.
Ebay, swap meets, auctions, Hemmings, etc are not being put in the position of policemen looking for cars with questionable tags. But the simple act of selling a tag itself or accepting an ad for one for sale through their venue is knowingly allowing the law to be broken.

I would think a good "next step" would be to send a hard copy of the law (with a cover letter) to ebay, Hemmings, etc, then wait to see if they do the right thing. I would also be inclined to let Lynn decide on the wording and method for that "next step". I hope he will offer his opinion here.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gifVerne