Replicating Factory Spot Weld Appearance

[68bird400HO]

For putting a new quarter on (NOS or otherwise), most bodyguys do not have the equipment to spot weld it like the factor did. Most bodyguys plug weld and grind smooth. Does anyone have any techniques for easily replicated the spotwelded look around the wheel opening lips (or other areas)?

[CamarosRus]

This forum below will go much further in answering your question................

http://autobodystore.com/forum and click general discussion

[68bird400HO]

Thanks for the link. I will check it out. If just figured I would try here since with the pedigree and quality of cars that hang out here, someone restoring theirs would have probably found a way to do it. I would still be interested in hearing of anyone's successes here with this.

[jasonL78]

I heard of one guy using a pencil eraser during the priming stage to make a small dimple to look like the factory spot welds. I seen a picture and it looked real good.

Jason

[Nova Jed]

I don't mean to HIJACK, but does anyone still use the resistance spot welders in resto's?

[plumL78]

We have one here in my shop but it not one of the cheep ones. Its a pro spot brand and they are around 12k to buy. Thats how we build camaros here at the shop. It is an awsome tool. I have many pics but I don't know how to put them on this sight. If you want to see them I can email them to some body that can load them

[m22mike]

Here is a vice grip I made to dimple wheel well lips I had to repair.
The only thing I need to do here is reverse the dies from whats in the picture so it gives more clearance up in the wheel well.
This thing worked well and I did not use any heat.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b107/m22mike/SpotWeld002.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b107/m22mike/SpotWeld001.jpg

Mike

[Salvatore]

[ QUOTE ]
We have one here in my shop but it not one of the cheep ones. Its a pro spot brand and they are around 12k to buy. Thats how we build camaros here at the shop. It is an awsome tool. I have many pics but I don't know how to put them on this sight. If you want to see them I can email them to some body that can load them

[/ QUOTE ]Kerry, You do some real nice work!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[Bob]

Here is an example of my attempt at faking spot welds.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b55/70Deuce/Quarter%20Panels/IMG_1162.jpg

[68bird400HO]

Mike, I would be interested in seeing the results using your vice grip approach.

Bob, what method did you use to get those results?

A couple of ideas I had were to either use a round punch and hammer or to use a flat end drill bit and just lightly scratch in the circle before prime/paint. I wonder if anyone has tried either of those tricks.

Also, just an observation, but it seems like (at least for the 2nd gen birds) the Van Nuys cars had a smoother, more finished off wheel well lip than the Norwood cars. Anyone else into these cars notice this?

[Bob]

I used the pencil eraser in wet primer to start with but wasn't really satisfied so I used a hole punch and punched out some sandpaper discs that I used with a Dremel tool. The factory welds were pretty sloppy looking on my car so my fake welds will be okay. I tried a drill bit but couldn't keep it from wandering all over the place. Good luck.

[m22mike]

The vice grip tool I made works well, and you can control the depth of the divet as well.
The punch thing would be alot of trouble IMO, unless you used heat and had a helper back up with a dolly.
I will post some pics later today of a Nova I did it on.
The lips gad been cut slightly http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif for tire clearance and some of the original spots were gone.
Also the vice grip tool upsets the metal on the inside and it fells alot like the originals.
I have noticed on differant cars that sometimes the welds are shallow and somewhat smooth, others are vwry deep and even tend to distort the metal. These were not robot welds as far as I know. So they will verry from car to car.

Later Mike http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[68bird400HO]

Thanks Mike. On your vice grip it looks like you layered up 5 pieces of something to make the dimple side of your die. What did you use for that?

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Looks like a piece of threaded bolt to me, http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[m22mike]

Yea, piece of a bolt !

Mike http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[m22mike]

68bird400HO
Here are a couple of shots of the wheel well lips I did with the tool pictured in the previous post.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b107/m22mike/Spotweldtool011.jpg



http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b107/m22mike/Spotweldtool007.jpg

Today I made another tool that I like even better, the fe male bushing i used has a tighter ID and the male part of the tool is the end cut off a car door hinge pin.
I also put a nut into the bushing to control the squish out on the back side. Check it out.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b107/m22mike/Spotweldtool019.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b107/m22mike/Spotweldtool017.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b107/m22mike/Spotweldtool022.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b107/m22mike/Spotweldtool020.jpg

Hope this helps, have fun.
Mike http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[Nova Jed]

Wow! That looks really good! I like it! Nice car too!

[Mr70]

Factory details are the Mother of invention. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[68bird400HO]

I have to agree, that does look really good. Especially the ones made with the newest tool. What did you use for the female side on the one you just made?

[m22mike]

It was just a bushing I found in my junk, just cut off what I needed. This bushing has a thicker wall and it does not distort the metal as much as the first on I made.

Mike

[bkhpah]

After spot welding new NOS quarter panels on one of the Camaros we had at legend judging with a 15K tower spot welder, one of the judges did not like a few of the accurate reproduced assembly line style welds. He claimed a few were not as "round" as he would like to see. He then told us about recreating the welds with a No.2 pencil. That way the fake welds would look more consistant. Any idea now many No.2s' you can buy for 15K?...What were we thinking?...BKH http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[farone]

yeh

[bkhpah]

Yeh is right...BKH http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[ORIGLS6]

[ QUOTE ]
one of the judges did not like a few of the accurate reproduced assembly line style welds................. He then told us about recreating the welds with a No.2 pencil.
That way the fake welds would look more consistant.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that weren't true, it would be hilarious!

Ron White is right; "You can't fix STUPID"!

[SS427]

[ QUOTE ]
.....one of the judges did not like a few of the accurate reproduced assembly line style welds. He claimed a few were not as "round" as he would like to see.

[/ QUOTE ]

Precisely why I hate having cars judged any more. That is just getting WAY too picky! Like ANY assembly line was ever consistant. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[CamarosRus]

Brian, As one of the ACA "Camaros at Carlisle" 1st Gen LEGENDS Judges yourself, what was the points conclusion on that spot welded restoration described above ??????? ............

And for those that choose to enter the world of having their cars judged for restoration accuracy how do you suggest they address this issue, if real spot welding is not used ????

respectfully submitted,

[RamAirDave]

As far as factory accuracy goes, do judges take points off for a paint job that is "too good", one that in no way replicates a factory finish?

[Schonyenko2]

My God, that's just nuts. I've ran those spot welders in production mode. They are set for single spot, or automatic.ie: you push the button, and let go. 1 spot. When you're running production, you hold the button down, and pull/push the jaws, and it runs on automatic. That's why you get some tweaking on the lip edges as it 's moving, grabs, and spots. There are some times high, and low heat buttons for heat/penetration. That will make a difference on the depth of the spot. You also need to dress/sharpen the copper points during the day as they flatten out with use. Or the heat setting could be off, then you call an electrician to come fix the setting, and you go set on your a$$ on down time. Damn unions. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[bkhpah]

I don't think in the end any points were deducted for the welds, but it did cause some high blood pressure from the owner. As for way to nice paint, that never has been an issue yet. But I have seen other paint and body assembly issues picked on that are 100% accurate. Even to the point of disregarding the survivor cars that are in attendance that are perfect reference material....BKH http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

[Bob]

Mike,
That is a cool tool! I wish I had this info when I was searching for a way to do my car.

[m22mike]

[ QUOTE ]
After spot welding new NOS quarter panels on one of the Camaros we had at legend judging with a 15K tower spot welder, one of the judges did not like a few of the accurate reproduced assembly line style welds. He claimed a few were not as "round" as he would like to see. He then told us about recreating the welds with a No.2 pencil. That way the fake welds would look more consistant. Any idea now many No.2s' you can buy for 15K?...What were we thinking?...BKH http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

This why I could care less about ever having a car judged !
To much ego looking at way over restored car's ( I think over restored car's are a good thing by the way)and making Judging decisions based on what "they" think.
These spot welds are the perfect example of that, There not going to be uniform !
There I said it ! Now....Let the fun begin ! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

Mike

Mike

[Keith Tedford]

In the old days, the welders were set at one heat. As the tips got beat down the diameter increased. Guys would go at the tips and rough down the diameter. NOt exactly round now. Now they have steppers that step up the current after every so many hits so they still get a good weld even though the diameter has increased. Saves on hydro too. I can see how the out of round welds occurred. I repaired weld guns in the Oshawa "A" body plant from 1976 to 1983.

[firez]

I restored a 68 camaro for a local fellow 2 years ago and after it was complete he gave me a binder with a pile of pics of the restoration along with a note written on the back cover saying the car turned out better than he thought was possible. One year later I was served with court papers saying he was suing me and yes his main concern was the spot welds were not perfectly spaced from one another.Nuts

[Chris_69_SS]

[ QUOTE ]
I used the pencil eraser in wet primer to start with but wasn't really satisfied so I used a hole punch and punched out some sandpaper discs that I used with a Dremel tool. The factory welds were pretty sloppy looking on my car so my fake welds will be okay. I tried a drill bit but couldn't keep it from wandering all over the place. Good luck.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is what my body guy did and it looks fantasatic. When I get a chance I'll post a pis or two.

[Keith Tedford]

Some of the sub assemblies were done in machines and the welds might have been more or less well spaced. The manual operators could be all over the place. Even spacing was only as good as the guy's judgement and his control of the weld gun. Some guns were pretty big and cumbersome and took a while for the operator to get used to them. I feel sorry for anyone dealing with the general public. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Schonyenko2]

I would bet that if you checked the blue print, and counted the welds on the piece, you may come up short on the welds on the piece. When you ran piecework, sometimes short cuts left off a few here and there. Keith, we used to file spot points, but later on got air dressers. They looked kinda like air ratchets except there were circular cutters where the ratchet end would be. They worked fine unless you cut to deep and the point got to thin. Then it would blow out, and shoot water all over the place.

[RamAirDave]

[ QUOTE ]
As for way to nice paint, that never has been an issue yet. But I have seen other paint and body assembly issues picked on that are 100% accurate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting. So when painstakingly restoring a car to factory accuracy, the exterior paint gets a "free pass" as far as judging goes?

Don't get me wrong, no car leaves our shop with an accurate factory-quality appearing paint job. It's just a question Ive asked several times in the past without an answer.

[Nova Jed]

How crazy do you think the judges would be if they saw one door underneath wasn't painted and the other side was? Or paint runs in the door jambs or underside of trunk lid? That's exactly how my Nova was before I painted it. I wish I would have taken pictures because it was a survivor. Like I said it "was" a survivor. I wish now that I would have never painted it. My hat is off to those of you who restore all the little flaws. That has to take a lot of time to duplicate! That has to be tough with a BC/CC paint job.

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Overspray is ok, but runs and flaws in the body are not ok. That's the deal, like it or not.

Some of us don't care, we restore like the factory built them, bad gaps, poor fit, orange peel, etc... I dup'd the runs inside the trunk sides for the speckle paint - I had 4-5 judges inside the trunk salivating over points deduction. Lucky for me, Lanny popped the trunk on his original owner, unrestored '70 Nova.... conversation over!

[ORIGLS6]

[ QUOTE ]
Some of us don't care, we restore like the factory built them, bad gaps, poor fit, orange peel, etc... I dup'd the runs inside the trunk sides for the speckle paint - I had 4-5 judges inside the trunk salivating over points deduction. Lucky for me, Lanny popped the trunk on his original owner, unrestored '70 Nova.... conversation over!

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

Take a look at my lower quarters and rockers sometime. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Mr70]

We can't,they're covered in rubber.http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[Keith Tedford]

By the time I got to the truck plant, they had the weld gun tip dressers that Shonyenko describes. They also got tip dressers mounted on pedestals in the stations with the robots. The robots could take the gun to the dresser and have the tips dressed when required. The manual operators were famous for doing one or two less welds that they were supposed to. Got the job done quicker. The welders for putting the inner and outer wheel house halves together had to rollers that the current was passed through at intervals as they rolled around the arc. Guys would open up the flow control valves to speed up the operation. The weld checkers were always after us to slow the rollers down to get the required number of spot welds. Judges still have a lot to learn. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Mr70]

Keith
Do you have any personal photos you can post of your plant during those years showing the assembly process?

[Keith Tedford]

GM still doesn't want cameras in the plant. Besides, by 1976 there wasn't much other than the Laguna to look at. From '65-'76, I worked in the old north plant in the big die room where we built new dies and did die repair on the dies in production. One dirty tedious job and I missed out on seeing all the neat cars being built.

[firstgenaddict]

The Black 69 RS/Z survivor also has grind marks on the a pillars where the roof was leaded in and runs in the door jambs as well as the lower rear valence...
My 68 GTO has runs in the door and trunk jambs... which I will dupplicate when I paint it...

[Nova Jed]

How do you reproduce that? Do you use a spray bottle?