1969 RS/Z Black 45k miles Original Paint

[firstgenaddict]

1969 Camaro RS/Z
One of 6 unrestored Camaros to be Vintage Certified (Extensive detailed examination for part numbers and correctness by multiple judges for multiple hours) at the GM Nationals Carlisle June 2007. Judges stated it would be a sin to restore the car.

http://www.crossroadspaper.com/074.jpg
X33 (X3 on rear bulkhead)
04C build
Body Number 308966
VIN 633599
10 10 Original Black Paint 90-95% (paint shows as you would expect lacquer checks etc.) Front of pass fender has been touched up and the top of the pass quarter has been touched up.
711 Black Std Interior
45,000 miles
Original interior with factory white stitched seats
Original Carpet
Original dated Seat belts.
Very nice factory Rosewood wheel (the original Std RS wheel goes with car)
All original Dated Glass
U17-Factory Instrumentation
Console
VE3-Endura bumper
ZL2-Cowl Hood
D80-Spoilers
J50-PowerBrakes
M21-Muncie Close Ratio Trans (has a M20 from a later Vin 69 Camaro in it)
BV coded 4.10 Positraction Rear axle Cast April 15 69 (Axle stamp BV 0417 G2)

Engine Recently rebuilt
DZ 302 (V0409DZ) no VIN stamp on pad or oil filter boss
618 Casting
Cast April 7th 1969
Build date April 9th
Bored .020 & honed with torque plates
ARP Main Studs

1178 crank shaft
Full floating "Pink" rods with ARP rod bolts
.020 over pistons with Total seal gapless moly rings

186 heads dated March 20 1969
New Stainless Valves swirl polished undercut stems
Double springs with dampers
Screw-in studs with guide plates
Aluminum needle bearing roller rockers

480 distributor (December 68 Date)
4053 DZ carb dated 934 (4th week of March 1969)
Original US stamped 309 Master Cylinder
Original Rear Wheel cylinders and Original Front brake calipers go with the car

New Centerforce clutch, pressure plate, and Throwout bearing.

Car was a day 2 hot rod/drag racer and still retains the following
Finned Differential cover
Lakewood Adjustable Traction Bars
Lakewood scattershield
Has Matte Black Jet Hot Coated Hooker Super comp headers(Look very period correct)
Reproduction Chambered Exhaust system.

Cosmetically the Car is basically unrestored- it has been cleaned thoroughly and the paint polished.

From the time the car was purchased to now all work has been thoroughly documented on this site
Link to Original Thread
web page (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/204077/an/0/page/1#204077)
Link to Camaros.net
Discussion (http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=81626)
Photos-
Photos (http://www.crossroadspaper.com/1969_Z28_PhotoGallery.htm)

Price $100,000 or offers
email James Groome [email protected]
or call 864-444-7041

[mockingbird812]

OUCH! That is such a SAAAAWWWEEEEEEEEEEEEET! looking machine. Very menacing with that black paint and those righteous torque thrusts. Good luck! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif








P.S. if you don't sell it...... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/Can-I-Have-It.gif

[DarrenX33]

This is one Z28 that I would really like to own. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[MosportGreen66]

[ QUOTE ]
This is one Z28 that I would really like to own. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen! Good luck with the sale.

[rsatz28]

Great looking car.

If it does not have the original engine, I'm somwhat suprised/confused at the $100K asking price.

Most opinions were in the $30-$50 range back in May 07 when this car was 1st purchased. Yes the cars been cleaned up. Yes the engine had been gone through. What supports this type of asking price w/out the original engine? How does it go from $35K-$50K to $100K in 6 months?

[njsteve]

1) Look at the build dates of the car, the VIN, the firewall tag, and the engine block and they all are in the normal casting/assembly time span for a 3rd week April 1969 car. If you cant have the original block, this is as close as you are ever going to get.

2) It's a survivor in factory black with the original paint and all it's original components including the silver grill.

3) It's in amazing shape and I'd love to own the darn thing if I win the lottery or the Superbowl pool. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[rsatz28]

I agree with the statements, but I thought only documented cars with a iron clad owner trail would command this type of price.

[shor]

<font color="red">{ What supports this type of asking price } </font>

he can ask whatever price he likes.
he, or she, could ask for 250k.
the value or "market" will be wherever buyer and seller eventually meet if a sale takes place. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[rsatz28]

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="red">{ What supports this type of asking price } </font>

he can ask whatever price he likes.
he, or she, could ask for 250k.
the value or "market" will be wherever buyer and seller eventually meet if a sale takes place. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I fully understand this concept 100%. I'm just trying to figure out how the car "may have" doubled in value in 6 months.

[DarrenX33]

Rob, I think you can only say "doubled" if it indeed sells for that much. An asking price can be anything and shouldn't be used as a benchmark. The selling point here is the low mileage, original paint and just overall originality. Heck, you can't beat the options on this car, black with RS... Even though the motor is long gone it's a very nice replacement. Fully restored cars are a dime a dozen. It's the survivor type cars that are always in demand.

Heck, if anyone wants my restored original drivetrain Z for $100k I'm open to discuss...

Again, if I had the $ it would be on its way to my house already. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[rsatz28]

You are all correct. I'm guess I'm just suprised at the asking price that's all.

I agree that is a great looking car. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[Steve Shauger]

This is a very nice car. If anyone is interested in the detailed certification results I am sure the owner will share them.
The opening comment "One of 6 unrestored Camaros to be Vintage Certified" is not accurate, we have certified close to fifty cars at various levels over an eight year period.

To me black is the ultimate color and makes any car look stunning. I wish I still owned mine.

[firstgenaddict]

Not to be splitting hairs but...
It says one of 6 to be Certified at the GM Nationals in June 2007 never meant to imply one of 6 ever to be certified...
Also as if it even matters the car was originally pulled out in May 2006 not 2007 so it has been 18 months not 6 months.

James

[rsatz28]

WOW - I took a a look at the dates.....WOW where did the past 18 months go?????

[Steve Shauger]

[ QUOTE ]
Not to be splitting hairs but...
It says one of 6 to be Certified at the GM Nationals in June 2007 never meant to imply one of 6 ever to be certified...
Also as if it even matters the car was originally pulled out in May 2006 not 2007 so it has been 18 months not 6 months.

James

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for clearing that up, not sure why I did not see your June of 2007 reference. I am sure William will miss the car.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[69LM1]

Wow. I am confused as to why this car w/o a numbers matching engine and tranny is considered a survivor, and the other Z was not considered a survivor that just had some paint work done?

Now, being an original black car with original paint is a definate price jump, but I would think missing two of the three major drivetrain components would preclude a "survivor" status in my opinion.......

Again, this is why I think (just my opinion) that we should focus MORE on original drivetrain than anything else. All of these 69 Camaros were exactly the same. A six banger or a COPO. Same body. Drivetrain / Suspension is what made then special.

You can only have the original drivetrain once, and IMO, "close" does not matter a whole lot at 100,000.00

Now, don't get me wrong, it is a sweet car, and black is rare to boot, but I question the survivor stats without the #'s engine and transmission.

Just my opinion,

Rich

[deuce-less]

a wise man once said " the rising tide lifts all ships", in this case what he wants for the car is his deal and if his final selling price is near to what he was asking, great for him, better solid prices for solid cars, than declining market values. jmo

i do agree that original cars, with original drive trains are the best of all worlds in most cases. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Salvatore]

I just wish he would sell me the traction bars!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[firstgenaddict]

Sam just for you... traction bars 100k &amp; I will throw the car in to sweeten the deal...

[agtw31]

[ QUOTE ]


How does it go from $35K-$50K to $100K in 6 months?


[/ QUOTE ]

ask Volo Auto sales,they have that system down pat. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[1969z280]

rsatz28:

I think you were right in saying most opinions. That wasn't the asking price. I offered them a Restored 67 L78 RS SS Deep Water Blue Camaro (because they said the owner was looking for one) and $25K and never got a call back. So, I guess they have finally settled on a price. Great car! I'd love to own it. Ed http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

[Charley Lillard]

Rich....I seem to remember you also thinking a ZL1 was pretty much worthless without it's orig engine.

[69LM1]

[ QUOTE ]
Rich....I seem to remember you also thinking a ZL1 was pretty much worthless without it's orig engine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, that might be a stretch. I'd sell it and buy something else. The point is that the special engine's are what made the cars special. So, I guess yea, what's a ZL1 without the engine? Same as a 6 banger.

I have a original COPO (MP) motor going into a X11 car, with a BE rear.

What's more real, the COPO VIN body with a clone motor, or the clone body with a real COPO drivetrain?

Which was my point in this post. Yes, this is a nice car, and you rarely see black 69's much less Z's. But, it still has a clone motor/tranny in it. Whereas that blue Z recently had the full numbers matching driveline and many original parts, albet unrestored, and the guy was given grief over the term survivor.

I'll take the COPO drivetrain car (which, I DID). But, hey, I'm weird like that. I like LM1's and 70 Z COPO's as well! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

You guys keep those "clean" cars, keeps the ones I like cheap! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

Friends,

Rich

[firstgenaddict]

The DZ is real. It is a non VIN stamped block that happens to be the correct dates for the car. If you are calling it a clone engine then your MP engine is a Clone as well... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif which by the way I do not consider your MP a clone engine... but the car is definatly a clone with a real drive train...

[69LM1]

OK, Point taken if it's a real DZ engine. Maybe clone was too harsh. I retract that statement.

BUT, you gotta admit, the blue Z with the original engine can always be made better. This car can never be original again (unless the original engine/tranny were found). AGAIN, not saying that this car sucks, in fact it is very nice. And black? how often can you buy an original tuxedo black 69 camaro?

Just sayin'...... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

Of course, who am I? Not much. I claim to be no expert, just thinking out loud here and I probably should but out, which I think I will do now........ http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Rich

[DarrenX33]

[ QUOTE ]
So, I guess yea, what's a ZL1 without the engine? Same as a 6 banger.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an amazing statement. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

[Charley Lillard]

Exactly.....

[69LM1]

Hey, I'm an amazing guy! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[enio45]

If anyone has a real ZL1 vin car without the engine - call me now please!!

[COPO_Anders]

How did an engine with a DZ-stamp find it´s way out to the public without a partial VIN on it ? Wouldn´t a replacement engine be CE-stamped ?

Just wondering.

[Hylton]

[ QUOTE ]
How did an engine with a DZ-stamp find it´s way out to the public without a partial VIN on it ? Wouldn´t a replacement engine be CE-stamped ?

Just wondering.

[/ QUOTE ]


There have been quite a few cars documented without VIN numbers stamped into the blocks and/or transmissions. I guess the worker either forgot or could not be bothered.

[69LM1]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How did an engine with a DZ-stamp find it´s way out to the public without a partial VIN on it ? Wouldn´t a replacement engine be CE-stamped ?

Just wondering.

[/ QUOTE ]


There have been quite a few cars documented without VIN numbers stamped into the blocks and/or transmissions. I guess the worker either forgot or could not be bothered.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, so what's the scoop. Prior post said that this was not the original "DZ", but the ad above is confusing, in that it specifically states the tranny as not original "born with" but later camaro VIN. Does not mention the engine either way.

"Engine Recently rebuilt
DZ 302 (V0409DZ) no VIN stamp on pad or oil filter boss
618 Casting
Cast April 7th 1969
Build date April 9th
Bored .020 &amp; honed with torque plates
ARP Main Studs"

"M21-Muncie Close Ratio Trans (has a M20 from a later Vin 69 Camaro in it)"

From this post http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/204077/an/0/page/1#204077

"44,900 miles,
Original Engine missing ,
X33 04C car."

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Steve Shauger]

I believe the third post from the original thread discloses the fact that the orig engine is missing. If I remember correctly they also were up front about finding a correctly dated original DZ. In fact pics of the stamping was posted prior to the purchase of the engine to confirm its originality. Think of this car having its brothers engine in it. Can't get much closer than that.

Certainly the for sale ad could have been clearer, but for the record James and William were up front with anyone who talked with them at the camaro nationals.

[10/10_RS/Z28]

The car is BAD and very very rare from what I have been told by many camaro experts, and from what I have seen in the "for sale" market over the past couple of years. Both Jerry MacNeish and the Vintage Camaro fellows have seen the car and really liked what they saw (for what that's worth). I've seen blues, reds, yellows, gold, white, orange, and lots of green in miscellaneous stages of restoration, however I have not seen a legit black Z. I could be way off, but I have not seen a comparible car for sale. I clearly cannot replace this car for what appears to be any price. The car may not eclipse the 100k mark (unless @ BJ LOL) however I have turned down some big money and big trades for the car and there has always been great intrest in a REAL black RS/Z28 with these factory options and original paint, and interior. I will negotiate on the price, however no trades will be entertained at this time.

[427king]

Is it your car??? Or James'?

[10/10_RS/Z28]

Mine, however James did the work on it and is fielding the questions about it because of his knowledge of camaros &amp; parts etc.

[427king]

Thanks and good luck with the sale.

[70LS6454]

This is the best looking Z I've seen. Can't beat the color combo in my opinion.I wouldn't change a thing http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[af1fe]

My mama always told me if I didn't have anything good to say, it best to nothing at all. I will say this though anyone considering this car it would do them well to do an in person inspection.

[Rick Cell]

Didn't mama tell you if you do decide to open your mouth tell it all the way it is.

[RamAirDave]

Ton of pics of the car here (10pg. thread):

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=81626

[10/10_RS/Z28]

Please contact James for any additional photos and/or info on the car. We have photos from the second it was delivered off of the rollback to the Camaro Nationals with the other handfull of cars that were there to now. The car has only been to two cruise ins in 18 months locally and has been driven sparingly.

[southernfriedcj]

What ever happened to the other guy that knew the whereabouts of the original engine?

[10/10_RS/Z28]

The guy was familiar with the car, but was a bit strange. Not sure of his info. Dead end!

[10/10_RS/Z28]

Yes, I have the original wheels as well, thanks for your intrest.

[firstgenaddict]

Price Reduced $90,000 Firm.

[firstgenaddict]

Wow... how random... my dad just sold a truck to a man whose father worked on and raced against this car... He is going to have his dad and uncle call me with more info.
Said there are pics around of it from the racing days...
Had some strories about racing and the guys associated with the car...

He has a one owner Green 69 Z and his brother has a Maroon 67 Z that he bought from the original owner 20 years ago.