Original miles "really" matter on a restored car?

[Survivor 69/Z28]

Howdy!!

Watching the B.J. over the weekend I noticed more and more that folks are trying to get a premium price on lower mile cars "that have been restored." Or at least they have the miles in big bold #'s printed on the windshield.
I could be clueless. But if a car has been completely restored then does it really make a big difference of how many miles it has??? Sure its a bonus. But everything is now new or like new anyway....
So why would a person pay a lot more for a car like this?
To me, if you are going to focus on miles then it should be unrestored. Then it of course makes a difference IMO.
This is really something that I am not understanding in our hobby and maybe someone can clarify.

Thanks,


http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[427.060]

I agree 100%. A lot of the low mile cars were raced when new so the few miles that were put on the cars were rough on the cars.
James

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

Keep in mind that many guys will 'roll' the speedo after a full frame off - a similar thing that I don't understand. Like you said, everything is new/redone, but it still doesn't give you a license to start the speedo over again - just like it doesn't make sense to make claims about ultra low miles http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

BTW, it's a very, very small world out there! After completing my resto, I got my car appraised for the insurance process. I used Shaw appraisers for the task, never knowing that Cliff Ernst also uses him. So, when he came to look at my car he specifically wanted to see the speedo - and made a note that it was 'still' at 99k miles. Perplexed, I asked him why he was so concerned about the mileage on a fully restored car. His reply was that he had known of my car for the full time that Cliff had owned it, and knew the mileage should be 99k, and although it would be exceptionally easy to roll it over less a thou, he was pleased to see that it was not rolled over. He said it just speaks towards the approach taken on the resto, not hiding anything, keeping it 'real'. I thanked him for the compliment! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[rsatz28]

I thought it was illegal to turn back odometers, isn't it? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[Mr70]

I actually respect a fully restored vehicle more if it's original mileage is still showing.To me it's like the past meeting the present.This way you know two things,how many miles it accumulated up to the restoration,and how many it's accumulating after.
I don't think one can or should ask for more money because of that though.
If you roll it back to 0,then your likely to never know or forget at what mileage it was restored at,once if it leaves the hands of the restorer/owner.
As Marlins guy described,"It just speaks towards the approach taken on the resto".

[Canucklehead]

What about buying from an original owner or a low owner count?. Or even a celebrity owner or known "good guy" collector. To me i would think it should'nt make a difference, the car should be the star not who or how many owned it. Case in point, Carroll Shelby's personal car, even when it was getting alot more money then it deserved Steve Davis seemed pissed it was going so cheap!!

[rsatz28]

[ QUOTE ]
Case in point, Carroll Shelby's personal car, even when it was getting alot more money then it deserved Steve Davis seemed pissed it was going so cheap!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Then may be they should go back to a reserve auction? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

How about the the "shame" that was Barret was tossing out about on the "$1.6M" Duesenburg that went for $1M.

[firstgenaddict]

He tossed out lots of shame about "deals" on cars being auctioned off... There were what appeared to be some good buys... point is a no reserve auction lets the buyers set the price... good or bad...

[Canucklehead]

Im sure that Craig Jackson made some promises to some sellers that he did'nt live up to. He had to say something to these sellers to convince them that his auction was the place to sell their rides.

[chads454Ls6]

When i see the claim of low miles,i like to look at things like the interior,is it original,seats,door panels,headliner,door handles,glass. If the car truly has "low miles" then these things should be in nice shape provided the car was not beat to death.

[Survivor 69/Z28]

But what I do not understand is why fully restored cars with lower miles really matters. A car with 20k miles should show some age but very little ware. My point is, most of these low mile cars are fully restored. So with that said, do the miles then really matter with everything being new or like new.
Example:
There was a red 69 Z sold at the BJ. It claimed to have 26k original miles. BUT.... it had been fully restored. So if everything has been redone on the car why would a person pay more for a car with 26k miles? If a car has 200k vs. 25k miles, if everything has been gone through it makes not one bit of difference IMO.
There were several cars like this, where they were ranting and raving about the low miles. But they were restored.....

[LS6 RAT]

I also think that if a car is COMPLETELY restored, mileage doesn't matter one iota. I don't necessarily agree that having the odometer reset to zero miles is a bad thing. A completely restored vehicle should be the same condition as bought brand new and those odometers usually have close to zero miles on the gauge.

[LS6 RAT]

One item that is often stated by consigners of cars at auctions is that they are restored to factory stock, and in the same breadth state that the engine has been rebuilt. When queried on this aspect, the potential buyer finds out that the engine has been modified from factory specs.
I wish the owners would just not use the term factory stock...it's definitely not the truth.

[LS6 RAT]

I also get very leery over low mileage cars that have been "completely restored". I then imagine what kind of condition was this car in, in the first place to need a complete restoration????

I've got two Corvettes that are still original paint, original interiors, original drivetrains. Both are missing some original mechanical components, such as one car has a replacement fan clutch, both cars have replacement starters, both cars have replacement exhaust piping/mufflers, both cars have a replacement,restored original A.I.R. emissions system.
One car has 60,013 miles, the other has 39,297 miles and neither car "need to be restored" to be presentable appearing automobiles. There is no cylinder boring, or decking, no heads surfaced or ported, no intakes milled, or ported no crankshafts turned under or oversize rod or main bearings, no aftermarket camshafts & lifters..just original specifications as the factory assembled.
My opinion is that the musclecars that are truly factory original are the utmost desireable ones and certainly the most valuable from a monetary standpoint.

[Survivor 69/Z28]

LS6 RAT,

I am with you a 100% on that. I am much more interested in the true originals rather than the ones that have been restored. I LOVE the pretty new looking restored cars though. BUT, I am always wondering what was "really" done to the car when restored. So many guys will spend mega bucks on cars without even knowing who rebuilt the engine and what parts were used.

[Keith Tedford]

Back in the day virtually everyone disconnected their speedometers to extende the 5-50 warranty. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif Cars with original mileage showing are very, very rare and how do you prove it without a ton of receipts over the years showing the mileage progression. I know with our car the speedometer cable gear box that mounts into the transmission seized up several times and went quite a while before being repaired. I was beyond warranty so it didn't matter any way. I just drove by the tach. It looked to me this year that big scoops, stripes, and pro touring were what sold best. COPO cars are too much the plain Jane sleeper for this crowd.

[LS6 RAT]

Survivor 69/Z28,

Yeah, I with you there as well. Nice new shiny paint does make me a bit envious though.

[LS6 RAT]

Keith,

So, absolutely true! That's why I love the '71 LS6 Corvettes. They are similar to the '69 Camaro ZL-1's. A wolf in sheeps clothing. Very plain appearing on the exterior, but under all that clothing is a beast at heart!

But I also love all the graphics and loud color paint schemes. My heart jumps at seeing a Lemon twist AAR Cuda with that mat black paint and strobe stripes. I love that P51 Mustang fighter belly scoop inspired hood on the T/A Challengers, the clothes hanger wings of the Daytona and Superbird. I love the Grabber colors of the Mustangs, with rear window slats, shaker hoods, the '71 gull wing design spoiler of the 'cuda's. The great looking naca duct hoods of the '69, '70 Shelbys and their side scooped breathern of '67 & '68.
But what I'm most proud of are the rare HD desireable mechanical pieces that GM, Ford & Chrysler put into these great automobiles! M22 heavy duty transmissions, HD dual plate clutches, magnetic pulse transistorized ignition systems, aluminum heads, etc, etc,.
I'm am so fortunate to have been around during the greatest car decade ever!

[Mr. Chevy]

I think this is a lot of http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif also. How many guys disconnected the speedo cables to go racing or for whatever other purpose?? Or as stated above, how many people rolled back the odometers because it is so easy to do?? Unless you really know the car and have a good, solid documentation trail who in the hell really knows how many miles some of these cars actually have... Thats my .02

Rich

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

I think that a restored car with low mileage is good to know - bec/ there is a higher probability that most of the parts are indeed original to that car. A good example would be Sandlins '68 Dana Camaro, low miles but a full resto. So, you know that the car will have the majority of it's born with, original panels, interior, undercarriage, etc...

So, low miles can support a higher price on a restored car from that perspective.

[Survivor 69/Z28]

But what about a car that has 200k miles with documentation that supports everything being original? That same car went through a nut and bolt restoration. There is no difference in that car vs. a low mile car in the same situation.

Bottom line, a car with low miles that has been ground up resotored makes me question that car. First off, why is that person making a huge deal over the miles when its been completely gone through? I see these cars that have 25-50k miles that have been totally gone through. Well, if its such a special car then why was it restored with such low miles???
I for example own a unrestored 69 Z. It now has 78k miles. I drive this thing. I would be a fool to restore it as its in extremely nice condition. Would I pay more for a 69 Z with lower miles that has been restored vs. a car with more miles that in in great shape that is unrestored? No way!

Sorry for the rant.
But while keeping up with the market. I am noticing more and more that these guys list these old cars saying " LOW MILES" and then all original. But then you dig a little deeper and find out that the so called low mile original car has been completely restored. This does not make a lot of sense to me. I know there are exceptions. But over all I think my point is very valid.

[69L78]

I have an original 29k mile JL8 that I am going to get painted and or restored and my interior is in mint condition and nothing will need to be done to the interior at all so to me as Chad stated it should reflect that. The bottom end of the engine has never been apart and has absolutely no leaks at all. The original intake and carb was repalced with a X-RAM setup in 1981 and I am not going to freshen up the bottom end.

[mockingbird812]

Jeff - your not kiddin' that interior is mint! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[m22mike]

I have had the good fortune to restore three really neat low mileage cars that were not really stored very well or had alot of rattle can blackout and chassis black applied to the undercarrage and put all of them in need of the rotiserie treetment.
One was a 11K 69 Camaro L78,a 17K mile 69 COPO Camaro, and the other was a 8K mile 69 Nova L78. None of which were still good enough to be left as survivors.
The Nove was painted whited underneath http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif YUK !
One thing your overlooking about low mileage restored cars, at least with the three I mentioned above, is that I found all to have very little used and like new internal parts.
Like the steering box's and rear ends and Muncies, after clean up some of the stuff looked as good as NOS parts.
I remember these three 12 bolts all got there original bearings put back in.
All three had there original rear leaf springs restored and re used.
All three had there outer tie rods put back in. And the Nova went back together with the original front coils.
Same with the interior's, only the Nova got a new headliner, the L78 Camaro still has it's born with carpet.
Anyway the list goes on.
So I think it is fair to say the low milaged restored car might still be a better car in the long run.
Forgot to mention all original body panels .

Thanks Mike http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

[Johnny Horsepower]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that a restored car with low mileage is good to know - bec/ there is a higher probability that most of the parts are indeed original to that car. A good example would be Sandlins '68 Dana Camaro, low miles but a full resto. So, you know that the car will have the majority of it's born with, original panels, interior, undercarriage, etc...

So, low miles can support a higher price on a restored car from that perspective.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the low mileage is truly proveable/documented I find it to be important to me. The above reasons are very true.
My 70 RA III Judge was bought from the original owners with only 38k miles. I could of left it a survivor but I chose not to. The interior is orignal and still in it. everything else has been redone, but its nice to know it was a low original mileage car from the start and retains most of its original major parts due to its low mileage.
I think low documented low miles on a restored car is important. And for a few cars if you have the before/after history and photos to prove it, I think it is major!

befores http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa261/Zgusto/70JUDGEbefore.jpg
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa261/Zgusto/70JUDGEenginebefore.jpg

interior http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa261/Zgusto/70JUDGEraIII75.jpg

done
http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa261/Zgusto/70JUDGEraIII63.jpg http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa261/Zgusto/70JUDGEraIII35.jpg

[RamAirDave]

I don't think it matters so much on a finished, restored car so much as it helps on a car that is going to be restored. Regardless of the mileage, the usage/storage of the car over ~40 years is more important. A 150K mile car thats been well-kept/maintained might be a better starting point as far as the body, while one with 5K miles thats been sitting in the woods since the early 70s might retain more original parts.

With lower mileage, it's more likely that many of the original mechanical parts are still intact. And if its been stored at least reasonably well, the original sheetmetal will still be in pretty good shape.

[kwhizz]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think it matters so much on a finished, restored car so much as it helps on a car that is going to be restored. Regardless of the mileage, the usage/storage of the car over ~40 years is more important. A 150K mile car thats been well-kept/maintained might be a better starting point as far as the body, while one with 5K miles thats been sitting in the woods since the early 70s might retain more original parts.

With lower mileage, it's more likely that many of the original mechanical parts are still intact. And if its been stored at least reasonably well, the original sheetmetal will still be in pretty good shape.

[/ QUOTE ]



What he said!!

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think it matters so much on a finished, restored car so much as it helps on a car that is going to be restored. Regardless of the mileage, the usage/storage of the car over ~40 years is more important. A 150K mile car thats been well-kept/maintained might be a better starting point as far as the body, while one with 5K miles thats been sitting in the woods since the early 70s might retain more original parts.

With lower mileage, it's more likely that many of the original mechanical parts are still intact. And if its been stored at least reasonably well, the original sheetmetal will still be in pretty good shape.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto that!!

[Steve Shauger]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think it matters so much on a finished, restored car so much as it helps on a car that is going to be restored. Regardless of the mileage, the usage/storage of the car over ~40 years is more important. A 150K mile car thats been well-kept/maintained might be a better starting point as far as the body, while one with 5K miles thats been sitting in the woods since the early 70s might retain more original parts.

With lower mileage, it's more likely that many of the original mechanical parts are still intact. And if its been stored at least reasonably well, the original sheetmetal will still be in pretty good shape.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto that!!

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree unless you can utilize the original parts from the car interior, sheetmetal, trim, electrical & drivetrain components not much is gained.

The quality of the restoration is directly related to the quality of the components used, reconditioned original/nos vs reproduction.