Russo and Steele auction [Archive] - The Supercar Registry

Charley Lillard

02-19-2008, 09:11 PM

I watched that interview and while it is too bad the car didn't sell for what he thought his reserve was he should have read the contract. The reserve is not fine print. It is one of the main points of the contract and to try and raise it when the car is on the block is absurd. What if every seller wanted to raise their reserve while their car was on the block ? Yes the dealer that bought it could have handeled it better but he is supposed to give the car back because the seller didn't pay attention to the probably LARGE print in the contract ? He finally figures this out when the car is actually on the block ? The inteview with Gaines and the other guy mentions how they think the sellers should be able to raise their reserve during the auction since they can lower it. The auction houses decide on what cars they accept for their auction based on if they think the reserve prices are realistic. That is decided months in advance. If I get them to take my crappy car because they know it will sell at my 5K reserve then I change it to 50K on auction day, I just screwed the auction house and everyone else.

CamarosRus

02-19-2008, 09:45 PM

I fully expect this post to dissappear.............

Regarding both B/J and R/S I am interested in learning why so many people condone fabricated clones, with misc alledged "documentation" being passed off as original and survivors.

Why do most people turn a blind eye on cars that are obvious repaints, incorrect "original" parts and have Photoshop documentation........

I can understand the auctioneers greed, the sellers greed....but to hear the Speed Channel announcers tout the low milage, the documentation, and ALL the originality, is just so upsetting to me, knowing otherwise.
Why isnt there litagation and public outcry to hold down some, if not all of these sellers..........

sYc

02-19-2008, 10:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
......I dont want to go in the terms of our deal but IM COMPLETELY SATISFIED and will 100% comtinue to do business with Russo and Steele..........

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool..glad to see things worked out. The club can always use an extra $2100.00. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

x Baldwin Motion

02-19-2008, 10:13 PM

I am very sorry to hear anyone takes a hit like that. Sure, you are selling the car to feed hungry kids. I believe that people can fall on hard times and have to sell their prized possesion. That sucks.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gifI do not believe I can sign a contract that says $100,000.00
when I MUST HAVE $140,000.00. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I can't hang around for five days and not check my contract. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

I can't go to the block without my contract !! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

As far as the buyer (dealer) being a man of his word, ..... please ! He sells used cars!! He is one of the many who take advantage of persons in this hobby (though he bought the car legally and fairly).
This is a sad fact of life. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

This situation does not appear to be the auction house excercising their right to an advantage in a gray area.

x Baldwin Motion

02-19-2008, 10:25 PM

the post above is in reference to the video link on first page.( edit time elapsed, sorry)

[ QUOTE ]
....but to hear the Speed Channel announcers tout the low milage, the documentation, and ALL the originality, is just so upsetting to me, knowing otherwise........... ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Those SPEED guys are only reading from que cards and information sheets that are provided by the auction house based on the sellers description. Mike Joy is NOT part of the conspiracy to sell you a 427 with a six banger vin. Any of his other color commentary is surely based on his vast knowledge of that make and model car, not the particular specimen on the block!!

Xplantdad

02-19-2008, 10:39 PM

Andy...see, I told you so! Awesome! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Johnny Horsepower

02-19-2008, 11:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I watched that interview and while it is too bad the car didn't sell for what he thought his reserve was he should have read the contract. The reserve is not fine print. It is one of the main points of the contract and to try and raise it when the car is on the block is absurd. What if every seller wanted to raise their reserve while their car was on the block ? Yes the dealer that bought it could have handeled it better but he is supposed to give the car back because the seller didn't pay attention to the probably LARGE print in the contract ? He finally figures this out when the car is actually on the block ? The inteview with Gaines and the other guy mentions how they think the sellers should be able to raise their reserve during the auction since they can lower it. The auction houses decide on what cars they accept for their auction based on if they think the reserve prices are realistic. That is decided months in advance. If I get them to take my crappy car because they know it will sell at my 5K reserve then I change it to 50K on auction day, I just screwed the auction house and everyone else.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif agreed

camarojoe

02-20-2008, 12:59 AM

I agree with Charley on this one too.. he signed the contract stating it was a 100K reserve. If he was too dumb to proof read it before signing it, that's his own fault...The other part I don't get is that he says the owner had the car for 28 years, and that they did all the repair work on the car for free, yet the owner "had more than 100k in it and would be taking a loss"...how's that?

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

02-20-2008, 01:09 AM

I guess he paid more than $100k for it 28 years ago! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

What a Moron. (Him, not you! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif )

Charley Lillard

02-20-2008, 01:43 AM

Hard to overlook the big bold reserve box. http://www.yenko.net/attachments/320412-P1010001_edited-1.jpg

Charley Lillard

02-20-2008, 01:45 AM

.. http://www.yenko.net/attachments/320416-P1010002.JPG

Charley Lillard

02-20-2008, 01:46 AM

... http://www.yenko.net/attachments/320417-P1010003.JPG

Charley Lillard

02-20-2008, 01:47 AM

.... http://www.yenko.net/attachments/320418-P1010004.JPG

Charley Lillard

02-20-2008, 01:48 AM

...... http://www.yenko.net/attachments/320419-P1010005.JPG

x Baldwin Motion

02-20-2008, 01:59 AM

[ QUOTE ]
...... http://www.yenko.net/attachments/320419-P1010005.JPG

[/ QUOTE ]

no sympathy if you signed that and say you didn't see the reserve http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

69LM1

02-20-2008, 02:05 AM

Wait,
Which car are we disucssing? If you sign a paper with a 100k reserve, then I agree, you can't raise it later. You can opt to lower it, but not raise it, imo.

What's up with the BOSS story of RS shill bidding the car and winning the auction? Am I misunderstanding that?

Stefano

02-20-2008, 03:37 AM

Russo and Steele, as well as most of the Auctions which have a reserve retain the contractual ability to advance a bid up to, but not in excess of the Reserve.

They also have an arbitration clause to help settle disagreements and misunderstandings, if needed.

69LM1

02-20-2008, 03:45 AM

Wow! Did not know that. So, did they or did they not bid the car (BOSS) higher than the reserve, based on the lowered reserve? If so, wonder what the contract says about that. Seems like these auctions are way too complicated........

427king

02-20-2008, 03:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Russo and Steele, as well as most of the Auctions which have a reserve retain the contractual ability to advance a bid up to, but not in excess of the Reserve.

[/ QUOTE ] "contractual ability to advance a bid" Is that the new term for shill bidding???

rubbinisracing

02-20-2008, 03:50 AM

I hate to put you in the middle here Charley....

The posting of the consignment form for the Shelby GT500 does provide a visual aid for us all as to what the consignors agreed to and signed. I agree with Charley and others that all though it's sad that a mistake was made the seller had every opportunity to correct it.

In regards to the Boss 429...I can see from the consignment form that the seller had a reserve of 300K and agreed to lower that reserve while the car was on the block. My guess is the consignment agreement allows the auction house to advance the bid up to the reserve amount and the auctioneer didn't remember or recognize the winning bidder as a fellow employee. If I'm right in that assumption then it is a rigged carnival game and R & S should have to buy the car. You play with fire and you get burned! If I'm off base and a retraction and apology is warranted then one will be forthcoming. But as of now I don't see anything to change my mind.

Charley Lillard

02-20-2008, 05:02 AM

Drew had also sent me text but it came in a form I couldn't open till now. Here is his text.

Wow, this is starting to be a full time job… As I have said before, I have been at this a LONG time. Following 5 years as the GM at Barrett-Jackson and now 8 years at the helm of Russo and Steele, there is simply a complaint, story, dispute, or crying or whining, pissing and moaning I have not heard.

My track record and reputation in this hobby and the passion and integrity with which Russo and Steele operates is evidenced by the many strong relationships we maintain with our clients and the success we have enjoyed. In all the years I have been doing this, having consummated thousands of transactions, I have only ever had ONE go to court. Actually, this was back with B-J and we prevailed.

As quick-bowtie, Mr. Distad has posted. We have been able to reach an amicable agreement and keep the most valuable thing there is in this hobby, a relationship. Cars don’t talk, have feelings, or care. Enthusiasts do. And as one, so do I.

If I may be so bold, let me state that first and foremost, I am an enthusiast. At the risk of sounding pretentious, I was very fortunate to have “paid my bills” long ago. I do Russo and Steele because we truly love the hobby. Very few, if any of my contemporaries can say the same… Yes, it is wonderful to have a company that can sustain its self and pay the bills “playing with old cars” but let me be abundantly clear; I do this because I love the cars, but more importantly, I enjoy the relationships I have with many fellow enthusiasts. I love my collection of cars. I vintage race in club events, exhibit my cars when I can to share with others, and hell, I even parked my Boss 429 in the living room! (yes, Josephine is pretty cool) Suffice it to say, I am an enthusiast and collector as well.

BOTH of these ‘new issues’ 1) Jeff Yergovich of R+A Motorsports and 2) Chris Burns from Santa Barbra Car Company are as a result of consignors failing to read, understand and fulfill THEIR obligations when selling THEIR car at auction. Both are “cut and dried”. Both are subject to the contract that ALL auction company’s have and is basically “boiler plate” language.

The 1970 Blue Boss 429, of Mr. Burns simply did NOT meet the Reserve price. By law (and some other auction companies practices of No Reserve were the reason for these laws) the auction house has to divulge to its sellers the following:

Advancement of Bidding: RS retains the right to advance the bidding up to, but not in excess of, the Reserve, as agent for the Seller. RS further reserves the right, at its sole discretion, to Sell the Vehicle at a high bid price less than that price identified as the “Reserve Price,” provided that RS nets the Seller the specified reserve amount less all-applicable sales commissions and fees.

This clause is clearly stated in Russo and Steele’s Consignment Agreement under section 8, d.

Simply put, the Boss did not sell, as the Reserve was $300,000.

Nothing is worse than “working to get the reserve for a seller” only to have him “pull your shorts down” as he lifts his reserve on the block at $245,000 – for $65K less! This occurred in this instance when the above contract clause was being utilized on BEHALF of the seller in an attempt to get the seller what he said he wanted. If indeed he was wiling to take a substantial amount less, than there is only two reasons why he “shot high” on the reserve; 1) to “make us work harder” to sell the car. Anyone who has been to my auction knows this is impossible to do, since my gang works the hardest of any on the planet. 2) to have a high reserve to allow the seller to “grind” a negotiation on the block for less than the stated 10% reserve. In all my years of doing this, these are the ONLY two reasons, all others are delusions.

As for the 1968 Shelby GT500KR Fastback of Mr. Yergovich, this one is even simpler. He consigned the car with a $100,000 Reserve. It is these contracts that my staff has on the auction block. We sold the car for (coincidentally) 100 grand, met his reserve and paid him the net. If Mr. Yergovich made a mistake on his paperwork, this is not my fault. To go jumping around on my auction block saying you want more in the brief time the car is on an auction block, with the “bullets flying” and thinking you are going to then verbally raise your reserve at this chaotic moment is simply ludicrous.

I have sent a PDF of both Consignment Agreements along with this text. If they can be posted, that would be nice, since there leaves no questions.

Lets move on guys. When there are hundreds of thousands of dollars in motion, my most sincere suggestion to all fellow enthusiasts is to know your responsibilities and obligations.

Similar to when a Cop pulls you over for doing 105 mph on the freeway, the excuse of “I did not know” will not get you out of the ticket.

As I have run out of cheese and crackers, this will be my last post, I just do not have any left or the “whine”.

Drew Alcazar

southernfriedcj

02-20-2008, 05:51 AM

I had no idea that an auction company could legally shill bid! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif
Are bidders aware that they are bidding against the house? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

olredalert

02-20-2008, 06:06 AM

-------Jim,,,Company bidding happens only up to the reserve, if necessary. Since the reserve is presumably what the owner wants, the car will not be sold for less, unless negotiated. I dont think a bidder is bidding against the house if the car cant get sold until the car reaches the reserve......Bill S

Les Quam

02-20-2008, 06:07 AM

Wow! This is fascinating stuff. IF I read Drew's post correctly as posted by Charley? The auction house in writing advises the seller it has the right to "advance the bidding up to the reserve". I am not going to speculate how the bidding is "advanced" but I wonder if the bidders agreement states that the auction house can "advance" the bidding to a cars non disclosed reserve?

I have signed up to bid at a few auctions RS not being one of them and never noticed language to that effect advising me that as a bidder I won't be aware of the actual reserve prior to bidding and that the auction house can "advance" the bidding to the reserve???

This is all news to me and I have been licensed to practice law since 1983? I recall not long ago a couple of high end art auction house's running into some problems. Looks like I need to do a little research and learn a little more about the laws auction houses are subject too. Charley if Drew knows of a case sanctioning this contractual language could you ask him for the name? The whole thing just fascinates the heck out of me? Or am I misinterpreting his comments? Seems like the language implies artificial means are used by the auction house to get the price to the reserve? Why not just state the reserve is X amount of dollars and start there? Is advancing the bidding creating an illusion of some sort? Very possible I am just not reading Drew's comments the way they were intended. Because I can't see how employee's of an auction house or other auction house designee's who are unable to purchase the car bidding on a car up to it's reserve is anything other than an illusion that actual bidders exist and appear willing to pay up to a cars reserve? However nothing forces a prospective bidder to pay over reserve but I wonder if the bidder is led to believe the car is worth X amount of dollars by the bidding being advanced???

Please note no disrespect to Drew and his company is intended by this query. He is great for taking the time to chat with us and solve Quick Bow tie's issues. Really a first class neat thing to do. I am just baffled or misreading the post I guess. I am easily confused so no disrespect intended.

Charley you are the experienced expert here with this stuff what am I not understanding? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

AutoInsane

02-20-2008, 06:50 AM

"Advancement of Bidding: RS retains the right to advance the bidding up to, but not in excess of, the Reserve, as agent for the Seller."

I guess you really need to know the value of what you are buying and stick to that number.

I do not think the auction houses should be able to go up against against buyers with purely fictitous bidders. It is sad that they go to these lenghs to sell a car.

427king

02-20-2008, 06:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why not just state the reserve is X amount of dollars and start there?

[/ QUOTE ] To get more bidder excitement. People dont like to get outbid,so it gets/keeps more players in the game that pay more than they intended to. Plus if you see a ZL1 there for a 100K starting bid you may think you have a chance at 300/400K, but if it has a 700K reserve,youd stay home.People always want things more when others also want them. You know the word "shill" originated many years ago when the circuses had indoor events. 45 to 50 people would wait in a false "line" acting excited to get into the event and people coming "out" of the show acting the same way . They were all employees of the circus. After getting inaide people that Paid to get in wondered why so many people were in line trying to get in,and large lines leaving when there were only a handful of people inside.

rubbinisracing

02-20-2008, 07:19 AM

Les you have it right!

The law requires the auction house to disclose to the consignor that they have the right to advance the bid up to the reserve amount, but there is no requirement that they make this unethical (IMO) practice part of their business practice....they choose to do it! The bidders agreement makes no mention of the practice nor does the Speed Channel or ESPN when they televise the auction. It sure would add another dimension to watching it on TV and trying to figure who's the shill bidder and who's real. All we would need then is Kitty Carlyle and Soupy Sales asking some questions.

Makes me wonder if Andy hadn't yelled so quickly and so loud if the result would have been different. I think the characterization of these complaints as "whine" is very telling about R&S's attitude towards customer service after the sale. I believe I could discern the real story while listening to Clemens and McNamee and the same goes here.

427king

02-20-2008, 07:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The law requires the auction house to disclose to the consignor that they have the right to advance the bid up to the reserve amount,

[/ QUOTE ] Will someone here bid up my COPO motor on ebay , Since im aware you are doing it we wont have to tell the bidders http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

StriperSS

02-20-2008, 07:54 AM

My feeling on this is that shill bidding does not reflect the actual market value of a particular car at a particular time. If the seller sets the reserve of his car at $300,000, and real people in the audience only bid it up to $225,000, this would then indicate that the market has spoken. The seller can take his car back home and wait for more advantageous times, or decide that his car is not as valuable as he thought.
A real person bidding against the house will pay an artificial market value for that car.
Maybe that's an over-simplification, but the more I learn about these auction houses, the more I'm soured on the whole process.
My $.02 anyway.
John

redbaron

02-20-2008, 01:25 PM

All of the auction houses are nothing more than smoke and mirrors or better known as a horse and pony show as is the circus.

rich p

02-20-2008, 04:09 PM

How much time do you guys think they would need to auction off 500+ cars if they started bids at 0 ?? I have talked about this reserve auctions before and you guys think im talking out my A%^. I cant believe how many are confused about how they work on reserve auctions and E-BAY !!!

Their's Hero's and their is Zero's !!

Its funny both cases sounds like they got more money then expected and they are CRYING !!!! GREED !!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

gtomike1966

02-20-2008, 05:56 PM

The auction house is an agent for the seller of the car. You would expect the auction house to do everything possible to sell your car at the price you want, isnt that what your paying them for?
Im pretty sure that people put thier cars up for auction because they believe they will get a premium price for it, why else would you pay the high fees?
With that being said I can sorta agree with what RS is saying but it still just doesnt "feel" right http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Udon\'tgetit

02-20-2008, 05:56 PM

What does it matter if this is the car. He bought the car legally and now this seller is crying over his mistake. Obviously this guy was only doing what everybody else does at auctions and that is buying what he wanted.

GRB

02-20-2008, 06:03 PM

If the auction houses do not disclose to 'the buyers' that they may pay more for a car because they were bidding against the house that is wrong. If the auction house does indeed buy the car that's different. Otherwise it's fraud and cast a shadow of doubt on the whole business.

burnsy26

02-20-2008, 06:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Nothing is worse than “working to get the reserve for a seller” only to have him “pull your shorts down” as he lifts his reserve on the block at $245,000 – for $65K less! This occurred in this instance when the above contract clause was being utilized on BEHALF of the seller in an attempt to get the seller what he said he wanted. If indeed he was wiling to take a substantial amount less, than there is only two reasons why he “shot high” on the reserve; 1) to “make us work harder” to sell the car. Anyone who has been to my auction knows this is impossible to do, since my gang works the hardest of any on the planet. 2) to have a high reserve to allow the seller to “grind” a negotiation on the block for less than the stated 10% reserve. In all my years of doing this, these are the ONLY two reasons, all others are delusions.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am owner of the Boss 429. It is very interesting to me that Mr. Alcazar knew my mind set before I reached the auction block that night. It is also interesting to see that his comments and opinions about my state of mind before and on the block have made it to a public forum.

I find it interesting only because my partner and I were told by Mr. Alcazar that if we said anything in a public forum regarding this situation that "a ton of bricks would come down" on us. To this end I have posted nothing but facts. I posted a video of what happened to my car and let people who watched it from their own opinions.

[ QUOTE ]
Similar to when a Cop pulls you over for doing 105 mph on the freeway, the excuse of “I did not know” will not get you out of the ticket.

[/ QUOTE ]

This quote also got my attention. I guess Mr. Alcazar is reffering to me not thoroughly reading and understading my contract. But, it is acceptable for him when he doesn't know who is working for him when it comes to bids. Maybe he forgot that is what he told me when he let me know the car did not sell.

[ QUOTE ]
As I have run out of cheese and crackers, this will be my last post, I just do not have any left or the “whine”.

[/ QUOTE ]

I leave with one question. When the gentleman that bid $250,000 the first time the white 1969 Boss 429 went across the block and then decided not to pay, did that cause Mr. Alcazar to "whine"?

Just like anything in life, it depends on whose shoes you are standing in.

Chris Burns
Santa Barbara Muscle Cars
www.santabarbaramusclecars.com (http://www.santabarbaramusclecars.com)

Udon\'tgetit

02-20-2008, 07:22 PM

You know, this guy states that he never knew his contract has $100,000 as the reserve, but please notice, he signed this in November. How long does it take a person to realize a mistake?

69LM1

02-20-2008, 07:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You know, this guy states that he never knew his contract has $100,000 as the reserve, but please notice, he signed this in November. How long does it take a person to realize a mistake?

[/ QUOTE ]

Two different cars. I think everyone reasonable can agree that if you sign a contract for 100k, you should live with that.

HOWEVER, from what I read here, this guy is the BOSS429 guy, who agreed to allow RS to lower his reserve, and the car sold. BUT,it turns out that RS did not communicate with their "shill" bidders that the reserve was lower. Thus, resulting in RS "winning" the BOSS429.

Seems to me like it's Mr. Drew whos the one "whining" now.....

IMO, RS should have "manned up" and made their mistake right.

Also seems like the practice of changing the contract arraingements on the block is one big mess.........

ChevyThunder

02-20-2008, 08:09 PM

Can R & S really have it both ways? Do I understand this situation correctly ?
If you allow for a reserve to be lowered and you accept the lowered reserve yet fail to communicate to your employee ( the hardest working gang in the business)that the reserve is lowered and then your employee is bidding in the capacity to create action up to the reserve yet bids passed the reserve and becomes the high bidder , then you own the car! You can't split hairs here. Of course if it does say on the contract " If we accidently bid your car passed the reserve and become the final bid we reserve the right to tell you sorry we made a mistake" Well then I guess it is OK

BUIZILLA

02-20-2008, 08:25 PM

help me out here, i'm not the sharpest stick in the pile...

if I travel across country, prove my credibility and value worthiness to be able to bid, and then unknowingly may be bidding against a $10 hour day laborer who can't buy a Geo Metro on credit, and this is acceptable behavior of certain auction houses??

please, tell me i'm wrong..

please..

TDW

02-20-2008, 08:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
help me out here, i'm not the sharpest stick in the pile...

if I travel across country, prove my credibility and value worthiness to be able to bid, and then unknowingly may be bidding against a $10 hour day laborer who can't buy a Geo Metro on credit, and this is acceptable behavior of certain auction houses??

please, tell me i'm wrong..

please..

[/ QUOTE ]

You aint wrong from what I have read here so far.

69LM1

02-20-2008, 08:42 PM

Looks like user Udon'tgetit just registered today, and is trying to post under an alias:

http://www.69lm1.com/pics/udont.jpg

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

king_midas

02-20-2008, 09:04 PM

PWNED.

Udon\'tgetit

02-20-2008, 10:05 PM

Would I have put my name on if I was posting under an alias. Get real. I am defending what happens at an auction. Obviously you could not read that. Learn to read moron.

sYc

02-20-2008, 10:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Would I have put my name on if I was posting under an alias. Get real. I am defending what happens at an auction. Obviously you could not read that. Learn to read moron.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually we do know what is going on, which we disapprove of here. If you would like to change the tone of your last post, and be up front and honest, we will get along fine.

User names and member numbers are <font color="red"> Udon'tgetit(7978) and texas_musclecars(7979, </font> and are sharing the same computer.

SS427

02-20-2008, 10:28 PM

Thanks for calling a spade a spade Tom. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

There is a lot more of this going on then most know about. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

x Baldwin Motion

02-20-2008, 10:33 PM

Heated or interesting threads usually generate new posters.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif Welcome Kit click here (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/mypaymentpal/mypaymentpal.php?Cat=0) http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

(and some may have to share the computer in the office at the direction of the boss) http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

Udon\'tgetit

02-20-2008, 11:02 PM

Really??? I don't have to change my tone on anything when I have done nothing wrong. Don't accuse somebody of something, when you don't even know. If Texas Muscle Cars has registered, why would I be registering under a different name and how is this relevant to me. I am an individual that is reading on this and posted a reply. So sorry I cannot do that in this free country of ours.

kwhizz

02-20-2008, 11:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Really??? I don't have to change my tone on anything when I have done nothing wrong. Don't accuse somebody of something, when you don't even know. If Texas Muscle Cars has registered, why would I be registering under a different name and how is this relevant to me. I am an individual that is reading on this and posted a reply. So sorry I cannot do that in this free country of ours.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here we go again!!!!!!!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif
Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

Chevy454

02-20-2008, 11:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If Texas Muscle Cars has registered, why would I be registering under a different name and how is this relevant to me.

[/ QUOTE ]
Here's the problem, or at least what's *suspicious*...

Udon'tgetit (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showprofile.php?Cat=0&User=7978&Number=320658&Boar d=UBB1&what=showflat&page=0&fpart=3&vc=1) registered on 02/20/08 @ 08:44 AM...texas_musclecars (http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showprofile.php?Cat=0&User=7979) registered on 02/20/08 @ 10:51 AM...they share the *exact* same IP addresses and are sharing the *exact* same computer. See the problem?

I'm not suggesting any foul play, but it's not exactly a great way to get acquanted to a new site...

njsteve

02-20-2008, 11:18 PM

BUSTED! Anyone can do an IP address track and trace, so please refrain from the crocodile tears.

This is an absolute textbook example of spin control: When confronted with an undeniable fact, you must always do the following: deny, redirect, then counteraccuse.

DENY: "Really??? I don't have to change my tone on anything when I have done nothing wrong."

REDIRECT: "Don't accuse somebody of something, when you don't even know."

COUNTERACCUSE: "If Texas Muscle Cars has registered, why would I be registering under a different name and how is this relevant to me. I am an individual that is reading on this and posted a reply. So sorry I cannot do that in this free country of ours."

So how much is the Shelby? It says "Call for Price"

http://www.texasmusclecars.com/webtemplate.aspx?iid=257162

Udon\'tgetit

02-20-2008, 11:28 PM

Call them.

Chateau Slate 66

02-20-2008, 11:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Looks like user Udon'tgetit just registered today, and is trying to post under an alias:

http://www.69lm1.com/pics/udont.jpg

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Same member number, new name and location. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Profile for Udon'tgetit

Email
Member # 7978
Name Sharon Stevens
Title newbie
Total Posts 5
Homepage
Occupation
Hobbies
Location San Antonio, TX
Bio
ICQ Number
Registered on 02/20/08 08:44 AM

Udon\'tgetit

02-20-2008, 11:38 PM

What the hell are you talking about. i did not change my information. Some idiot is screwing with this. You need to obviously get a life if you are doing this to someone. I know who I am and what I do, obviously not you. Who the hell is this person anyway? I am done with these juvenile acts.

COPO 70 RS/Z28

02-20-2008, 11:51 PM

I love a good fight but...

Your credibility is eroded with tone of your message.

IMO The lady doth protest too much

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

rubbinisracing

02-20-2008, 11:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Looks like user Udon'tgetit just registered today, and is trying to post under an alias:

http://www.69lm1.com/pics/udont.jpg

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Same member number, new name and location. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Profile for Udon'tgetit

Email
Member # 7978
Name Sharon Stevens
Title newbie
Total Posts 5
Homepage
Occupation
Hobbies
Location San Antonio, TX
Bio
ICQ Number
Registered on 02/20/08 08:44 AM

[/ QUOTE ]

Busted! She works for/with Rick Prince the owner of Texas Muscle Cars...clink this link below for a view of his old web page which mentions her by name. I really don't see the need to hide as I think we all agree that by winning the bid for 100k on the Shelby he made a great buy and the consignor screwed up.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070105204817/www.nvo.com/texasmusclecars/contactinformation/

I may be somewhat responsible for the 2 new registrations...I have known Rick for about 3 years and after I posted the link to the "thats racin" show I sent him an email with a link to the same website that I did here. I wanted him to see it first hand as I'm sure someone would ask him about. I don't know how they found about the discussion here but I'm sure someone saw it here and alerted him.

sYc

02-21-2008, 12:01 AM

Howard, thanks for the info. I too do not see why Texas Musclecars felt this was the best course of action. They bought the car fair and square. Yes. is was "a steal", but how many of us would love to stumble into such a deal? And how many of us would void the deal if in their shoes? Before they started posting this crap, I was on their side, not now. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

ORIGLS6

02-21-2008, 12:02 AM

This is http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

From someone who DOES GET IT!

Edit: Sorry Tom. We must have hit the button at the same time.

Steve Shauger

02-21-2008, 12:21 AM

Geez at this point I certainly wouldn't recommend this dealer to anyone. I am sure they will come up with an excuse that some rogue employee did this.

camarojoe

02-21-2008, 12:27 AM

deja-vu....

njsteve

02-21-2008, 12:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What the hell are you talking about. i did not change my information. Some idiot is screwing with this. You need to obviously get a life if you are doing this to someone. I know who I am and what I do, obviously not you. Who the hell is this person anyway? I am done with these juvenile acts.

[/ QUOTE ]

DENY: "i did not change my information."

COUNTERACCUSE: "Some idiot is screwing with this. You need to obviously get a life if you are doing this to someone."

REDIRECT: "I know who I am and what I do, obviously not you."

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

Dog427435

02-21-2008, 12:47 AM

Is this really Joey from Georgia??

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Chateau Slate 66

02-21-2008, 01:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Is this really Joey from Georgia??

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Now THAT'S funny. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

Xplantdad

02-21-2008, 02:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is this really Joey from Georgia??

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Now THAT'S funny. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn...now my head really hurts...

Sheesh...at least the Udontgetit crew could have gotten together and told each other that they were going to resgister....

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/stupid.gif

Texas Muscle Cars

02-21-2008, 03:54 AM

This is the One and True Texas Muscle Cars. I have not, nor have I had anybody post to this forum. I have nothing to say on this situation at Russo and Steele, at this time. For anybody that knows me, knows who I am and how I operate. I will handle this in the way that I find necessary, but I will not accept the fact that anybody has been posting under my presumed name. Believe the past postings for what they truly are and that is impersonation. Thank you,

Texas Muscle Cars
The True Texas Muscle Cars
www.texasmusclecars.com (http://www.texasmusclecars.com)

BUIZILLA

02-21-2008, 04:05 AM

IP tracking is as solid as your DNA

a court of law will accept it at face value

now, where were we ?? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

Jeff H

02-21-2008, 04:52 AM

I remember reading in some of the auction information that the auctioneer is allowed to place bids on behalf of the seller up to but not reaching the reserve price. This is nothing new and I think most of the auctions clearly make this information available as I remember seeing it and I've never been involved with an auction. That's one reason why you don't want to look at what a car was bid up to even if it didn't meet the reserve. You might see a car with a reserve of $100K bid up to $90K and think that's what someone is willing to pay. But that's not necessarily a real bid. I don't think there is any new information here regarding auctions but it seems like a lot of people never knew about the auctioneer placing a bid for the seller.

69LM1

02-21-2008, 04:52 AM

Yep, I was just an expert witness in a court case where a top salesman left a company and sent an email to a multi million dollar client, posing as the president of his old company. He played like the owner of the client company was "accidentally" included in the email where he stated that company #1 could'nt wait to screw the client again this year. Then he contacted the client as company #2, saying that he left company #1 and could he earn the client's business. He thought he was being smart by using hotmail. We got the email headers, traced the IP back to company #2, and correlated everything back to company #2.

They setteled the case.........

southernfriedcj

02-21-2008, 04:53 AM

For years I have heard the mantra from the BJ auction TV coverage that (and I paraphrase) "you just need two guys that want the same car" to drive the price up. It is now apparent that you just need one guy that wants the car and a house shill, to drive the car up. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

On another note, if a car had a low reserve set(under value), could the house have their shill bid it up to the reserve and then drop the gavel? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

427.060

02-21-2008, 04:55 AM

Something seems a little odd here. Texas Muscle Cars registered here over a year ago and never posted a message on the boards until his name was mentioned. Someone else registered from his computer and denies knoing him. All of a sudden he appears after 13 months and denies that anyone registered using his computer.
James

southernfriedcj

02-21-2008, 04:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
That's one reason why you don't want to look at what a car was bid up to even if it didn't meet the reserve. You might see a car with a reserve of $100K bid up to $90K and think that's what someone is willing to pay. But that's not necessarily a real bid.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm guilty of this. I read the auction results and check the "no sales" and have alway thought that the "no sale" price was the fair market value of the car on the day.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif

Texas Muscle Cars

02-21-2008, 05:15 AM

I am on my computer now and I never registered today. I registered over a year ago, yes, but as you stated I have not posted on here before. I don't want an argument over this, I just am trying to get this straight. I heard about this all when I got in to the office tonight. I think this needs to be addressed and I don't think that it is right. That is all I am saying and that is the truth.

kwhizz

02-21-2008, 05:25 AM

"And" O.J.'s Innocent................ http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

Steve Shauger

02-21-2008, 05:37 AM

I told you it was a rogue employee.

Definition: rogue
An unprincipled, deceitful, and unreliable person; a scoundrel or rascal.

x Baldwin Motion

02-21-2008, 05:48 AM

texas_musclecars7979 is the new registrant with the same IP as UcantGetit. That is different name from Texas Muscle Cars above. Just need to find out if all three share an IP address or maybe two rogue supporters are acting without his knowledge.

either way the first two....you CAN ... get this...

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q101/65z13/callcoming.jpg

redbaron

02-21-2008, 05:52 AM

That is all I am saying and that is the truth.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

Texas Muscle Cars

02-21-2008, 06:08 AM

I do not have to keep defending myself. I am not blaming an employee, I don't know where it came from. All I am saying, is you all say those two were registered today. I have been registered for over a year. I know what the truth is. It doesn't matter as long as I know. My attorneys are handling the rest.

704EVER

02-21-2008, 07:34 AM

Why is it, that at what seems like the end of these threads, that the word lawyer always pops up? Isn't it about the admiration of these cars any more or is it all just about money?

joey

02-21-2008, 07:35 AM

No this is joey from Georgia!!!
Looks like you folks have been busy stirring up
XXXX since I have been gone. Now for a few facts.
Fact 1:Drew stated in the deleted post(someone must hope to gain from removing it) that it was the disappearing drunk bidder syndrome on the boss car and that he stepped up and done the right thing by paying the difference on the boss car out of his own pocket after reselling it.I believe reading that he said he was being the big boy.
Fact 2: Now he states that his company knowingly ran the bidding up.
Fact 3:The car hasn't been sold but has been returned to the original owner.
Fact 4: The owner is unhappy over the condition that it was returned to him in .
I dont think I need to say any more ,surely you get the point.

427king

02-21-2008, 07:47 AM

Picture this scenario. You have a COPO you have a 200K reserve on. Bidding dies at around 180K. You ask the auction house to drop the reserve. They look at you and ignore you. Reason being they risk a bad situation since the 180K bid is one of those artificial ones..The second someone outbids the artificial one, they are all over you like a rat on cheese to drop your reserve. I just cant get used to seeing artificial used in a contract of any type unless its a horse stud fee for breeding and is followed by the word insemination.

chevelleheart

02-21-2008, 07:57 AM

Good one Chuck and what a SH_TSHOW !. Never been to one of these auctions,and after reading and hearing all this......the Novice and/or 1 time car seller or buyer has to really be like a Pro Football or Hockey player...."Keep Your Head UP "

rubbinisracing

02-21-2008, 08:11 AM

I'd bet there is going to be some consideration given to not allowing video taping on the auctions in the future. If the video didn't exist of the Boss 9 going accross the block we would have "he said she said" finger pointing. The auction house would still have theirs but it would take a ruling by a magistrate to get ahold of it. And we all know how some of it just dissapears or gets recorded over or the crucial scenes are somehow missing because someone unplugged the camera or moved it.

How's that for a conspiray theory?

Viper69Z28

02-21-2008, 08:48 AM

Aloha Guys love the forum.I am just getting blown away from all this talk about shill bidding.I cant even imagine this is going on & in writing on contracts to, say it isnt so.I have been watching Barett jackson ever since it came on Speed Chanel & cant wait to watch it just like the Superbowl.After all it is like the Superbowl of Musclecars.My question is could there be shill bidding there?I know it is a No Reserve auction but I have seen some irregularities on some cars.Like some times they stop the bidding and have to go back to someone who wants to take the bid again(could it be because of a shill bidder) and some cars have to be resold for some reason not explained.Please tell me it doesnt happen there because I really want to go there one year Mahalo Irvin

kwhizz

02-21-2008, 03:54 PM

My attorneys are handling the rest. ............Texas Muscle Cars

Rick.............You did Nothing wrong in your Dealing's with R-S http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif...........But......the way you handled yourself in this thread supports my "Perception" http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif of Used Car Salesman..... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

Ken http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

My Lawyer is handling the Rest......... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

southernfriedcj

02-21-2008, 04:02 PM

In the case where the house shill bids and "wins" the car a)why don't they have to buy it like anyone else who has a winning bid? b)if they don't buy the car after screwing up the seller's auction who pays for the seller transporting the car to and from the auction and all the associated costs?
I would be uber-pissed if I spent my time and money getting my car to an auction and the hammer dropped and the damn car showed back up at my house like a bad exgirlfriend! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

It apprears from these related thread I am not the only one shocked at sanctioned shill bidding. I always figured some guys would have their buddies in the crowd to CYA, but I didn't know the house had a gog in the fight.Does Mecum shill their own auctions too?

BUIZILLA

02-21-2008, 04:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I know what the truth is. It doesn't matter as long as I know. My attorneys are handling the rest.

[/ QUOTE ] yeah, uh huh..... you originally post at 7:54pm EST, now an hour or so later you say you've already got your attorney's involved AFTER BUSINESS HOURS.... dude, your a liar, unless of course there is a pup tent in your office that they live in 24-7. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

JH

Texas Muscle Cars

02-21-2008, 04:22 PM

Do you even know when I contacted them? No, so don't call me a liar. I don't care to continue this discussion. Now, you see why I never posted before. I don't care for this. I don't sell "used cars" as you state, I have high quality Muscle and Classic Cars, but that is irrelevant. I know that I did nothing wrong at RandS. I am defending the other postings but I guess you don't see that. End of this.

69LM1

02-21-2008, 04:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Mecum shill their own auctions too?

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that's a good question! Does anybody know?

Rick H

02-21-2008, 04:54 PM

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb168/rhtoys/popcorn.gif

Dog427435

02-21-2008, 05:04 PM

Boy - This is getting hard to follow without a scorecard!

Now let me get this straight -

The first real response was at 7:54 or 9:15pm?
You are upset about being called a used car salesman or a liar?
You know what the truth is - but no one else does?

Where's my Ginkgo Biloba???

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Hey - welcome back joey! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

02-21-2008, 05:29 PM

More butter please.

Charley Lillard

02-21-2008, 05:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In the case where the house shill bids and "wins" the car a)why don't they have to buy it like anyone else who has a winning bid? b)if they don't buy the car after screwing up the seller's auction who pays for the seller transporting the car to and from the auction and all the associated costs?
I would be uber-pissed if I spent my time and money getting my car to an auction and the hammer dropped and the damn car showed back up at my house like a bad exgirlfriend! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

It apprears from these related thread I am not the only one shocked at sanctioned shill bidding. I always figured some guys would have their buddies in the crowd to CYA, but I didn't know the house had a gog in the fight.Does Mecum shill their own auctions too?

[/ QUOTE ]

Like it or not the auction house was trying to get bids for the car. Yes it screwed up when it dropped the gavel on it's own employee but the car apparently wasn't going to sell at what the owner wanted anyway since there was no real money at his price. The auction house does all it can to attract buyers. Problems like this seem to happen as car values fall and everyone is still clinging to the idea of what they thought their should be worth but maybe isn't.

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

02-21-2008, 05:55 PM

""The auction house does all it can to attract buyers.""

Shill bidding up to the reserve is a difficult way to 'attract' buyers IMHO, it sounds like it's a way to attract higher prices - which brings more cars. I realize this is a circular discussion, but for many folks who are auction observers this shill bidding clause in the contracts is new info.

The next generation of auction participants may very well just choose to sell their stuff privately, and avoid the auction process.

Rick H

02-21-2008, 06:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
More butter please.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb168/rhtoys/BUTTER2.gif

Stuart Adams

02-21-2008, 06:57 PM

Sure seems like alot of work and time and stress to transport your car, be there to converse with potential bidders, and then all anxiety of is the car going to sell for what YOU think it will. The price you think it's worth is ALWAYS more than what John Q public does, because they have no emotional ties to the car.

And then sit there and if it does not sell, which is common from the numbers I see, your drained worn out and now have to transport home and regroup.

Why is BJ the only no reserve auction house?

redbaron

02-21-2008, 07:28 PM

All the auction houses do more harm than good for our sport. How many times have you heard the phase "Well at B-J this or that sold for this much, but in the real world your car really isn't worth that much"? So this creates false markets and values. And guess who wins. The auction houses. They take 8 to 10% from the buyer and seller for a total of 16 to 20%.

TDW

02-21-2008, 07:41 PM

Do they shill bid on the lesser value cars? Say the 30-50K ones? The ones the average Joe would be interested in.

redbaron

02-21-2008, 07:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Do they shill bid on the lesser value cars? Say the 30-50K ones? The ones the average Joe would be interested in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course they do. Here is how it works. Shill bidding if less than 2 real bidders. So if the real bidder is close to the reserve, you see the guy on the floor trying to get the seller to lower his or her reserve. If the seller does the car is sold at that bid. Very seldom that the bid increases from there.

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

02-21-2008, 08:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do they shill bid on the lesser value cars? Say the 30-50K ones? The ones the average Joe would be interested in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course they do. Here is how it works. Shill bidding if less than 2 real bidders. So if the real bidder is close to the reserve, you see the guy on the floor trying to get the seller to lower his or her reserve. If the seller does the car is sold at that bid. Very seldom that the bid increases from there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your last statement was proven incorrect by the R&S example that started this whole discussion. I think the seller dropped his reserve at $265k'ish, and the car pulled another $80k or so. I think that was a pretty good run!

redbaron

02-21-2008, 08:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do they shill bid on the lesser value cars? Say the 30-50K ones? The ones the average Joe would be interested in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course they do. Here is how it works. Shill bidding if less than 2 real bidders. So if the real bidder is close to the reserve, you see the guy on the floor trying to get the seller to lower his or her reserve. If the seller does the car is sold at that bid. Very seldom that the bid increases from there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your last statement was proven incorrect by the R&S example that started this whole discussion. I think the seller dropped his reserve at $265k'ish, and the car pulled another $80k or so. I think that was a pretty good run!

[/ QUOTE ]

Rarely does that happen. Watch the film footage or pay close attention at the next reserve auction you attend. You will see that this is normal business procedure. Don't think games are not played at the No Reserve auction also.

ANDY M

02-21-2008, 10:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Howard, thanks for the info. I too do not see why Texas Musclecars felt this was the best course of action. They bought the car fair and square. Yes. is was "a steal", but how many of us would love to stumble into such a deal? And how many of us would void the deal if in their shoes? Before they started posting this crap, I was on their side, not now. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
WTF http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
If the car was stolen fair and square, and since it would not appear that anyone posting here had said anything negative about Texas Muscle Cars, Rick, please tell us why have you got your knickers in a knot. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif
It's the auction house's way of doing business being dicussed here, not Texas Muscle Cars' way of doing business.
This sounds like the time when the judge asked my lawyer if the defense had any objections to the charges being dropped. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Jeff H

02-22-2008, 05:09 AM

A lot of people keep calling it shill bidding, but if the auction house divulges that it will place a bid on behalf of the seller then I don't think that is considered a shill bid. If a private individual has his buddy placing a bid on his car, then that is considered a shill bid unless of course his buddy really wants to buy it. I'm not trying to defend anyone here, but it's in plain writing that this is what most reserve auctions do so it should be no surprise.

redbaron

02-22-2008, 06:01 AM

Steve Shauger

02-22-2008, 06:08 AM

I never knew that auction houses as part of their standard business practice bid the cars up. I had heard they may have secretly done this, but to have it in their standard contract was quite enlightening. BTW its my understanding this only applies to reserve auctions.

Now if a car is bid up by the auction house (artificially)but under the original reserve and then the auction lowers the reserve and a bid is placed by a real bidder that exceeds the lower reserve then that to me is shill bidding. Again the sale price has been established artificially by the auction house and not the market.

I am not anti auction, but this specific practice seems very questionable...at least from a buyers perspective.

SUPERSPORT

02-22-2008, 06:27 AM

http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/7901652/aview/man-eating-popcorn-while-watching-movie-_-ih017020.jpg

PeteLeathersac

02-22-2008, 06:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of people keep calling it shill bidding, but if the auction house divulges that it will place a bid on behalf of the seller then I don't think that is considered a shill bid. If a private individual has his buddy placing a bid on his car, then that is considered a shill bid unless of course his buddy really wants to buy it. I'm not trying to defend anyone here, but it's in plain writing that this is what most reserve auctions do so it should be no surprise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shill bidding was a law created to protect buyers and your words seem to express concerns only for what the sellers and auction house know of and understand?.
If they're both aware of, and agree to the trickery between themselves yet hide behind words crafted to escape the real meanings and understanding of those spending the money, that certainly doesn't make anything right...or fair!.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
~ Pete

SSjeff427

02-22-2008, 07:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
http://imagehost.vendio.com/a/7901652/aview/man-eating-popcorn-while-watching-movie-_-ih017020.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

Still laughing! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

korvette kenny

02-22-2008, 07:46 AM

All I can say is WOW http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
This is very enlightening. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif
Pass the popcorn please.

rubbinisracing

02-22-2008, 07:54 AM

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A lot of people keep calling it shill bidding, but if the auction house divulges that it will place a bid on behalf of the seller then I don't think that is considered a shill bid. If a private individual has his buddy placing a bid on his car, then that is considered a shill bid unless of course his buddy really wants to buy it. I'm not trying to defend anyone here, but it's in plain writing that this is what most reserve auctions do so it should be no surprise.

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Shill bidding was a law created to protect buyers and your words seem to express concerns only for what the sellers and auction house know of and understand?.
If they're both aware of, and agree to the trickery between themselves yet hide behind words crafted to escape the real meanings and understanding of those spending the money, that certainly doesn't make anything right...or fair!.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif
~ Pete

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BINGO!

Ladies and Gentlemen we have a winner!

rubbinisracing

02-22-2008, 08:53 AM

I received a phone call today that I had been expecting...but the conversation was not what I expected.

Rick Prince the owner of Texas Muscle Cars called me to discuss the email I had sent him (the one I mentioned in my previous post) with a link to the Racin Boys interview. Rick wanted to explain his side of the story about his purchase of the Shelby at the recent R&S auction. Rick told me that the car was never presented at auction as benifiting disabled children, no mention of the suposed back story of its 28 year history and the suposed reason for the sale. The title for the car was in the complaintants name and not the suposed father of the diabled children. The car was originally Lime Gold and had been repainted Candyapple Red which also was not revealed in the auction copy. He is not an expert on Fords and only learned of the color change when he got it home even though the vin# would have told him the original color if he knew how to decode it. He bought it because he thought it was a good deal on a Shelby GT500KR and figured the auto tranny was hurting its value and the reason it sold for 100K plus 8%. With this new information I'd say it was well bought but far from a steal. Rick went on to say that the guy telling the story had really upset him with his comment that Rick had taken money away from these kids. Rick has been very giving in regards to charitable causes and those comments troubled Rick greatly. He didn't answer the phone calls or call the guy as he originally said he would because R&S said they would handle it. After Rick finishes telling me all this I let him know that I nor most of the guys here think he did anything wrong and we stated so in our post and that the uproar was about the post he and Rachael/Sharon had made on the sYc where she was found out to be a liar. Rick tells me that he didn't make any post and hasn't visited this site in a while, but one of the guys who works in the shop does visit a lot and talks about this site from time to time. I ask Rick to got to his computer and read the thread about Russo & Steele and see what I'm talking about and then call me back. 90 minutes later Rick calls me and is quite bothered about the post that were made in the thread by Rachael/Sharon and supposedly himself. He says he confronted Rachael (who I have never met) who turns out is his daughter and works with him. He also confronts the guy in his shop and both deny any knowledge of the post. He then confronts Rachael a second time and she tearfully admits making all the post even the ones from him in an effort to support her Dad who had felt terrible about the way he had been portrayed in the Racin Boys interview. I admire his daughters courage but don't condone her methods and neither does Rick. I felt it best that I make this post so the truth and Ricks side of the Shelby purchase could be told.

Moderators, I ask that this post stay up till Monday for all to see and then it and the posts by Rachael be deleted from the thread.

Charley Lillard

02-22-2008, 08:59 AM

Thanks for the update.

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

02-22-2008, 06:01 PM

Good info, clears the air a bit.

(BTW, not to hijack, but what color is Lime Gold??)

ANDY M

02-22-2008, 06:04 PM

Marlin, think Citrus green but with a little more "pop", like a metal flake paint.

Mr70

02-22-2008, 06:20 PM

I think it resembles 1970 color #45 Green Mist metallic more then Citrus Green.

http://www.mustangdreams.com/california%20special%20full.jpg

http://www.mustangdreams.com/cs%20emblem.jpg

Stefano

02-22-2008, 06:42 PM

Just to clarify,the VIN will not provide the Color by itself, unless you use it to reference the registry. I'm sure you meant the door tag/body plate, located on the inside of the drivers door, which has the VIN and other pertinent build information on it. These tags are accurately reproduced by Kevin Marty.

Interesting post Howard.

ps I watched a '68 GT500 Convertible, Same Color Change Combo sell at R&S for less than $90k.

YENKO DEUCE REGISTRY

02-22-2008, 06:56 PM

Thx

tirebird

02-22-2008, 07:07 PM

Well, this was far more interesting reading than this morning's paper. Took a lot longer too. I have a few comments that are probably not of interest to most of the readers here. I've never bought or sold a car at auction, never attended an auction, and never watched more than a few seconds of an auction on television. In my opinion, if the auction houses want to protect their supposedly good name, then they have to eliminate this shill business. Yes, by the letter of the law, it's legal. But, by the spirit of fairness and transparency, it's sleezy. There's no better word for it. If a car has a 100k reserve and real buyers only bid 80k, then that's the real value from the buyers willing to purchase the car. Artificially inflating the value up to a possibly outdated price point, doesn't do the hobby or the real buyers any good. But, I'm probably really naive here, it's really about making money for the auction houses.

Out here in California, there are a lot of foreclosed homes being auctioned by banks. I'm sure the same situation exists where you live too. I was visiting friends recently and happened upon one of those auctions at the steps of a local courthouse. This one home, that originally sold for 750K was on the block for a minimum bid of 355k. It didn't get any bids. The bank didn't have shill in the audience to bid the minimum. Would that have been okay? I don't know the law. But I do know, on this day, the bank set an unreasonable price and the laws of supply and demand, rejected it. There was no artificial inflationary bids to unrealistically price the home at a higher value even if it didn't sell. I like that model for the auction business.