The most "significant" Chevrolet performance car.

[hvychev]

In one of the Mecum threads an interesting topic was brought up. Someone made the comment that the blue RS ZL1 was "the most significant muscle car in existence" or something to that effect. Then our esteemed Mike G. disagreed and said that there were cars in his collection that were of less value that he would not trade evens for on that ZL1. This is a very interesting topic. Everybody seems to have an opinion as to what the most "significant" GM performance car is. Significant could have many meanings. It could be a race car, it could be a car that started a trend in the automobile industry, something rare, etc.

Lets have an exercise. What do you feel is the most significant single CHEVROLET performance car in existence? In keeping with the tradition of this site, just Chevrolets please, as we know there are countless "significant" Fords, Mopars, Pontiac's, Olds, etc. What do you think is the end all be all of Chevrolet performance cars?

My vote for one particular car is the #1 Dick Harrell ZL1 race car.

If I were to go a certain type of car I would say the 1957 Chevrolet Bel Air. I feel that car is probably most known by all as THE most recognized American Performance car of all time.

[92646]

Frank I would vote for the blue R/S ZL1 that just sold. About 15 years ago I walked past that car 3 times at a car show here in Huntington Beach and never gave it a second look. It was early, the hood was closed and I do not remember anybody around the car. When I walked past it the fourth time, the hood was up and everything changed. This was the first real ZL1 I had ever seen in person and boy did it make an impression on me then.
Mark Sheppard

[ORIGLS6]

We're opening a HUGE can of worms here.

One for the upcoming loooooooooooooooooooooong list would be the '57 Chevy/Corvette F.I.: the first to hit the magical One HP per Cubic Inch.

[Charley Lillard]

I think I had commented that my opinion that the RS ZL1 is probably the most valuable production Chevrolet. My comparison would be against the # 1 ZL1 in stock form and I would rather take the RS ZL1 especially in the unrestored condition that it is in. I would also take it over either of the ZL1 Vettes. One has no paperwork and I think the other is restored.

[Tenney]

One of the Grand Sports. Would lean toward the blue RS ZL-1 musclecar-wise, tho.

[hvychev]

Charley or anyone who knows, other than the blue ZL1's amazing originality, what is the story behind the car? Any significant history or events involving the car?

Interesting so far guys! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[kwhizz]

This is the one that had the "Most" Impact on me growing up in Chicago.....From my perspective......The Sickness started with the 62 409 "Bubbletop" cars......I know, I know.....But for me .....this is where it started and I have a real soft spot for them........There was a guy in the Neighborhood by the name of Bill Bretz that had a duplicate of the Car in the Pic........Ran it at the International Amphitheater and the Grove and was the Fastest Car around at the time........Pretty Cool and Good Memories

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a251/kwhizz/Janda%2008/Jandas103.jpg

Ken

[csx289]

Frankie,

Pretty good chapter about the blue RS ZL1 in my book- also includes Ken Barnhart's ZL1...good reading if I don't say so myself http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Hell, the damn book is less than 4 crappy magazines if you buy it on Amazon.com http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

On the topic (and also in the book), might I cast a vote for the one and only 1968 Z/28 convertible built for Pete Estes - one-off car with factory cross ram, 4.56 gear, JL8 brakes, 'glass hood, etc. I've driven it and it is one wicked car - and nobody will EVER say they like "the other" Z/28 convertible more http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Colin

[Les Quam]

Enough about your book already that was about as shameless a plug as you will ever find! One car book doesn't make you Earnest Hemingway you know? LOL LOL
Although it was a nice chapter on the ZL-1s.

[quick-bowtie]

Colin beat me to it but I agree the Estes Z car.. That car is just plain awesome.

[Charley Lillard]

I consider the Estes car a one off special built car so it wouldn't fit in my comparison to the RS ZL1. I would still rather have the ZL1 though.

[92646]

Colin, what other Z/28 convertible are you referring to?
Mark Sheppard

[x Baldwin Motion]

[ QUOTE ]
Colin, what other Z/28 convertible are you referring to?
Mark Sheppard

[/ QUOTE ]

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q101/65z13/68z28rag.jpg
I had this in a Z28 file, not sure of the story. It can't be real? I do recall the gashole issue though.

[69 Post Sedan]

For me growing up (Beloit, WI) I can remember a black Nova that had Cragars all around it with the biggest tires I had ever seen in the back. My first car was a Nova. As I grew older I can remember an article in a magazine that interviewed Don Yenko. He said the 1969 427 Yenko Nova was “a beast, almost lethal, a car that they should not have produced; as they were skirting the edge of product liability when they built this car”.

So I vote for the 1969 Chevrolet 427 Yenko Nova. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn2/brkyard/1969427YenkoNova.jpg

[Verne_Frantz]

My 2cents:
I think Kwizz was close.
In the entire history of Chevrolet, there was never a more "designed from scratch", full package, under one RPO number, race purpose vehicle than the '63 Impala Z-11. IF you look at everything that car had under ONE RPO #, strickly built for racing only, (with only 50 produced just to have NHRA sanction) there was never another Chevrolet produced with so many specific packaged features for one purpose. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif

Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Verne_Frantz]

Are we including "one-offs" or dealer conversions in this query, or are we looking at an RPO'd vehicle completely designed by Chevrolet and offered to the public?

[flyingn]

I'd lean towards the 65 Z15 Chevelle. Chevrolet's first big motored mid sized car....

[hvychev]

Verne, when I was thinking about this thread before I posted it, what I really had in mind is one PARTICULAR car out there like ex: Red Alert, or Dickie Harrel #1 ZL1, the blue RS ZL1, so and so's original owner Yenko Camaro, etc.

[69hurstSC]

significant...? probally the first ever 427 conversion car.

[copo69]

I agree with Verne on the '63 Z11. By significance, this car had to be a major influence on the popularity of later Chevrolet muscle. Car was more competitive and much more specialized than the ZL1 plus they were easier to sell. Many ZL1's lost their motors to boats and other race cars or were motors were pulled just to sell the cars. While they had a weight advantage even Jenkins said the iron motors made more power. I'm a Camaro person but feel that big Impala was more significant. I think the runnerup would be the early Z28's in TransAm.

[WILMASBOYL78]

This is like asking....what do you like more..??? Redheads or Blondes....the answer is....YES http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

Tibor....how you doin' in Cheeseland..???

NuYawk

[67rscoupe]

Great!now don't tell me this car will be at the next mecum auction selling for $800k.


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Colin, what other Z/28 convertible are you referring to?
Mark Sheppard

[/ QUOTE ]

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q101/65z13/68z28rag.jpg
I had this in a Z28 file, not sure of the story. It can't be real? I do recall the gashole issue though.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Les Quam]

You guys are talking about generic non specific rare cars with the exception of the Z-28 CV mentioned by Colin.

The reason the unrestored blue ZL-1 is arguably the holy grail of muscle cars is because it is a rare car like many that have been discussed in this excellent thread BUT its condition and options for what should have been a race car like most ZL-1s were is what it sets it apart from the rest.

An original unrestored unmolested highly optioned RS ZL-1 with a documented history makes it number one Chevy IMHO. If the Z-28 CV mentioned by Colin is unrestored then it has to be up there except that the ZL-1 is a much stronger running car than the Z-28. Big block Chevy is really the pinnacle of 60s performance I think?

Now a really interesting discussion is this? I think Charley's not so super snake is the number one most significant Ford muscle car ever built since we are excluding Vettes and Cobra's as sportscars and not muscle cars. Here is the query, between the blue unrestored Zl-1 and Charley's not so super snake which is more historically significant? We need a Mopar muscle car candidate a specific car perhaps a Pontiac and an Olds and lets get ready to rumble and choose the holy grail of muscle cars?

[hvychev]

Les, by asking that question you are going to get a zillion different responses all over the board. Guys, please humor me and stick to Chevys and make it one particular specific car.

Just for fun I am going to disagree with Les, Charley, and others. I do not agree that the blue ZL1 is more significant than for instance, the #1 ZL1 that I picked. I understand everything that you stated as to its originality and rarity, but how could you possibly say it is more "significant" in the true definition of the word, than the #1 ZL1? The #1 ZL1 has some serious racing history, is the ultimate supercar (ZL1), and was driven by one of the fathers, if not THE father of all supercars. Add to this that the car is still out there today, in its full race trim glory, and even makes a lap down the track from time to time. I just am not seeing this. I will also add that if the #1 ZL1 was bought new and put into a time capsule and opened up today as a brand new 1969 Camaro ZL1 in 2008 it would STILL NOT be as significant as it were having been raced.

[RamAirDave]

Very broad question, which opens up a lot of discussion and opinion.

One particular car, or one particular model? And what exactly is "significance"? Significant in the collector realm today, or how it affected the automotive industry decades ago?

The Z11 and Z16 cars really opened the gates to the cars that would follow. I think the Penske Sunoco 69 is probably the most iconic of the early Camaros.

Particular Camaros, the LMB RS ZL1 and the <2000mi. (I grew up knowing it as 1400, think its around 1800 now) Black RS Z are at the top IMO. Just not sure if they have the historical "significance", i.e. race history, prototypes, one-offs, first/last of production, test car, etc.

The LMB 68 Z X-ram Vert pictured above was built by a guy on TC, he may be on here as well. Stamped and repo-papered, but there shouldnt be any confusion as it being #2 of 1.

[Late BrakeU2]

This question was bandied around on LS1 tech and the responses ran into the thousands. Since the term significant was chosen I think the Estes car stands alone. Had it not been built,you might have seen about five consecutive years of Manufacturers championships for ford in the T/A series. Five decades of the RPO..how many others lasted more than one?. From a valuation standpoint which would fetch more at say BJ,that(or any) ZL1 or the Estes car?. Don't get me wrong I love the ZL1's but all 69 don't add up to the influence that vert had in changing chevy history in both production and racing.

(Ken,i'm with ya brother)
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a147/LateBrakeU2/btop3.jpg

[markjohnson]

If we're talking specific cars, a favorite of mine would have to be the #3 Berger ZL-1 Camaro. It may not have those precious, over-rated hide-away headlights, but that Daytona Yellow #3 car DOES happen to be a double COPO with the Sports Car Package, Berger Chevrolet heritage, great colors, Endura bumper and be an M-22 car (rare, even for a ZL-1). Probably the most photographed and documented ZL-1 of all. It is simply the ULTIMATE '69 Camaro and just to stand next to it is awe-inspiring.

[hvychev]

Mark, I too thought of the #3 ZL1. But it was NOT the most photo documented. #1 BLOWS it away with vintage and modern photos.

[markjohnson]

Can't stop staring at that black '62 Bel Air. A 1962 409 Bel Air is my all-time favorite car. The list of racers that used those cars is like a who's who list of stock-bodied drag racing. Prettiest car ever made, arguably!

[leach]

What about a 1965 Chevelle Z-16 unrestored survivor car in pristine condition I think that is a Chevrolet performance car.

[1railman]

For me the most significant would be the Z-11's. The pinicle would be the ZL-1's.

[Jeff Murphy]

I would think it must be the Camaro and in particular the Z-28 if we are talking muscle only.

However, if Frank really means "significant" Chevrolet performance car and not just muscle car, it must be the Corvette, I'm afraid. It was (is?) the only true American sports car. Between the early Duntov specials, the show cars, the Grand Sport program, the 67 L-88s and the more recent C5R/C6R endurance racing program it has been the only car to really put the US on a world stage. I think that the C5R/C6R program in particular distinguishes the Vette due to the direct factory involvement, the dominance it held over its class and the fact that the road ZO6 was built in the same department. It continues in production form to be "the dogs bollocks", as they say over here.

As for the other marques:

- Ford = the Mustang in all it's various guises
- Pontiac = GTO
- Buick = GSX version of the Skylark
- Olds = W-30 (although I prefer W-31s)
- Plymouth = 'Cuda, in particular the Hemi cars (although I'm partial to the Wing cars)
- Dodge = dare I say the Viper?
- Chrysler = the 300 maybe?
- AMC = AMX

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[Steve Shauger]

Pete Estes 68 vert was a one off but my understanding when it was sold to the public it was sans the JL8 and crossram. If we are focusing on chevrolet muscle cars the ZL1 does it for me. Now which one take your pick #1,55 or 3.

The blue 68 convert Z28 is a clone with made up paperwork and restamped parts. Not sure why the owner went as far as he did with restamping parts and making fake paperwork http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif

[Charley Lillard]

[ QUOTE ]
This question was bandied around on LS1 tech and the responses ran into the thousands. Since the term significant was chosen I think the Estes car stands alone. Had it not been built,you might have seen about five consecutive years of Manufacturers championships for ford in the T/A series. Five decades of the RPO..how many others lasted more than one?. From a valuation standpoint which would fetch more at say BJ,that(or any) ZL1 or the Estes car?. Don't get me wrong I love the ZL1's but all 69 don't add up to the influence that vert had in changing chevy history in both production and racing.

(Ken,i'm with ya brother)
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a147/LateBrakeU2/btop3.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

It sounds like you are saying the Estes car was the reason Z28's were built but I think I remember that being proven untrue by the fact that they were either already announced or being built by the time the Estes car was built ?

[mrrec]

I'm glad the Z16 has been brought up a few times in relation to "the most significant Chev performance car". It is the father of all big blocks to follow. The ZL1 is certainly more popular and desirable, though.

Funny, sometimes in conversation I'll say Z16 and you get this http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

Doesn't happen with ZL1.

Dave

[Donutblue]

I would have to say the 69 ZL-1. It's significance is not only based on it's very limited production, but with it's intentionally under rated HP we need to give GM a lot of credit for creative marketing and advertising. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[hvychev]

Jeff M, yeah, I totally was not even thinking about a 67 L88 Vette. Those are way up there. I am sure one of the Vette guys like Tim G from Texas knows of one that is way more special than the rest. I remember when I started attending Bloomington Gold 10 years ago I would get those Gold Standard Programs and read the stories about each L88 over and over. Those cars are amazing. True race cars.

[hvychev]

By the way, was there ever any leads as to the stolen paperwork on the Estes Z28 convert? That story makes me sick when I think about it.

[PeteLeathersac]

Not necessarily the most valuable or coveted by our group here but don't forget some of the earliest most significant performance cars in Chevrolet history were actually Fhttp://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gifRDS!.

After unloading his interests in Chevrolet to GM founder Billy Durant, Louis Chevrolet a his brothers got back to their real love...racing!.
The Chevy Bros Frontenac Motors Co. produced the very successful 'Fronty' Ford racers also making their modified heads, parts and cars available to other racers..
Sound like anyone else you know of?http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif.

Here's a bit of an online blurb on the subject..
http://www.modelt.ca/speed.html

~ Pete
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[Late BrakeU2]

No,Piggens got the green light from Estes almost two years before that car was built on 7/15/68. I think the car was more a thanks from the engineers for him approving the 67 program,it certainly helped the RPO transcend time.

[66 L78 ragtop]

The most "significant" Chevrolet performance car?
Sounds like a rhetorical qustions...everyone knows it was the 1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 4spd Indianapolis 500 Pacecar!!! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[JChlupsa]

significant car or shall i say cars would be any 55 Chevy with a V-8. had that V-8 not been introduced in 55, none of the others would have been where they are today

[x Baldwin Motion]

significant:

4. having great power or influence

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif As far as a model of car it would be hard to argue the "significance" of the 65 Chevelle Z16. That is what turned street muscle into a big block frenzy.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif A particular example of this car would be the prototype which is right here on this site with Dave M.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

http://www.z16chevelle.com/First%20Z16%20Chevelle%20Prototype_files/image002.jpg

[Charley Lillard]

I'm startin to like this 66 L78 ragtop guy.

[Paul_S]

Too many to choose from... Just production huh?

'55 265 Corvette & Passenger
'57 FI "283HP" Corvette
'57 Passenger FI (Black Widow was factory race only)
'62 409 + Lightweight cars
'63 Z-11
'63 Z06
'65 Z-16
'65 L-78
'66 L-72
'66 L-79 Chevy II/Nova
'67+ L-88's
'69 ZL1

[Shankin]

I will put my vote in for the original grand sport corvettes.

[Canada George]

My vote is for the L88/ZL1 Corvettes. One RPO number assured you of a complete factory-built race car, an entire PACKAGE of mandatory components and unavailable items designed for and tested on the proving grounds of the world’s greatest racing circuits, Le Mans, Sebring, and Daytona.

L88/ZL1 Corvette… not simply Chevrolet’s pinnacled race gas-only fueled 560HP+ engine sitting in America’s great sports car; a top-of-the-line racing machine.

No other car mentioned in this poll could outperform these giants… in speed, handling, braking… PERFORMANCE and made available to the buying public.

That’s SIGNIFICANT.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Terry24]

Heres a question to go along with this thread........are we talking car or motor or both? I think it would be extremely hard to pick just one car, with the Blue Flame engine, first V-8, Bel Airs, lightweights, Grand Sports, COPO, ZL-1, etc..if you think about it, all of the cars everyone has mentioned is in a class by themselves, hard to compare and contrast.

[firstgenaddict]

63 GS Vette with the Aluminum motor and side draft webbers... IMHO "The Holy Grail"

[Canucklehead]

How come nobody has mentioned the father of muscle cars, the GTO!. Sure it's a pontiac but still a GM product. I would have to say the Corvette. With all it's incantations through the years and continuing to be a leading contender in the performance world gives it the #1 spot for me. As far as the most significant corvette?, depends who you ask, for me being a musclehead i would say the 69 Zl1, ask a racer, collector, geezer, you'll get different answers. For contributions to GM credit the vette far exceeds any other model. THE BLUE DEVIL!!!, nuff said.

[Chevy454]

[ QUOTE ]
significant car or shall i say cars would be any 55 Chevy with a V-8. had that V-8 not been introduced in 55, none of the others would have been where they are today


[/ QUOTE ]
EXCELLENT point, Jeff...if nothing else, the SBC should get it's own paragraph for changing the hot rodding landscape for years and years to come!

IMO, the true answer to the original question is probably more of a "personal" thing, ya know? Someone mentioned a bubbletop back in Chi-town that started it for them...someone else mentioned seeing a 'Vette and beginning the love affair...me, I've always told dad that ZL1 #3 would be near the top, but Barnhart's car trumps that hands down and is probably my #1 or #1a...but, being a Chevelle guy deep down, I've always thought the red LS6 on the brochure hooked a LOT of folks back in the day, plus I might happen to know where a *fairly* decent & historic example might be parked! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[ORIGLS6]

[ QUOTE ]
I've always told dad that ZL1 #3 would be near the top, but Barnhart's car trumps that hands down and is probably my #1 or #1a...

[/ QUOTE ]

An opinion shared by many! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif And in my humble opinion, THE most valuable ZL-1 currently in existance. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[sYc]

A couple that really hooked folks, as Rob said, the LS-6 Chevelle ad, and one that really got my attention back in the day, the Motion ad guarantying 11 sec. ¼ times.

My personal list would be:
Grumpy’s ’67 Camaro,
Barnhart's ZL-1
Morrison's Gibb Nova
Grand Sport Corvette
Hedrick's '69 Yenko Camaro
Any other of Grumpy’s cars
Gibb ZL-1 #1
Gibb ’68 “race” Nova
The Camaro Don Yenko won the Daytona Citrus 250 in.
The Sunoco road race Camaro
Berger ZL-1 #3

[hvychev]

One of the cars that "got me" in the sense that Rob describes it was the first time I ever saw the 68 Dick Harrel Chevelle in Muscle Car Review when Joe Sweezy owned it. I must have read that article over and over. This was before I ever came to this board, so my thought was I would NEVER be able to ever own a supercar of any kind! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[camarojoe]

I agree that the most "significant" Chevrolet is likely more a personal thing than something to be agreed on by the masses. Grand Sport vettes mean nothing to me personally, nor do any Z11 Impalas or convertible Z/28s, not to say they weren't important cars for Chevrolet, and to others, but none of those were significant in ME becoming interested in what I'm into today. I'd say the car that sticks in my head as "the one that started it all" was when Brian Henderson brought his freshly restored fathom green 69 sYc Camaro to a little local show in my hometown on his way to the Camaro Nationals some time in the early 90's. I know I wasn't old enough to drive, and my brother Erik was 5 years younger than i was...so we were both pretty young...Regardless, we knew what a Yenko was from the many stories my dad had told us over the years... and ironically were probably about the only people at that show who did! I talked Brian's ear off for an hour or more about the car, and he answered all my questions and mentioned he thought it was cool that a couple of punk kids showed that much interest in learning about Yenko specifics. It was the coolest car I had ever seen, and at the time there wasn't anyone else restoring Camaros to that level of detail. (probably still isn't as far as that goes!) It was the first Yenko I ever recall seeing "in person", and to this day it sticks in my mind as one of my favorite supercars ever.

That day started a friendship with Brian that has spanned close to 20 years now (wow!) and that Camaro is what got my blood flowing and eventually lead me to where I am today. On a personal level, I'd definitely say that green car was the most "significant" one for me...
-JB

http://www.yenko.net/reunion/yenkobh.jpg

[1967Z28]

MkII Mystery Motor Impalas. Can you imagine how many more cool and seriously fast Chevrolets would have been built had the GM racing ban not gone into effect in mid-'63?

-Jon

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t114/dog427435/img126.jpg
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j320/VerneFrantz/63Mystery427.jpg

[Supercar_Kid]

I'm with my brother Joe on BKH's old FG/Black 69 Yenko Camaro. I'll never forget the first time I saw it at the Ebensburg Weekend of Wheels show...and I'll definitely never forget the first time I got a ride in it...at SCR1 when Brian showed it no mercy. An L88 at 8 grand just has a ring to it you won't forget.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/3gears.gif

[Xplantdad]

Wow Joe...what a great post!

I can't name the most important...I like them all http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

BTW, I owe my interest in muscle cars to my brother Gary...I knew what a Yenko, a Nickey, a Bill Thomas and a Dana were from a pretty early age. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Verne_Frantz]

I'd have to say that everyone has had great choices. Frank's original question was "What do you feel is the most significant single CHEVROLET performance car in existence?"
No offense to Frank, but the word "significant" has too many broad meanings to all of us to really agree on just ONE. Some have interpreted it as the most significant one for "them" personally which got them into the hobby with such focus, others have picked the highest horsepower, or the very first OHV V8. My pick hinged on Chevrolet's most complete racing package ever offered under one RPO. (and by the way, I stand by that; the L-88s nor the Z-06 Corvettes, nor the ZL-1s were offered with an overall package of race-only features as was the Z-11).
Does that mean the Z-11 was the most "significant"? No. It just fit the criteria I used to answer the question, as each of the other cars mentioned fit the criteria of the people who mentioned their picks. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Dog427435]

I've got to agree with Joe - sometimes the most "significant" Chevrolet performance car to some can be an uninteresting car to me. Don't get me wrong, I love cars and can appreciate the hard work and devotion that can go into any car, be it a muscle car or the most bizarre creation.
When I was 15 there was a '59 Studebaker Lark post car for sale in a gas station in Hempstead. It didn't matter it was a 2 bus ride to get there - I was there twice a week, to look, until it was gone. He wanted $600 for it, if I could have gotten my Dad to loan me $550, it would have been mine.
The hood and front fenders were molded together and tilted forward. It was bright green metalflake with a 327 - 4 speed and straight axle front end. The inside was an entire black '64 Impala SS interior, buckets, console, door panels and dash. I was in love, hooked on that look, straight axle, custom interior and big motor!
Loving the look wasn't enough, it wasn't a Chevy - This lead me to a long line of '55 Chevy's and my most "significant" Chevrolet - not a factory produced car - but a Two Lane Blacktop style, big block, 4 speed '55 Chevy. We were building them years before the movie came out! Nothing has the look, the feel or brutal power of a car built to those standards. To underestimate the effect of these home built hot rods on GM's future decisions would be an injustice!

[redeuce]

1

[redeuce]

Interesting pic from the past:

Estes Camaro circa 1994 on it's maiden voyage North.



http://www.classicmusclecars.com/images/showroom/2456_full.jpg

[Canada George]

Verne,

I agree with you that “significance” is a somewhat subjective term and would not try to argue any one choice is “correct” but I believe we may have a difference of opinion with your statement that the RPO-Z11 was the most complete racing package ever offered by Chevrolet.

Let me reiterate: RPO-L88 was a COMPLETE RACING PACKAGE; not an engine-only option. This applies to the RPO-L88/ZL1 Corvette only (not the ZL1 Camaro which we agree was NOT a complete packaged race car).

The Z11 was of course one of the most SIGNIFICANT race cars in its time but I don’t believe it can be said it was a MORE complete package. Wanna compare lists?

Regardless, two incredible factory-built race cars. I give the L88/ZL1 Corvette the nod as being more significant because it could be ordered by anyone with the money and patience.

[Verne_Frantz]

I don't mind a healthy debate. Make a list of all the features that were unique to an L-88 Vette other than those which were standard on any other big block Vette, and I'll do the same for the Z-11 Impala. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[x Baldwin Motion]

I'll make the popcorn! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[Mr70]

L-88/ZL-1 Corvette vs. Z-11 Impala...this outta be pretty good. http://www.lotterypost.com/emoticons/lurk.gif

[wagonman]

hello,
i dont mean to steal or change the direction of this thread.but i'm the guy who built the blue z/28 convertible.
a friend informed me of my car appearing on this site and i have read the posts.

i would like to clear some things......
i have no wrong intentions on the build of this car.yes the engine has been properly broached,stamped etc....i have been very open on this build from the very beginning....

why i did it was because it can be done....we all know this practice is going on...i'm not hiding behind a clone but rather standing in front of one...

if it ever shows up at an aution for $800k as previously mentioned the new buyer will sign a legal document that he or she is knowingly purchasing a recreation.and i will always retain that document.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c74/1963wagonman/100_4871.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c74/1963wagonman/Ron20Kimball20Stock_CAM_01_RK0139_0.jpg

[LS6 RAT]

Interesting that you consider the L-88 a package. It was not bundled as such. When ordering the L-88 option, there were of course some mandated options but they were priced individually.
The ZR2 package, available to the '71 LS-6 engine was a package. The list price was $1749.00 and included the MA6, K66, V01, J56, F41 etc, along with restriction of options that couldn't be ordered, just like on the L-88. However the above options were NOT available separately on other models, which is not the case with the L-88 years. Those options were available separately and could have been ordered with other engine options.
So as to a "racing package" you would need to give the nod to the LS-6 ZR2 Corvette of 1971.

[ANDY M]

Wagonman, please fill in your profile. It is insulting to say on a public forum that you stand in front of your car, but yet you won't reveal your name to us.
Not all of us here are as well informed as you would think us to be.
I applaud you posting a defense of what you built or had built for you, but you make me question your sincerity when you hide behind a screen name.

[Verne_Frantz]

I'm a little confused by the list of RPOs such as K66, J56, F41, etc that were bundled with the ZR2 package, but were not available on other Vettes. Why were they RPOs then, rather than just additional "special equipment"? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

In any case, here is my list:

RPO Z-11 Impala features

* The 427cid engine itself: special crank, rods, pistons, heads, cast push rod guides, intake, valvecovers, water pump, air cleaner, oil pan, balancer, flywheel, hollow fuel pump rod, fuel lines and filter, plus misc. fittings, brackets & springs
* Special suspension, including Corvette Z-06 brake backing plates with unique metallic linings, unique coil springs & ball joints
* Special roller type rear axle bearings, retainers and studs
* No body sound deadener
* Cowl induction
* 15x5.5” wheels
* 4.11 positraction rear axle
* Aluminum body components, including hood, hood lock support, front fenders, front and rear bumpers & brackets, front splash shield, grille brackets, fan shroud, battery tray
* No other options available
* Only 50 of them were built just to satisfy NHRA’s requirement for Super Stock.

None of the above was standard equipment with any other 409 car. And the only items above that were optional on other models are the 15x5.5 wheels and the 4.11 posi.

Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[SmallHurst]

I have no dog in this hunt, so I am going to let go on what I think.

Personally, you have to look at what started everything before anything else can develop. You have to include some cars not mentioned such as the original Corvette. True, this was not a barn burner, but it was a platform that could be built upon. The '55 shoebox with the smallblock. It was the everyday car that put the chev smallbolock on the map. The 409 Impala, a big car with grace and speed. The Z16 chevelle, the '67 Z/28, the ZL-1 camero, and the LS-6 Chevelle and Corvette. All of these cars are without a doubt very important cars. Dealer cars are a a different bag of chips.

For me, the most 'significant' Chevy is the one in someones garage that they would rather part with their first born than that car. If it was not for the passion that is ignited within on these cars, then Chevy, Ford, Mopar would not have developed the car for the 'enthusiast'. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

Oh, by the way! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/youguysrock.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[LS6 RAT]

Verne,

During the 1968 and 1969 Corvette model years those RPO items were available as separate ordered options on L-36, L-68 & L71 as well.

However in 1971 those were what made up the ZR2 package and are listed on the Corvette Order Copy sheets as ECL codes. They weren't even listed on any ordering form as separate items or referred to as RPO items. They were however spelled out in GM's verbage as to what the ZR2 package consisted of.

[king_midas]

In light of today's latest news-- The Chevy Volt? GM EV1?

Help-- Cosworth Vega anyone..???>>!>>!>!>>!>!>!>

[wagonman]

[ QUOTE ]
Wagonman, please fill in your profile. It is insulting to say on a public forum that you stand in front of your car, but yet you won't reveal your name to us.
Not all of us here are as well informed as you would think us to be.

I applaud you posting a defense of what you built or had built for you, but you make me question your sincerity when you hide behind a screen name.

[/ QUOTE ]


ok i will add to my profile......thank you....as far as putting my name...i dont think so...i try not to put it on any public forum.....but if anyone pm's me.i will give them my name and number and we can chat on the phone...

as a matter of fact....650-537-3125....is my cell......

thanks guy's

[Canada George]

Verne,

As I said previously, I challenge, with respect your statement that, “(No) L88s… were offered with an overall package of race-only features as was the Z-11” and that, “there was never another Chevrolet produced with so many specific packaged features for one purpose”.

Well, before we compare packages to see whose is bigger http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif let me add the disclaimer that I do not profess to be the definitive expert on this subject. For many reasons I will attempt to explain, the subject of the L88 PACKAGE remains convoluted and open to much misconception. Hopefully my longtime interest and consideration of the matter will prevent me from adding to the confusion.

To begin with there has always been a cloud of mystery over the entire L88 program, starting from the upper echelons of General Motors themselves. This was a tricky proposition for GM; forced to make a bona fide racer available for particular eligibility requirements in the professional racing circuits. Made technically available but not marketed aggressively; in reality, heavily discouraged. A result of this is very little of a paper trail showing clearly what the L88 was all about.

But let me assure you, the L88/ZL1 Corvette was top-to-bottom, front-to-back all-out RACE CAR. The car delivered to the county’s top race teams was the very same “packaged” version available to all.

Did the package have a name? Well, not officially during the time of its production. That wouldn’t happen until ZR1/ZR2 package was released. But it was essentially this SAME package, without the L88’s special induction hood and the full race 427; these goodies were specific to the L88 alone. By the way, when I use the term L88 it also INCLUDES the ZL1. Every ZL1 Corvette is an L88 as well; the L88 order ensured you of the accompanying racing package, the ZL1 is the aluminum engine case only. If you’ve ever seen ZL1 documentation (tank sheet, etc.) this point is clear.

The package was ordered not by a designation code but by simply ordering the RPO-L88 itself. You could walk into a parts department and buy the engine alone but you could not have the factory install it on any other car but the RPO-L88. Ordering RPO-L88 meant that you were required to take a full list of other RPOs and special items. The choice was not yours; Chevrolet would not sell you anything other than the full-race configuration car. It also meant there was a list of things that couldn’t be ordered. Check the box for a radio and your order would be discarded, literally. Want a fan shroud to help keep the engine temperature tolerable? Forget it, the car was meant for the track and the track only. If money was no object and you thought power steering would be nice… dream on; this beast was anything but nice. One basic version, few allowable variances… take it or leave it. And you might not get it even if you towed the line. It was rarely easy; it required patience and persistence.

In evaluating the “completeness” of the package I give little weight to whether or not the individual elements are made available elsewhere. It is not contingent on how exclusive the individual components are. Nor do I give credence to the fact that how it is broken down for clarity or pricing purposes dictates its completeness (let alone its actuality). Tallying individual specifics, especially on different models from different time periods runs the risk of the apples and oranges analogy.

You tell me the Z11 substituted many aluminum body parts for the Impala’s metal parts; I counter that the Corvette is an all-fiberglass –bodied car, designed specifically for its lightweight characteristics. Tell me that the Z11 came with wheels that were .5” wider than what was available on a standard Impala, a positive attribute for adding a bigger racing tire, granted. I counter that the L88 Corvette came with an even wider rim; no points should be lost because other Corvettes could be had with these wheels. The point is that the equipment that was supplied with EVERY L88 order was what Chevrolet thought was necessary for racing (and racing only).

It was the technical developments of the L88 program that dictated the overall refinements of America’ only sports car. The purpose of Corvette engineering was to reach the highest level of both style and performance. The Corvette wasn’t plucked from the economy level of the Chevrolet lineup and modified for occasional forays into off-road endeavors. The Vette was all about performance… going fast, taking corners and quickly stopping. So an argument can be made that every mechanical change the Corvette underwent was in order to upgrade its overall performance, even as far as its body style design. The styling change from the midyear cars to the C3s was as much for aerodynamic purposes as it was for aesthetic appeal. Talk about development with performance in mind!

Example: since the advent of fuel injection in 1957 every high performance engine in the Chevrolet lineup with the exception of the “W” 409 was for the most part a result of Corvette-based technologies; the top power-plants that wound up in the Impala/Chevelle/Camaro/Nova engine compartments were generally supplanted Corvette motors.

You would be hard-pressed to contend that the Z11 was in any way the pinnacle performance achievement of Chevrolet history. I wouldn’t make that claim about L88/ZL1. Time doesn’t stand still; it never has. Modern innovations, especially in the Corvette arena obviously surpass those from 40 years ago; the latest model Corvette or Camaro is just as eligible as someone’s choice as most significant and in that regard there’s merit in the claim that a new Z06 is inherently an all-around better performing car than anything from the ‘60s. Improvements have not always been linear with time; there have been peaks and valleys. One of those peaks for Chevrolet was 1969-1970. We all know the story: factors of environmental concerns, oil supplies, safety and insurance issues, etc. saw the sudden end of the “performance years” and a steady decline in horsepower ratings. True performance has since returned!

The Z11 is for me one of the hallmarks of Chevrolet performance history; definitely something on my “wish list” too. On a personal level, no car is more significant to me than my 1960 Chev Biscayne drag car, mine since I was too young to drive. I’d hardly expect it to receive another vote in this poll; that’s why I chose to instead cast a ballot for what I consider to be the most significant “performer” of the muscle years. L88/ZL1 Corvette was the apex of Chevrolet performance (made available to the public) during this time and for many years following.

I have been in discussion with the top levels of the NCRS, the Corvette Museum and General Motors about finally lifting this veil of mystery with respect to the package aspect of the L88. The NCRS judging manuals acknowledge this package aspect as do all leading experts in the L88 field. Much more needs to be done to get the word out to the general public, IMHO.

So Verne, I’m quite confident you will be able to see the L88/ZL1 Corvette was the whole package; this was the car that was culmination of Chevrolet’s racing involvement and evolvement. Nothing was held back; why would it have been? Each L88 was complete and race-ready as delivered from the factory; simply bolt on the available race exhaust system and your tires of choice and you’re ready to go, and go fast. The L88s were world-beaters, capable of speeds as high as 200MPH with the right axle ratio. And durable… you don’t win the 24 Hour Endurance Race at Le Mans or 12 Hours at Sebring in anything other than the epitome of performance excellence.

Conclusion: the RPO-Z11 and RPO-L88/ZL1… both FULL RACE-ENGINED and race packaged cars. Both extremely significant!

And with that said, here is the listing of the (’68-’69) L88 RACE PACKAGE:

MANDATORILY REQUIRED OR UNAVAILABLE OPTIONS/ITEMS:

(*) L88 only
• L88 Special 427 “blueprinted” engine (FULL RACE) *
• F41 Heavy-duty suspension
• G81 Posi-traction
• K66 T.I. Ignition
• M22 Heavy-duty 4-speed *
• J50 Power brakes (vacuum)
• J56 Racing brake system *
• Aluminum H.D. radiator *
• Dual-plate clutch *
• Special ducted fresh air hood *
• Rear end gear ratios from 2.73 to 4.56 *
• Fuel octane warning label (race gas only) *
• Optional ZL1 aluminum cylinder block and 8 sleeves *
• NO Radio
• NO fan shroud (w/4-speed)
• NO Power steering
• NO power windows
• NO Air conditioning

P.S. Come see for yourself this June 26-29, 2008

BLOOMINGTON GOLD L88 INVASION (hold on to your hats!)

[camarojoe]

Great post! I will admit, i never knew too much about L88 Corvettes but after reading all that i feel like an expert. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[LS6 RAT]

Your not correct on the dual plate clutch. The L-88 used a special 12.5 inch light weight flywheel and single 11 inch clutch disc.

[Canada George]

Rat,

My sources indicate that every 2nd design L88 and ZL1 Corvette came with the dual plate clutch. The information I was passing along was slightly condensed to give some general facts; not all info is entirely accurate for every incarnation of the car in its 3 year run.

As I said, I'm NOT the definitive authority; I just thought the package aspect was worth sharing.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[PhilS]

I'd say the L-88 is more fun to cruise at 150 mph. A set of 3.08s help of course.

[LS6 RAT]

L88vetteron,

The L-88/ZL-1's used a special clutch assembly with these part #'s flywheel 3866735, pressure plate assy 3886066 & clutch disc 3886059. Which is a single plate 10.4 inch, not the 11 inch I stated incorrectly above.

The MA-6 HD dual plate clutch design used two different set-ups one for 427 usage with L-71/L89 and one for 454 usage. '69 application was flywheel 3955151, pressure plate assy 3959175 & clutch discs 3959176.
'71 454 application was flywheel 3992094, pressure plate assy 3993814 & clutch discs 3993815.
There also was a special pressure plate for these dual plate clutches 3955148, this was a unique floater plate used with both dual plate clutch applications, 427 & 454. The flywheel differences are due to 427's being internally balanced and 454's being externally balanced. The clutch discs are also different due to the '69 discs using 10 spline thread and '71's using 26 spline thread.

[Verne_Frantz]

Ray,

Excellent post. I appreciate the time you put into it. Permit me to continue our discussion by addressing a few of your points.

You stated, “In evaluating the “completeness” of the package I give little weight to whether or not the individual elements are made available elsewhere.”

Also, “You tell me the Z11 substituted many aluminum body parts for the Impala’s metal parts; I counter that the Corvette is an all-fiberglass –bodied car, designed specifically for its lightweight characteristics. Tell me that the Z11 came with wheels that were .5” wider than what was available on a standard Impala, a positive attribute for adding a bigger racing tire, granted. I counter that the L88 Corvette came with an even wider rim; no points should be lost because other Corvettes could be had with these wheels. The point is that the equipment that was supplied with EVERY L88 order was what Chevrolet thought was necessary for racing (and racing only).”

These points are very true in the context that the L-88 Corvette was an end result of years of refining the car to be more race-ready. Since many of the components of the L-88 “package” were already designed and offered with other engines, the L-88 did not have to be designed from scratch with that new equipment in order to achieve the all-out race car that it was. My point has been that the Z-11 “package” was designed from scratch, all at one point in time, for the specific outcome of producing a race car. Chevrolet didn’t have to design lighter body panels or wider wheels for the Corvette, but they did decide to do that in order to make the Z-11 meet its design intention. I don’t know of Chevrolet ever putting that much effort into another specific-purpose car with so many unique parts.

“You would be hard-pressed to contend that the Z11 was in any way the pinnacle performance achievement of Chevrolet history.”

I would never try to argue that point about the Z-11. It was just what it was at that point in time. It was just the pinnacle of “W” power.

“I chose to instead cast a ballot for what I consider to be the most significant “performer” of the muscle years.”

There is no doubt in my mind that the L-88 is the stronger “performer” of the two. I think our positions are perfect examples of the fact (as stated earlier) that everyone’s definition of “significant” is based on different criteria. I agree with your conclusion, “the RPO-Z11 and RPO-L88/ZL1… both FULL RACE-ENGINED and race packaged cars. Both extremely significant!” 100%

I actually believe that Chevy’s engineers made some mistakes on the Z-11, and didn’t go as far as they could/should have, but that’s another story.

Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[1967Z28]

[ QUOTE ]
I actually believe that Chevy’s engineers made some mistakes on the Z-11, and didn’t go as far as they could/should have, but that’s another story.

Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


Verne,

I'd be very interested to hear your thoughts on how the Z11 might have been improved or further developed. Also, wasn't the total built actually 57 rather than 50?

Excellent arguments for both cars from both you and Ray. I don't see that anybody is wrong. It is too subjective to ever come up with a definitive answer.

-Jon

[Verne_Frantz]

Jon,

I guess this thread has strayed a bit, but then there haven't been any new votes for the most "significant" in a while, so I guess it's ok (right Charley? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif)

Regarding the 50 or 57 number, I know there have been MANY quotes by magazine writers, etc stating 57 was the number. Several people who have been digging into the history of those cars for many years believe the number is really 50. A production report issued by the Tonawanda engine plant (dated I believe July '63) lists production of total engine assemblies at 50. It lists other partial engines that were shipped, but only 50 complete units. I don't believe the Flint plant would have built a car from a partial engine plus the extra parts. They were not in the engine assembly business.

Now as to short-comings, I don't see any with the engines themselves. Raising the ports on the heads and using a 2-piece intake manifold was an engineering leap for that W design in '63. Along with pushrod guides and an aluminum water pump (which I forgot to add to the earlier list http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif), they made more milestones with that engine (surpassing any other Chevy design of the time).

The short-comings I see are subjective. I don't see that they did anything "wrong", but I feel they stopped short. It's as though all the engineers on the project wern't on the same page, all working toward the same goal.
For instance, they took the time to replace 2 grille brackets, that weighed a few ounces, with aluminum ones. They replaced a battery tray that weighs about 2 lbs with an aluminum one. But then they also designed an all-new air cleaner the size of a washing machine and built it in steel! They did not move to an aluminum radiator. I think more items could have been made of aluminum, but then, they might have learned an expensive lesson when they ruined a set of inner fender dies making the aluminum ones for '62.
The weakest point of a '63 passenger car was the rear axle assembly. Most other serious drag racers had already added a left upper rear control arm to control housing twist, but (again, contrary to rumor) they were not provided on the Z-11 Impalas.
A heater delete option was not part of the RPO Z-11 package. Someone just simply forgot......or thought they were also building a race car that could be driven to the store in the winter. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif It was up to the buyer to realize a heater was standard equipment on a '63 Impala, thus he should specify the delete option. There are several known Z-11s that were delivered with heaters.
And of course, they did not go to the extent that Ford or Mopar did with light doors, teeny seats or a trunk mounted battery.

All those subjective short-comings aside, I still believe the RPO Z-11 was Chevy's most serious attempt at building a complete race car bundled in one RPO, available to the public (although few), with such an assortment of unique equipment not available on other models. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

Verne :beers

[x Baldwin Motion]

Excellent info from both Verne and Ray! I will be going to the first cruisenight that I've been able to take my car in about three years!! Maybe a few Z11 and L88 owners will be there conversing on the significance of their vehicles and I'll chime in !!

Thanks Guys http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/youguysrock.gif

[Canada George]

Verne/LS6 Rat,

I appreciate your input. I take it from your agreement/lack of disagreement that there is consensus among us that the Z11 Impala, L88/ZL1 Corvette and ZR1/ZR2 Corvette were all factory-built “race-packaged” cars (among very few others).

My question to each of you and all others who care to respond is:

Would you agree that the Z11 Impala, the L88/ZL1 Corvette and ZL1 Camaro are the ONLY factory-built FULL-RACE engined cars made by Chevrolet and made available to the public, during the performance years?


(I don't think we need to worry that much about Charley allowing this slight veering from the original thread topic. He knows it's just too darn easy to post the http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/CharleySucks.gif icon whenever we want.)

By the way, http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/youguysrock.gif

[Verne_Frantz]

“…factory-built FULL-RACE engined cars made by Chevrolet and made available to the public, during the performance years?”

Ray, Now you’re making me think too hard. And I have this slight notion that you have a surprise in mind for us….

The following cars come into consideration:
’57 FI Corvette
’63 Z-06 Corvette
’65 Z-16
’67 Z-28
’69 ZL-1 Camaro
’70 LS-6 Chevelle
Cosworth Vega

While I believe all of those cars were capable of racing (and did) in various forms, I don’t think they fit your criteria. Each of them was available with a host of other options if desired and fully functional as a great street car. None of them required or included as many features, nor excluded other options as the cars you’ve listed.

I’ll wait to hear the opinions of others first, but I have this feeling you have a cat in the bag
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[SBR]

[ QUOTE ]
My vote is for the L88/ZL1 Corvettes. One RPO number assured you of a complete factory-built race car, an entire PACKAGE of mandatory components and unavailable items designed for and tested on the proving grounds of the world’s greatest racing circuits, Le Mans, Sebring, and Daytona.

L88/ZL1 Corvette… not simply Chevrolet’s pinnacled race gas-only fueled 560HP+ engine sitting in America’s great sports car; a top-of-the-line racing machine.

No other car mentioned in this poll could outperform these giants… in speed, handling, braking… PERFORMANCE and made available to the buying public.

That’s SIGNIFICANT.
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ] I have to agree, the white /blue 67 L88 conv. that raced at LeMans, Daytona, Sebring is my persoanl favorite. It still retains its original motor too. Anyone who is in the Chicago area during the last weekend of June should stop by the Bloomington Gold show to check out the L88 invasion. I am told that there will be 60 cars in attendance. I will be there with my red 69, stop by and say hello. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Verne_Frantz]

Ray,
It doesn't look like anyone else wants to venture a guess (answer) to your question. IF you have a surprise for us, please, unravel your sleeve! http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[ohhawk]

I think you would have to throw the following into the hunt as well........

http://www.57chevyblackwidow.com/guide.html

"most significant performance car" I think would have to be the Corvette. Maybe not always the fastest in a straight line from point A to B but performance is more than straight line speed. It still exists as an icon for performance after most have folded.

[Canada George]

Verne,

Nothing up my sleeve, I assure you! It’s not my intention to trick anybody.

Getting little response makes me think the question needs to be clarified. Either that or I really did load a cat in a bag (maybe to take it somewhere it doesn’t WANT to go?) http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif.

I believe it is widely accepted that Chevrolet in the ‘60s and early ‘70s produced a few levels of high-performance ENGINES. One level has been referred to as the “big block street high-performance” engines: the “solid-lifters”, L78/L72/LS6.

They also made available more highly-specialized, heavy-duty full-competition RACING engines. These motors were all high-compression (12:1+) requiring racing gas and otherwise designed and specified as off-road use only. This very short list includes the Z11 “W”427, the L88 and ZL1 427 and the LS7 454.

Does anyone know if there are any other Chevy power plants that would make this list and if so were they available factory-installed to the public?

If not (to reiterate):

Would you agree that the Z11 Impala, the L88/ZL1 Corvette and ZL1 Camaro are the ONLY factory-built FULL-RACE engined cars made by Chevrolet and made available to the public, during the performance years?

Any car that would measure up to this yardstick would surely qualify as a “significant” Chevrolet performance car, amongst the others already mentioned.

HAPPY MEMORIAL DAY TO OUR AMERICAN FRIENDS!
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif

[Stefano]

Monetary Value aside.

I would have to say for me personally it would have to be one of the Very first two "Nickey" Camaros which were built side by side, by Dick Harrell, at Nickey Chevrolet in 1966.

I believe these two cars to be the "First" L72 Camaro conversions. They were also the first 427 Super Stock Camaros built.

One For Mr. Bardahl and one for Mike Garfinkle.

Loads of special Technology and special parts from Bill Thomas Race Cars.

I would have to pic Mike's car as my preference of the two, since it later became known as the "First" Yenko Camaro and the "First Yenko sponsored Camaro race car, as well.

So the Nickey, Bill Thomas, Dick Harrell, Mike Garfinkle, Yenko, 1967 RS/SS Camaro Super Stock Race Car, would be my pick.

I was just looking over Grumpy's '67 Camaro this weekend and that would be a close number 2 pick.

Number three is a tie with another Nickey Camaro and the GM engineering built RS ZL1 Camaro, in Black and Gold.

JMHO