63 SS Nova COPO ???????

[JChlupsa]

http://www.autabuy.com/Vehicles/Details.cfm?VID=219809

[wheelhop]

Ah yes, the elusive 63 Nova C.O.P.O. !!! Dealer installed 283 gave it low 15 second times in the quarter mile.

[Schonyenko2]

I like the "frame off" restoration part. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[JoeC]

part of that is true that Chevy had a V8 Nova install kit available as a service/parts item.
It was designed by Bill Thomas
There was a nice 1963/64 magazine article on a 327 FI 4 speed install

[Paul_S]

Huh.... I'd really like to see the numbers and any documentation on this car. GM designed all the parts for a V-8 conversion in '62 along with heavy duty hubs and brakes. Bill Thomas used all GM parts in his build. The only thing he couldn't get was the Nova only block/engine assembly. He used a 'Vette FI 327 and modified the oil pan. As far as I know, you could get all over the counter to convert but not sure on the COPO thing... sounds like a stretch. It would be very interesting if it did have a conversion block in it but why leave the PG?

[92646]

This will be the first I have ever seen. A numbers matching 1963 COPO Nova with a 283 installed at the factory and a frame off restoration. These are pretty big claims I wonder what documentation he has to back it up. Is it safe to say that this COPO nova probally does not have the special Nova block and they had to use the powerglide trans because there are no provisions cast in for the clutch piviot?
Mark Sheppard

[Verne_Frantz]

Mark,
'63 283s were commonly available with 3-spds so the hole for the Z-bar pivot should be on all of them.
As for COPO, a look at the cowl tag should provide an answer.

Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[JayR]

Stevesnovasite had a pretty good discussion about this car when it appeared on Ebay in April with a BIN of $45,900!!! One of the members talked to the seller who had absolutely nothing in the way of proof to backup the COPO claim. The car was built in Oakland third week of March/63. The cowl tag shows the SS option, radio, driver door mirror and powerglide. The general consensus is that this is a real nice 63 Nova SS that, like many of these cars, had the six swapped out for a 283 V/8. There are frequent listings of 63 Chevy IIs purported to have the dealer installed V/8 and 4 speed conversion, however they all seem to be short on proof. These installs were more than half the price of the car, so there weren't many takers. Those that did must have been a little more than upset when the 283 introduced for the 64 Chevy II was only a $108 option plus $188 for a 4 speed.
Bob

[Verne_Frantz]

If it means anything, I have a copy of Chevrolet's production records for the '63 model year. According to those numbers, there were 3 Chevy-IIs built with a 283 V8, and ONE 4-spd.

Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[x Baldwin Motion]

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

http://www.autabuy.com/Photos/219809_1665370817351_Original.jpg



wait a second....one of three???

[Verne_Frantz]

Chris,
That is a real Chevy-II block (or at least pan), judging by the position of the dipstick.

Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[x Baldwin Motion]

Verne, I had three of those pans with the dipstick attached for the V8 conversion. I never claimed my conversion to be a COPO http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif.

If the literature says three were made, then it must be true... or not? If it is rarer then hens teeth and numbers matching they need to yank the master upgrade and correct the paint. I asked the seller for photos of TT and stamp pad. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[JayR]

The engine code is F0923DE. The DE is a Chevy II 283 V/8 w/Powerglide. My book says 1962. Anybody got any better info than this?
Bob

[Dog427435]

[ QUOTE ]
If it means anything, I have a copy of Chevrolet's production records for the '63 model year. According to those numbers, there were 3 Chevy-IIs built with a 283 V8, and ONE 4-spd.

Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[/ QUOTE ]



I show the same thing - 3 with 283 & 1 - 4 spd- but it does not show a model id number pertaining to this or an RPO number. How could you verify this as real?
COPO # would have to be on trim tag?

[Dog427435]

[ QUOTE ]
The engine code is F0923DE. The DE is a Chevy II 283 V/8 w/Powerglide. My book says 1962. Anybody got any better info than this?
Bob

[/ QUOTE ]

DE

All I can find:

'69 Camaro 307 - 4 spd
'69 Chevy II 307 - 4 spd
'69 Chevelle / Monte 307 - 4 spd
'67 Chevelle / Monte 283 P/G
'68 Chevelle / Monte 307 P/G

[JayR]

I have the info from the trim tag. What am I looking for?

Bob

[69 Post Sedan]

This is what I have found for a "DE" engine code.


RPO Year CID TRANS HP BODY
DE 1958 283 Powrglid, air susp - - - full size/Malibu
DE 1962 283 Powerglide, a/c - 195 - A X
DE 1968 307 man trans., 4 spd - 200 2 A F X


Kurt

[Paul_S]

DE is the correct code for Nova 283/PG for '64 but will have to verify for conversion suffix. I asked for block codes, casting #'s and data plate photo. Would like to see the casting date.

Verne, what production records are you seeing that? Could they just be engineering mules or what?

[Verne_Frantz]

I have a source that lists DE for Chevy-II '62-'64 283 with P/G. There's also a '67 Chevelle with 283 P/G & '68 Chevelle with 307 P/G.

As far as I know (and believe), my production numbers indicate production (shipped) vehicles, and not engineering mules. There is no reference to a V8 style number for the Chevy-II, nor an RPO for the V8 or 4-spd for the Chevy-II (as Dog stated). The only reference is found in the total engine production and transmission production listings by model.

Every other COPO I've documented in '63 was a full size car, and the cowl tag was either stamped COPO or F&SO (Fleet & Special Order) followed by the order #.

So, based on Chevrolet records, it seems possible for 3 to exist, but this car in question has no indication of being a COPO (IMO). But that doesn't mean that it couldn't be one of the 3.

If it's a Tonawanda block, and if it's a late '62 casting to correspond with the Sept assy date, it (more than likely) will have a Julian cast date, which will make it difficult to pin-point the year.

This car needs a solid paper trail to make it worth $30K more than it would otherwise be worth.

Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[PeteLeathersac]

Vin 304370141309

A Sept engine and March build....possible but doubtful?.

If the seller truly bought his own story, wouldn't you think he'd be happy to state how he arrived at such a conclusion also back up his claims w/ castings and stampings in the ad...not say 'he believes' and mention things like how it's been 'thoroughly inspected' (by his own people)?.

Also if truly belived, why goof it up w/ added accessories and disc brakes during resto?.

If he'd skipped the Copo story the car may've even sold by now...or reached more than the 20 thou it did on eBay?.

I vote http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif!!!

This gem aside, what year was the Copo process first known to have been used anyway?.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif
~ Pete

[Verne_Frantz]

[ QUOTE ]
I have the info from the trim tag. What am I looking for?

Bob

[/ QUOTE ]

JAYR, It would help to know the build date of the body (upper left hand corner) and a ACC codes.
Hopefully others who are inquiring will be able to provide casting # and date from the block.

Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Verne_Frantz]

[ QUOTE ]
Vin 304370141309

A Sept engine and March build....possible but doubtful?.

If the seller truly bought his own story, wouldn't you think he'd be happy to state how he arrived at such a conclusion also back up his claims w/ castings and stampings in the ad...not say 'he believes' and mention things like how it's been 'thoroughly inspected' (by his own people)?.

Also if truly belived, why goof it up w/ added accessories and disc brakes during resto?.

If he'd skipped the Copo story the car may've even sold by now...or reached more than the 20 thou it did on eBay?.

I vote http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif!!!

This gem aside, what year was the Copo process first known to have been used anyway?.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif
~ Pete

[/ QUOTE ]

Pete,
I agree; that VIN would be a mid-March Oakland build.
I have '58 COPOs on record. As for when they began that process, my files don't include any cars prior to '58..

Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hmmm.gif

BTW, The Oakland plant also built trucks that year, so there would be plenty of 283s around. It's doubtful a Sept engine would find it's way in a March car.

[Paul_S]

Well, Chevy II/Nova did not use style numbers to designate V8 cars until '65. If that is a Nova block it will be a flint casting/assembly. I have seen the RPO in the '63 assembly manual for V8s and yes, it lists 4-spd also. I don't remember it off the top of my head right now though. -I'll have to look. My bet is that it's just a very nice SS that had its L6 swapped for a '64 Nova 283. Any accessories listed on the data plate will not draw a conclusion to it being a V8 car unless it's coded for a 4-spd.

[wagonman]

[ QUOTE ]
Mark,
'63 283s were commonly available with 3-spds so the hole for the Z-bar pivot should be on all of them.
As for COPO, a look at the cowl tag should provide an answer.

Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

yes but a #194 casting early 63 nova 283 would have a chevyII specific clutch pivot hole location.............

all other 283 blocks are different!!!

[wagonman]

quite simply put..

there are zero 63 chevyII's with a factory installed V8

also vin's were not installed on 1963 chevyII power plants...

just engine suffix code and assy date...

[wagonman]

yeah......what frame?

[wagonman]

nice car though.................

[JayR]

[ QUOTE ]
JAYR, It would help to know the build date of the body (upper left hand corner) and a ACC codes.
Hopefully others who are inquiring will be able to provide casting # and date from the block.
Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Trim Tag Info:

03C

STYLE 63-0437 BODY OA15227

TRIM 7-702 13 PAINT 922

ACC W P X M35 2455

Bob

[x Baldwin Motion]

[ QUOTE ]
quite simply put..

there are zero 63 chevyII's with a factory installed V8

also vin's were not installed on 1963 chevyII power plants...

just engine suffix code and assy date...

[/ QUOTE ]


couldn't you get a trim tag and build sheet for this? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[Verne_Frantz]

Bob,
It is not common at all to see a number like the 2455 on the ACC line. It is not a typical cryptic option code. From my experience with these cars, I"d say that is a COPO or F&SO order number.

As I stated before, information compiled by CHEVROLET CORP indicates 3 V8 '63 Chevy-IIs were factory built. Those are real documents.

Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[wagonman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
quite simply put..

there are zero 63 chevyII's with a factory installed V8

also vin's were not installed on 1963 chevyII power plants...

just engine suffix code and assy date...

[/ QUOTE ]


couldn't you get a trim tag and build sheet for this? http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

sure could......

as a matter of fact,i even have the correct 3862194 casting number 283.this is a special chevyII only block!complete carb to pan! with all correct components.

rebuilt and ready to go........

hmmm......maybe put it in my 1963 ss convertible?

[wagonman]

As I stated before, information compiled by CHEVROLET CORP indicates 3 V8 '63 Chevy-IIs were factory built. Those are real documents.

Verne



would love to see these doc's......

does wayne bushey know about these three vehicles?

[Paul_S]

Verne,

Do these documents say anything else? -as to separating production by plant.

I don't have an issue with the Sept. assembled engine in a 03C car... these were not in full production. A short run of engines to fill the service demand and three factory builds.. you better believe their going to be sitting around for a while. Very low on the priority list compared to High volume $$ making production.

All of the Oakland data plates I've seen have a four digit code after the accessories. -not sure what it's for. Well, I've probably only seen 6 Oakland plates since most I see is Norwood. What happened to the Oakland plant after '63?

[x Baldwin Motion]

[ QUOTE ]
Bob,
It is not common at all to see a number like the 2455 on the ACC line. It is not a typical cryptic option code. From my experience with these cars, http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif I"d say that is a COPO or F&SO order number.

As I stated before, information compiled by CHEVROLET CORP indicates 3 V8 '63 Chevy-IIs were factory built. Those are real documents.

Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]


wow!! so this appears to be a REAL copo 63 nova SS http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif

[Dog427435]

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t114/dog427435/Super%20Chevy/Family/1-1.jpg
-
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t114/dog427435/Super%20Chevy/Family/2.jpg
-

[JayR]

[ QUOTE ]
Bob,
It is not common at all to see a number like the 2455 on the ACC line. It is not a typical cryptic option code. From my experience with these cars, I"d say that is a COPO or F&SO order number.

As I stated before, information compiled by CHEVROLET CORP indicates 3 V8 '63 Chevy-IIs were factory built. Those are real documents. Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Verne, I learned many years ago to 'never say never' when it comes to cars built in this era. It seems anything was possible. The production info showing 3 V/8 Chevy II's built in 1963 is very interesting. Thank you for posting it. This is new stuff to me.

As for the Oakland trim tags, I believe I've also seen others with 4 digit numbers on the ACC line. The Oakland tags were always somewhat different than other plants. Note on this car they used the normal accessory codes on the ACC line, but the actual M35 RPO number for the transmission.
Bob

[Paul_S]

Thanks for posting the production info.. yes, very interesting.

I believe this is the first Oakland tag I've seen with an RPO but maybe it's not uncommon for that plant.

[Verne_Frantz]

Well, I have to admit that I don't spend much time collecting info from Novas. It's very interesting that the 4 digit code is indeed common on them. The only such codes I've seen on full size cars were absolutely COPO or F&SO.

Thanks to Glenn for posting the Chevy documents. Those are the ones I was referring to that I have.
And no, they don't show any production totals by plant. Those were different forms and only showed monthly ending VINs, with no other information about the cars.

I also find it interesting that Oakland used both cryptic codes and RPO#s at the same time. No full size plant did that in the 58-64 time period.

Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[wagonman]

i will se wayne bushey in a few weeks.....i will definately bring this up.

a factory built 1963 nova! wow!

i would love to be the person to inform him on this,but i truly feel i'm not the one that should....

i'm just a student on this!!!!!!!

so i will go and stand in the corner now..... http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif


i am truly humbled at these docs....3 63 v8 novas built from the factory......

as mentioned from jayR in an earlier post"'never say never' when it comes to cars built in this era. It seems anything was possible."

how true that seems to be......

ok,

now it would be interesting to see the engine casting date,suffix code.ex manifolds casting dates.and see if they used a v8 version of the powerglide.one more forward clutch if my memory serves me.

[JayR]

Just polled a few owners of 63 Chevy II's built in Oakland. Seems they all had 4 digit numbers at the end of the ACC line, and all different. One owner said the dealer had the number from his car as the stock# on the sales agreement. It also seems transmission code M35 was the only actual RPO code they used on the cowl tag. All the rest are single letter codes. It may be of interest that Canadian built Chevy II's had the actual RPO codes on the cowl tag, sometimes including the engine. The ACC line on my L79 read M20L79A81. The A81 was the rare, bucket seat headrest option.

Bob

[x Baldwin Motion]

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q101/65z13/1963copoNovaSSTT.jpg


stevesnovasite thread on this copo 63 nova (http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92058&highlight=1963+copo+nova)

[wagonman]

[ QUOTE ]
Just polled a few owners of 63 Chevy II's built in Oakland. Seems they all had 4 digit numbers at the end of the ACC line, and all different. One owner said the dealer had the number from his car as the stock# on the sales agreement. It also seems transmission code M35 was the only actual RPO code they used on the cowl tag. All the rest are single letter codes. It may be of interest that Canadian built Chevy II's had the actual RPO codes on the cowl tag, sometimes including the engine. The ACC line on my L79 read M20L79A81. The A81 was the rare, bucket seat headrest option.

Bob

[/ QUOTE ]

here is the tag on my Oakland built 63 super sport factory Air car.....and it does not show a/c on the cowl tag....i purchase this car from the original owner in 1989 so i know it's indeed factory a/c.its a irmine white car originaly.much of the car is still original..

back seat
headliner
drive train
rear package tray cardboard
dashpad

etc...


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c74/1963wagonman/sherlock/100_5879.jpg

[JayR]

[ QUOTE ]
here is the tag on my Oakland built 63 super sport factory Air car.....and it does not show a/c on the cowl tag....i purchase this car from the original owner in 1989 so i know it's indeed factory a/c.its a irmine white car originaly.much of the car is still original..

back seat
headliner
drive train
rear package tray cardboard
dashpad

etc...

[/ QUOTE ]

My 63 Nova SS convertible also has factory a/c. It was built in Willow Run and doesn't have the a/c noted on the cowl tag, either. For whatever reason, you seldom see any factory a/c Chevy II's with the option noted on the cowl tag.
Bob

[wagonman]

good deal bob,

i also have a factory a/c 63ss covert.77k original miles. i know it may sound like bs but it's true. i have had that car since i was 9 years old!

my first car,and will be my last(i will be buried in it if i have the chance)met my wife with it when i was 18.she saw me driving around town for 3 years or so before we finally met. yes i was driving it before i was legally licenced.i was on a first name basis with pacifica's finest

givin to me by my dad..i know the vin number by heart!

[rafbody]

[ QUOTE ]
i know the vin number by heart!

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it just me or do a lot of us know our vin numbers by heart?

[wagonman]

[ QUOTE ]

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t114/dog427435/Super%20Chevy/Family/1-1.jpg
-
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t114/dog427435/Super%20Chevy/Family/2.jpg
-

[/ QUOTE ]



what exactly are these docs?

engine production numbers?

[Verne_Frantz]

Just read the first 6 lines of each page. It's perfectly clear what they are. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[wagonman]

can i edit the previous persons post....?

wagonman,yes these are engine production numbers as described..


oh ok then..

this really does'nt seem to be strong evidence that it ever made production in a vehicle.

these seem to be only engine production numbers not vehicle production...perhaps they were ordered for a dealer for a dealer install.perhaps bill thomas had something to do with this....

dealer installs did happen in late 62 early 63

[JChlupsa]

I would say they were made. Do you have totals of the other engines for 63 Chevy IIs and do they match the paperwork above? If they did I would say the 3 would be reconized as just what the the bottom of the page (2) states, Any Chevy IIs being assembled. Stranger things have happend such as only 1 68 Z28 Convertable

[Verne_Frantz]

The totals listed above are indeed for production vehicle installations. An example would be the 21,513 327 engines installed in Corvettes. That happens to be the total production of '63 Corvettes. Flint and Tonawanda engine production exceeds all the totals above by quite a bit.

Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif

[442w30]

[ QUOTE ]
Just read the first 6 lines of each page. It's perfectly clear what they are. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I inferred the question to say, "Are these pages what they purport to be? Or is it someone with a good dot matrix printer?" http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif

[PeteLeathersac]

The '63 Chevy-2 V8 production information is no doubt amazing on it's own but to be clear in what's been stated above, nothing has been substantiated to suggest the subject '63 Nova of this thread is one of the original V8 cars noted in the production documents..

To further clarify, Verne's mention of the 4 digit code indicating COPO or F&SO was in reference to what's been seen on full size cars only but reported to be common on tags of standard RPO equipped Oakland built Chevy 2's..

Also, of the V8 cars noted in the documents as produced, nothing presented indicates they were built as a Copo.. Could've been but we don't know this do we?.

Just thought it best these points were clearly understood before anyone considers the information here as substantiating the subject car seller's statements...or if this site and thread somehow end up being pointed out to justify these claims?.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/burnout.gif
~ Pete
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/youguysrock.gif

[x Baldwin Motion]

You're right Pete, I got overexcited thinking we may have a very rare find. Still no real proof this car is one of three. I did not mean to put Verne or his info on the spot. http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/flag.gif

[Verne_Frantz]

Good to hear the clarification. I think we're all on the same page now.

As to the production documents, they were compiled and published in the '80s. They were retyped but the data was taken from original Chevrolet records that the author obtained with Chevrolet's permission.

I didn't mean to upset anyone with my answers, and if I did I apologize. I just thought the titles of the pages made it very clear as to the meaning of the data.

Verne http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggthumpup.gif