Re: Meaning of "numbrs matching" opinions please
 

Too many people play with words to make you assume things that probably are not true. The simple question is: "Is this engine original to the car?" Nothing vague about that. When money is involved, beware.

Re: Meaning of "numbrs matching" opinions please
 

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#1. Numbers Matching should mean the #'s match, restamps, etc. but not original born with.
#2. Original Born With should be the proper term for components that match and are original and correct born with parts.

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end of thread right here guys...

numbers matching means just that, the numbers match. In no way does it dictate originality. Simple put, the numbers match. Original-born-with means the motor or trans or rear in the car, is the unit originally outfitted in the car.

Nicely put Stuart!

Re: Meaning of "numbrs matching" opinions please
 

Rick is right...it's not the Corvette guys fault...their just the first (and it seems the only ones) who were prepared to accept the fact that WE (as in car enthusiasts) created this situation by apply a much greater value to "matching numbers" cars. Naturally, those seeking to get greater value for their cars and, in some cases, those who simply didn't want to have their car looked down upon because the original motor was trashed like so many were back in the day, started "restoring the motor numbers just like any other part of the car. Originally, the Corvette guys (and I was one of them at the time - mid 90's) were on a mission to uncover any deception during the judging process and they were pretty succesful. However, the restampers got better and soon it was nearly impossible for even the most seasoned judge to call a restamped block. So, rather than fight something that they couldn't stop, they decided to accept the current state of the hobby and "allow" restamps for judging. The sad part of this is that the actual stamping on the engine block carries such little weight, that it really doesn't have a huge impact on the car's score.

Those struggling with the change in terminology need to just accept that this is where the hobby has come to, whether you like it or not, you or I won't change it! Kinda like the whole "clone" or "re-creation" thing. In the '70's when I was a teen, we put SS hoods and emblems on any plain Jane Camaro or Chevelle we bought - everyone did! We openly called them "fake SS's" and no one thought anything about it since we really didn't know how to tell a real car from a fake anyway https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif I still hate the "clone" term, but the reality is that it takes some of the deception out of building a fake and maybe it's better to at least call a spade a spade and accept that it happens.

I'm not ready to restamp a motor personally yet, but I would consider buying a car with a restamped motor if it was disclosed and well done. Frankly, after the recent threads here and on Team Camaro regarding this, I think the Corvette guys are smarter than we give them credit for...you seldom see a restamp or motor bashing thread on the Corvette boards any more. Yesterday, I decided that I will never "guarantee" another motor etc. to be original becuase it's just not worth the BS that follows as you try and "prove" it to people that have no interest in buying a the car in the first place! Look at the BS that Jerry MacNeish is having piled on him for "certifying" the Green Z at Legendary...the comments being thrown at him are simply not fair and it sickens me to see how negative the hobby has become.

Re: Meaning of "numbrs matching" opinions please
 

Rick,

Your "numbers matching" inquiry is tough to answer easily. My opinion is that there are only 3 items that can be considered numbers matching. This assumes that what we are "matching" is the VIN plate designation to the cylinder case, transmission case and frame/unibody that contains the VIN or a partial derivative of it.
Another argument can be said, about the Protect-0-plate metal card that contains the assembly stampings, and that the engine, transmission and rear axle can all be "matched" to the POP.
Beyond this, I would say all other components could be properly dated for the build of the vehicle, or contain the proper casting numbers associated with the inventory of parts used to build this specific vehicle and its options.

Re: Meaning of "numbrs matching" opinions please
 

Semantics and date coded parts aside,a car is only original once.CE blocks get about the same respect as cars without paperwork it seems.What about the member with the 67Z for sale who wanted some opinions on his motors originality? It's been pretty much validated on here by some of the foremost authorities as the one it came down the line with,and still there are a few conspiracy theorists. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: Meaning of "numbrs matching" opinions please
 

perhaps some of us miss the best part of the hobby being caught up in the "numbers game"...

are we hesitant to even drive and enjoy our precious investment grade muscle cars??

what if we lose the original born with block because of an over-rev or missed shift?

i guess then we have to keep a non-numbers block in the car to drive and keep the born with block stored away for safe keeping...

or maybe a camaro we can flog without remorse when we feel the need and our original born with drive train car safe at home in its environmentally stable storage facility

there will be a day when we all wish we had spent a little more time with the pedal down and a little less time crawling under cars with a flash light checking numbers..


jmo https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif

Re: Meaning of "numbrs matching" opinions please
 

For years I have felt the statement "matching numbers" when used in an advertisement means pretty much NOTHING other than the vin number that appears on the block matches the vin number of the car. I have looked at cars advertised as "matching numbers" where the casting date of the block is months past the build date of the car, or the block has even been the wrong casting.

Re: Meaning of "numbrs matching" opinions please
 

I am going to classify my understanding of a Matching numbers car, as one that does have the born with drivetrain.
If you have a replacement block or trans that don't have the VIN of the car that they are in, you don't have numbers that match. Some numbers will match, but not all of them. I guess that you could say that I have a car with partial matching numbers if you wanted to be 100% correct with your statement. Different VIN's on the car and block aren't matching no matter how you look at it. Yes, you can replace items such as manifolds, carbs, distributers with ones that are numbered and dated correctly, but those items don't have the VIN stamped on them, and there is no way to prove that they have been replaced to begin with. I agree that certain people have distorted the true meaning of matching numbers to accomidate what they are trying to sell, or what they have. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

Re: Meaning of "numbrs matching" opinions please
 

[ QUOTE ]
perhaps some of us miss the best part of the hobby being caught up in the "numbers game"...

are we hesitant to even drive and enjoy our precious investment grade muscle cars??

what if we lose the original born with block because of an over-rev or missed shift?

i guess then we have to keep a non-numbers block in the car to drive and keep the born with block stored away for safe keeping...

or maybe a camaro we can flog without remorse when we feel the need and our original born with drive train car safe at home in its environmentally stable storage facility

there will be a day when we all wish we had spent a little more time with the pedal down and a little less time crawling under cars with a flash light checking numbers..


jmo https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif

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All valid points.Everyone is entitled to enjoy their car a they see fit- it's an elective decision.For some the joy is driving the car for what it was designed for,others it's the preservation and historical significance.Some of these high end cars are iconic,so yes perhaps the days of "enjoying them" in the dynamic sense has passed due to the risk.Obviously the attrition rate for motors was very high during the first years of ownership,because just about everyone drove theirs like the stole it.You can't have that missed up(or down) shift back any more than those docs that got thrown away during the Nixon administration.Once it's gone,that element of the cars history is permanent.

So yes,it's probably a good idea if you do have a high end collectible,like to drive your car in spirited fashion,and are lucky enough to still have the "born in driveline" it's makes both financial and common sense to put that motor aside in favor of one you're categorically less likely to lose sleep over if you pop it.I think to a degree some of these cars are the baton we carry as they change from owner to owner through time,couldn't even imagine how bad the feeling would risking damaging the car after so many years of prior discilpined ownership.

Re: Meaning of "Numbers matching" opinions please
 

over at "home" we have this discussion about yearly.

Last year, it was pretty easily accepted that #'s matching meant the car carried the (vin stamped) block it left the factory with, "Date Correct" meant the original engine was long gone, but the car had been put back together with parts that "could have" been in it originally. CE Blocks, as warranty replacments, are almost numbers matching, and perhaps are if the paperwork detailing the replacement survived.

restamps were NOTHING MORE THAN FRAUD.

This year, that definition seems to be changing for many, particularly those who make money buying selling or restoring cars.

Frankly, I can't stand it. There is one and only one numbers matching engine for each and every Chevy that left the factory with the partial vin stamped on the engine block.

If you want a "numbers matching" car, get another car.

That said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a well done date correct restoration. It will always be "not quite numbers matching" but many of these cars led hard lives, that's not unexpected and doesn't take away too much.

To dilute an absolute term in the name of dollars is unconscionable