Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

For your information Jason, I did have the opportunity to buy this car as several people did. I knew the scoop on this car long befory bergy did and had the opportunity to buy it. No negativity, just facts. Car is a rebody no matter how you slice and dice it.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

BTW, what exactly do you meen the VIN from the donor body needs to be cleaned up? Not sure what you meen by that.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

If anyone knows any details about this car - tell us more! Everyone in the community would be interested in hearing about it. I'm not one to make stuff up - I'm just posting what the car reveals upon close inspection. This car even has a 13/16 sway bar that's been in place for a long time. - I can't get photobucket to poat pics for some reason, but I'll be happy to send them to someone for posting. Also, it has a Yenko dash cluster that has the SW tach holes still in it - obviously very old drill holes with part of the impression from the SW base. I'm not an expert like many of you, but I have owned a few copos so I know my way around a little bit.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

I think I have said enough. The car simply does not have the important items that one would look for in an original COPO car. Car may have a couple of bolt on items from the original car but thats about it.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Come on Tom - there's no need to be so mysterious. Why end the discussion with "said enough"? If there is more data to put on the record, please add it. If you go down the copo check list - this car is just missing the firewall attributes. All that I'm saying is, why in the world would someone rebody a Yenko using a totaled (with a swarn certified statement) body? If you're hesitant to discuss this within the parameters of this forum, you can PM me. These cars are too important to dismiss so cavalierly.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

I have said all there is to say. No cowl induction piercing, no mounting holes for the relay, no hidden vins to match the Yenko vin in the dash, no 427/425, no original muncie, no BE, no cowl tag, etc. I think that its absolutely clear as to what the car is and Im not sure I can lend anymore info. It is what it is, a rebody. Nothing more nothing less. As long as it is represented as such, I see no issue. It may have a dash cluster and a subframe from an original car but thats about it. Hardly enough to make a real Yenko from. If you want others peoples opinion as to what the car is, just ask. Not being elusive or cavalier, just stating the facts. So, just state the car is a rebody and move on.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

I think that I'm beginning to agree with Jason - if it's OK with you Tom, I'll continue to pursue the car's history and complete my due dilligence. I will have a complete, continual ownership record of the car (Yenko) from new I'll let the whole community know what I find out and back it up with photographs, names and sworn statements. It's way too early to put this to bed.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Good luck to you bergy...

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Interesting discussion indeed. This will follow the ongoing dispute as that what is a rebody and what is original. At what point does a car lose its original identity? What key components does it take to still retain this identity and what reasonable exceptions can be made to allow the car to retain its original personality.

I think each car needs to be looked at based on its own merits. For example, with this car if you have the whole history on the car and one of the previous owners will provide a statement that the car was wrecked and the firewall was replaced in my opinion I would still consider this a genuine car. If it was found to be that the vin was just transferred over to a completely different complete body than I would say it has lost its identity.

This is like ZL1 #61 - didnt that car have a completely replaced cowl, firewall and lower firewall without matching hidden vins but still wears the original vin? Isn't there a credible and documented history to back this and therefore the car can still be considered genuine?

Lets all let history tell the story and set the stage for this one. With only 200 original Yenko cars - even the mere fragment of one deserves to have every avenue explored and be given the utmost possible consideration to be reconstructed.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

First off, I don't know the history of this car. That said, why do you think the original Yenko was wrecked. It is just as possible that the firewall was cut out for racing, etc. Yes, it is also just as possible that the original car was rotting in a field somewhere and the VIN was yanked and put on another shell. But, if the latter was the case, why would they make a Z/28 clone out of the car. It is my hypothesis that the car was raced, the firewall cut out, the Yenko identity was lost and it was repaired with another firewall for street use. Again, only a hypothesis.


Jason

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

I obviously don't have the answers yet, but everything points to a firewall repair in my mind. I was very encouraged when I discovered that the firewall came from a car that was totaled (from the rear) by a logging truck. Then I asked - why would someone re-body a car onto a totaled body? Anyway, it will be interesting to find out and I'll keep everyone up to date!......to be continued.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: COPO140</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have said all there is to say. No cowl induction piercing, no mounting holes for the relay, no hidden vins to match the Yenko vin in the dash, no 427/425, no original muncie, no BE, no cowl tag, etc. I think that its absolutely clear as to what the car is and Im not sure I can lend anymore info. It is what it is, a rebody. Nothing more nothing less. As long as it is represented as such, I see no issue. It may have a dash cluster and a subframe from an original car but thats about it. Hardly enough to make a real Yenko from. If you want others peoples opinion as to what the car is, just ask. Not being elusive or cavalier, just stating the facts. So, just state the car is a rebody and move on. </div></div>

I would have to agree with the statements made by COPO140, and I don't know him from 'Adam'. I can't think of a story, or history that will un-rebody this car. Apparently, the rebody aspect was known by prominent folks in the hobby at least 10-12 years ago. Had I been one of them, I certainly would not have searched so hard for this car myself - if I had found it, I would have run for the hills!

Bergy, I'm stunned to read your post about '... its just missing some firewall details...' Those 'details' should not be deemed trivial or inconsequential!

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

wow, that is all I have to say ... [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]

this is some pi**ing match

not sure why, but it is interesting to read about these &quot;opinions&quot;

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Bergy, the rebody history seems to be verifiable and well documented based on several posts in this thread. I would suggest that rather than attempting to legitimize the car, research the history, and obtain affidavits from those responsible for the &quot;cowl only scenario&quot; as you suggest. Possibly they have picture of the whole process. I would then present those facts if available and start the discussion from there. I think we are beating a dead horse at this point, unless new information is obtained.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: talwell</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

This is like ZL1 #61 - didnt that car have a completely replaced cowl, firewall and lower firewall without matching hidden vins but still wears the original vin? Isn't there a credible and documented history to back this and therefore the car can still be considered genuine?

</div></div>

Agreed. I also fully believe that if someone else (read as a more frequent poster) bought the car, then they would be encouraged and not bashed.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

If I had the car I would strip it down to a bare shell and have a true expert in body restorastion come and evaluate it. There is a huge difference in #'s experts and body experts. This way you can fully document what was done to fix the firewall. It will be easy to tell where they seamed the firewall in.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

No matter what... the car should be saved. It is a piece of yenko history. I am of the personal belief that the numbers are what make a car... not the body. To each his own opinion.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fast67VelleN2O</div><div class="ubbcode-body">No matter what... the car should be saved. It is a piece of yenko history. I am of the personal belief that the numbers are what make a car... not the body. To each his own opinion. </div></div>


Seriously, your criteria is that a VIN makes a car???

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Steve - I'm not sure how you are concluding that the &quot;rebody history is verifiable and well documented&quot;. Where exactly is that documentation? As far as I know, the only issue ever documented is that the wrong body stamp is definitely on the cowl (I haven't removed the fender and heater box yet). It is also verifiable that the vin stamp on the cowl belongs to a car the was totaled from the rear by a logging truck in 1981 (sworn statement from owner). Who rebodies a car onto a totaled body?

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: paceme</div><div class="ubbcode-body">


Seriously, your criteria is that a VIN makes a car??? </div></div>

The original vin and the original cowl tag is what makes a car. These numbers were affixed to a body that ALL cars received whether or not it was a 6 cylinder no option car or a ZL1 Camaro. The numbers and the cowl tag is what makes the body different than the next car. In my opinion, there is no difference in replacing every single body panel on a rusty car other than where the vin number is affixed than it is taking the numbers and placing them on a different rust free body. This is my opinion on the &quot;rebody&quot; issue. I am not trying to argue my views with anyone, just expressing them.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Marlin - I'm generally a pretty patient guy. I can't understand why you and others insist that a full rebody is well documentd by prominent people. If that's the case - why doesn't some prominent person present the case? I'm dealing in facts - the vin on the cowl is from a totaled car. This car has perfect frame rails and it is not a restored underbody. How do the prominent people explain that? I'm just a hobbiest who enjoys documenting and restoring these wonderful pieces of history. Can we just agree to leave our minds open until the research is complete? If the prominent people want to close the books on this one - please have them present real data - not platitudes.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Laying all emotion and opinions a side, need to look at this from the legal standpoint.

A car’s legal VIN number is what is stamped in the metal, not the VIN plate, thus you have a legit ’69 Camaro Z-clone without a title..

The stampings carry all of the weight with law enforcement, and were stamped for a very good reason, because VIN plates can be easily removed.

If the VIN does not come up in the police data base, might be able to a title for the clone Z.

Next you have a VIN plate with a title that belongs to another car, not the clone Z. At any point in time, if someone comes up with the original body with VIN stampings, they can claim the VIN tag and title because legally they own the car that the VIN tag belongs to. That is what would concern me, spending money to restore the car then lose the tag.

Most times, when a car is rebodied, the person doing the rebody owns both the donor car and the recipient car, where the only issue is the rebody, not ownership.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Tom - that must mean the the ZL1 (that has been discussed on this site) that has no stamp in the metal is not a legal car! I don't agree - someone did a great deal of research and proved that the body with the cut up cowl was the ZL1 car. Again, you are assuming that the &quot;original body&quot; is out there some where. Why do you reject the possibility of this body being the original body with a replaced cowl section without having any knowledge of this car. No one disputes the fact that the cowl stamp car was a total loss in 1982. Please understand that, if I just want a Yenko, I can certainly go out and buy one. The realy fun part of this hobby for me is the intrigue of the research. Many of you walked through that experience with me on this site (the burnish brown RS COPO). There were even some people on this site who helped me a great deal in the search. That's great community. We should cheer each other on - not reach conclusions before that facts are all in. I'm just a simple hobbiest - this isn't my living and I very seldom sell any of my cars. I don't make money on cars. I enjoy the meticulous search to find old owners and the stories of these great cars. I've done it enough times to know that conclusions shouldn't be made until all of the facts (in the form of sworn statements from previous owners) are in. I have a complete, sworn history of the burnish brown car including the experiences that each owner had with the car. That's my passion. As far as I know, none of the &quot;experts&quot; have even spoken to the Yenko owners of 30 and 40 years ago. That's what I love and it's what I will do for this car.
Just think of this Tom - if I went out to my garage and removed the passenger fender and looked under the heater box, and found the Yenko vin stamped in that area - would it make any difference?

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Just think of this Tom - if I went out to my garage and removed the passenger fender and looked under the heater box, and found the Yenko vin stamped in that area - would it make any difference? </div></div>

IMO, would make a very big difference.

I am not assuming anything, as I have no idea if the original body is out there or not, I just wanted to add the legal aspects of the case, which are based on previous such cases.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Thanks for having an open mind Tom - most people would probably go right out in the garage and tear the fender off! Frankly, it makes little difference to me without ownership history and sworn statements as to what happened with this car. Restorers can do amazing things when starting with very little (sometimes nothing!). If I can't get ownership history and the sworn explanation of what a car has been through - I'm not interested. People can make up paperwork, create cars out of nothing, etc., but when past owners put their reputation (and liability) on the line by making sworn statements - it's pretty compelling. Heck, there are people who would look at a Yenko vin stamp in the heater area and just say &quot;so? - it's just a bunch of bolt on parts and conflicting stamps&quot;. Documenting what happened is everything to me on this car.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sYc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Laying all emotion and opinions a side, need to look at this from the legal standpoint.

A car’s legal VIN number is what is stamped in the metal, not the VIN plate, thus you have a legit ’69 Camaro Z-clone without a title..

The stampings carry all of the weight with law enforcement, and were stamped for a very good reason, because VIN plates can be easily removed.

If the VIN does not come up in the police data base, might be able to a title for the clone Z.

Next you have a VIN plate with a title that belongs to another car, not the clone Z. <span style="font-weight: bold">At any point in time, if someone comes up with the original body with VIN stampings, they can claim the VIN tag and title because legally they own the car that the VIN tag belongs to.</span> That is what would concern me, spending money to restore the car then lose the tag.

Most times, when a car is rebodied, the person doing the rebody owns both the donor car and the recipient car, where the only issue is the rebody, not ownership.
</div></div>

This is very true, and literally happened right here in PA just a few short years ago. A guy now has a nice looking Yenko Camaro, (albeit a rebody), with a repop TT, a restamped firewall, and no VIN plate because the guy with the original body trumped!

Bergy, I'm not trying to try your patience, nor do I consider you a rookie in this hobby - you've been around a while! But, the way you packaged your purchase and plans brings de ja vu to many of us. The recollection that the firewall in the car is from another car wrecked by a logging truck is interesting, but does nothing to prove/disprove this car as a rebody. When someone is offered a Yenko in an envelope, and then it shows up a few years later as a full blown car - without the TT and the firewall stampings, it screams rebody (and a lousy one at that!).

If you think there is a story in that car, break it down, blast the body, look for the rebody vs. original body and go from there. I would love to be wrong on this one, even it is a definite rebody - I'd still save the thing, just need to call it like it is.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

We're starting to talk past each other Marlin. I've said over and over that documented, sworn, ownership history is everything to me. We have all seen the unfortunate progression of ever improving fakes in our beloved hobby (documents and entire cars faked). Improvements in technique will continue, but continuous ownership history that is sworn and verifiable is difficult or impossible to fake. Just a rookie suggestion, but you folks may want to start a public Yenko record that mimics the Shelby Registry. I can look up my Cobra in the registry and see the complete ownership history. If a car doesn't have ownership history in the registry (or just &quot;appears&quot;), no one is interested in it. The public registry really enhances the value of good cars. There are some pretty prominant people in the Shelby Registry who don't seem to worry much about the privacy issue.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Steve - I'm not sure how you are concluding that the &quot;rebody history is verifiable and well documented&quot;. Where exactly is that documentation? As far as I know, the only issue ever documented is that the wrong body stamp is definitely on the cowl (I haven't removed the fender and heater box yet). It is also verifiable that the vin stamp on the cowl belongs to a car the was totaled from the rear by a logging truck in 1981 (sworn statement from owner). Who rebodies a car onto a totaled body? </div></div>

Why not quote my whole statement &quot;I would suggest that rather than attempting to legitimize the car, research the history, and obtain affidavits from those responsible for the &quot;cowl only scenario&quot; as you suggest. Possibly they have picture of the whole process. I would then present those facts if available and start the discussion from there. I think we are beating a dead horse at this point, unless new information is obtained&quot;.

If it were me I would have ripped the fender off, verified the VIN before I bought it. Its quite simple and it would put this issue to bed. Lets get it done and good luck.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Shouldn't there be a hidden VIN on the top side of the cowl besides the one under the heater box?
I have no dog in the fight. I hope you have what you believe you have.
It would be interesting to see some pics of how the area was put in. If you know what your looking at/for, you can get a pretty good idea if it was done due to a collision, or another reason.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Who woke up Schone ? The one on the top of the cowl is different than the Yenko Vin tag that the car has.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Since the whole cowl/firewall part has been replaced the hidden stamp under the heatercover probably has the same number as the one under the cowl.

I guess the car had rusted under the windscreen and they got this totaled body to take fresh metal out of. Easiest way of repair it would be to cut all off and weld another piece back on.

Bergy, go on with your detective work, I agree with you, it is an important part of our hobby to dig out old info about cars.

Jan

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

I don't want to talk past anyone, but I see one sig difference: I don't put as much stock in 'sworn statements, affidavits, etc..' Heck, Joel Rosen sends out all kinds of paper! So, I generally look to the car to tell the story. An older, poorly done rebody like this one is not really hiding anything. It should be easy to figure out what happened once you get it apart.

The Shelby Registry is indeed a pretty good idea. I know that Tom explained that concept to a bunch of us several years ago. Not sure anyone wants to put up with the initial fallout though. Still a valid method, I would support it.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The realy fun part of this hobby for me is the intrigue of the research. Many of you walked through that experience with me on this site (the burnish brown RS COPO). There were even some people on this site who helped me a great deal in the search. That's great community. We should cheer each other on - not reach conclusions before that facts are all in. I'm just a simple hobbiest - this isn't my living and I very seldom sell any of my cars. I don't make money on cars. I enjoy the meticulous search to find old owners and the stories of these great cars. I've done it enough times to know that conclusions shouldn't be made until all of the facts (in the form of sworn statements from previous owners) are in. I have a complete, sworn history of the burnish brown car including the experiences that each owner had with the car. That's my passion. As far as I know, none of the &quot;experts&quot; have even spoken to the Yenko owners of 30 and 40 years ago. That's what I love and it's what I will do for this car. </div></div>

Well said. I would likely have purchased the car as well. Dumb? Depends on your perspective, but I also get a kick out of the detective work. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Good luck,

Scott

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

I found back on page 4 where he states it needs to get the Vin cleared up on the cowl area, and that there is a lot of welding in that area. My bad. It sounded in other posts as though it was more of the frt of the firewall.
Pics would be interesting.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Marlin - just one question - have you even ever seen this car?

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Just one answer - nope! This car was for sale in an envelope 10-12 years ago. I don't need to see it.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

this reminds me of a certain green 1969 RS Z28 that was made up from removed VIN numbers and great paperwork a few years ago ...

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Very true, it happens more than we all realize.

Honestly, I hope I'm wrong and this car finds its original f/wall, or the correct stamps are found on the same f/wall, or the other car is still floating, or monkeys fly out of my.... well, maybe not the last one! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img]

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Marlin - You could save me a lot of work by supplying dates, names, etc. for the envelope story. Would that contradict the spirit of this forum? Aren't we all car guys who support the hobby? You'll note that I'm telling nothing but what I know first hand about this car - no second/third hand B.S. If that story were true, was someone simply saying that they would be willing to remove the vin from this car and sell it with the title (very illegal)? I have the list of titled owners - let's track down the story - tell us what you know specifically. I'm really after the truth and maybe you can help.

Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
 

Jim - That's the very reason that a continuous chain of owners and statements of condition, originality, etc. is soooo critical to the pedigree of a car. Everything else can be made up, but owners with phone numbers (so that you can talk to them and/or their heirs) and sworn statements are hard to fake.