Re: ZL1 #9 Barrett Jackson - Where's Waldo
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mockingbird812</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow, tuff crowd. I don't know George but some of you really seem to have it in for him. I still stand by my first post in this thread. George made it quite clear that he used another body on this car due to its race history. Don't think George has to do anything to his listing. If you are a potential buyer give him a call if you are not sure if it is a rebody! </div></div>

Sam...Wouldn't you agree that it would make things much simpler, cleaner and most of the arguing would go away if he would just use &quot;Rebody&quot; in the description ? George did not use another body. Floyd Garrett did and he calls it a &quot;Rebody&quot; It is not &quot;quite clear&quot; until it is called a &quot;Rebody&quot; When it is marketed as a &quot;Rebody&quot; I'm sure we will all be rooting for George to hit a homerun.

Re: ZL1 #9 Barrett Jackson - Where's Waldo
 

Charley - you are correct in that I mistakenly stated that &quot;<span style="font-style: italic">George</span> made it clear that <span style="font-style: italic">he</span> used another body...&quot; In my mind, George's use of terms regarding another body being used in the restoration are clear enough to me, that an average Joe would understand that this car does NOT have its original body. There is a relatively fine line between mincing words and telling the truth particularly when it comes to these high end cars (i.e. does numbers matching = original engine in our hobby?). IMO, George has not crossed into the realm of mincing words, he has merely used another selection of words to describe his car as not having been restored with the original body.

For the record: my comments are only pertaining to this thread.

Re: ZL1 #9 Barrett Jackson - Where's Waldo
 

I agree that the term &quot;rebody&quot; would be more accurate when that is what happened, so why not state it exactly as that?

On another note, why, <span style="font-size: 11pt"><span style="font-weight: bold">when properly disclosed</span></span>, is this (and to open another Pandora's box), are clones such a big deal?

The ZL-1, COPOs, and Z/28's etc. were just Camaro options, not specific cars hand-built or even have boxed sections like the torque boxes on Hemi cars. All they did was add options to a regular Camaro coming down the line, right? The options were only add-ons and could have been added to any 6 cylinder Grandma-spec Camaro on the line, no?

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/hmmm.gif[/img]

Re: ZL1 #9 Barrett Jackson - Where's Waldo
 

This is not a discussion against George.

However, the main point is getting very diluted.

His first post regarding this ZL1 basically told us that he had researched and inspected the car and that 'basically&quot; it had no issues, and that it was NOT a rebody. &quot;The real Body&quot; are his words.

There are many here who knew and were told different, either directly or indirectly by Floyd Garret.

Then once questions were asked, we were told that all the info would be disclosed here, as well as properly represented at auction.

This discussion is taking place <span style="font-weight: bold">PRIOR</span> to the car going across the block and ownership changing hands.

Re: ZL1 #9 Barrett Jackson - Where's Waldo
 

Originally Posted By: mockingbird812Wow, tuff crowd. I don't know George but some of you really seem to have it in for him. I still stand by my first post in this thread. George made it quite clear that he used another body on this car due to its race history. Don't think George has to do anything to his listing. If you are a potential buyer give him a call if you are not sure if it is a rebody!

Sam...Wouldn't you agree that it would make things much simpler, cleaner and most of the arguing would go away if he would just use &quot;Rebody&quot; in the description ? George did not use another body. Floyd Garrett did and he calls it a &quot;Rebody&quot; It is not &quot;quite clear&quot; until it is called a &quot;Rebody&quot; When it is marketed as a &quot;Rebody&quot; I'm sure we will all be rooting for George to hit a homerun.


Not in reference to Georges car.......But....It seems a lot of cars in the past had their descriptions put together by Lawyers.......After you read it, you still didn't have a clear concise interpitation of what was being said......Like the 1966 Nickey Nova from a couple of years ago that (according to the factory window sticker) had 15&quot; tires from the factory and the &quot;Factory&quot; Nickey option.....LOL

Re: ZL1 #9 Barrett Jackson - Where's Waldo
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mockingbird812</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Wow, tuff crowd. I don't know George but some of you really seem to have it in for him. I still stand by my first post in this thread. George made it quite clear that he used another body on this car due to its race history. Don't think George has to do anything to his listing. If you are a potential buyer give him a call if you are not sure if it is a rebody! </div></div>

Hey Sam, just for clarification, George’s first post specifically stated the car was not a rebody and he had done extensive research to come to that conclusion. It was only through the efforts of this site (at this point we may be beating a dead horse) and the many posts which initiated the change in description. Some will argue the description is not clear enough now, but it should be very clear to everyone reading the many posts that it is a rebody. Again if it were not for this site and the threads/posts that have followed we may not have found out the extent of the &quot;restoration&quot;. George was concise, clear and convinced of what the car was initially; as well as very convincing. It is interesting how very clear it was made in the post below that the car was NOT a rebody or half clip. Why not make the new findings clear that in fact its a rebody now?

This is his first post selling and promoting the car:

&quot;Greetings All ! I have made the decision to consign my ZL1 to the January auction and would like the members to know my intentions and what I know of this car. It is #9 of the 69 produced, Fred Gibb car, Silver/Black Automatic. Outstanding very high quality restoration completed in the mid 90's, looks to have many excellent NOS pieces and a goal of assembly line correctness except for way over GM quality paint. <span style="font-weight: bold">I have spent much time researching this car to be able to represent it honestly.</span> I will specify a few points of importance but I welcome any inquires prior to the sale and I will gladly share all I have.
1. A real car with clear owner history from new, I have tracked it myself.
2. The real body, NOS quarters &amp; wheelhouses replaced from Drag mods.
3. A real ZL1 motor, NOT the original to the car.
4. Mechanically sorted by me, runs &amp; drives as it should.
5. Previously done Cunneen Report, very concise, very positive opinion.
6. Car did sell in 2006 at auction for over $450,000. Not relevant today.
7. Car needs NOTHING, killer just refreshed condition, appears as new restoration.
And let me clear up one thing before question arises: Yes, this is the car that was in a fire in the Midwest years ago. Building burned, car had damage but mostly cosmetic, paint etc. <span style="font-weight: bold">Car did NOT get &quot;clipped&quot; or rebodied, it got re-restored </span>and photos of building and car are available. <span style="font-weight: bold">Believe me, I did my research prior to writing my check I assure you.</span>So there you have it. Price ???? Who knows, we shall see. My gut is when the quality of this car is viewed it will do all a ZL1 is worth. This is a GOOD car.
Don't hesitate to contact me if you have interest or questions.
Thank You,
George Lyons
Erie, PA
814-450-0926&quot;

Re: ZL1 #9 Barrett Jackson - Where's Waldo
 

----Im pretty darn sure you guys wont have George around here to bring all this stuff up to anymore. Take your problems up with him at B-J if you are so inclined......Bill S

Re: ZL1 #9 Barrett Jackson - Where's Waldo
 

Nothing else worthwhile is being said here. If George or someone with something constructive to says needs it unlocked they can contact me.

George says he has pictures that show details that he says he will display at the auction but not show here. Maybe it will prove his case, maybe it won't. The only reason I can think of that he won't post them here is because it won't prove his case. I hope it does but in the mean time I will make these threads &quot;sticky&quot; so they stay visible in the forums. I was informed this morning Jan 12 that local ads today don't even include the body shell disclosure.

“A GM factory-assembled body shell was used to correct the extensive body modifications performed during this car's long-term drag-race history”
It’s like Fonzie trying to say “wrong” - just say rebody.
https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Even...ARO-ZL1-271809

The phrase "GM factory-assembled...." seems to me to try to add some GM corporate level legitimacy or authorization to the rebody. It's not what you say, but how you say it.

Lovely discussion, but nothing that hasn't been beat to death here before.
Two observations: Please stop with the spelling out of the word quote. There is a "key" on
every keyboard that serves this purpose. (Yes, I have a degree in English).
Second, is there a good way to say "donor" body vs. Dynacorn repop body? The English
language is famous for finding ways to say "powerful organic substance" instead of "bullshit".

Some reason quote gets spelled when the old messages are used in the newer messages. It does make it hard to read.

I myself don’t care if it’s rebodied, as long as the original drivetrain parts are there. To me, if the car was missing the drivetrain, it’s not worth the same. JMHO.

IMO if the VIN on the dash don't match the hidden VIN the car is a fraud and should receive a new government issued VIN as a reconstructed vehicle. You can't stop someone from grafting an original firewall to a donor body but at least make that much effort. IMO if the original firewall is gone the car no longer exists.

-

I’m of the complete Opposite opinion to this one, NO Rebody of any kind wanted here but an Indisputable Original 9560/9561 car w/ Missing Drivetrain would be a dream come true!
Replacement Drivetrain would be correct but NO Restamps…bring on the Real L78’s/Z28’s too!
:beers:
~ Pete

.

I would rather have a "real" car missing its original drivetrain than a rebody with a numbers drivetrain. IMWO a rebody is a clone with a drivetrain and a vin swap.

Rebodied cars are fake. If I put a rusted out Typhoon VIN on a 4x4 Jimmy, I got a fake Typhoon.

I’m not sure I’d consider a rebody (I’m talking a bonafide, legitimate, documented job) a clone. Is a rebody as good as an original? Of course not, but it sure is better (in my opinion) than taking a 123 (6cyl) and stuffing in an OTC ZL-1 and calling it a ZL-1. I firmly believe there is a market for a person who isn’t terribly wealthy or hasn’t hit the PowerBall to possibly own a ZL-1, or a ‘68 Hemi Dart, or something of the like. Let’s face it, the cars we are discussing were built to be raced, not pampered…they were never intended to be treated as jewelry. If changing the tub is the only way to save a rare car, then as long as it’s not done with malicious intent, and is fully disclosed, I’m OK with it. Now, I’ll play the Devil’s advocate…is it OK to knowingly misrepresent a rebody as the real thing years later and after some of the informed may have passed or retired from the hobby? No, and I say prosecute the perpetrator to the fullest extent possible.

So just how much of a car's original body shell must remain in order to say the car isn't a rebody? If someone restored a car using only the original cowl and firewall (thus never separating the VIN tag from the hidden VIN) and grafting it onto the original unrestored body of a car that was built in the same week on the same assembly line would that be o.k.?

It's pretty simple to me. Just disclose exactly what was done to the car and let prospective buyers decide for themselves what it is. This is possible where builders and or restores are still around. In cases where they are not then inspection by a reputable person(s) maybe the only way.

People keeping registries on high end significant cars can add notes into those registries to outline what has been done and when.

Interesting thread. I have a few questions, that basically ask for opinions on this whole subject. I was always under the impression that a "re-body" meant (on 1st gen Camaros for example), that the vin tag, and cowl tag was removed and installed on another, better condition body, for restoration purposes. I imagine even the partial VINs on the cowl and behind the heater are changed as well.

This of course has been discussed, debating the legality of it, because most states prohibit "any" tampering with VINs on any vehicle.... (stolen cars and parts worries).

Now, reading this thread, it seems that others consider a re-body any time even "most" of the body shell is used. But where is the line drawn?

What if you have a valuable COPO involved in a major crash, say t boned, or high speed crash into a pole sideways, or roll over crash. Rocker panels, floor, A pillars, roof, rear quarters,..etc,...all crushed beyond repair? Now, instead of gathering aftermarket parts, or paying through the roof for NOS parts, if you could find them,....you find a really nice Camaro with solid floors, rockers, quarters,.....etc,...and you decide to use all of this donor car, except for the firewall and cowl? What's the difference between removing all those original panels one by one and replacing everything separately, to the existing firewall, or attaching all those part complete in car form, to the existing firewall?

I don't know why people get fixated on "where is the line". The line for you or the line for me maybe at different spots. The important thing is disclosure for what was truely done to car in it's restoration. No half baked words like a GM body was used. Just spill the beans and be honest. Honesty is what builds reputations.

The great thing about this site is the knowledge people have in recognizing fakes. If I ever had the money to buy a high end car rest assure I would be sending a few PM's to a few people here if they willing to help me.

Frank I agree, I'd assume some guys on here know about the restoration of this car and could elaborate. I assume by the comments I've read that another body was used. I know of other cars are are rebodies.

I'd hardly call myself "fixated" on it but, never the less, my "line" so to speak is, I lean toward being more "ok" with a body swap if ...

1. Indeed all or most of the parts would need replacing with new or used parts anyway, (and a factory built body is often built better than a body shop built body)...

and 2. I'd prefer the original firewall and dash/cowl sections be transferred to the donor body, maybe it's just me but separating the VIN and cowl tags from the original and installing on another body, meaning two cars and two VINs and cowl tags are being tampered with,..just screams crooked, deceiving and/or illegal to me, whether it's disclosed or not.

ZL1 #9 Barrett Jackson - Where's Waldo
 

" I'd prefer the original firewall and dash/cowl sections be transferred to the donor body, maybe it's just me but separating the VIN and cowl tags from the original and installing on another body, meaning two cars and two VINs and cowl tags are being tampered with,..just screams crooked, deceiving and/or illegal to me, whether it's disclosed or not.

And this is not crooked? No, it's illegal and a federal crime. Bill

From what I gather from your reply, you are stating whether someone removes two sets on VIN tags and cowl tags and installs the COPO ones on the donor, or someone removes the entire firewall and cowl/dash section and transfers it to a donor, they are both illegal and a federal crime? Then why is this story about #9 COPO being debated about, and the only thing being discussed is whether or not the re-body is being disclosed to the potential buyers, and how the wording is shady,.......shouldn't the crime be what's being discussed?

ZL1 #9 Barrett Jackson - Where's Waldo
 

Being a licensed Rebuilder and Parts Recycler in the State of Illinois for the last 37 years, it is my understanding that taking vin tags and or sections of a vehicles body containing vin tags and installing them on another body is Illegal and a federal crime, but I am no lawyer so to get a true read on the subject someone with a law degree will have to respond to this. I am sure there are a few lawyers in our Yenko.net family so I hope one will give us their professional opinion on the matter to set the record straight. Bill

I could be wrong, I believe it may be illegal to simply be in possession of a loose Vin tag in some states.

A few years back there was someone selling all the critical parts to build a COPO car. The seller was selling the entire firewall cut at the toe boards and A-pillars with title for 10 grand and the numbers matching block for another 10 grand. He had the critical numbers covered up so the car couldn't be black listed in the future. My guess is that the car has been resurrected by now.

There is what is personally acceptable, as everyone has their own line in the sand and budget. For those of us that need to cross a border into another country like Canada from the USA where the vehicle needs to be exported from the States then imported into Canada (and duty and taxes paid), the line is much clearer. I have driven 6 hours one way, found the car to be rebodied, and drove home. Despite how the vehicle might look or cost, the decision is made by my inability to export the car due to customs regulations.

Thanks for the reply Bill. I too have been in the auto body business for 42 years, an auto painter by trade, I have been running the two shops I have worked at longer than I was the painter in each. That's why red flags fly up every time VINs are discussed. I have seen, just during out of state VIN checks being done for care sales, them get denied or impounded.

Perhaps that's why initially, the statement that "A GM factory assembled body shell was used to correct the extensive body modifications performed during this cars long term drag race history" was used,....so legal implications for re-bodying a car would be avoided. But later on, the statement was made, "Prior to yesterday I had finished my signage for B-J with a clear disclosure of the body replacement done by Floyd."

Seems to me everyone up in arms about this car are just concerned with the wording of the description, and whether or not potential buyers know it was re-bodied or not, and no one is concerned that re-bodying a car might well be completely illegal.

Careful wording = Trying to avoid future legal issues.

When did Floyd Garrett restore this car, in the 80s?

Depends on what state and year the rebody was done. Some states did and may still do, allow that IF both vehicles are registered to the same person and the body is used to restore one of them, it is allowed. I had a '67 Camaro that was a combination mutt out of TX about 15 years ago and I talked to their DMV and they were fine with it. I had figured out the original vin of the vehicle and gave her both and she said they had both been registered to the same person and she didn't view the tag swap as malicious or to deceive, which it seriously did but she didn't see it that way. I then called the NICB and asked them about it and the guy said they don't agree with the Texas perception of the law, but once a body/tag has been swapped and the vehicle given a clean TX title, there isn't anything they can do about it.

Not if you are a Licensed Rebuilder or Parts Recycler in the State of Illinois as long as you have the Title to support said Vin Tag and it is listed in you SOS Log Book. On anther note, the only one who can be in possession of a Salvage Title in the State of Illinois is an Insurance company, a Licensed Rebuilder, Parts Recycler or a Dealer. Bill

Brought 495k after the commission, that's a lot of money for a rebodied car!

But it sold for half price!

During earlier auctioned off Frank Tiegs cars,specifically the '64 T-Bolt,the '68 Shelby GT500KR,and the '70 Boss 429,Steve Davis broke in and said,"During the restoration of this car,a decision was made to use a Donor Body".
Steve even went so far as to say during the '64 T-bolt description,this is a"Re-Body".
..But when Franks' #9 ZL-1 Camaro came up,not one whisper of a Donor Body or Re-body was uttered by Steve or anyone over the PA.

I noticed that too! Also, remember Craig Jackson's commentary (recorded) about the Tiegs collection prior to the auction ... the #9 ZL-1 has "the original motor".


So, according to Barret Jackson ... this is an original body, original motor car. "One of the finest in existence" (Cunneen report).

Any idea what the seller would net out of that 495k?

"To sell a vehicle at Barrett-Jackson,the seller is responsible for paying the entry fee (based on the time of day of the auction and the lot number),and a seller's commission of 8% off the hammer price.
The buyer pays a 10% buyer's premium on the Hammer price."

So #9 Hammered at 450k,-8% (36k),the seller goes home with 414K.