Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I am not up on Pontiac history but you can look at the way Chevy and Olds handled the special factory hot rods. The factory wanted to race but was restricted by upper management rules. They needed to find ways to sneak out factory built cars to meet NHRA rules. Chevy made deals with Fred Gibb and Yenko to process the factory built cars that would meet the NHRA ruled 50 car minimum requirement. Olds built 455 cu in cars that they were not supposed to build and sent them to Hurst to process them. I would guess that Pontiac would have done something with Royal but if they built the 50 cars to race in NHRA then it would be documented. I would be surprised if Pontiac did not build some special cars for in house testing but it is hard to say if any cars escaped the factory. I remember reading an article about a prototype 69 Trans Am with a special de stroked engine and the car was allowed to be road tested by a magazine but don't know what happened to it after that.

DaJudge-- the intake is some type of drag racing fuel injection system made by ALGON with some home made parts to adapt the air filters

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Personally, I doubt they ever built a factory RA V, but Chevrolet has proven to us to never say never. I'd like to see some definitive paperwork.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

To Jim M.
I'd like to apologies for any phone calls that you may be receiving regarding this thread and Garys car.
J.Y.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Ordinarily, I'd start off by posting, "I'm pretty much a lurker here. I know the Clarys from the PS races and appreciate the time and effort they've put into this site. I can also appreciate the intellectual and anthropological manner in which the COPOs are handled, which is often missed on other sites."

However . . .

[ QUOTE ]
Someone posted "talk is cheap." How cheap? $5000 cheap? Or would you like to go more?

I will send my end to Charlie, Belair, or Sixtiesmuscle whenever. Who's on?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't even have $5000 in liquid assets. But your attitude reeks; while yours is still flapping in the wind, my pants are still zipped. Thanks for the grin. Be sure to let me know when Jim gives you the bad news. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I doubt they ever built a factory RA V, but Chevrolet has proven to us to never say never. I'd like to see some definitive paperwork.

[/ QUOTE ]

As with all makes, of course.

I know of a L78 4-door. Didn't make one? What if it was a cop car?

Fact is that the L78 was built for "normal" cars, so there's always that possibility. The RAV was never available installed in a car, so the possibility for that is less.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Guys,

Pontiac "never" built a Ram Air V GTO at the factory!!!

Jim Mattison
Pontiac Historic Services

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Thank you Jim.. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Jim,
Amazing how you managed to put up this post while we were discussing this on the phone, must have a hands free head set eh? So now that the question has been laid to rest I assume all bets are off? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Motown [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/haha.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif[/img]THERE YOU HAVE IT!! I GUESS I WONT BE GETTING THAT IVORY BACK SCRATCHER AFTERALL [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif[/img] ON THAT NOTE, THERES A GUY IN JERSEY WHO SAYS HE HAS A 69 YENKO CHEVELLE WITH AN L88 IN IT. WHAT DO YOU THINK? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Thanks Jim. Now who was going to send me 5 grand to hold??

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

No No...send it to me...I need to put a 4 speed in my COPOC Chevelle.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Belloc,
Never heard of a COPOC Chevelle--is it a Terrestrial design???

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

It's a very rare model Joe.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

You guys.......Geez, got to tell you everything....
COPO has always been the abrieviation for COPOC, which stands for Central Office Production Order Car! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Some people think the "C" on the end stands for Camaro, Chevelle, or Corvette, but that would not work as a Nova would have become a "Cova", and certainly Marlin would have put a stop to that! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Motown [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

[ QUOTE ]
[img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif[/img]THERE YOU HAVE IT!! I GUESS I WONT BE GETTING THAT IVORY BACK SCRATCHER AFTERALL [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif[/img] ON THAT NOTE, THERES A GUY IN JERSEY WHO SAYS HE HAS A 69 YENKO CHEVELLE WITH AN L88 IN IT. WHAT DO YOU THINK? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you need to find your caps lock button and release it. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

MY COMPUTER IS MISSING THAT KEY [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

then tape the 'shift' button down..... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Jim

Where is your proof this car was not assembled in engineering, there is only evidence to support it was. Your opinion is mere speculation, not fact. All supporting paper documentation on the car points to it's authenticity, not against it. This car is the most important un-acknowledged piece of Pontiac History. As with Astock, I have touched this car with my hands and seen it with my eyes. It's not just another myth that some one stuck a crate motor in. If the correct research is done on this vehicle, the truth of when and where the RAV motor came to be in the engine cradle can be verified. Since we have all been told that it never happened from the factory; told for years by all the "experts", does that make it a fact? Would proving the car is real be too much pride to swallow? My opinion does not make the car real either, and if it's proven not to be authentic I will apologize. The nature of this car should be proven, not talked about.

Sincerely, Steve Hoog

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

April 1973---

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

article piece---

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

rest of article--

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Don't get me wrong it would be very [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] if one was assembled in the factory---I hope your search proves everyone wrong--JoeG

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Here we go again with this magical gto.show us the phs or a build sheet and lets put it to rest! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif[/img] i would also like to have all the date codes off the block,heads,intake ,carb,and distributor and lets not forget the exhaust manifolds! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Don

I do hope that the owner will oblige the board and public in general with your request, I know he is watching this with interest.

In the mean time and article from Smoke Signal in 99 after an interview with one of the Knafel's.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

And turn the page.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

The "MEMO" car is interesting. I think Chevy used it also. There was a COPO 68 4-door Impala 396 cop car at Carlisle with gauge dash and 140 speedo. Upper right corner of trim tag was stamped "MEMO"

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

The owner has allowed me to post the PHS, sweet........

First a couple of things: If you will review Pete McCarthy's words of wisdom concerning SD cars in his book, I believe you will find he points out they were listed as "memo" and "spec equip". My copy is at work, so I can't verify that %100.

Second: Bill Knafel has stated that all cars delivered to him back door from The Hobby Shop (Pontiac Engineering/Racing), were delivered with headers. This doesn't have any bearing on proof, but the owner wanted me to mention it. Don't let the pricing on the PHS throw you off in your conclusion.

Now the VIN has been sprayed out at the owners request. He has much more on the car, hopefully he will respond soon.

Steve

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Steve, im glad you posted the build sheet. this is not the first time ive seen memo on build sheets. i keep copys of all phs docs of all gto's and judges i come across and i have a few phs docs with memo on it on non ram air cars. But i do understand its an interesting fact! special equip can also mean headers in the trunk. I think if the car was a true ra v car, there would not be raiv on the phs,check this with jim. even on copo cars the build sheet would not list both engines. And if they did ever put a ra v in a gto, [which would be like a ZL1] you would think the price of it on the phs would be more like 3000.00 like the ZL1.If you want i'll try to post the phs docs i got..... [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I had a long conversation with Jim on the phone concerning this thread last night, he indicated to me that he was aware of this very car in Tulsa Ok., and that it was not assembled at the factory with the V engine. I see today from the one article that the car is in Tulsa(or was) so I am certain he knows which car this is. I am not saying one way or the other on this, only what I was told. Jim is very busy at the moment or more input may have already been posted, but in my opinion if the owner of the company called Pontiac Historical Services makes a statement concerning a vintage Pontiac, and I might add a very adamant statement, I would have to go with what he knows. Jim is a walking history book on these cars, I cant see a opinion coming from him in A public forum concerning any car unless he was absolutly certain. Pontiac is not the only division who had "Memo" on their build sheets, that could mean about anything in the way of special equip. These rarities are explained by the experts in the field, Jim being that person for Pontiac, even what was done in engineering is no secret to the experts in the field. Example; the one and only 68 Z ragtop, yes it was built into a Z on the assembly line, however, the cross ram and rear disc was done in engineering. This is knowledge that Jim and his friends and coworkers shared with all the cars owners, including the present. he would know if the car was assembled in engineering, which even if it was that is not a factory built assembly line car, it really would make it no different then a dealer assembled car, as with the one in question.
Thanks,
Motown [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Motown amen [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]
Special equip could mean a lot of deferent things on the PHS it shows ram IV
I would think a Ram air v run a little more than $ 105.00
This debate will go on forever I have heard the same thing about factory built Buick stage II. Pontiac RAM V and Buick stage II was never Build at the factory I could see a dealer Order special equip and the factory put ram v equip in the trunk for the dealer to install But not at $105.00 Jim is the expert and has spent a lot of time getting the facts and has nothing to gain to say that this car is not a factory ram v

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Well said! [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/scholar.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/worship.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Kind of like a factory built LS7 car. Each division has its top of the line, all out racing setup that never became a production option. I think we'd like to see proof of each of these being built, but it would have to be very definitive proof. IMO, "spec perf" could mean anything, but with the RAIV engine designation I can't see it referring to a different engine upgrade.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

My Knafel "Tin Indian" RA IV Judge was shipped eight days before the car in question. The dealer invoice shows exactly the same items except for the turbo/hydro & console. Wouldn't the early, November 15, ship date exclude the possibility of a RA V anyway? When was that engine announced?

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I work GM dealership, back door deals still go on to this very day. Last year as a perk to our dealership (and a couple of others around the country) GM released several engines VIA backdoor including one of the all so awesome LT5 Corvette motors made in Stillwater Oklahoma, every single nut bolt and wire ready to run drop in out of the crate. There was NO "NON" NO official paper work that went through invoicing, this is approximately a $10,000 dollar engine. Why is it so hard to believe that a RAV engine couldn't have been installed back in 1970 with minimal notation on a PHS? Bill Knafel's explanation for the "memo" price being low was because the RAIV motor was never really put in the car, so the amount of "memo" was on top of the RAIV billing to somewhat compensate for the overall price tag. Out of the ordinary billings occur to this day in the GM arena, they call them policy adjustments. I submit to the boards viewers this was one of those policy adjustments. SD cars are accepted as factory produced cars, correct? If this car was built under similar circumstances, can it be accepted as a factory built car? To me, when they roll off the transport from GM they are a factory car. Bill Knafel has made an official statement this is the case with this Judge, that it came from engineering with this motor in it off the transport. Does anyone in here know who Bill is? And will back up his word?

Literally everyone on this board has mentioned some story they are aware of that is out of the ordinary. A great quote some one made on a previous page, "never say never".

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I am fascinated with the blue and white Tin Indian, I love that car and have posted several pics on our dealership web sight of that car. Bill has stated that several of the RAV cars came to his dealership, do you also have the "memo" on your invoice? Can you post it? The RAV over the counter sales started in 69, so I don't think the 8 day difference would be a factor.

Again I love this blue and white car!!!
Some old race stuff if your interested.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

"Bill Knafel has made an official statement this is the case with this Judge, that it came from engineering with this motor in it off the transport." I would like to believe that this stuff happened very much on the Sly and would venture a Guess it would be done under the Radar enough so People like Jim Mattison and others would not notice. How it gets proven I don't know but I kinda agree with never say never.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

Where's Astock? [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Now that things have turned a bit friendlier . . . could the car have been delivered with a RAV? Possibly. But, if so, chances are the car was created with an RPO engine and then the RAV substituted. But I don't know why that would be. After all, if the RAV was available over the counter, wouldn't Knafel be able to do it themselves?

For now, factory documentation is the only proof. Till there is some other proof, I won't believe it. I don't understand why some are believing the speculation when if the same thing was said about a COPO, proof would be expected.

Also, there are some in the Pontiac community who don't always lend creedence to what Jim Wangers or the Knafels have to say. There's some good insight, but it is not always gospel.

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

When I heard Jim M's post, I was actually relieved knowing that I had given the car away. Then I thought back to what the Knafels had told me, how they were 100% positive that the car was delivered to them with a RA V engine. I also recall how excited I heard they were about this car surfacing. Why would they have been so excited about a mere RA IV car. How many RA IV cars do you think went through their dealership along with all of the other significant cars? What would they possibly have to gain by making this claim?

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

I will not say that it is not possible that the V engine was installed at enginneering, that could mean anything from at the research and development department to the proving grounds. Charlies post lends credence to this. Did the car travel down the assembly line with the V engine? Not likely. The build sheet shows the IV, which is therefore what would have been installed as it traveled down the line. It appears possibly both sides may be correct here, it was NOT a factory installed engine, but it MAY have been delivered to the dealer with it installed. A similar case exists in the Ford collector car community, the 1970 Boss 302 Mustang with AC. After much debate and research by many it seems the AC was installed by Ford enginneering. People are on both sides of the fence as to if the car is a factory build or not, with an engineering altered or assembled car I would have to say no, for if the cars that come from the engineering department become factory built that would mean every one off prototype built by every automaker would then have to be considered a "Factory Build", which is just not the case. In the case the engine was installed by Pontiac engineering that does indeed make it a unique car, but in the abcense of documentation to support where and when and by whom it was installed it lives as a IV car with a V engine installed along the way by someone. Aside from all of that it is still a very neat car, many of the current Supercars were dealer assembled and stand at the top of the hobby today. This becomes a case of wording and interpretation, the words "Original", "Factory", "#s Matching", all have to be used in the correct context with this car. If everyone decides they dont want it due to the debates I would be more then happy to give it a home.
Thanks,
Motown [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]

Re: 1970 gto judge ram air IV
 

This is an interesting post,maybe i can add to it.I am friends with ASTOCK,and Bill Knafel,both are straight up guys.I too have seen this car,it is very interesting,and i wished i would have bought it.Anyways,Knafel did get some very special stuff,and alot of it is still around. In 64 my father ordered an aluminum hood for his 64 gto,it took a while,but it did come in,how many other dealors could have gotton this? Around 1989 i went to look at a distributor machine that was in the newspaper for sale,laying next to the machine on a shelf,was a complete Ram Air 5 top end,heads,intake,factory numbered Holley carb,RA 5 Dist(TI)With the oe red cap,camshaft,and FACTORY GTO EXHAUST MANIFOLDS!The guy that owned this stuff was a farmer,who bought the parts of a guy that owned a towing company,he had all the parts on o 66 Bonneville,except the exhaust manifolds,which would not fit the B-body chassis,but they were on a car at some point!The guy that owned the bonne died,and nobody knew where he got the parts from,could they have been off this Judge? Who knows.I did buy the parts,and built a 69 gto around them,actually showed it at POCI,and the GTO Nats.So could this Judge have been built in engineering with a 5 motor,maybe,these parts came from somewhere,and until 1990 had been in Akron the whole time!