Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

The Yellow Duece that has appeared on E-Bay on several occassions is the one I think you mean. It is in very rough shape, and has never sold through E-Bay or after the ad was finished - Owner wanted to much.

Blair

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Gotcha!

The Sun Yellow car is almost unrestorable in my book, but another guy has a legitimate idea on how to do it without having it collapse. So, no assumptions on it's possibilities https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Do you have any pictures of that car you can post?, if the owner was more resonable with his price even i would be interested. (yellow is my fovorite color to).

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

As someone who PARTED OUT an Original 69 ZL-1 Camaro, I'm following this thread.........and yes today, THAT same ZL-1 with the ONLY Original born with piece being the VIN tag and otherwise TOTALLY fabricated from other 69 Camaro parts lives on, WITH certification.

Chuck

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Chuck, The question on that car would be was certification done knowing the car was a rebody? If so did the Certification indicate so? Where it gets messy is when you take a $20K car and put a $200K VIN plate on the car and sell it for $250K+ and try to pass it off as one.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Not a direct followup to the previous post but why do people think that removal of the hidden VIN while making repairs is fraudulent or illegal? There are hidden VINs on many car parts. You are allowed to replace these areas of the car while making repairs.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Removal of the Hidden/Partial VINs is not illegal, Removing the VIN Plate itself and re-installing it on another car is.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Lets take this one step forward. What if someone simply buys the trim and VIN tags only through the mail, no sheetmetal, nothing, attaches these tags to another car, the car gets a certificate, and it sells for big bucks?

Who is at fault? If anyone? Is it buyer beware? IMO, <font color="red"> no </font> but??? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

It all seems so simple and straight forward.

You find a super valuable piece (exa. COPO, L88, etc.), but, it needs some or most of its original body replaced. It is documented, has the original drivetrain and a known history. If you considered parting it out because it would need a re-body, you should seriously consider having your head examined. Thing is, you wouldn't want to use some aftermarket panels, you would scour the planet for either NOS or excellent used original pieces. If you had to cut out some super secret # and weld it in, sure, do it. Make it indistinguishable from original. During your ownership, it would be at your discretion to let anybody know (or not). But when it comes time to sell, there is only ONE correct thing to do, disclose it.

As for buying just a trim tag and documentation, well, go for it. Do it right, but, when it comes time to sell, same rule applies, you gotta be honest.

That's the way I see it. My L88 had (has) a hit motor in it. So what, the original only lasted a short time. The buyer was told, in no uncertain terms, it is a re-stamp. I still got a boatload of big green daddyoes for it. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Regards,

Mark Donnally

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

[ QUOTE ]
Removal of the Hidden/Partial VINs is not illegal, Removing the VIN Plate itself and re-installing it on another car is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for restating current state of the law to the above people. I can't stress this enough: There is NO recognozed exception to the illegality of removing a VIN tag from one car and attaching it to another. Period!

If you remove the VIN tag from a car during its restoration and then reattach that same tag to the same car it came off of, that is not a crime; that is a repair.

The issue of certification as an original COPO or any other vehicle is irrelevent to the fact that the car is now illegal in the eyes of the law.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

That being the law, illegal cars are out there. I guess if found out the car would be impounded, correct Steve?

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Great thread going here! . So when is replacing enough metal that includes the Vin tag itself enough to "blur" the line of tag re &amp; re....a whole cowl maybe or just enough to not disturb the rivets? . And is removal and replacement of metal like a hidden Vin and surrounding metal considered illegal? . Like a few guys have noted, whatever is considered legal or not is a different situation than Copo certification or values. . Again if the whole history of what's been done is open knowledge and or part of a sales contract, at least there's not intent to defraud. ~ Pete

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do it right, but, when it comes time to sell, same rule applies, you gotta be honest.


[/ QUOTE ]
That means someone having something rebodied would disclose it and take a ton less money for the car...in muscle cars I don't think we are seeing the honesty factor kicking in....should we somehow miraculously get all people to disclose this stuff what would the difference in value be ? Should there be a difference in value ? When a car gets the rebody name associated with it people seem to stay away from them...if the same car was disclosed will it be easier to sell ? Obviously people in the musclecar world would prefer NOT to buy a rebodied car and thats why these things stay "secret". For the most part you only "heard" that this car or that car was rebodied or firewalled or whatever...people aren't slapping signs on them proudly proclaiming that heritage yet.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

If all people were honest it would, in fact, be a miracle. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

So, if an original ZL1 Camaro is discovered and it needs extensive sheet metal, people will 'stay away from it' or 'it will be worth a ton less money'? That doesn't seem reasonable to me, but, I am not as tuned in to these cars as well as most here. Is it really documented that rare cars (i. e. COPO Camaro's) that are the 'Real Deal' that need sheet metal are not desireable? If a COPO that is all original brings 200G's, one that has a beautiful resto using some donor sheet metal is worth what? Both have the original drive train and are documented.

Over on the dark side (Corvettes) the difference would not be nearly so great.

Regards,

Mark

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

I am a buyer for any cheap, documented, original drive train, known history COPO and rare cars needing sheet metal. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Regards,

Mark

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

I don't think belair is talking about cars that "need alot of sheetmetal" , he's talking about cars that NEEDED alot of sheetmetal, but instead got the tags and specific items transfered to a non-supercar body. THOSE are the cars people tend to shy away from.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Joe,

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I didn't quite get that the way it was intended.

With that being said, you get a ZL1 that is documented with original drivetrain and known history. It is, unquestionably, the real deal. The body is history. Everything is rusted out and beat to dickens and there is nothing much useful remaining, You now find a beautiful donor car and transfer the drivetrain and sub frame over to the donor. The trim tags are attached properly and a world class resto is performed. Are people really going to shy away or are they really only going to pay a fraction for a car like this? It doesn't make common sense to me. I would be a buyer on a car like that with no hesitation.

Listen, I would prefer an all original car, just like anyone else, but, I would not hesitate to pay strong money for the re-bodied car. It would not be a big money road block.

I believe super rare pieces, such as COPO, L88, Boss 429, etc, are not that greatly affected by such things.

Regards,

Mark

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

The problem lies in the fact that musclecars or really any car that has had a new or different body shell installed always was and always will be worth much less to a "collector." The enthusiast might not care as much, but the collector does. Since the vast majority here and on other musclecar websites will say they are "collectors" even if only owning a single car, the stigma stays.

Since we are talking persumably about GM "supercars" I find it somewhat humorous and naive when people on this website slam rebodies, as to a large degree you guys are the reason people are doing it in the first place. How many Yenko Camaros, Chevelles, Novas, and other supercars have been sold and flipped multiple times here for mega profit. The post and classifieds here are filled with cars that were bought on Sunday and sold the following Monday..lol I guarantee if people who primarily make up this website sat and thought about it they could name 2-3 dozen cars sold more than twice in a 6-9 month period and at least a dozen people here assoicated as "flippers." It stands to reason that enterprising people recognize the profit to be made and will go to great lengths to "rebuild" what in a normal market might be left alone.

I am not a collector, but an enthuiast. So for me as long as the car in question has the proper docs, numbers, and there isn't evidence of a rebody then it is good enough. Notice I didn't say I WANTED a rebody or that I would knowingly buy a rebody. However since any car I buy, I can't lay claim to having been there from its' inception to today (only a handful of original owners can do that) then I have to assume a car has had some type of work. If I'm coughing up the coinage for a "supercar" or some other rare car then I'm researching the docs and the cars' history BEFORE buying..not after. If I find the car was a race car and cut up and today it isn't..then I'm an idiot if I don't ASSUME extensive repair or a rebody, unless evidence to the contrary. I should then pay as such.

It is also funny to me when folks here talk about self policing the hobby and ensuring that "rebodies" are somehow catagorized. My opinion on the times I've seen susupected cars brought to light, it largely depends on 2 things..a) who is notifing the group and B) who owns the suspected car now. If it is someone out of the "loop" or group on either occasion the person and car are picked apart. If it is someone that everyone knows here and has coffee with at the car shows then it is kept pretty quiet and everyone hopes the discussion goes away. I would imagine largely because the whole "rebody" issue is a large negative in our hobby, and if "so and so" can be scrutinized then so can I mentality..

The bottom line is if an expert restoration is done on any given car..a "rebody" or installing a different body shell will not be detectable, It is only through thourgh research of a particular VIN that the truth might POSSIBILY be known. Sorry for being long winded..

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

a supercar with extensive sheetmetal repair is alot different than a supercar firewall welded to a plain-jane body, and other assorted stuff transferred to the plain jane body to make it appear like the original supercar once did. They are not the same thing, and shouldn't be considered the same, and I don't care who owns it. I've seen some REALLY bad cars brought back to life without a rebody, so just because a car needs alot of work doesn't mean taking the easy way out and firewalling a car is "ok" because thats quick and easy, and fixing the existing car is alot of work.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

As an "enthusist" would you be pissed if you bought a car that didn't turn out to be what your homework told you it was ?

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/im...es/popcorn.gif http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/im...es/popcorn.gif

Got to go get another cold one. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif


Rick H.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Let me share this, several years ago I was asked to do the undercarriage of a 1970 LS-6 Chevelle for a customer. We were to remove the drivetrain, and interior and bring the car to concours standards. This was a Numbers matching car complete with history and Buildsheet. The car was never modified and appeared a Super nice original low mile car. Upon removal of the inner fenders and onto the heater box all hell broke lose. This car had been creamed on the right side and had the right cowl off a 1972 chevelle with vin# under the blower motor opening. This was a very nice fix and done back in the day, No one knew. It was only visable from inside the car and had a winshield post and all installed. Does it hurt that car?
Number 2
I had a 1970 L-78 that some idiot started to graft Air Conditioning into and cut away part of the vin # under the heater opening. It had complete buildsheet and most of drive train. The new owner had to graft a firewall section and bitched about it. Does it hurt that car?
Number 3
I work on these cars daily and just finished a 1970 LS-6 for another customer. It had been Hit hard in the front and had also had a frame put under it. We figure this car was hit almost New as the frame was 40 days after the car, the sheetmetal on the front looked original paint and so on. Once apart again the right side had been crushed and the cowl and firewall panels on the blower motor had been poorly brazed in. and even the lower inner fender attachment was screwed in place all had GM part#s, hense no vin at all . does it hurt that car ?

3 Senerio's of real live accident or Idiot owner damage in life. Whats Your take
all real documented cars with firewall issuses
Jim https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

In all 3 cases mentioned, the original car was there... yes there were some repairs, and some numbers missing that were originally there, but the real car was still what you were looking at. Now if you would have told me you started taking a car apart, and found that it was actually a complete 72 chevelle with the 70 LS6 vin numbers and panels welded into it, that would be a different story... once again, theres a big difference between repairing and rebodying.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Joe, I don't quite understand what you do or do not consider a rebody. You seem to be saying if someone replaces every body panel one at a time, then it is OK because it was a lot of work and was harder than a tag swap? While this is the extreme case, where does one cross the line? No one has yet defined a rebody. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

In contrast, I don't see why its so hard to determine what is a rebody and what isn't. Yes, if you FIX the car you have, its not a rebody... if you turn a totally different car into one you have tags or documentation for, its a rebody... all the NOS sheetmetal in the world can't turn a car into a rebody...but taking one car and turning it into something else can. Some of you seem to be trying to say that replacing various sheetmetal pieces with new ones can eventually turn the car into a rebody... no way. I dont care if you piece by piece fix or replace every panel on your car, as long as you never bring in a different car and start taking smaller pieces (IE: the tags and firewall) of the original car and attaching them to the other one...bottom line is you gotta FIX the real car...not simply wheel in a different car and weld the real firewall to it. Seems like a simple enough explanation to me.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

So getting a donor body or two, cutting it up and then rewelding it piece by piece to the few bits salvageable from the "real car" is OK because it is more work and the real car is "fixed", than say back halving a clean intact donor onto the front of the "real car" ? I'm not picking on you, I just don't think this question is quite so black and white. There have been some good thoughts on both sides. Personally, I wouldn't want a car that has had extreme surgery like that and recently passed on a Supercar even though it was a good financial deal and a neat car.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

You need to use the structure of the real car...that doesn't mean you can't do some major sheetmetal replacing, but i dont care how "bad" the car is, it can be fixed without replacing every square inch of car from the firewall back... If you don't have anything else but the firewall and tags of a real car, its a rebody.

As a side note to this... if you think its OK to replace the entire car with another car, leaving only the firewall and tags of the real one, then that would mean any clone yenko could become a real car if you found a rusty real yenko and welded the firewall to your clone... I don't think anyone anywhere would consider this clone to all the sudden become "real".... but yet thats essentially what you're saying is OK to do if youre starting with the rusty/damaged real car instead of the other way around.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

[ QUOTE ]
I guarantee if people who primarily make up this website sat and thought about it they could name 2-3 dozen cars sold more than twice in a 6-9 month period and at least a dozen people here assoicated as "flippers."

[/ QUOTE ]

Greg...I challenge you to find these dozens of cars sold multiple times within 6 -9 months here by flippers here in the past 2 years...

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

If they are being flipped that often I want a chance to buy, I feel like a poor stepchild now....

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

I have brought this up elsewhere, but I'll give this example again. This is NOT made up, it is an actual situation in the world today.

Car A (a Yenko Camaro) was found by Collector 1 who determined that it was too far gone to restore. Collector 1 proceeded to purchase the VIN and trim tags off the car and swap them to Car B (plain jane 69 coupe). Collector 1 decided he didn't want anything else off the car and expcted Owner 2 to dispose of what was left. Fast forward to 2005, Car A (real Yenko)is still around and resides with Owner 2 since he never disposed of it. Remember, Car B (plain jane) now has the VIN and trim tags of Car A (real Yenko). Car A (real Yenko) has no tags, BUT does have the hidden VINs which, in a court of law, would make it the official owner of the tags now in Car B (plain jane).

You purchase Car A (real Yenko), restore it and try to title it. Low and behold.....the VIN of your car is assigned now to Car B(plain jane). Legal problems out the wazoo. Why? BECAUSE IT IS WRONG TO SWAP TAGS-- MORALLY, ETHICALLY, AND LEGALLY.

Forget about the rebody issues and all the ancillary crap that is confusing the issue here. If you decide on your own that you want to assign Car B the VIN off of Car A-- you are breaking the law. If you cut every piece of metal out of Car A and replace it but it retains its VIN, you have not broken the law.

What is so hard about this? I am building a 68 Yenko clone. But, I will NOT search out the Magic Mirror trim tag and have a VIN plate made up of some 68 Yenko which has not been found yet. I am not trying to fool anyone. I want the feel and look of a 68 Yenko. When the car is sold in the future, there will be no question if it is real or not. The only thing that I am going to change that may make it misleading to people in the future is to add a BB heater box. That addition is not to mislead, it is for functionality.

For those who don't think swapping tags is wrong. How about if I go ahead and rebuild my 68 using bogus tags and YS# off of one of the KNOWN to be destroyed 68 Yenkos. Would that be fraud? Would you pay BIG$$$$ for that car? Nope, because it isn't real.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Boy, I'm really enjoying this! Apparently there is no legal description of just what portion of a car makes it "a car". I posted this point before on another site, think it's worth a re-hash.....you can pay a resto. shop to replace each and every panel and it's a "restoration, new or n.o.s. stuff, new work, and new money. Or you take the numbered parts and cut the rest of the "car" away from them (catch that?), and slide in a "body", sorry, " collection of panels" that some uaw workers put together 30-35 yrs ago, new parts,new work, and new money. You simply paid a larger shop after the fact.Please tell me you get it that you can remove the rest of the body from the "juicy parts" instead of removing them from the body!

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

[ QUOTE ]
If they are being flipped that often I want a chance to buy, I feel like a poor stepchild now....

[/ QUOTE ]

Stuart, they are being flipped like that, but not by members of this site.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

[ QUOTE ]
Please tell me you get it that you can remove the rest of the body from the "juicy parts" instead of removing them from the body!

[/ QUOTE ]

Walking a fine line there.

Can you take your license plate off your LeMans blue 69 Camaro and put them on your Garnet 69 Camaro and drive it? Nope, that would be illegal. Will it work? Yep, until you get caught. Same prinicple applies.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

This will be the 1000 year debate...

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have brought this up elsewhere, but I'll give this example again. This is NOT made up, it is an actual situation in the world today.

Car A (a Yenko Camaro) was found by Collector 1 who determined that it was too far gone to restore. Collector 1 proceeded to purchase the VIN and trim tags off the car and swap them to Car B (plain jane 69 coupe). Collector 1 decided he didn't want anything else off the car and expcted Owner 2 to dispose of what was left. Fast forward to 2005, Car A (real Yenko)is still around and resides with Owner 2 since he never disposed of it. Remember, Car B (plain jane) now has the VIN and trim tags of Car A (real Yenko). Car A (real Yenko) has no tags, BUT does have the hidden VINs which, in a court of law, would make it the official owner of the tags now in Car B (plain jane).

You purchase Car A (real Yenko), restore it and try to title it. Low and behold.....the VIN of your car is assigned now to Car B(plain jane). Legal problems out the wazoo. Why? BECAUSE IT IS WRONG TO SWAP TAGS-- MORALLY, ETHICALLY, AND LEGALLY.

Forget about the rebody issues and all the ancillary crap that is confusing the issue here. If you decide on your own that you want to assign Car B the VIN off of Car A-- you are breaking the law. If you cut every piece of metal out of Car A and replace it but it retains its VIN, you have not broken the law.

What is so hard about this? I am building a 68 Yenko clone. But, I will NOT search out the Magic Mirror trim tag and have a VIN plate made up of some 68 Yenko which has not been found yet. I am not trying to fool anyone. I want the feel and look of a 68 Yenko. When the car is sold in the future, there will be no question if it is real or not. The only thing that I am going to change that may make it misleading to people in the future is to add a BB heater box. That addition is not to mislead, it is for functionality.

For those who don't think swapping tags is wrong. How about if I go ahead and rebuild my 68 using bogus tags and YS# off of one of the KNOWN to be destroyed 68 Yenkos. Would that be fraud? Would you pay BIG$$$$ for that car? Nope, because it isn't real.

[/ QUOTE ] The use of the word bogus killed that point. What's so hard is shown in your post, you say cut all the metal away and the vin is still there so it's real. So the vins are what make it real,yes? So you just replace every thing else and it's still real? It's very hard and not likely to be solved 'tll there is a legal disc. of what exactly makes a car a car....jmho.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

[ QUOTE ]
This will be the 1000 year debate...

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree totally Charlie. However, it is my hope that the beauty in a group like ours is that if I were looking to buy a car that had a "questionable" past....someone would PM me, call me, stop by, or whatever. But they would let me know. We can't police the world, nor should we try. But, we can help those out who are looking for answers and doing thier due diligence on a potential purchase. Right? That is all we can do.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Can you take your license plate off your LeMans blue 69 Camaro and put them on your Garnet 69 Camaro and drive it? Nope, that would be illegal. Will it work? Yep, until you get caught. Same prinicple applies.

[/ QUOTE ] https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif Now, if you take the plates AND the vins.... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Exactly the type of scenario most people have a funny feeling about......and that is why this is such an interesting subject...and now you look at a car like this and it has COPO Connection certification or even the original paperwork,POP etc....the VIN is correct...and trim is correct and checked back to a Yenko Inventory sheet so it must be real right ? Wrong...so now you buy this car...the old car rears it's ugly head and you are all screwed in one way or another because instead of going thru the ridiculously expensive restoration of a hulk someone chose to go the lazy (or smart) way of throwing the tags on a clean body...how is the guy looking at the car or verifying the car supposed to see this ? I would guess that most people would prefer NOT to own a car like this and thats why it becomes a "secret"...until someone finds the real car hulk that was left behind...if you look at it from a money standpoint...it has to be much cheaper to rebody a car....any restoration guys want to guess at the cost difference between restoring a nasty car with NOS sheetmetal and simply restoring a clean body shell and dropping it on ???

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I guarantee if people who primarily make up this website sat and thought about it they could name 2-3 dozen cars sold more than twice in a 6-9 month period and at least a dozen people here assoicated as "flippers."

[/ QUOTE ]

Greg...I challenge you to find these dozens of cars sold multiple times within 6 -9 months here by flippers here in the past 2 years...

[/ QUOTE ]

it may appear that way...we all have our core car/cars that will never be for sale short of a family emergency...the other cars are fun to chase play with and trade or sell and get something else that floats your boat that week..nothing wrong with that..heck it keeps them in circulation that way. anyone have a 86/88 Blue / white top shifter roadster Vette around..got a itch for one this week.. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/Charley.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Really hammers home the point that a certificate is just that, a piece of paper, unless backed up by a bonafide inspection of the car in question. IMO, the only way to avoid making a costly mistake is to hire someone you trust, and knows what to look for.


And yes, would be neat if folks who had information about a possible bogus car would pass it along, but trust me, that is a very slippery slope. Been there, done that. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif