Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

Thank goodness I deleted my post!!!

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

i'm the guy whos was stupid and sold the radio flyer wagon which is currently undergoing a frame off rest, bent axle. i will confirm as i have a picture with gibbs daughter everything i heard and all the details she pointed out for 30-45 minutes, she knew the car like she was currently driving it, every detail. she was in awe! i was on the move with a yenko shirt deal but had no deaf ears. i heard every word she said, and offered to buy the car then. btw, tim , is right here, along with stefano, myself, rick smith, bulah?sp. and tims dad. i know what i heard and could duplicate it along with stefano , rick, and others present. i am in tims corner on this one guys. this lady knew her stuff. there was no way she could explain those details without knowledge, confirmed i heard her say she had towed this car behind a station wagon at least 150 times. i had her sign the flyer wagon and guess what it is worth now. i sold it to cheap. don't take shots without ammo.

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

Well put Kevin!!!To many times on our neat site some members quickly shoot from the hip without thinking.

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

Being from the other side of the world, could someone enlighten me with funny cars what constitites the basis for a restoration, with provenance.
Back in the early 90's when restoring Monte Carlo Rally cars was a big thing there were many versions of the same car, as body shells due to wear and tear were junked several times per season. When these cars were restored many people claimed to be the owner of the "original car ". For Funny Cars does the provenance follow the body or chassis.

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

Usually the body is more important as you can always build a chassis. Over a period of years if the car is campaigned in the lower ranks after being out-dated by the sanctioning body due to safety reasons the chassis' are usually changed or modified or even destroyed. However it is nice to have both original items but it is rare unless the car was parked as a whole.......................RatPack............... .

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

Ken
The "super john" 69 camaro is John McFadden and yes it is a ZL-1
Dave

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

First, I would like to say I hope Copolocater rejoins this site, and moreover, I never was trying to anger him. If I were in his shoes I would be upset also. When a person takes the word of others and it's what they want to hear it is very discouraging to hear from another that it is not correct. With all due respect to the Gibbs, I do not think it was fair to make a statement to a person when they were not involved that part of the history - the funny cars were built out of Dick Harrell's shop in Kansas City, not for Fred Gibb Chevrolet. My information comes from the men that worked with Dickie and helped to run the cars. They even stayed at my house. The cars were painted by OOPS, John Fenson. He re-painted the 69 F/C car several times in 69,The SAME body.Made by Fiberglass ltd as were many. As confusing as the Harrell stable was, I could understand the confusion.
In 70 to 71 there was as many as 3 at one time 1 being a Vega. Yes Valeries 69 car was 118in wheel base. If I figure out how to send a few pictures on this site I will do so.
Good nite all hope you had a great thanksgiving

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

I have heard a lot of statements made in racing and just on TV. I am sure glad I dont believe them all. Maybe I have missed something. This is supposed to be a 69 Dick Harrell funny car. What was she doing towing it behind a wagon when Harrell had a full shop of men to work on His race cars including Ramp turcks and then an 18 wheeler.Some of The Fred Gibb door cars were towed on trailers. Do you have any clue how long it takes to make 150 trips to any where?
I would be suprised in 69 if she was even 16 years old.
On a busy year the car may have made 70 race dates.If Valerie had the 1 car. Who had or has the other.It would be a Don Hardy round tube chassis.Not a square tube car. Now I will ask you.Where is their documentation?

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

Your approach to "due respect to the Gibbs" is at a minimum curious, and more likely insulting.

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

I say, where is EVERYBODY'S documentation?? Let the people you refer to identify themselves, and, state what they think they remember. So far, everything else is just hearsay. Why you think one person's recollections are more accurate than another's, I'm not sure. Unless, as you say, it's what you want to hear.
Can't we keep an open mind, and, let the info develop as it will? It could take months to gather,and, we can't settle these issues by jaw-jackin' on this site.

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

The men that built the car would be a good start. The people that had there hands on the car every day would have an idea of what went on then. Dave Libby saw the car at the reunion, what was his impression? Maybe the Gibb's will share their story with the board members?...BKH

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread) *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by yenko

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

She did say back and forth to the race track not complete round trips if you want to be accurate. She also didn't say one way or the other that she was the one driving the tow vehicle itself.

She definately ,without question stated per her and her mother that there was a back up car.

For every race date how many test/tune/track rental dates exist ?. It is unlikely to be 1 to 1 for any serious national level race effort of any kind.

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

My original intent was to keep this duscussion civil and off line. Since neither has happened, I will now go online with what I know.

The car in question is not a new found discovery. It has been making the rounds in the vintage funnycar world for the past 2-3 years, much like Bob Peck amd his cars on this site. It is known as the "Idaho" car. No one associated with vintage funnycars has every felt that the car was one of Dicks. The previous owners had tried many avenues to pawn the car off as being one of Dicks, going as far as offering the sYc a nice commission if we could help them sell the car. We passed. Finally the car was listed on Ebay. As is done on this board when a COPO is listed on Ebay, the car was once again discussed on a couple of vintage funny car sites, again with no one saying it was one of Dick's. Thus, the car sold for much less then what a real DH car would sale for. At the supercar reunion, Dave Libby, who was employed by Dick at this time, stated that the car was not one of Dick's. This was done to a group standing around the memorabilia displays.

To the ones who have blasted menmyfcs, you might want to reconsider, apoligize and stick to steel bodied cars. That gentleman was invited to this board by me, becuase he is the world's leading authority on vintage funnycars, bar none. He is employed by NHRA, moderates a couple of vintage funnycar sites, is very involved in vintage funnycar racing, and most important, was a close frined of Dicks during this time. As Ed Cunneen is to ZL-1s, he is to vintage funnycars.

Now, to the Gibbs. Becuase of the respect I have for the Gibb family, it was very troubling for me when it appeared that I was disputing their word. Thus, though a mutal friend, I sent an apoligy to them. I was told that I might want to visit with them direct. Boy, was I surprised to hear what they had say about the events at Vettefest. Here goes, as told to me by Nancy Gibb, with her mom present.

First, a couple of very important facts. 1. Helen Gibb never examined the FC at Vettefest. She was being interviewed by a TV crew. When she finished the interview, she and Nancy left the show. 2. Nancy was 10 years of age in 1969.

Nancy did not tow the cars 150 times, she was sitting in the back seat of a station wagon with Dick's wife Elaine, as it was being pulled down the return road. She did not see two cars being painted at the same time, she told Tim that there were two cars painted the same, the ZL-1 and Dick's funny car. The mis-quotes go on and on. From the very beginning, she told Tim that the chassis was wrong, and that all she knew about the body was that it was similar to Dick's 1969, except Dick's had an extended front end. She gave Tim several examples of other drivers of the time who also had Camaros. When asked if this could be, or that could be, Nancy said yes, could be, but that she did not know. Nancy nor Helen, have no idea whose car Tim has. Nancy only remembers Dick having one 1969 FC, the one he won the world championship in, which has the extended front end. She did say Dick may have had another one, but had no way of knowing.

I do not know what everyone there heard, but I know what Nancy said happened, and I take her for her word. And you do not have to believe me. Ask any close friend of the Gibb family, or ask Tim. He should have an email from Nancy by now expressing their concerns.

The worst part of the whole situation is this, and it saddens me deeply. Because of the way that their words were turned around, Helen was quoted as saying" I wish that we had never gone to the show(Vettevest). I may never attend another event(except LaHarpe)."

Everyone who has participated in the two threads regarding this matter owe the Gibb family an apoligy. I have already done so, several times over. Tom

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

Tom,
I agree with your statment about the disrespect shown to the poster menmyfcs I also know who he is and you are accurate in your description of both his knowledge and the respect he has in the f/c world.
That being said if it would be prudent of me to say, I am one of the few remaining people there is who believes he can pretty accuratly explain the many yes and no of Dicks
funny cars from 67 thru 69 which I have intimate knowledge of. I was there! My knowledge of the 70&71 cars does have a few gaps but I do have a fairly good amount about them as well.
This would be a lenghtly post to do this but I would be glad to do it if there was enough interest. I maybe can once and for all clear up a few mostly unfounded rumors

Dave Libby

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

One possible way to get an answer is to sand the body down in an area and see what the base color paint it. Not sure if the body would of been stripped when it was repainted over the years. Then again weight conscious racers might have removed the old paint. I know many old race cars have been discovered or at the same time pointed out as a fake by this method.
Dave

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

Dave; Glad to have you aboard. And, not only are you welcome to post about what you know, I encourage it. It is people like you, and the Gibb family, folks that were there, who help us sort the BS from the truth.

For those who do not know Dave, he was employed by Dick Harrell in KC. Dave's handsome mug can be seen in a couple of articles that were done on Dick, back in the day. One of them shows Dave working underneath one of Dick's funnycars. Tom

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

Dave,
I for one, would certainly like to learn more, especially from a first hand source. I would believe that should be one of the main objectives for a Forum such as this.

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

If asking for people to identify themselves, and, thereby verify the knowledge base that qualifies them to pass judgement on a car is taken as disrespectful, I apologize. I for one, am thankful that we can hear from those qualified to weigh in. That's what we need in this instance, not "he said- she said".

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

Thank You Tom and Dave. All though I do love the computer it has its faults. One being that you cannot see a person or hear what is in their voice. What comes off as sarcastic may not be anything like it sounds. When researching some cars that were supposed to be Mickey Thompson cars, I ran into this same issue. I used my full name and was bombarded with a bunch of mail, some not real good. I would never-NEVER want to make the Gibbs feel they did anything wrong. Again my wording was more than likely a bit harsh. Those years were the best of most of the racing communities lives and I am glad for Helen, Nancy and many others that they are having a chance to re-live them and the memories. As I stated, there were funny cars coming out of the woodwork. The wheelbase of the body or car has NO bearing on what was out there. The M/T pinto and mustang were 112" and others were 115". A 68 Camaro F/C I drove had a Camaro body that was 125" wheelbase. It was an experimental time. There were also cars as of today that staggered from side to sided 2 1/2 inches, called an offset frontend.

Tom, just so you know there were several others who that alerted me to the issue of the postings on the Supercar site about the DH/FG funnycar! I have 5 pictures of this car with prices ranging over 100K plus. Initially, a man named Peterson from Boise, Idaho was trying to sell the 69 F/C. He was told by a few racers that it COULD have been one of Dick's cars, however, they were not 100% sure. After talking to those racers, they confirmed that Peterson was told it looked like an old Dick Harrell or Kelly Chadwick body. Peterson took it from there and all he saw was $$$$$. He then tried to get you to sell it, then he located Valerie and last of all trying to find Elaine Harrell. Valerie and I both confirmed to Peterson that it was NOT a DH/FG funnycar. After that, it was probably a good year and half later that the very same car showed up on the eBay, only the decals that Peterson had on it had been removed & all that was remaining on the body was the Candy Apple red paint. So when it comes to old race cars, a duck may not be a duck. It may just look like one and possibly be a turkey. I am sure that Nancy was talking about ZL-1 cars, as they did run and test quite a bit. The earlier cars were lucky to test 6 times a year, they test more now than ever before. In the late 60s they match raced so much
they used them to test. Also, in the late 60s there were only about 8 AHRA events per year, and the funny cars were just getting rcognized by NHRA. Once again no harm was ever meant to anybody. Sincerely Menmyfcs

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

This is no longer about my car> I don't care about my car. What I do care about is the authenticity of the other two cars. Dick's extended nose funny car, which was supposed to be the only car had a 125" wheel base. The 118" wheel base fit only under a stock body car! The back up car that Tom relates to...What is it and we would like to see pictures. If we are seeking the truth, let's find it! Within the next week, not after completion of any car. if I am wrong, I will stand up like a man and apologize to EVERYONE!! Agaain, this is not about my car. This is about one car and Tom Clary's back up car, the one I assumed you had....if not you then who!! My car is not a DH car. Now we have that understanding, now let's move on. Information and pictures of BOTH cars please. Let's get to the truth.

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

Tim; I think the time to apoligize is now. And not only you, but several others, who became involved in something they knew little about. I, for one, am very disappointed in how this all played out on this site. Right now I am ashamed and embarrassed to say that I am part of the current "supercar hobby". Tom

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

i, like , stefano would like to hear from knowledgable people like these new members. nancy never authenticated the car and was just using the number 150 times as a figure of speach and trips to the drag strip. her curiosity was so aroused that the last we saw her she was going to get her mom to see the car, from there? i appreciate the fact there are people with knowledge, me not being one, but was certainly there to here the conversation. i am not making up what i heard and the excitement she shared with us. i like everyone else, sisxties muscles, and others would enjoy the finality of what it is or isn't. when i was there i heard what i heard but never did i say she said it definitely was, she just pointed to numerous items on the car that indicated that it could have been. my apologies to anyone who has taken offense. nancy was very excited , avery nice lady, and spoke with great knowledge that got us all excited about the car. if anyone had heard what we heard it was enough to make anyone reach for there wallet and take a chance. i wasn't the only that was willing to buy it on the spot based on what i heard, again not saying she authenticated the car. the last we saw her she was going after mom.

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

Tim, I do not have, nor do I know who does, have the second car. I was told by a reliable source a couple of years ago about it. As far as they knew, only a portion of the chassis remained, as the car had been rebodied, maybe to a '70. What I do have is a 1968, which is why I have researched vintage FCs. It is believed to be Dick's Courtesy car, but I am still doing the research. That is one reason Dave Libby was at the reunion. He had some pictures for me. Tom

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

Perhaps the owner of the backup car does not want any info on the car released to the Public. Or maybe it is being kept quiet because of possible purchase. If I knew where it was I don't think I would post that info on any Web site as it would most certainly hurt my chances of owning it. I don't think we need proof of the backup car to settle this dispute.. I would also like to thank the Gibbs for coming to Vettefest and thankyou Helen for signing my cars. My ZL1 wasn't sold at Gibb but it wouldn't exist if not for Freds efforts. Helen is sharp as a Tack and traveled by Train to come to the show. I do Hope that what has transpired here does not deter them from coming to future shows.

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

"I have heard reports of a possible 2nd '69, or at least part of one, but this may be rumor." (Tom Clary)

"69 funnycar-looks like a duck talks like a duck could it be?" (copolocator)

"This is about one car and Tom Clary's back up car, the one I assumed you had...."(copolocator)

Assumed Ass....out....of.....u....and.....me... (don't remember who said it but it was a good line in a movie)

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

charlie,
very well put!

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

"My car is not a DH car. Now we have that understanding, now let's move on. " Copolocater

Now that we have that settled, and the bandwagon is almost empty, I am headed to my shop to sand on a Nova. Tom

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

Tom and all

I will try to explain the existance of both 68 f/c as I know it.
Dick's 68 car in it's ORIGNAL configuration was a new construction by Don Hardy painted the same as the 67 (ie)
Chevy red with a black spray on vinyl top later it lost the black top when it was repainted a different shade of red overall. side note this was done after the plan to have 4 cars with the red/black combo, The car that Ken Bojie has now being one Dick f/c, a Chevelle formula stock and a camaro prostock. That didn't happen hence the 1st repaint.
Again after a short time it was repainted to the red/orange/burgandy combo most remember best. fast forward to end of season that car was sold to John McFadden, exactly how it moved from him to who you got it from is just not in the bank of info of what I know. After all that happened 1500 miles away. Going Back to mid year when the repossed 67 car was sold (67 will be explained in my next post) Dick made a deal with Jim Kirby to use his car to replace what the now sold 67 car had beem doing. As you Tom have mentioned it was a 68 Hardy car but inj.only Painted gold.Otherwise it was a near twin to Dick's car. It was painted by my brother a sort of plum color and we changed it over to a blown combination. (the loan of the car deal)
There is a picture of this car already posted early on in this thread so no need to post it again. It is the one with Dick's name on the Quarter panel and Jim Kirby on the front fender. BTY That is me and my older brother in that pic.
After all concerned grew tired of that plum color (it really was not very pretty). It was again painted red with a sort of beige/gold lace not too unlike what the 69 was patterned after. I have seen a picture of this paint job also in this thread. The clue is the name Jim Kirby on the front fender. RUMOR has it that Jim still has this car but that is as I say RUMOR. It is in my opinion that this is a moot point anyway no matter WHO has it if in fact it does still exist because it is NOT a Dick Harrell car! only one he used for a short time. It is a Jim Kirby car. Charlie drove it mostly anyway.
I am going to attempt to attach a picture of the above mentioned "Kirby car" with Charlie driving racing the 68 SuperCuda. I sincerly hope this will clear some of the fog around this matter.
Dave Libby

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

Dave, thanks for sharing your wealth of knowledge. I still have a question though. If Dick built [or had built] and drove a car, even for a little while, and, it carried his name, how is it not a Dick Harrell car? Is the protocol in funny cars to consider the car to be only one that was driven by the last driver?

As far as being embarrassed, Tom, come on. There have been alot more hostile discussions on this site before this. Let's not forget, these are JUST CARS!! The truth always comes out, EVENTUALLY, and we have to acknowledge that there are monetary motivations behind many of our dealings. I agree, a bit more civility and respect is appropriate, but, sometimes a good honest argument is what it takes to hear all sides.
I admit my interests are more in stock & superstock race cars, so, maybe it's different in the funny car world. As one member stated recently, we need edumacation. Mike Guarise

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

Mike
Good question I will try to explain why my view is as it is.
The car in question (the 68 kirby car) was built by Don Hardy for Jim Kirby (of ST.Louis MO) and delivered in what form I have no idea maybe complete maybe a roller with body mounted but none the less to him.. hence his car.
As I memtioned a deal was made for Dick to use the car for a period of time for no fee. In exchange for this Dick
or to be absolutly correct we (his shop) would change it over to a blown combination. Even then this was no small expense. After the agreed time was up the car returned to Jim as it was (blown)and he ran it I believe on the UDRA mostly. I have heard that after Dick died Jim sanded the Harrell paint job off of it and it was last seen in primer
in an undisclosed location in St.Louis area.
Again this is my opinion but thanks for the question.

Dave.

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

its all over now baby blue, quote "grateful dead", former bob dylan tune.
mike,
i must agree! see attachment!

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

I apologize. Now, answer this question and I'm done. Is the 69 F/C Valerie has an extended nose 125" wheel base or is it a 118" stock bodied wheel base? Simple question!

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

Mike, you can make light of the subject if you want, that is your business. I agree, we have had numerous heated discussions on this board, but none that involved as many innoocent people as this. Folks who until a couple days ago did not even know this sight existed. This one was more then JUST about cars. People's integrity, including mine, were questioned. That bothers me. Especially when it is, as you say, monetary motivated. Tom

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

see attachment

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

Dave, about 5 years ago I spoke with Jim Kirby on the phone about his car. He still had it, parked in either his or his dad's basement, I do not remember which. He told me it was complete, ready to race. He stated that it no longer carried the DH paint scheme. It was changed after Dick's death. At the time of our visit, the car was for sale, as Jim was into Harleys. No one seems to know if he still has it. Tom

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

Tim
Look at the attachment on my post I did earlier today of the "Kirby car". This is the fabled 68 back up car it is a near twin to Tom's car including the w/b 118 inches. Not 110 as a real 68 camaro. for a point of reference look at the distance from the door line to the front wheel also the position of the rear wheel in relation to the sail panel and I can assure you this car is 118 inch wheel base.
I reality I had occasion to actually measure the wheel base of the 69 car and it was 120 on the left side and 118 on the right side. Understand this was done to give the car more "roll out" in the starting beams. If it is must know info as to how/why I did such a thing I can explain but it is a long story involving suspension tricks and not relevant
to the matter at hand.
The true fate of Dick's 69 car is known to me however I will not disclose that is is only for Valerie to do so if she desires and I dont think she needs to do that.
I also have pics of the 69 car w/date on them taken in summer 2000 but will not post them without her permission.
Its location was known to me as late as summer 2001.

Dave

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

Tom
I remember our conversation. I was only trying to be somewhat vague about where/what happend with that car
because as you say nobody seems to be able find out if he still has it or not.I am firm in the belief that although Dick & Charlie drove it it is still not a Dick Harrell car
because I believe you have the one and only true Dick Harrell 68 f/c.
best to you
Dave

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

davenkc, menmyfcs, Tom, Tim, and all board members,

I am glad to see this open, honest discussion, and hope friendships endure and we all understand this is
only about cars. They are material items, and just that.

I sincerely hope Nancy and Helen are not hurt by what has gone on in this post, as I cherish their friendship. I also respect the knowledge and heritage new members such as menmyfcs and davenkc bring to this forum.

Ken Boje

ps: davenkc, SuperJohn really was super! [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Dick Harrell drag car (new thread)
 

This forum is now getting down to a discussion that sounds worth sticking with. As for the wheelbase on the 69, this was verified today by a person that made a dolly under the car to help transport it to to a safe location. It is as I said and as Dave states, 118 and 120 a standard practice still today for more roll out on the lights. The builder just moves the body to try and get all the wheel wells to match. As of late, the bodies are made with the wheel well staggered. Maybe the 125 inch cars Dick had were some of the door cars. You can tell them real easy. They almost look bent in the middle.
This is normally what my take has been on what makes the car a ligit Harrell car. Was it built for him? No. Jim Kirby has a Don Hardy built car made for and owned by Jim Kirby, not a Dick Harrell owned car. Just a car he borrowed. Again, Dave is correct-Charlie Therwanger drove it most of the time as a fill in. Also, what is a back up car? In most cases it is a car to run if the other is crashed or being repainted. There was not one in 69 according to shop and crew personel. If Kenny Bernstein borrowed a car from John Force for a few races, and won one of them. It would just be the car Kenny won that race in and still be a John Force car. Not a Kenny Bernstein car! I hope this all makes sense.
Menmyfcs