Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

I don't know,but I'd move out of that neighborhood if I was you.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

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I don't know,but I'd move out of that neighborhood if I was you.

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I would but I get a pretty nice discount at that porn shop https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

They didn't cut the firewall out, and didn't swap tags. It's just been repaired more times, and more extensively than any car I've ever seen. The moral of your example is to stay out of the stinkin porn shops https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

I think we can all agree that we all have different levels of "acceptability" in terms of replaced metal. The law is very clear in regards to the vin removal/re-installation. To protect the truly original cars and to protect the buyers of these supercars it would be nice to have a documented history along with each car. The long term supercar enthusiasts could collaborate to compile a accurate history of most of these known cars. Will it happen is another question. There are people who might not like the truth to come out on many of these cars. I would hope that if I happened to spend $ 1,400,000 for instance for some supercars, it might be nice to know I bought a rebody, ex-race car, etc.,etc...
How clean will the hobby become? I think we all can contribute. I for one hope to see this happen in the future.

Mark

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

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They didn't cut the firewall out, and didn't swap tags. It's just been repaired more times, and more extensively than any car I've ever seen. The moral of your example is to stay out of the stinkin porn shops https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

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How do you know the porn shops stink Marlin ?

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Camaromb....I will be over next week with copies of all your notes and help you complile them....oh never mind I forgot I made copies when you weren't there one day !!!

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Lots of good examples and thoughts on the subject. But it seems without some legal defintion that is shared across states(and Canada too, eh) it will be hard to set a standard. I'm leaning towards the original VIN tag still being attached to the original dash and original firewall with the hidden VIN. That to me represents the original shell. Now if the floor and roof section gets cut and another rear section welded up, that is no longer the original shell but it could be hard to detect if the work was done well. In the end, don't most of the cars become "buyer beware" and that's why so many people come to these sites to ask questions about a given car's history? That's what's great about sites like this and people sharing information. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

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They didn't cut the firewall out, and didn't swap tags. It's just been repaired more times, and more extensively than any car I've ever seen. The moral of your example is to stay out of the stinkin porn shops https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

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How do you know the porn shops stink Marlin ?

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The good ones have a fishy smell to them https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Can someone define "firewalling" for me? . Is this as car #5 above....using a donor cowl and door posts but grafting in "enough" of the original car to include the hidden Vin also the undisturbed Vin tag itelf....or is it like car #4 which uses the original car cowl w/ posts??? . Thanks! ~ Pete

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

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Can someone define "firewalling" for me? . Is this as car #5 above....using a donor cowl and door posts but grafting in "enough" of the original car to include the hidden Vin also the undisturbed Vin tag itelf....or is it like car #4 which uses the original car cowl w/ posts??? . Thanks! ~ Pete

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Its all semantics, if the vin was on the gas cap you could screw it on any car you wanted and it would become "original".

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

So, at the end of the day.......

Do they look good? Sound cool? And go really quick?

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

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So, at the end of the day.......

Do they look good? Sound cool? And go really quick?

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There are alot of cars under 20 grand that fit that profile, its when you pay 6 figures for a "gas cap" that make you wonder.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Nobody on the firewalling question? . The cowl w/ tags as the only original part left is an old one in the car hobby....extensive restorations starting from no more than this is what some expensive Bugatti's, Duesenbergs and the like have been brought back from. . The've usually had to fabricate the other components though, not having the luxury of a mass produced donor car. . Usually all is well documented and the story is up front and available when sale time comes. . I'll go out on a limb and say, if not using a whole cowl w/ door posts and grafting "enough" of a vehicle to move the identity without disturbing the Vin tag and hidden Vin is what firewalling is, than this is where the line gets crossed. . Again anyone can do what they like but with the values now, the buyer should be aware in writing with any of the situations suggested. ~ Pete

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

[ QUOTE ]
Can someone define "firewalling" for me? . Is this as car #5 above....using a donor cowl and door posts but grafting in "enough" of the original car to include the hidden Vin also the undisturbed Vin tag itelf....or is it like car #4 which uses the original car cowl w/ posts??? . Thanks! ~ Pete

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My understanding of firewall is car #5. Taking the firewall with the vin tag and hidden vins of the super car and welding into a good body of a plain jane 6 cyl.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

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Can someone define "firewalling" for me? . Is this as car #5 above....using a donor cowl and door posts but grafting in "enough" of the original car to include the hidden Vin also the undisturbed Vin tag itelf....or is it like car #4 which uses the original car cowl w/ posts??? . Thanks! ~ Pete

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My understanding of firewall is car #5. Taking the firewall with the vin tag and hidden vins of the super car and welding into a good body of a plain jane 6 cyl.

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Thanks....that's what I expected but it seems to be something that some don't want clarified? ~ Pete

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

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While we are exploring situations here:

A car has a firewall job done when it was only 1.5 years old as a repair while under insurance. The firewall effort was not concealed, and was just ripped across the floorboards - rockers and all. The original green paint is still visible on this blue car.

What is it? Is it acceptable as a repair? The motive at the time it was done was to repair it, not to defraud anyone.

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Aren't cars this badly damaged normally totalled by the insurance company? And, if someone pieces two cars together, a salvage title is issued? I just don't think this sounds like a realistic scenario.
-Sam

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Believe me Sam it's a realistic scenario with a real world Supercar. Take into consideration what some of these cars cost when they were new, and that most of them shared essentially the same body shells as their much less expesive counterparts. If a Supercar got wrecked when it still had alot of value, or alot of $ was still owed on the loan it's entirely feasable that the repair would be deemed more economical by simply using the Supercar's original drivetrain and firewall, but most of the body from another wrecked, and less expensive model of the same vehicle. Again, back when the said Supercar was only a year or so old, it wasn't reconstructed with fradulent intentions in mind, or in an attempt to make something out of nothing, only to repair a very expensive, very badly damaged, essentially brand new low mileage car.

What isn't known is how or why this real world scenario occured, or what the true story of the original body is, only that it's been gone prior to the current owner picking it up when it was less than 2 years old. The interesting twist here, is that the current owner has never even really owned the "original Supercar" body only what's been grafted to the original Supercar cowl some 30 odd years ago. The car is definitely a "rebody" by all definitions with all but it's original cowl MIA, but the rub is it's all he's ever known, and it is the car he's owned and enjoyed driving for years.

Now the real hypothetical is what if the rebodied Supercar that got rebodied back in the first 1-2 years of the car's life goes on to make some real race history for itself with the "donor" body? What if we learned tomorrow that Ed Hedrick's DY sYc Camaro was rebodied when it was only a few months old? We do know it had the quarter panel smashed and replaced after a flat towing incident which is actually why that particular car was given to Ed, but let's pretend the damage was so extensive it required a firewall job before Don handed it over to Ed. If you found that car today, what would you call it? It would definitely still be a "rebody" by definition, but I probably couldn't help but call it the Holy Grail. Interesting discussion...

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

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While we are exploring situations here:

A car has a firewall job done when it was only 1.5 years old as a repair while under insurance. The firewall effort was not concealed, and was just ripped across the floorboards - rockers and all. The original green paint is still visible on this blue car.

What is it? Is it acceptable as a repair? The motive at the time it was done was to repair it, not to defraud anyone.

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Aren't cars this badly damaged normally totalled by the insurance company? And, if someone pieces two cars together, a salvage title is issued? I just don't think this sounds like a realistic scenario.
-Sam

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Believe me Sam it's a realistic scenario with a real world Supercar.

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I stand corrected, there's no denying facts!

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Now the real hypothetical is what if the rebodied Supercar that got rebodied back in the first 1-2 years of the car's life goes on to make some real race history for itself with the "donor" body? What if we learned tomorrow that Ed Hedrick's DY sYc Camaro was rebodied when it was only a few months old? We do know it had the quarter panel smashed and replaced after a flat towing incident which is actually why that particular car was given to Ed, but let's pretend the damage was so extensive it required a firewall job before Don handed it over to Ed. If you found that car today, what would you call it? It would definitely still be a "rebody" by definition, but I probably couldn't help but call it the Holy Grail. Interesting discussion...

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Is the history of a car what makes it valuable? I think it is, and for proof I offer up the importance of original documentation and history in enhancing the value of any super car or muscle car. The Ed Hedrick car is certainly more interesting to people than, say, another Daytona Yellow Yenko with no docs but on the VIN list. And unrestored cars tend to draw more attention than the perfect restoration, because we are always interested to see a car as it was "in the day".

Based on this, I would say that your example of a car that was firewalled early in its existence, would still have its history, even though it is missing most of the sheet metal it left the factory with.

What is more valuable, a car with it's original "skin" or sheet metal, but a replacement engine, trans, and rear, or a "firewalled" car with it's original "heart" or drive train? Which would you rather have? I know there are some who say "I would never own a rebody" and there are others that insist on the original, documented drive train. Some even accept only unrestored cars! But for most of us, these are available in such limited number as to be nearly unattainable. SO, would you buy that COPO with most of its original sheet metal but non-original motor, or would you buy the one with all replacement sheet metal ("rebody") but the original motor, trans, etc.??

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

We all have our own opinions on what is a rebody and they will probably differ forever. Probably the most important thing to me would be that whatever was done be disclosed to a potential buyer. The buyer can then make his own decision on if it is a car he wants...

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

I kown of a 70 Chevelle 454 SS car that has a rusty vin tag that you can't read at all. The car was taken in for a CT inspection and ended up getting inpounded. The CT state PB told him he could get the car back if the hidden vin # matched the reg and paper work to the car,if not good by car hello prison. Lucky for him the hidden vin on the firewall (yes they took the car apart)and the vin on the tanny matched the paper work. If I was spending 50k or more on a car I would want to see hidding vins that match paper work. Ed

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

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What is more valuable, a car with it's original "skin" or sheet metal, but a replacement engine, trans, and rear, or a "firewalled" car with it's original "heart" or drive train? Which would you rather have? I know there are some who say "I would never own a rebody" and there are others that insist on the original, documented drive train. Some even accept only unrestored cars! But for most of us, these are available in such limited number as to be nearly unattainable. SO, would you buy that COPO with most of its original sheet metal but non-original motor, or would you buy the one with all replacement sheet metal ("rebody") but the original motor, trans, etc.??

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I'd put more of a priority/importance on having THE factory original matching drivetrain. That's the heart of the car and what contributes to the driving experience. That's what these SS and COPO specials are all about.

I've read the phrase here about "putting the tag and engine in a base 6-cylinder body....". Pretty much all of the time, the bodies weren't differentiated between on a COPO, SS, or plain low-optioned car. The shells all went through Fisher body, got welded up the same, painted the same, and then were put together. The bodies are the same, and the difference was in what's bolted to them for options.

Is a "rebody" less of a sin if the drivetrain was transferred to the shell of another COPO/SS/whatever than a body that wasn't originally built that way?

More rhetorical questions that no one will ever agree on. It's a shame the whole financial side distracts people from appreciating the art, machinery, and driving experience aspect of the cars. I thought about that today as I took my Nova out for a cruise. No matter what I did, I just wasn't able to read any numbers on the firewall while rowing that Hurst through the gears and feeling that big block push me back in the seat. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Amen, What he said. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

If you remove the tag and place it on another car - Mike Tyson cell mate. If a Supercar is found and not restorable unless the tags are swapped - no guarantees in life, lifes a bitch, what rule sais it's Ok to swap it, because its rare and worth $, NOT.
If you have the firewall section and tag attatched from the factory and re panel the car - that is OK in my book, not fraud. Be honest about it.
You can put any drivetrain option you want in all these cars but don't mess with the VIN/TAG, pretty simple in my mind. Can't be a special provision because of money ( like people with big cash getting special treatment when they break the law).
Heck, if you live in Woodland and drive a Chevy with an airplane motor in it its still within the rules....

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Allen, I disagree, and this is MY silly analogy of why....

The day Elvis Presley (or pick your favorite celeb) was born, there were 100 other newborns just like him born at the same hospital and cared for by the same people... that doesn't make every kid born in the hospital that day an Elvis Presley... just like it doesn't make every Camaro body that rolled off the line at Norwood "the same" as one that became a COPO or Yenko, Motion, etc...the fact they all originated in the same place doesn't mean jack squat... I don't buy into this idea that it doesn't matter what body is behind the VIN and trim tags... that's as important as the driveline IMO...maybe more so. If I were to buy into your way of thinking, then every clone car, 6 cylinder, or 307 powerglide car out there is one set of tags away from becoming a "real" COPO or Yenko supercar... It doesn't work that way... A COPO might have had 7 engines and 6 transmissions in it over its "lifetime", but its still a COPO or a Yenko... but it doesn't matter how many L72's you've stuffed between the fenders of a car that was originally a 6 cylinder, its never gonna be a supercar. And thats not to say a non-supercar isn't fun, fast, or enjoyable to own and enjoy... It just is NOT a supercar and never will be. I don't care if you rebody a supercar with non-supercar body that was originally painted in the same color, with the same interior color and trim level, built on the same day by the same guys, one car down the line... its still not the right thing to do.You can't rebody a supercar without losing the car's soul. I'd take a real car with zero original drivetrain over a fake car with every mechanical part added from a real one.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

2000 year debate........... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/headbang.gif

Ken https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

I see where you are going with your post,but you have to remember that all but a very few of the most valuable supercars actually have what could be considered a "restorable" skin.Basically all thats left out there on the unrestored supercar market are rusted out hulks that are being pulled out of the mud in junkyards,and hacked up race cars that have nothing but their original firewall,roofskin and doorjambs intact.People are still trying to restore these cars.We arent talking about some cars with a few litle rust holes and some dents,we are talking about cars that are damaged so bad that they often dont have enough structure left to them to allow the doors to be opened without the body breaking in half.You can replace any single part of a car's body and it is O.K.,but of you replace all of those parts together it is wrong.You mention these supercars as if they were people,but they are not.Unlike people,cars can exist as any sort of comglomeration of parts,and here are some scenerios.

Car one is a "restored original".The original car had extensive rust and collisoin damage which is typical of most 35 year old cars.During the repair of this damage,the car had it's entire florpan replaced with a chinese repop,it had both full quarters replaced by NOS pieces,it had the rear frame sections replaced by chinese repops,it had the trunk floor and dropiffs replaced,it had the roofskin replaced,it had the toeboards replaced,the tail panel and both inner and outer wheelhouses were also replaced,it had both full rockers replaced with full repops,and it had the upper cowl area replaced at which time the VIN and cowl tag had to be reattached onto the replaced upper cowl box.When the job was done,the only original sheet metal on this car would be the lower portion of the firewall,the litle scrap of sheet metal around the trunk weahterstrip,and the rear kickup panel.This is pretty typical of the restoration involved on a 35 year old car.When it is done,the expert craftsmen who performed the work will make sure that every spot weld and every swath of overspray is as close to original as possible.

Car number 2 started out as an equally damaged supercar.Instead of replacing each part one at a time,the owner extracted the few useable parts from his original car and discarded the remainder into the dumpster{which is where all these parts from the first car ended up}.Now the difference is that instead of spending 2 years and endless dollars trying to recreate what GM made 30 years ago,he goes on a seatch for an original unrestored and rust free 6 cylinder car.He then atached all his remaining parts to the 6 cylinder body,sends it out to be cleaned and then refinishes it just as was done in car #1.Now however instead of having to guess how many spot welds held the inner and outer wheelhouses together,and having to try and replicate the spacing of each weld,and replicateing the brushmarks of the seamealer,he has a car with parts that actually left GM 35 years ago in assembled form.

So which car is a more acurrate depcition of the original.

Car number 1 is totally legal since each panel was replaced one at a time despite the fact that most of the parts werent even made in American let alone 35 years old.Car number 2 is a fraud and should be banished to the junkyard where it should be shredded before it can ever possible confuse anybody into believing it is original.

Of course in a perfect world,all restored cars would be time capsule survivors that required nothing but a fresh coat of wax and some armorall to be in show winning condition.In reality,all but about 10 percent of all the original supercars were in the condition of the cars mentioned above.Maybe in the opinion of some people,these car should both be destroyed to make the true survivors more valuable,but as long as it is O.K. to replace any single piece on one of those survivors,you will have a hard time telling the owners of cars 1 and 2 that they cant replace all of the peices at the same time.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Without question its car #1. Its got lots of replacement stuff, but its still the car you started with... Car # 2 is a rebody, and the original car is in the dumpster...what you made with car #2 is basically a clone with supercar tags.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

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Car # 2 is a rebody, and the original car is in the dumpster...what you made with car #2 is basically a clone with supercar tags.

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A rebody, yes, due to replacing that magic firewall part of the shell, but how can it be called a clone if it has the original engine/tranny/rear that corresponds with the VIN?

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

I call that a Transplant.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Its a clone because the car assigned that Vin, trim tag, and drivetrain are not with the car they came with, they are in a 6 cylinder car.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

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Its a clone because the car assigned that Vin, trim tag, and drivetrain are not with the car they came with, they are in a 6 cylinder car.

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With that sort of logic, it almost would seem that a "clone" of what was there originally would be when a replacement/restamped non-original drivetrain is installed in that original body. That's a replication of what was originally there, but isn't anymore. Blow the motor, replace it with something that appears to represent what was there, it's now a clone.

They didn't put the shells together any differently between a 6 cyl. Camaro/Nova and a big block SS or Yenko Camaro/Nova...... A shell is a shell is a shell..... It's that engine option on the order form and engineering bill of materials that made that VIN represent something special and drove all of other special hardware that accompanied it.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

I agree with Joe, car #2 is simply a clone - the soul is gone. The original drivetrain is very important to me, second only to the original car's 'soul'. I don't care how much sheetmetal was replaced, as long as the orig. shell was used. The scenario of using the 6cyl body to dup the spot welds etc.. is simply a copout to save money. You save the bad cars with extra amounts of work/money because your hearts in it - not because of the payoff.

I might add that richschmidts %'s are bit off, it's more like 10% of the supercars are in this bracket as opposed to 90%. I have personally seen many unrestored supercars that were in very good condition. I also know of many more that are doing just fine, are unrestored, but the owners just want them left alone. So, there are quite a number of unrestored supercars out there that have never seen a muddy dump! I'm not tellin you where though https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Maybe clone isn't the best choice of words since it at least has the correct tags on it, but the real car is gone and its definitely a rebody or "tag car". "Transplant" even works for me. I still will not ever be conviced a rebody using a non-supercar body is as good or better than fixing the REAL car... but do whatever makes you feel good... My personal definition of a rebody is pretty simple, and I will not ever be conviced that all you need to have a supercar is a set of tags and/or some driveline parts... but I guess some feel thats all you need.. I'm glad at least some people feel the same as I do .

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

I know of a Yenko chevelle with another Yenko chevelle's drivetrain in it, what does that make it - a double yenko https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif My head is starting to hurt!

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Hey....everyone's opinion will be different like in every car deal....but the facts need to be on the table come sale time. . Personal opinions too but a "firewalled" car seems wrong when the true intent becomes transfering the identity of one vehicle to another. . Starting from a cowl section with door posts or more is a different story as the true identity remains intact (and the true identity cowl isn't leftover as spare parts like a firewalled car would). . Certification being the original question, it would depend on what's been certified. . Isn't Ed's service just that the Vin is one of the cars and no inspection of what the car is now? . A person who's willing to put all the restoration, early accident or survivor facts on the table should still be able to be certified but allowing these facts to be known to more than a buyer and noted as such with the certification provided. . Again personal opinions here....not endorsed or affiliated with this station or any person living or dead....operators are standing by....have your charge card ready....opinions may change at midnight tomorrow. ~ Pete

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

I agree with you...

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

If I had a choice I care more about an original sheetmetal car. Whether it a Z/28, COPO Yenko etc. I believe the first buyer started out buying the car he saw on the show room floor. The main attraction was the Z/28 or SS package (style trim) then I think the performance parts played into it. If you bought a Yenko in 1969 and warranty replaced the motor in 1970, would that bother you more than if a body shop put your drive train in a 1969 donor car in 1970 after you totaled the car? The donor car really isn't the car you bought in my opinion. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

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Whether it a Z/28, COPO Yenko etc. I believe the first buyer started out buying the car he saw on the show room floor. The main attraction was the Z/28 or SS package (style trim) then I think the performance parts played into it.

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So you are saying that people paid extra to have the look vs. the performance?

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

Well I think for me it was the look of the 69 SS nova that I liked. Than we sat down and went through the options. Obviously I didn't want a 307 2 barrel car but I liked the looks of the nova.

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

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I know of a Yenko chevelle with another Yenko chevelle's drivetrain in it, what does that make it - a double yenko https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif My head is starting to hurt!

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Hey Marlin...right there with you! My head started hurting about 30 posts ago... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/frown.gif

Re: Rebodied cars and do they get certified
 

It's a great subject...